Imperial Guard Tactics Questions

[Grenadier]

Tactics Question One:

I've long been a fan of Ogryns and only have been able to use them in battle twice.

The first time they went to war with Commissar Yarrick. And assaulted Abaddon the Despoiler with 10 Berzerkers as his back up. I fully expected them to all die in the first turn. My usual opponent's buddy joined in is a three way fight with his Chaos army which I had only fought once. And from what I understand Abaddon is quite a bit of nastiness.

To my surprise in the first turn the Ogryns wiped out every single Berzerker. While not losing any of my own men. Unfortunately in the subsequent turns Abaddon killed them all as well as Yarrick.

In their second battle they charged, with Yarrick at their side, a single Space Marine chapter master and slew him with ease. Again not one was lost.

Is Yarrick a wise choice to add to this squad? I primarily stuck him in with them for lack of having anything else worthwhile to attack him to. As my infantry tend to be static defenders I felt Yarrick's abilities were best suited for the offense and who better than my 5 Ogryns? On the first turn they and Yarrick are an impressive hand to hand unit. But it does appear that after this turn they begin to fare poorly.

Being a Guard army there's little in the way of hand to hand and this little combination is basically all I have in my army for hand to hand. I tend to keep them close to my HQ as trouble shooters. Any thoughts on how I should use them? Or Yarrick?

Tactic Questions 2:

Leman Russ Squadrons:

I have three: one has 2 tanks while the rest have 3. The smaller squadron often hang around as a supporting unit to other elements of my army. Such as providing support to my Basilisks or my Baneblade. Both of them are identical tanks.

However: I have a mix of tanks in my other two squads. Focused on one tank as a squad leader. I have a Demolisher, Vanquisher, and Executioner along with three Leman Russ tanks. One is a squad formed by the Executioner, Demolisher, and a Leman Russ. They are more or less an assault squadron. Every one has sponsons. These are my infantry killers though they do have hull lascannons in case of armor.

Conversely the other squadron consists of the Vanquisher as my squad leader with two Leman Russ tanks with plasma sponsons. This is my anti-armor squadron with the Vanquisher playing the lead role as tank killer. Though all three tanks have lascannons as well. The two with plasma sponsons are intended to hammer any infantry who attempt to challenge them.

Do you think these squadrons are set up efficiently? I don't like making any single squadron so specialized that they can't deal with some situations if they occur. Though the two main squadrons have clear roles it seems wise to me they should be able to deal with any situation.

Tactics Question Three:

I'm enamored with the Basilisk and will on occasion field them in a team of three. They're brilliant. But I'm wondering: is the Manticore a better choice? I noticed in the codex you cannot buy Manticores in a squadron so fielding three of them would force me to sacrifice other heavy support. Still, their weapon seems great. And I think 3 of them might make a superb heavy support choice. I do not currently own even a single Manticore so I am seeking your advice and thoughts on them.

Final Tactics Question:

Since the Guard rely mainly on massive numbers of infantry is it really wise to pump a lot of troops into my army? As it is I have two infantry platoons. One is Cadian, the other Krieg. Neither of which are a maxed out platoon. My Cadian platoon is larger and contains all the allowed heavy weapons teams and specialist squads. My Krieg platoon is smaller and I tend to use the combined squad rule with them. How does that work if you have a heavy weapons team in your infantry squad by the way? I fill out my other troop choices with the veteran squads. Personally, I feel veteran squads are a better choice: because you can take carapace armor, still have a heavy weapons team in the squad, plus a number of special weapons. From a financial standpoint it'd be cheaper for me to field 6 veteran squads instead of 6 infantry platoons. What do you think of using them only as your troop choices?

[blackarmchair]

1) By and large I wouldn't recommend Ogryns. It seems like you've had some luck with them but they simply cost too many points for what they do. If you must run them, Yarick isn't a bad buy as he solves their leadership issues.

2) I would almost NEVER squadron Russes. It - in fact - only hurts them, there is nothing gained by squadroning and much lost: immobilized results = wrecked results, you have to keep an already slow vehicle in coherency with each other and they must fire at the same target. Again, if you must squadron them keep it to only tanks of the same kind, that way they fulfill the same role.

3) Manticores are pretty damn good it seems. I confess I have no experience with them but I see them fielded competitively with fair regularity so there must be something to them. Hopefully others have more to say on this one...

4) IG troops are pretty simple. Take 1 platoon. Take 3-5 Infantry squads with grenade launcher/autocannon if you like and you should almost always blob them into one squad. Then take 3 Vet squads with 3x Melta and "Demolitions" and take 1 Vet squad with 3x Plasmaguns, a plasma pistol if you want and carapace. Boom done.

As per the question about how heavy weapons work in a unit, what exactly are you asking?

Hope I've helped!

[Shadoq]

Greetings,
Ogryn....If you can make it work for you, more power to you. I personally don't run any Ogryn in my all infantry list.

Leman Russ Squadrons....never. Squadron rules are so stupid it is a crying shame. A general all around good setup is Demolisher with PCs or Leman Russ with PCs. Vanqusher,meh.... Vendettas or Manticores are just as useful if not better.

Manticore vs. Bassie. Manticore every time. Even though the Manticore only has 4 shots, most of the time those 4 missiles will do plenty of damage, especially against hordes.

My issue with vets when I ran a MechVet army was that it is relatively easy to pop their transport and when that happens, it is easy for those guys to get mown down. Perhaps it is just my play style but I've enjoyed playing an all foot list with 3 full platoons and company command squad more than I did mech vet.

[gensu11]

I run Yarrick with 4-5 Ogryns. It is expensive, but effective. They definitely hold their own, and give my army enough of a close combat punch that my opponents can't ignore them. And, if your a fan of them, don't worry about the points. Every game they will cause some kind of damage, and your games will be more fun then if you tweaked those points somewhere else if you like the unit so much.

As for Russ Squadrons. I only use them if I have to. Sometimes the extra firepower on a target is nice, but more often than not it is overkill, and having to be subjected to squadron rules sucks. Typically, if I run a squadron, they are basic Russes, with no sponsons, cheap as possible, and they aren't my primary heavy support option.

[w7west]

Tactics are what you use when you don't have artillery.

[Iceman]

1) Ogryn are fun although expensive and somewhat hit or miss with their results. I find them rather expensive but from what you describe I don't have the impression your battles are point constrained.
2) I appear to be in th minority but I am ok with taking Russes in squadrons. I usually run them in identical pairs so I can use them for particular purposes. For instance a pair of vanilla Russes for general anti infantry, a pair of Vanquishers for antitank. The ability to field lots of armor outweighs the squadron disadvantages in my opinion.
3) I tend to take regular Leman Russes rather than a Basilisk. I just like the tougher armor. I feel the same way about Manticores as I do about Ogryn.
4). I like veterans, especially in a Chimera. I typically take one regular platoon, not maxed out, to give me lots of troops in a hold the line or base of firepower formation and use the veterans in Chimeras as mobile attack units.

[Denied]

I played a game not too long back against a friend and he was playing a lawlsy list of IG Demolishers and Ogryns..... he ate my Grey Knight terminators for breakfast and used the bones of my strike squads to pick the flesh between his teeth.

I had never played Ogryns before they are tough little *******s.

I was playing stupid ... and drunk btw but still those things are funny.

[thecactusman17]

Manticores can definitely work well. It's not the limited ammunition, it's the D3 shots per round at S10 AP4. So in reality, your one tank is bringing more like 8 shots instead of 4. Typically, i and my opponents have the game decisively won or lost by turn 4, so these things are a great investment in that scenario.

[Grenadier]

I gotta confess: I just adore the Ogryns. I don't have much experience using them. And doubt I'd every buy more than the 5 I have since they cost a pretty penny. But as a man of small stature I have a fondness for giants. Plus, I fell in love with them in the Dawn of War games. "Ooh! Ooh! We got da.....thing!" There's just something endearing about dimwitted giant brutes. So my main reason for wanting them simply was their coolness. A secondary reason was for lack of anything decent in hand to hand combat. And since my main opponent plays Dark Angels and has a love for close combat I figured at least one unit to deal with a major threat was in order.

I do have a single Valkyrie. It doesn't impress me. I actually did a little VDR conversion to make it a 40k version of the almighty A-10. But most of the time I use it it's just a basic Valkyrie that has never earned its points in a game.

When it comes to Russ squadrons I absolutely hate the current rules system. It's ridiculous to force tanks in a squad to shoot at the same target! The only thing I liked about the changes to the vehicles is they're more survivable than in the past. But then they hurt them more by making it so if you moved you could fire one main and then something strength 4 or lower. And seriously, aside from the odd stubber what are you going to have on a tank that is strength 4? It renders heavy bolters useless if you plan to move.

I figure I'll go with some Manticores instead of the Basilisks. And eventually add some of those tanks which fire the chemical cloud. Since my usual adversary is Space Marines my army has more or less been geared to fight them. In fact, they're the only army I've battled beside Chaos. Oh...to take on the Nids....

The first thing I bought when I decided to go Guard was the Russ. And then I used built a nice armored company using those rules which has the doctrines in them. Is that list still valid by the way?

I use two other special characters:

Straken and Nork. I am unsure if it is rules legal though: Straken is my company commander complete with his little squad of veterans and advisors. It says you can take bodyguards but I take Nork instead. So is that rules legal. Sadly, these guys are a static unit who stays close to a few heavy weapons teams. Issuing orders and providing a good fire base. So I never have gotten to see Straken and Nork in action.

[Wu-Jin-Arn]

I've run Ogryn a few times just for fun. They performed about like i expected, not good enough for their points. Adding Yarrick only makes the points vs effectiveness problem worse. I want to like Ogryn. They're cool thematically, the fluff is cool, they offer something unique for Guard... unfortunately they're just not good enough for their point cost. But if you're playing casually, by all means go for it.

Nork is also just horrible for his points cost.

If you want melee capability in a Guard army, there really arent many effective options. Powerblobs, but that's about it.

Don't underestimate squadrons of Russes. I find it's not very effective for the variants that need to move upfield to get into range... but for "sit in the back and shoot" variants like the vanilla Russ, squadroning isn't necessary a deal breaker. Also, given the ease of cover saves in 5th edition, being able to pound the same unit with 2-3 blasts and force them to mass allocate simultanious wounds can be very handy. No pulling casualties after the first blast to reduce the number of hits from the second, etc. Anyway, some argue that squadrons are crap, other that they're good... just go with whatever works for your playstyle.

I wouldnt mix/match Russ variants in the same squadron though.

I've got a Vanquisher I use fluffwise for the company command tank. It's fun and fluffy but never earns it's point value. Seriously, never. Vanquishers are just way too expensive for a dinky two anti-tank shots at a single target. Pask only makes the problem worse.Tank hunting in 5th edition is about massed melta-fire, not single-shot long ranged freeming.

With the specialist artillery in the 5th edition IG codex, I'd argue that the Basilisk is effectively obsolete. That huge minimum range for indirect fire is awful. Yes, I know it can fire directly. And the min range is so high that you're almost always going to be firing it directly. That being the case, why not pay +25 points for a stripped down Leman Russ, which has just as much firepower and dramatically more armor. It's a shame they took away the 100 points but no indirect fire option.

Manticores are just silly good, even for their 160 point pricetag. You're frontloading your firepower into the first 4 turns of the game... but if you havent got the game won by then, it's not the Manticore's fault. I've had nothing but good results with Manticores.

Basilisks vs Manticores, point for point, the Manticore is going to make the Basilisk just look silly.

Strakken is pretty badassed in conjunction with a couple of powerblobs. Shooting orders early game, then his Counterassault aura if/when they reach your lines. But I'd resist the urge to go buying him bodyguards (especially Nork), melee-oriented advisors, etc. He's pretty hoss for a Guardsman but you're not going to get around the fact that he's still leading a small squad of 5 guys. Buying him medics, bodyguards, Nork, standards, etc, is just going to jack the point value of his squad up dramatically... without adding "oomph" appropriate to that point cost. When I run him, it's usually just him and 4 melta (sometimes plasma) retinue in a Chimera.

I find in the 5th edition codex there are lots of things like that. Can upgrade this, that, the other... but the upgrades aren't often worth the point investment. Don't hesitate to run things stripped down to the basics, then use the leftover points to run "more".

Your mileage/playstyle may vary. :)



Oh, and the armored company rules are not tournament legal anymore.

Doctrines were also in the old codex, hence not legal anymore.

Also you don't seem to understand how the Lumbering Behemoth rule for Leman Russ tanks works. They shoot more than in the old rules, not less. You might want to read over it again.