Bugs VS Gray Knights

[Chris Copeland]

Troops, I am looking for a little advice from the Hive Mind. Yesterday I played my first game against Gray Knights. My Genestealer army did fine against all of the units they came across... with one exception: my HQ (a Dakka-Tyrant with 3 Tyrant Guards with lash whips) were wiped out in one round of combat by Draigo and his Paladins. It was brutal! The price they paid for their temerity: they lost one Paladin and Draigo took one wound. Ouch. That one unit dominated the corner of the board they were in! They seemed as deadly in their shooting as in close combat.

The game ended in a draw but I can't help but think it would have gone the Imperium's way if Draigo and the boys had been in the center of the battlefield instead of way over to the flank! That unit seemed unstoppable. The rest of the army seemed as crunchy and tasty to my bugs as any other Space Marine army.

My questions to the community is this: how do we deal with this Draigo/Paladin madness? Bugs aren't the shootiest army out there else I'd go with a "stay back and shoot 'em" approach. My first thought is to deal with them the same way I deal with Abbadon: kit out 9 Warriors with lash-whips and boneswords and send them after them... but crossing the ground afoot towards Draigo and the Paladins seems iffy at best... perhaps a screen of Termagaunts running out ahead of my lash whip/bonesword Warriors... or a unit of Zoanthropes (those always seem to be fire magnets).

Thoughts? Ideas? Bugs, how are you dealing with this new kid on the playground? Cheers.

[Xas]

your instinct was right:

paladins and draigo basically are just another unit of termies.
FNP and 2 wounds with only a 5++ or 4++ do not last long if you are beeing cut to pices by (poison-rerolling wounds) boneswords.

it would also be good if you'd get a tyranid prime into the warriors so you keep hitting them on 3+ (they are ws5!) in melee. add a tyrant's paroxism and a gaunt shield to grant cover (only needed vs their psycannons as the rest is onl ap5) and absorb the assoult (so you can guarantee an assoult on them).

just remember that draigo as he is an IC can only ID one warrior with his force-weapon (normal FW rules) and not simply makes his weapon cause ID by passing the lds test. Also remember that the paladins ahve to test on their lds for force-weapon shenanigans and you ahve shadow.

[Chris Copeland]

They were using some kind of banner (I believe it is called the Banner of Psychic Shennanigans) which automatically turned their force weapons on, by-passing my Shadow in the Warp entirely.

[Xas]

another thing that makes the squad even more expensive.

you are allmost reaching a point territory where it is worth to LANCE them with zoantropes

[DarkLink]

If your opponent is smart, he'll have a couple psyrifle dreads, which eat warriors alive. Against a good GK list, warriors should never live long enough to do any real damage to the GKs.


Genestealers with FNP are your answer. Lots of genestealers, lots of ymgarl genestealers, tervigons to give them fnp, and then a little fire support to back them up. Also anything with really really long charge ranges are nice, though gargoyles will bounce off most GK units.



paladins and draigo basically are just another unit of termies.

Only an idiot would ever take the Apothecary upgrade on Paladins. It is not worth it. Ever.



just remember that draigo as he is an IC can only ID one warrior with his force-weapon (normal FW rules) and not simply makes his weapon cause ID by passing the lds test. Also remember that the paladins ahve to test on their lds for force-weapon shenanigans and you ahve shadow.

Not that important with the Brotherhood Banner. The banner turns assault with most 'nid multi-wound models from an iffy proposition to a main objective.



another thing that makes the squad even more expensive.


Go read the wikipedia article on force multipliers. Against 'nidz, Brotherhood Banners are extremely useful. You get far more benefit out of that small expenditure of points than you would elsewhere. 'nidz are almost singlehandedly the reason I've started taking the brotherhood banner standard. The fact that it's very useful against most other armies is nice, too.

[Xas]

If your opponent is smart, he'll have a couple psyrifle dreads, which eat warriors alive. Against a good GK list, warriors should never live long enough to do any real damage to the GKs.


Genestealers with FNP are your answer. Lots of genestealers, lots of ymgarl genestealers, tervigons to give them fnp, and then a little fire support to back them up. Also anything with really really long charge ranges are nice, though gargoyles will bounce off most GK units.



giving such crappy advice while criticising other's advice is a bad combo which does neither help the OP nor earn you any credit.

against that "good GK list" of yours the ned army can do only two out of the following while it would need to accomplish all three:

a) have your tervigons survive without useing catalyst on themselves
b) have your tervigons near enough to cast catalyst on the stealers
c) have your stealer close in fast enough to arrive in any meaningfull numbers (any smart person should remember that stealers strike last against any competent oponent thanks to terrain and force weapons cut trough FNP as well as armor).

[DarkLink]

giving such crappy advice while criticising other's advice is a bad combo which does neither help the OP nor earn you any credit.

?

I posted something I though was helpful, in the expectation that there would be an intelligent and mature discussion that everyone could learn from. Instead I got this. You wouldn't happen to post on warsewer, would you? Or 4chan for that matter.




against that "good GK list" of yours

Are you implying that psyrifle dreads aren't good? Because if you are then we can toss out any advice you give right out the window, because it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.

A GK player literally has to work hard to design a list that wouldn't be better without the inclusion of 2-3 psyrifle dreads.





the ned army can do only two out of the following while it would need to accomplish all three:


a) have your tervigons survive without useing catalyst on themselves
b) have your tervigons near enough to cast catalyst on the stealers
c) have your stealer close in fast enough to arrive in any meaningfull numbers (any smart person should remember that stealers strike last against any competent oponent thanks to terrain and force weapons cut trough FNP as well as armor).

Finally, something productive.

a) They only need to survive for a turn or two, and you should be giving the GK player lots of other things to shoot at. Gks also don't have much high-ap firepower, so ignoring waves of little bugs to torrent a wound or two onto a tervigon is probably a bad idea.

b) String out the genestealers a bit, and move the tervigons forward. You should be able to get catalyst for the first turn or two without any trouble without really slowing down the genestealers. Plus, holding back most of the squad lets you control your assaults and avoid terrain, helping you negate the lack of grenades.

c) Genestealers are pretty fast, and the bulk of the GK army only has a 24" shooting range. You should be able to get into combat pretty quickly.

As for grenades, well, sucks to not be space Marines I guess. Try not to assault into cover. What else do you propose? Paladins/Terminators will still likely chop up anything that assaults them, but Strike Squads and Interceptors are fair game. I6 or not, genestealers will probably eat them. Either way, warriors will never make it into combat with enough mass to sustain their attack, and most other units are very vulnerable to force weapons or other GK tricks.

Anyways, if there's one thing I know, its the GK codex. GKs are not afraid of Warriors, because GKs have the tools to shoot them to death. Some warriors might survive to make it into combat, but by that time there won't be enough to accomplish their intended goal.

GKs are, however, afraid of genestealers in close combat. And since most GK firepower is limited to 24" range, you can get said genestealers into combat fairly quickly between infiltrate and fleet. If you don't want them to dissapear to storm bolter fire, you need to give them feel no pain. The fact that Tervigons are awesome warrants their inclusion. Beyond that I don't know the 'nid codex well enough, but that is the state of the issue from the eyes of a GK player.




And ymgarl genestealers are very, very good against GKs. GKs operate outside of vehicles, and don't have the bodies to clog up every place they might be able to pop up. Even a single squad can tie up or kill significant portions of the GK army, and keep the player constantly looking over his shoulder.



Now, if you know for a fact your opponent isn't taking psyrifle dreads and you feel like tailoring your list, go ahead with the warriors with lash whips and boneswords.

[Chris Copeland]

I love the idea of using Ymgarl Genestealers against GKs! I hadn't used them in a long time because every time I'd fielded them in the past my opponents swamped terrain pieces with troops as soon as they saw the Ymgarls on my list. It hadn't occured to me that GKs just don't run enough troops to do that!

By the way, why shouldn't Paladin squads have Apothocaries? I'm not a GK player so I am just asking out of curiousity. It seems like feal no pain is worthwhile. Again: just curious.

One of the problems I have with the Bug codex is that so much of it's cool stuff is found in the Elites section. I have to drop a unit of Hive Guard or Zoantropes to add units such as Ymgarls or Venomthropes. I kind of like Venomthropes but I've never fielded any because they seem to be a poor trade for Zoanthropes.

Cheers! Keep the input coming. I really appreciate it! Copeland

[DarkLink]

First off because the apothecary upgrade is 75pts. Second reason is that I've never lost a single Paladins to small arms fire. Every dead Paladin I've ever had killed was the result of either power weapons or high AP weapons, which negate FNP anyways.

When the codex first came out I was dubious of the apothecary upgrade at the beginning, and after a couple months of play my experience has pointed towards the upgrade not being worth it.



And I will clarify that I don't know the 'nid codex terribly well. I couldn't write a full list designed specifically for killing GKs. But a unit of Ymgarl genestealers are absolutely worth it against GKs, a couple units of genestealers provide something that the GK player must to kill before they reach combat, and Tervigons handing out FNP are annoying as heck when the majority of GK shooting doesn't ignore FNP. Warriors, on the other hand, will get hammered by psyrifle dreads and you'll take very heavy casualties as you try and get to assault. One failed cover save kills one warrior just as easily as one genestealer, and you can get a lot more genestealers.

[Chris Copeland]

I played my second game against GKs yesterday and came face to face with the bullsh!t known as "sanctuary." Holy Moses! I've only played two games against this army but I'm beginning to question how dedicated to balance the folks at GW are! Sanctuary screwed up every charge I was able to get against the Gray Knights. For some reason, Bugs have no way to deal with rough terrain in 5th Edition. My opponet passed every psychic test he was asked to (despite Shadow in the Warp). He also used Psycotropic grenades to use my own Hive Tyrant's charge against me. I was tabled by turn five having only killed a Dreadknight.

Ah well. I will adapt and learn. I'm not ready to jump on the "Gray Knights are Invincible" bandwagon just yet. Time to look into the "synergies" of the bug army... cheers...

[Archon Charybdis]

Grey Knights definitely aren't invincible, but it's fair to say the deck is highly stacked against nids in that match up. GK are really better suited to killing Nids than Daemons with their preponderance of force weapons, strong mid-range shooting, and powers like Sanctuary to capitalize on Nids lack of grenades. Speaking as a person who doesn't know the Nid dex that well, it's hard to think of a solid counter for Draigowing, though lots of Genestealers does seem like a good place to start.

[plawolf]

I don't know the nids dex well at all, but what about a deathleaper/lictor or two? They still reduce leadership don't they? Makes psy powers that much harder to get off with SoTW and all.

GK also rely heavily on their HQ choices as force multipliers. I think you have tasted what they can allow the rest of the army to do in your second game.

Consider charging a suicide squad or two in and allocate all their attacks against the librarian. They are not that tough, so you should be able to kill him off reliably enough, and then its open season on the rest of his units.

Although that is obviously not advisable against Draigo as he is tough as nails.

Unless the guy is playing full Draigo-wing, just thrown some gaunts to tie his Paladins up, and murder the rest of his army. Although beware of Purifiers, as sanctifying flame can be pretty brutal against poor armor saves hoard armies like Orks and Nids.

[Tynskel]

i completely disagree with not taking feel no pain on the Draigo. I watched Draigo's squad march across the board an take almost no wounds.

Granted, my army died to 20 bolter wounds in round 1, and I was the one with instant death weapons...

However, one thing you need against the paladins is lash whips.
Also, you need to understand:
Draigo + 6 terminators + wargear is almost 800 points. You should never engage a unit like this without a likewise (or more) points.

One tactic is to lock down the unit with something cheap. Then engage with big units with lashwhips.
The big thing is that you need to knock down their initiative so your weapons can tear them apart. If not, then you need to slam them with as many toxin sac genestealers as you can muster.

If you can knock down their initiative, a pair of screamer killers will make short work of draigo's squad. You'll just need to put out a crap ton of wounds to kill draigo, after that.

[Tynskel]

I don't know the nids dex well at all, but what about a deathleaper/lictor or two? They still reduce leadership don't they? Makes psy powers that much harder to get off with SoTW and all.


the deathleaper only effects the HQ ld. Paladins are still Ld9.

Really, you need to knock down their initiative so you can go first.

[Tynskel]

GKs are, however, afraid of genestealers in close combat. And since most GK firepower is limited to 24" range, you can get said genestealers into combat fairly quickly between infiltrate and fleet. If you don't want them to dissapear to storm bolter fire, you need to give them feel no pain. The fact that Tervigons are awesome warrants their inclusion. Beyond that I don't know the 'nid codex well enough, but that is the state of the issue from the eyes of a GK player.


And ymgarl genestealers are very, very good against GKs. GKs operate outside of vehicles, and don't have the bodies to clog up every place they might be able to pop up. Even a single squad can tie up or kill significant portions of the GK army, and keep the player constantly looking over his shoulder.


Grey Knights are space marines- they do not fear anything.

Everybody in the game don't like Genestealers in close combat. They are possibly one of the cheapest strong cc units in the game.

I do agree with the assessment on Ymgarls. However, you are detracting from nids ranged anti-armor, which would be nice to take down Psy-rifle dreads.

Grey Knights are a hard nut to crack for bugs.

[plawolf]

the deathleaper only effects the HQ ld. Paladins are still Ld9.

Really, you need to knock down their initiative so you can go first.

Well it seemed like most of your troubles came from his Librarian powers, and a deathleaper would help to make it harder for his Librarian to get any powers off.

[thecactusman17]

My questions to the community is this: how do we deal with this Draigo/Paladin madness?


The easiest, smartest way to deal with this particular unit is to completely ignore it. He's expended 500-700 points on this thing. If you can just avoid them, you've completely defeated them more than merely pulling them off the table will ever do.

After you roll up the rest of his army, turn everything around (only if you have to) and focus on this thing until it's dead. just keep shooting him from every angle, if you have to get into combat try to get as many separate units in there with him so that he has to divide his attacks. Lance zoanthropes will really help you in shooting here. If you can forcibly kill Draigo himself a lot of their killing power will disappear.

If he has dreads of any persuasion, be sure to knock them down with rending attacks. Knights have a measly 5+ invul save and dreadnoughts are not used to dealing with S4 units that can pen them. They are also unlikely to be kit out for returning power weapon attacks, so you'll still get saves all over.

-edit- if you can, cast paroxysm. That will help you immensely. And not just against Draigo!

[plawolf]

The easiest, smartest way to deal with this particular unit is to completely ignore it. He's expended 500-700 points on this thing. If you can just avoid them, you've completely defeated them more than merely pulling them off the table will ever do.

After you roll up the rest of his army, turn everything around (only if you have to) and focus on this thing until it's dead. just keep shooting him from every angle, if you have to get into combat try to get as many separate units in there with him so that he has to divide his attacks. Lance zoanthropes will really help you in shooting here. If you can forcibly kill Draigo himself a lot of their killing power will disappear.

If he has dreads of any persuasion, be sure to knock them down with rending attacks. Knights have a measly 5+ invul save and dreadnoughts are not used to dealing with S4 units that can pen them. They are also unlikely to be kit out for returning power weapon attacks, so you'll still get saves all over.

-edit- if you can, cast paroxysm. That will help you immensely. And not just against Draigo!

Im sorry, but that is some really terrible advice there mate!

Draigo is going to be the single hardest to kill model in the entire unit, if you focus all your attacks on him, even if by some miracle you kill him off, you are going to loose combat, badly. And IIRC, a lot of bugs are fearless, so you are going to be taking a heap of fearless wounds on all squads if you multi-charge his death star.

Seriously, what you have just described is a GK player's wet dream come true, since normally he would be the one desperate to get multi-charges off to thin your numbers.

Draigo is also fearless, so if you really want to kill that squad off, you should be focusing on his mates, and hope to win combat and smack Draigo with a boatload of fearless wounds.

What more, Draigo is just a combat monster and does not buff the squad he is with beyond casting hammerhand, which is hardly a huge deal. I think you are mistaking him for a Librarian. Draigo is just a CC powerhouse, and what buffs he gives to the army via grand strategy happens at the start of the game, and does not get nullified if you kill Draigo.

Suggesting someone rely on rending to deal with dreadnaughts is just asking for trouble, since at S4, those units can't even scratch the paintwork otherwise.

Also, FYI, GK comes with army wide force weapons as standard, so I have no idea what you are talking about regarding them not normally packing power weapons.

[thecactusman17]

Im sorry, but that is some really terrible advice there mate!

Draigo is going to be the single hardest to kill model in the entire unit, if you focus all your attacks on him, even if by some miracle you kill him off, you are going to loose combat, badly. And IIRC, a lot of bugs are fearless, so you are going to be taking a heap of fearless wounds on all squads if you multi-charge his death star.

Seriously, what you have just described is a GK player's wet dream come true, since normally he would be the one desperate to get multi-charges off to thin your numbers.

Draigo is also fearless, so if you really want to kill that squad off, you should be focusing on his mates, and hope to win combat and smack Draigo with a boatload of fearless wounds.

What more, Draigo is just a combat monster and does not buff the squad he is with beyond casting hammerhand, which is hardly a huge deal. I think you are mistaking him for a Librarian. Draigo is just a CC powerhouse, and what buffs he gives to the army via grand strategy happens at the start of the game, and does not get nullified if you kill Draigo.

Suggesting someone rely on rending to deal with dreadnaughts is just asking for trouble, since at S4, those units can't even scratch the paintwork otherwise.

Also, FYI, GK comes with army wide force weapons as standard, so I have no idea what you are talking about regarding them not normally packing power weapons.

You play marines dont you? You sound like a marines player. And that is fine. But marine tactics do not typically work for Xenos races. Note my first statement. IGNORE the overpriced, ridiculously powerful squad and the attached character, and instead kill everything else. If at the end you must kill that squad, divide his attacks so as to maximize your ability to out wound him. If you can kill Draigo, do it and remember that just because he its fearless doesn't mean his unit is, he can still run.

[DarkLink]

Good luck trying to ignore it. A good GK player will never let you pick off his units without exposing yourself to the Paladins or his other units firepower. Remember, GK armies can have a very small footprint, and Paladins have a big enough threat range to make getting around them before all your transports are wrecked difficult.

And don't forget that Paladins have guns. Lots of guns. Just because you're not in charge range doesn't mean they can't hurt you badly.

Paladins deathstars are highly effective because they put the opponent between a rock and a hard place. On one hand, the enemy can put their whole army into the Paladins and get hammered, then finished off by the rest of the GKs. On the other, the GK player can prevent you from reaching combat and can effectively control your movement by forcing you to avoid his Paladins. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


There are some armies that will have a lot of trouble dealing with Paladin deathstars, and no army has anything that can easily act as a hard counter, with the sole exception of Land Raiders full of THSS Terminators. Some units like 'nid Warriors with lash whips, or DE dark lance spam armies, do have the tools to deal with Paladins specifically but have severe weaknesses that the rest of the GK army can ruthlessly exploit.


That said, you have to deal with Paladins in some way. Try and demobilize the rest of the GK army, then slow down the Paladins. With luck, you'll be able to keep the GK player on his half of the board, and then you can hope to tie, or figure out a way to deal with the Paladins or whatever else might be the biggest threat.

[Tynskel]

I do have to admit, if you charge the Paladin DoOm star squad, you gotta hit it with all the fight you can muster. It is an expensive monster, and must be treated rightly so.

It is all about the Synergies: As a Tyranid player, lash whips are your friends. Pyrovores dying in CC with lashwhip = priceless.

The flying monster (for the life of me, I am forgetting what it is called), IF it survives long enough (probably not with the Psydreads), modifies Initiative, which removes the Halberd's ability (due to the GK FAQ). So, think about things like raveners with rending claws + that flying beast (of course, + lots of something elses!).

[DarkLink]

And raveners are beasts, right? So they can rush into combat and have better chances of making it before getting shot apart.

[Tynskel]

Yeah. Again, both of these unit a vulnerable to psydreads. But that's besides the point. Everything is vulnerable to something, but the idea with tyranids is to have you army work well together and present so many targets that your opponent has difficulty determining what to target.

[DarkLink]

Well, raveners are faster than warriors, so they're less vulnerable to shooting.