Historical Parallels With The Empire And The Real World

[fantasard]

The following article is from 'Black Grimoire', a sister site to fantasard podcast. It supports upcoming podcast episodes (4 in total throughout July) that look at The Empire:

http://black-grimoire.blogspot.com/

http://fantasard.blogspot.com/


As any Empire player in Warhammer Fantasy knows, the forces of the Empire are based around a core of State Troops. Working class men (and no doubt some women too, Reg) who strain every sinew fighting for the survival of the Empire and the future of the human race itself offer a very impressive sight, and seeing a large force of Empire troops on the battlefield is truly magnificent. But are there any historical parallels between the Empire and the Real World?

A brief look at the forces of Emperor Karl Franz (the Warhammer Emperor) tells us that the basic design of the army is based firmly in the early to middle part of 17th Century Europe. In many ways they reflect the period of the Thirty Years War (1618-1648). This War raged across Europe and pulled in forces from Sweden, Spain, France, Bohemia and many others. There is also a nod in the direction of the English Civil War, with the fancy design of the Empire horse in particular.

The core of troops fighting during the real 17th Century was the Pikeman, with detailed instructions surviving to this day regarding how to get the best out of a unit of them. The Spanish ‘Tercio’ formation of the 15th and 16th Century had altered the way of battlefield tactics, with a mix of swords and later Musketeers, but it was the Pike that dominated many a battlefield, and some Kingdoms were lost over the ‘Push of Pike”. The more interesting Halberd, or ‘Swiss Voulge’, was the next escalation in weapon design. This weapon had an axe head as well as a sharp point, and was used two handed. It was a cheap weapon to produce but like a Swiss knife it had a variety of uses. It could be used to push, as the Pikes had done, or hook cavalry off of their mounts, or be used as a slashing weapon, and if reinforced with a metal sheath (as many were) it was great at blocking sword attacks. These heavy weapons get a first round bonus in Warhammer to reflect this advantage!

It was the coming of ‘black powder’ weapons that eventually wore down the usefulness of the Pike and the Halberd, a facet reflected in Warhammer, where the Empire Pikeman or Halberdier is a cheap option, but not necessarily the best one, for a budding Empire General. The musket of the 17th Century was an unwieldy beast at best, often requiring a support for the heavy barrel. The time taken to load and fire was long, and in the heat of battle miss fires were a constant worry, and of course the barrel was not yet rifled so their range and accuracy was limited. Nevertheless, the Musket had a profound impact on the way warfare was carried out and a volley of lead ball could decimate the most courageous foe, so greater care was needed when maneuvering troops around the field, something that Warhammer recreates very well.

While on the subject of black powder, the appearance of Cannon and Mortar on the battlefield in the late middle ages had changed the face of warfare, and in the Warhammer World, this is reflected in the strength of the artillery train. Historically cannon were used to soften up the enemy, and the noise and smoke could be as frightening as the exploding cannister or shot! The cannons used in the 17th century were more reliable than their Warhammer counterparts, which are very prone to catastrophic explosion at the most inopportune moment. During the sieges of the Thirty Years War, cannon and small mortars were used to bombard forts and stockades with great success. No Empire commander should ignore the black powder weapons produced by the great forges of the City State of Nuln, including the more fantastical weaponry that is available.

No Warhammer Empire army would be complete without the heroic Imperial Knights, thundering along in close formation ready to crash into the enemy in a mess of hooves, blood, and sharp steel. The use of Cavalry in the Thirty Years War was just as important. Apart from the role of Cavalry as a lightly armed, fast reconnaissance unit, (recreated in Warhammer with the ‘Outriders’), cavalry were the aristocracy of the battlefield, They could run down a retreating unit, use the sheer shock of their horses to break stubborn foes, and out maneuver the enemy on the flanks. This multi-tasking element is well covered in the range of horsemen available in Warhammer Fantasy, and providing you do not charge a line of cannon (yes I mean you, Lord Cardigan) the Empire Knights are great fun on the tabletop.

The Warhammer World is not meant to be an exact replica of central Europe circa 1650, but many of the uniforms are very close in design to those of Gustavus Adolphus, the great Swedish leader and his Catholic foes. Feathers feature highly, and some of these feathers can reach epic proportions. The bright multi coloured uniforms and banners also conjure up the battlefields of Breitenfeld and Nordligen. The range of Archers, Crossbows, Handgunners, and Swordsmen is vast, and when readied for battle they make a breathtaking site on the tabletop. I would guess it would only take a little ‘modding’ to produce a set of rules that would enable the recreation of many historical battles, or simply use the existing historical rules from Games Workshop . In any case, simply playing Warhammer Fantasy battles gives a great historical feel. To see an Empire Elector Count go into battle is to see Adolphus, Tilly or Waldstein take the field once more!

[Necron_Lord]

The fact that the major human army was modeled on Early Modern Europe with blackpowder weaponry and cannons has always made me like the Warhammer Fantasy setting. I was a gaming geek in the 80s, and that really set it apart from the rest. Palladium Games had some Wolf-like humanoids that resembled the Roman Empire which was pretty cool, but most were your standard medieval setting. Bretonnia fills that niche for Warhammer.

I agree, the time period for The Empire was an interesting one from a distance (I can do without the grime, disease, poor nutrition, etc, thank you), and Warhammer allows one to experience that time with monsters and magic as well. It also made me want to learn German so I could spend a summer in Germany in college, which I did. Of course, now that I'm a Skaven player, I wish nothing but bad things to happen to those wretched, surface-dwelling man-things! ;D

[fantasard]

The fact that the major human army was modeled on Early Modern Europe with blackpowder weaponry and cannons has always made me like the Warhammer Fantasy setting. I was a gaming geek in the 80s, and that really set it apart from the rest. Palladium Games had some Wolf-like humanoids that resembled the Roman Empire which was pretty cool, but most were your standard medieval setting. Bretonnia fills that niche for Warhammer.

I agree, the time period for The Empire was an interesting one from a distance (I can do without the grime, disease, poor nutrition, etc, thank you), and Warhammer allows one to experience that time with monsters and magic as well. It also made me want to learn German so I could spend a summer in Germany in college, which I did. Of course, now that I'm a Skaven player, I wish nothing but bad things to happen to those wretched, surface-dwelling man-things! ;D

Skaven? They're myth, aren't they?

:/

Team Fantasard

PS - 4 Episodes in July all Empire focused...

[condottiere]

Speaking from the Tilean perspective, the Old World/Empire is a mixture of Late Renaissance and Early Baroque in feel and imagery; heavy cavalry is plate armoured gendarmes, spears are not pikes (and I would know), halberds are second wave frontline weapons for when things get bogged down, da Vincian designs seem anachronistic by the time of the Great Armada and outside a few specialized units nurtured by the French with varying degrees of effectiveness, only the English and the Welsh could effectively field a long bow force.

[eldargal]

Not quite, the Empire is based on the Holy Roman Empire 1450-1550, not thirty years war period. Landsknechts, huge firearms, puff and slash etc. There are other inspirations there too but it is primarily 1450-1550 HRE. The artillery of Warhammer has much more in common with the artillery of the early fifteenth century as well, being cosiderably more unreliable. Though interestingly enough earlier artillery was in some cases more advanced, they had breech loading cannon that weren't seen again until the nineteenth century. Frightfully expensive to produce of course, which was the reson why they didn't re-emerge until industrialisation made them cheaper to mass produce.

[condottiere]

Artillery

Iron is cheap and easier to manufacture than bronze. Breechloaders were made out of iron, but were under powered, because the same amount of gunpowder couldn't be packed in due to the danger of rupture by both the barrel, and the part where they stuck on what could be described as thermos flask containing gundowder and cannon ball, and therefore was underpowered.

In comparison, because bronze was cast as a single piece, and was more flexible, it could contain greater explosive force, while still being lighter in construction. That's why, once they managed to figure out how to cast iron cannons properly, they tended to be confined to naval or positional use only, bronze cast favoured for field artillery, despite the fact they tend to be more expensive by a factor of three or four.

[eldargal]

Quite, the point is the innovation of the period in experimenting with such things fits in more with the Empire than the relatively conservative (technologically) 17th century. The breech loader was more advanced and had far more potential but they didn't have the manufacturing or quality control capacity to mass produce it. Like the wheellock, a superior mechanism to the flintlock in every respect, but requiring more maintenance and skill to produce so it didn't take off as a rank and file weapon.

[fantasard]

Interesting stuff guys, although I still see a LOT of parallels with the English Civil War...New Modal Army Pikes? Cromwell cavalry looking very much like Outriders, Hangunners taking the role of the musketeers at Marston Moor, even the Cannon, although slightly more advanced. All this in 1642 onwards....

I take the point about the costume...very 15th/16th century dandy:)

The main point is how good an Empire army can look on the board!:D

[condottiere]

Artillery

If you want to discuss innovation, Dwarven guns are far more interesting, whether field or naval.

The field piece looks like a short barreled, rifled, breechloading howitzer, possibly iron but I'm more inclined to believe constructed from steel, I'd also wonder if they weren't using shells instead of balls (despite the fact that shells don't tend to bounce).

The naval versions on their ironclads might also be breechloaders, though there are no visual clues.

[UltramarineFan]

I think it's this parallel with real world history that can make warhammer fantasy really appeal to us history buffs. The fact that you can then throw in monsters and magic just makes it even better imo!

[fantasard]

Ultramarine Fan, you are so right! We have been studying and teaching History for 30 years plus, and Warhammer combines the history with a load of fun...monsters, Pigeon Bombs and the like!:)

[BrokenWing]

Taking my historian hat off for a moment, this is my least favorite aspect of Fantasy. As a huge fan of creative fiction and a writer by hobby, I *hate* the laziness of just cutting and pasting historical nations and peoples into a Fantasy setting and calling it your own. I've gotten over it a bit over the years, but it's definitely not my favorite part.

[eldargal]

GW have done it rather well though. How many people even realise Ulthuan = Britain? Bretonnia isn't just France either, it is a mix of French and Arthurian mythology, the Empire is more than just the Holy Roman Empire with magic, the Lizardmen certainly aren't just reptilian Maya etc.

[BrokenWing]

Honestly everyone I've talked to about it has seen the parallels plain as day. What isn't taken from history is generally taken from standard Fantasy, with the exception of Chaos. There are some interesting spins that make elements of the Fantasy fluff unique, but I really wish they had put more effort into the background when they made it.

It's not as if I don't really enjoy Fantasy, but I'm not about to say that the fluff is my favorite part of it. That said, Fantasy fluff is alot better than the fluff for some other games.

[condottiere]

Ulthuan is Atlantis and Melnibone; the rest are obvious, though I'll mention that Tilea is late Renaissance Italy, Orcs are football rowdies, the Dwarves are Nordic-Saxons and the Chaos Dwarves supposedly represent politically incorrect stereotypes, like bankers and hedge fund managers.

[Necron_Lord]

GW have done it rather well though. How many people even realise Ulthuan = Britain? Bretonnia isn't just France either, it is a mix of French and Arthurian mythology, the Empire is more than just the Holy Roman Empire with magic, the Lizardmen certainly aren't just reptilian Maya etc.

I will have to disagree about the High Elves = the British. Britain has been a small fry, relatively speaking until the middle of the 18th century and it lasted for about a century and a half, and had seen its heyday by the time of the second Boer War. No other country has come close to having that sort of power since. The only similarities I see is that it is insular, has a world-spanning maritime empire, and had overseas colonialists rebel and go it alone. What made Britain a power was the industrial revolution, which is more suited to the Dwarves, naval supremacy, and financial supremacy. The elves have been the most magical of beings (except for the slaan) and lost their power through Civil War and a hubristic war with the Dwarves. Britain lost its power by cosmopolitan business and financial practices, and an over-extension of military commitments to protect the overseas investments of the cosmopolitan 'British' investors.

I think it is like what you said, there is a lot more going on than some of the more obvious inspirations one sees with a casual look.

[Chronowraith]

GW have done it rather well though. How many people even realise Ulthuan = Britain? Bretonnia isn't just France either, it is a mix of French and Arthurian mythology, the Empire is more than just the Holy Roman Empire with magic, the Lizardmen certainly aren't just reptilian Maya etc.

I've always likened the Brettonians to Chretien de Troyes Arthurian legends moreso then say Sir Thomas Malory.

I do think you hit the key here. GW certainly took components of historical cultures across the world but they didn't do so lock stock and barrel. Likening the Empire to the Holy Roman Empire is a vague generalization at best and one that should only ever be used carefully. I think the most clear-cut example would be the Tomb Kings and even they possess some pretty important differences.

The importance of the Nile River in ancient Egypt doesn't really translate for the Tomb Kings. Certainly there were rivers in Khemri but none of the fluff seems to put as much importance on any of them that is obvious in the hieroglyphs at Karnaak, Thebes/Luxor, etc.

Indeed many cultures are represented in the world that do not have armies such as Araby, Nippon, and Cathay.

Personally, I would like very much to see some of these other cultures represented on the tabletop one day.

[quinn]

Honestly everyone I've talked to about it has seen the parallels plain as day. What isn't taken from history is generally taken from standard Fantasy, with the exception of Chaos. There are some interesting spins that make elements of the Fantasy fluff unique, but I really wish they had put more effort into the background when they made it.

It's not as if I don't really enjoy Fantasy, but I'm not about to say that the fluff is my favorite part of it. That said, Fantasy fluff is alot better than the fluff for some other games.

It could be argued that the inspiration for Chaos was influenced by Michael Moorcock. I was a gamer and a Fantasy fan back when Citadel miniatures and GW got started and a lot of their fantasy stuff was obviously taken from D&D (whose players were their main customers), who had taken from Tolkien, who had taken from myth, etc..but there wasn't a whole lot of original Fantasy work available back then. I do see Fahfred and the Grey Mouser influence in the Gotrek and Felix stories of course, and GW continues to liberally 'borrow' ideas from myth and popular culture, but I think they have done a reasonable job of creating their own world for us to game in.

[Necron_Lord]

It could be argued that the inspiration for Chaos was influenced by Michael Moorcock. I was a gamer and a Fantasy fan back when Citadel miniatures and GW got started and a lot of their fantasy stuff was obviously taken from D&D (whose players were their main customers), who had taken from Tolkien, who had taken from myth, etc..but there wasn't a whole lot of original Fantasy work available back then. I do see Fahfred and the Grey Mouser influence in the Gotrek and Felix stories of course, and GW continues to liberally 'borrow' ideas from myth and popular culture, but I think they have done a reasonable job of creating their own world for us to game in.

Chaosium had Stormbringer back in the day, which was role-playing in the Elric novels by Michael Moorcock. I believe that they (the Elric heroes and deities) were in an edition of Deities and Demigods as well, but were pulled when Michael Moorcock found out about it. I could be wrong, but I do have that recollection for some reason.

[eldargal]

See what I mean about them doing such a great job people don't realise?:P That came straight from a former senior design team staffer.


I will have to disagree about the High Elves = the British. Britain has been a small fry, relatively speaking until the middle of the 18th century and it lasted for about a century and a half, and had seen its heyday by the time of the second Boer War. No other country has come close to having that sort of power since. The only similarities I see is that it is insular, has a world-spanning maritime empire, and had overseas colonialists rebel and go it alone. What made Britain a power was the industrial revolution, which is more suited to the Dwarves, naval supremacy, and financial supremacy. The elves have been the most magical of beings (except for the slaan) and lost their power through Civil War and a hubristic war with the Dwarves. Britain lost its power by cosmopolitan business and financial practices, and an over-extension of military commitments to protect the overseas investments of the cosmopolitan 'British' investors.

I think it is like what you said, there is a lot more going on than some of the more obvious inspirations one sees with a casual look.


Ulthuan is Atlantis and Melnibone; the rest are obvious, though I'll mention that Tilea is late Renaissance Italy, Orcs are football rowdies, the Dwarves are Nordic-Saxons and the Chaos Dwarves supposedly represent politically incorrect stereotypes, like bankers and hedge fund managers.

[BrokenWing]

You know what it is more than anything? It's the names. Taking inspiration from history is nothing new and that wouldn't bother me, but seeing names like "nippon" and "sylvania" does the opposite to me of what I think it's supposed to. Instead of seeing a cleverly placed cultural wink, I see a reason to roll my eyes. As with 40k though, I write my own army fluff and do rather enjoy doing that and linking my army with the armies of my friends. I love the Fantasy game and I don't hate the fluff, but I do have problems with it and no amount of clever twisting is going to make them go away.

[Faultie]

GW have done it rather well though. How many people even realise Ulthuan = Britain?Oh? Then what is Albion?

[eldargal]

Celtic Britain.

[condottiere]

You know what it is more than anything? It's the names. Taking inspiration from history is nothing new and that wouldn't bother me, but seeing names like "nippon" and "sylvania" does the opposite to me of what I think it's supposed to. Instead of seeing a cleverly placed cultural wink, I see a reason to roll my eyes. As with 40k though, I write my own army fluff and do rather enjoy doing that and linking my army with the armies of my friends. I love the Fantasy game and I don't hate the fluff, but I do have problems with it and no amount of clever twisting is going to make them go away.

It's lazy, but they're literary cues, just as modelling the miniatures with selected aesthetics in hair styles, hats and costumes are visual cues. You say Elf, Dwarf or Orc, and everyone knows what to expect. Empire implies a predominating culture, Bretonnians France with an influx of British culture (in this case the Arthurian one), though Tilea gives no clue whatsoever, unless you remix the letters.

Tomb Kings, while not really appealing to me, shows an interesting train of thought, as to how far the cult of death can evolve. While it might not have figured in the initial drafts, the Nile is life, making everything desert gives a visual lack of it, rather than death itself.

[BrokenWing]

Literary cues can be done well, or you can use names like "Sylvania" and "Nippon" and "Cathay." Two of those names aren't even an adjusted spelling of the actual word. Better examples of them doing it well are the Lizardmen, where the names and iconography (and map) give you the cues, not something like calling them "Mayapan." Tomb Kings were also done better, Khemri instead of "Egyptia" or something equally lazy. Chaos is a mixed bag, you have some done well, and then you have some that were really badly done. The new Orc book made me roll my eyes with their new special character "Atilla da hunta" but at least it wasn't just straight up "Atilla da Hun."

The obvious ones make me roll my eyes, the ones that are more well done I actually appreciate the effort they want through to not use badly adjusted, or not even adjusted, names.

But it's cool, it's not like I'm offended by someone liking what they did, I'm just not going to pretend that I liked what they did. It took a combination of getting burnt out on 5th edition 40k for awhile, loving the 8th Edition rules set and finding a way to play Chaos again (Fantasy) and actually enjoy it for me to really get into Fantasy. I'd dabbled before, but the fluff always turned me off. Chaos however, is Chaos (at least in Fantasy) and I love me some Chaos.

[fantasard]

A really interesting discussion, good to read.

We are going to focus on much more Game vs History content in our podcasts.

We are going to be looking at more WHFB, World War One (Paths of Glory), The French Indian War (Wilderness War), The Reformation (Here I Stand), The 100 years War (Warriors of God)....plus material on The American Civil War and the War of Independence....

We are looking forward to it!

Team Fantasard

[BrokenWing]

I'm glad you brought the subject up actually. As a Historian, it's almost impossible for me to miss these things and I enjoy talking about them, even if I don't always like that they're there.

[eldargal]

Though Sylvania just means 'land of forest' so its not a big issue, for me anyway. Nippon is though, never liked that. One reason I like the Empire so much is while it is clear what its inspiration is, it is very much its own entity, not just 'fantasy HRE'.

[Verilance]

While you may hate it now, the original fluff of WHB was very much tongue in cheek, for example McDeath and there was another module I remember seeing about Dwarves in the "new world." Unfortunately for me it has been over 20 years since I read this stuff so my memory is a bit hazy.

the way I see it seriousness (such as it is) came much later, back then the fluff didn't matter so much

[NonComPoop]

**there was another module I remember seeing about Dwarves in the "new world." Unfortunately for me it has been over 20 years since I read this stuff so my memory is a bit hazy.***

I think you may be thinking of "The Magnificent Sven" that came in the 2nd ed. Warhammer rulebook in 1984. It was totally Heart of Darkness with dwarves.

Ilike the fact that the warhammer races are built around a certain historical aestetic somehow it feels comfortable, like putting on an old pair of boots. With fantasy I have always found the best art and movies tend to be those that borrow heavily visually from history. Those that don't always seem cheap and a bit goofy.

[BrokenWing]

Though Sylvania just means 'land of forest' so its not a big issue, for me anyway. Nippon is though, never liked that. One reason I like the Empire so much is while it is clear what its inspiration is, it is very much its own entity, not just 'fantasy HRE'.

The worst ones to me are Nippon, Cathay and Ind (think that's the spelling?). It's one thing to adjust the name, it's another thing to copy and paste it from a history book. I mean Cathay? Really? Though I have to say, I'd like some army books for those guys.

[fantasard]

Was it not the case that Orcs (or Goblins) sprouted from...mushrooms?

:/

[BrokenWing]

They do that in 40k, I know that for sure. I also know Black Orcs were made by Chaos Dwarves.

[Chronowraith]

The worst ones to me are Nippon, Cathay and Ind (think that's the spelling?). It's one thing to adjust the name, it's another thing to copy and paste it from a history book. I mean Cathay? Really? Though I have to say, I'd like some army books for those guys.
Cathay is vague enough that your average person on the street might miss it. Nippon is quite blatant and so is Ind (I do believe you are correct with that name).

I honestly do not remember how Orcs reproduce in fantasy. I know in 40k they are fungus as was previously mentioned.

[miteyheroes]

Personally I love the puns and in-jokes in WFB names. The old Dogs of War book was my favourite GW publication ever, just had me giggling like a loon. Every single thing was a spoof of Renaissance Italy, and it was glorious.

Re: the chap who said Khemri was a good name and better than just calling it 'Aegypt'... Actually it's another blatant steal. One of Egypt's names in hieroglypics is km.t (probably pronounced between 'Kemet' and 'Khemet'), its equivalent in Demotic is Kmi. This basically means 'the black lands', possible a reference to the soil, rich in alluvial deposits. Khemri is not a long jump at all. But I like that!

Also, the High Elves = British thing... The relationship between High Elves, Dwarfs and Orcs is meant to be a spoof of the poncy arty Southern English, tough mining Northern English and rowdy Cockneys. That's where their underlying characters come from. Ask any of the senior GW crew- I was chatting to Mark Bedford about this last UKGD at the Warhammer Forge stand. The High Elves also have the classically English post-colonial view of "we used to rule the world, but now we're just reduced to a tiny island..."
But although the High Elves are Southern English, I don't think it's right to say that Ulthuan is Britain. Ulthuan is Atlantis. Albion is Britain (remember the map from the Albion campaign- that was almost as great as the Dogs of War book! Isle of Wights indeed...)

I must say, the Dark Elves don't get the nicest portrayal. They're slave-keeping evil rebels who fight and steal from the original inhabitants of their continent? Not the nicest spin on American history...

[condottiere]

Dark Elves seem to be a mix of Drow, Arthurian Mythos (if you assume that Mordred behaved himself, and Morgana bided her time) and the more decadent aspects of Melnibone.The aesthetic, especially of the Witch Elves, sort of remind me of the magazine 2000AD (and for some reason the Termight Empire).

[BrokenWing]

Khemri is no where close to as bad as Cathay and Nippon. Yes you can almost sort of if you turn the word sideways and hang it in the wind extrapolate it out of the original Hieroglyph. However, that was sort of my point. That's an example of a literary cue done well, it's not just the actual name of the place, it's a modified version of a rather obscure name for it that looks almost nothing like the original. Cathay, Ind and Nippon on the other hand don't share this at all. Cathay and Nippon especially are just the actual words, Ind is just short for Indus.

As for the Dwarves/High Elf thing...you'd have to live in England to even notice that, to be perfectly honest.

[fantasard]

Interestingly, was it not Tolkien who used the Saxon word for Foreigner 'ORC' and Forst dweller 'ELF" in his books? Was the phrase "Middle Earth' used by the Saxons to describe England?

I don't know if this sheds any more light on the discussion, but it is fascinating to think that such a rich heritage of language is still used in a tabletop game!:)

[BrokenWing]

I think both Orcs and Elves actually can be traced farther back than Tolkein, though probably not in that form.

[fantasard]

Oh yes, both terms are Anglo-Saxon, so they pre date Tolkien by quite a few years!!!

[BrokenWing]

That's what I'd heard, but wasn't certain. Anyway, I don't mind that sort of useage, I think that's a good use of a literary cue (if you can consider something that old and unlikely to be well known a cue).

[miteyheroes]

Interestingly, was it not Tolkien who used the Saxon word for Foreigner 'ORC' and Forst dweller 'ELF" in his books? Was the phrase "Middle Earth' used by the Saxons to describe England?

I don't know if this sheds any more light on the discussion, but it is fascinating to think that such a rich heritage of language is still used in a tabletop game!:)

Orc has roots in the Latin word orcus (another name for Pluto/Hades, the realm and god of the dead), either coming to us via the Anglo-Saxon word orc ('demon' or 'evil spirit') or via the Italian orco ('giant, ogre').

Elf is of Germanic-via-Anglo-Saxon origin, and they were originally meddling creatures with powerful magic. Smaller than people, they're tricksters (and more normally evil than good- often faeries and elves are the names of the good and evil versions, respectively).

[BrokenWing]

Now we know and knowing is half the battle.

:D

[condottiere]

As I recall it, Tolkien got Orcus from Milton, and Alf from Norse mythology, who seemed divided between the Light ones that seem similar to how he liked to portray them, and the Dark ones, who were smiths and rather short.