Future of Finecast Article

[wittdooley]

Shamless plug for an article I just wrote for my blog.

Can be found here: The Future of Finecast (http://imperialathenaeum.blogspot.com/2011/06/hobby-future-of-finecast.html)

Comment away. I have the following articles in the works: regarding the direction I'd like to see Privateer take, a GenCon Miniature Preview and a look at playing 'dead' miniatures games. I'd love input on which you'd like to see first.

[Melissia]

Oh look, another person attacking everyone who disagrees with them about finecast.

[wittdooley]

My goodness, Melissia. Did you even read past the opening paragraph? That's the ONLY place I make any reference to other people, and quite frankly, I think it's fairly justified.

EDIT: And seriously, after re-reading the article, my slight comments are hardly inflammatory. I make a concerted effort in every article I write to be fair and offer up an objecting viewpoint. I do that here. Perhaps you should also troll the ESPN forums, where people there also have trouble discerning between an editorial (OPINION PIECE) and a news story.

You really need to get over yourself.

[oggs]

I enjoyed your article. Thought it was well written, and in no way attacking anyone. Keep it up my man.

[Melissia]

My goodness, Melissia. Did you even read past the opening paragraph? That's the ONLY place I make any reference to other people, and quite frankly, I think it's fairly justified.No, because the first paragraph put it as another blog of one group bashing another.

First impressions etc etc. Dislike me for not bothering to read the rest if you want, but you still put that there, right in front, establishing the tone for the rest of the article, and making me roll my eyes and skip over the rest because the tone was very obnoxious and frankly flame-bait.

[wittdooley]

No, because the first paragraph put it as another blog of one group bashing another.

First impressions etc etc. Dislike me for not bothering to read the rest if you want, but you still put that there, right in front, establishing the tone for the rest of the article, and making me roll my eyes and skip over the rest because the tone was very obnoxious and frankly flame-bait.

Except it isn't. The opening line allows that it's a polarizing subject. It doesn't establish the tone as such either.

Not reading the rest makes you lazy and completly ignorant in any comment thereafter.

[JxKxR]

I actually just got done converting up one of my friends Finecast Incubi into Drazhar because most of the other ones had the bubbles. So he called up GW and they are sending more so I got to play with it!

Now what did I find about the finecast? It's ok once you really get down to cleaning it up and that took me about an hour, but I didn't use the fins that go on the incubi's back because they were way too britle. Now with the bubbles the hour long clean up and not using the cool fins because they are to brittle I have to say that I actually liked the new finecast. Drazhar turned out awesome and he is by far the conversion I am most proud of and I could never have done it with metal.

Oh and decent article fella.

[miteyheroes]

Good article.

[Lane]

Oh look, another post (blog) with severely biased opinions.

Yes I did read it and you all but said anybody that dislikes F...cast is an idiot.

[wittdooley]

No, I didn't.

I discussed:

The ease of conversion
The cleanliness of it
The fact that is IS NOT HAZARDOUS, despite how much people want to say it is. It. Simply. Is. Not.
The fact that GW still has problems to fix with it, but that they've fixed production problems in the past.

Again, IT IS AN EDITORIAL. Editorials are based on opinions, and inherently carry some sort of bias. There is no difference here. Good editorials address both sides. I address both sides.

I don't feel bad about about calling people trolls that continue to espouse the false fact that Finecast is dangerous. They are ignorant, or simply unwilling to accept that fact.

@ Mitey, Oggs, JX. Thanks.

[murrburger]

Just read it. Good article, and well written.

I'll keep checking your blog for anything new.

[Deadlift]

Nice read matey,:D

I do however have a question.

With the head swap, how easy was it and were the original heads damaged in the swap ? I ask because I am interested in using the same models as my BA honour guard.

Also in reference to finecast itself, I personally am wondering how long it will take for companys like privateer press to adopt this change from metal to resin. I have begun to look into warmachine and the idea of finecast style warjacks instead of metal across the range I think would encourage more people to try their game too.

My personal experience of finecast is not so good, both models I bought had to be replaced, however GWs service in fixing my problem was 100% helpful both times. The ordering guys on the end of the phone are a good bunch, even if they do insist on calling me chap all the time :)

[fuzzbuket]

nice artical!

[wittdooley]

Thanks! Two I was unable to get off unscathed. One was connected to the back part of his armour, so I had to hack it up quite a bit. They were pretty standard helmets, though, so I wasn't super concerned. It took some really quick trimming. I did use the dremel on it, mask on and everything, and it didn't produce any dust. I think the material is so soft that the friction caused by the dremel heated it up enough to not create a dry particulate. Took maybe 5 minutes in total.

Privateer, I think, is making an effort to do that. They have the plastic Jack kits now, and the Battle Engines are utilizing resin for the main portions of the body. They've also had some resin kits available from their website for some time now (a really nice Sorcha, in particular) However, their plastic is still in its early stages. There's been a lot of very present mold lines on the jacks; most aren't an issue, but I always seem to have a problem with the portion that goes over some of the fine shoulder detail. They're still new to the plastics game, so I expect later plastic kits to clean this up. I certainly encourage you to take a look at that 2 player starter when it comes out; it's a great value, and should be a wonderful introduction to the game.

I actually received my first Finecast model that had a problem this past weekend for my B-day. It was a Kurt Helborg, and there was a bubble on the chest piece of his horse which completely wiped out the fine detail there. In other news concerning that, Finecast is going to make those two part metal Cavalry kits so much easier to use. If you remember, they used to be hollow. With the finecast, the mold is full, and it was a lot easier to get the model flush without the need for any green-stuffing.

It's funny; I've been assmembling and painting some Rackham (RIP) models lately, and how do I wish that I could get these models in a resin. If you're not familiar with the Rackham models, they're absolutely gorgeous, quite possibly my favorite line, but you are pretty much required to pin everything because of the weight of the metal and how large the pieces can be.

[daboarder]

I dunno mate....

You've got some very good points particularly the ones relating to conversions. That being said your first and last paragraphs, well they rub the wrong way.

For example

"based primarily on hearsay and conjecture"

Not really, most people by now have seen finecast in person and can evaluate their own decisions.

"The vocal minority on any issue is usually the most vociferous, and that remains the case here"

That line above in particular always sets warning bells ringing as soon as someone starts arguing that they usually have an opinion they'll die for, its one of the fallacies perpetuated in our hobby.

I haven't made up my mind about fine cast yet but its good to see posts regarding the use of finecast in conversions as thats what I'm primarily interestead in. I'll put it this way.....When I had to cut off the heads of those models way back when they were first release it took me AGES and I had to rebuild the hoodish parts at the back.

[Kovnik Obama]

Yes I did read it and you all but said anybody that dislikes F...cast is an idiot.

Which means he didn't say it. So why bring it up?


First impressions etc etc. Dislike me for not bothering to read the rest if you want, but you still put that there, right in front, establishing the tone for the rest of the article, and making me roll my eyes and skip over the rest because the tone was very obnoxious and frankly flame-bait.

Okay. I dislike you. You sound like an idiot who gives in to emotional reactions when, without changing anything to your stance, without even laying of the snark sauce we are all so addicted to, you could have WORDED OUT the reasons for your disagreement. But as of now, you have successfully qualified yourself as an intellectual non-entity. Go back to b!tching about your WD Codex, you poor thing who had her thrust abused by GW by PROVIDING YOU A CODEX!?!?!? Fuuuuuuuuuu... The long-defunct DE in me really REALLY want to go Urien Rakarth on your asss...


Oh, and Gud Artikel, Dooley ^^

[Melissia]

Which means he didn't say it. So why bring it up? Might as well have done so, with how dismissive he was of everyone's opinion that disagreed with his own. Even I don't get dismissive.

[Kovnik Obama]

Might as well have done so, with how dismissive he was of everyone's opinion that disagreed with his own. Even I don't get dismissive.

Why would he have to even acknowledge other's opinions in his own??? You can simply say (random exemple) ''I like capitalism'' without that opinion being devaluated because you didn't state ''but some others prefer communism''.

You also infer that he intently avoided to shares other's opinions, which honestly you cannot know. Further, you state that you never do so. Care to revise every single proposition you ever made to make sure you also provided a counteropinion, and provide me with the verbatim of your entire existence? Cuz... I mean... that's a bit of a bold statement...

[Melissia]

Why would he have to even acknowledge other's opinions in his own??? You can simply say (random exemple) ''I like capitalism'' without that opinion being devaluated because you didn't state ''but some others prefer communism''.

Hey dude, turn around. The point is over there, ninety degrees to the left.

Try this instead: Posting "I like pies! Here's how you make a really good one!" would be fine on its own, people may not agree but it wouldn't be flamebait. What he posted was essentially "I like pies, and anyone who doesn't like pies is only using hearsay and conjecture! Here's a way to make good pies.", which is blatant flamebait.

[Deadlift]

Hey dude, turn around. The point is over there, ninety degrees to the left.

Try this instead: Posting "I like pies! Here's how you make a really good one!" would be fine on its own, people may not agree but it wouldn't be flamebait. What he posted was essentially "I like pies, and anyone who doesn't like pies is only using hearsay and conjecture! Here's a way to make good pies.", which is blatant flamebait.



Lol, if it was intended as flamebait ( I just didn't see that though ) then it would appear you got caught hook, line and sinker :)

[Gir]

Oh look, another person attacking everyone who disagrees with them about finecast.

Oh look, another person attacking everyone who disagrees with them about finecast.

[Kovnik Obama]

Try this instead: Posting "I like pies! Here's how you make a really good one!" would be fine on its own, people may not agree but it wouldn't be flamebait. What he posted was essentially "I like pies, and anyone who doesn't like pies is only using hearsay and conjecture! Here's a way to make good pies.", which is blatant flamebait.

If you had red the blog, you would have seen the comment were he acknowledges the miscasts, and calls them ''unnaceptable''. He also acknowledges that he HELD A MISCAST IN HIS OWN HANDS. Now how is that ''only'' conjectures??? His opinion was that it was ''PRIMARILY'' conjectures. THERE IS NOTHING DISMISSivE ABOUT THAT.

He puts it in light of the fact that on 10 finecast models he held in his hands, only one had such a problem, whereas the nature of internet communications might give us the impression that there is far more frequent problems with these.

and this is the net, every reactions are ''based primarily on hearsay and conjecture''... there's nothing wrong with calling the DOOM cycle for what it is. This is flamebait to you??? Well you just validated my opinion of you being an emotional trainwreck.

::removed by Duke:: tisk tisk!

[Melissia]

If you had red the blog

But I didn't, because the first paragraph put me off. Because he is a bad writer :P

Kinda like a book that gets put off because it starts slowly, but people argue it'll get better after. Sure, it might... but I'd still have to slog through the bad stuff too.

[Kovnik Obama]

Kinda like a book that gets put off because it starts slowly, but people argue it'll get better after. Sure, it might... but I'd still have to slog through the bad stuff too.

Yeah... but you know how dickish that guy looks when he then try to give an opinion on the same ground as those who have read the entire book? Like the guy who diss on Tolkien because he couldn't get past Bilbo's party?

Well, you're that dickish guy.

[Melissia]

Yeah... but you know how dickish that guy looks when he then try to give an opinion on the same ground as those who have read the entire book? Like the guy who diss on Tolkien because he couldn't get past Bilbo's party?

Well, you're that dickish guy.

No, I dissed the first paragraph where he was bashing everyone who disagreed with him.

[wittdooley]

DID YOU READ THE !#@$!#@ First Paragraph at all?!?!?! I mean seriously?!

I state that the people that started dubbing it "Failcast" have done so mostly through hearsay and conjecture. THIS. IS. TRUE. When the term started being used, many of those people hadn't even worked with a model. Go check the forum threads if you must. I took part in the discussions! They were basing it on pictures. The article allows that the release DOES have shortcomings. I mention the problems they've been having. Then I present the thesis of the article: that based on MY EXPERIENCES I BELIEVE it to be a positive material for the hobby and that I'll explore what may lay in store for Finecast.

I sincerely don't know what opening paragraph you read. The only thing I take a shot at is the amount of creativity it takes to come up with "Failcast" from "Finecast."

I know how to write. I do it professionally. Take a stab at actually reading the content for once, and then *GASP* read the rest.

[Gir]

DID YOU READ THE !#@$!#@ First Paragraph at all?!?!?! I mean seriously?!

I state that the people that started dubbing it "Failcast" have done so mostly through hearsay and conjecture. THIS. IS. TRUE. When the term started being used, many of those people hadn't even worked with a model. Go check the forum threads if you must. I took part in the discussions! They were basing it on pictures. The article allows that the release DOES have shortcomings. I mention the problems they've been having. Then I present the thesis of the article: that based on MY EXPERIENCES I BELIEVE it to be a positive material for the hobby and that I'll explore what may lay in store for Finecast.

I sincerely don't know what opening paragraph you read. The only thing I take a shot at is the amount of creativity it takes to come up with "Failcast" from "Finecast."

I know how to write. I do it professionally. Take a stab at actually reading the content for once, and then *GASP* read the rest.

Dude, don't waste your breath. She reads what she wants to read. It's like the Grey Knight-Sister fluff piece all over again.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

But I didn't, because the first paragraph put me off. Because he is a bad writer :P

Kinda like a book that gets put off because it starts slowly, but people argue it'll get better after. Sure, it might... but I'd still have to slog through the bad stuff too.

Actually just because you disagree with his points doesn't make him a bad writer, what makes a good writer, especially editorials, is eloquence, the ease of reading, and the ability to see things from various angles. Witt has done all of these things, and just because you couldn't read past the first paragraph doesn't make him a bad writer, it makes you a bad reader. You are making assumptions and opinions about the writer from ONE PARAGRAPH, are you frakking serious, that's the intellectual equivalent of calling global warming a hoax just because this winter was colder than last winter. -facepalm-

Wittdooley: I have read the article and I thought it was very well written, I mean your opinion about the whole thing is apparent, but you aren't bashing anyone like some people seem to think. It is eloquent, well written, concise, and overall an easy and informative read. I have since put you on my follow list, and hope to see many such articles in the future, always good reading your work.

[Orminah]

I've just learned to ignore the SoB lunatic's rantings and ravings. Good article man, I know it's hard to look at Finecast fairly, especially seeing as how some models I have bought have needed doctoring up. I just wish they had better QA and picked through batches, while an impossible task, you'd think it would cut down on it.

[BuFFo]

My goodness, Melissia. Did you even read past the opening paragraph? That's the ONLY place I make any reference to other people, and quite frankly, I think it's fairly justified.

EDIT: And seriously, after re-reading the article, my slight comments are hardly inflammatory. I make a concerted effort in every article I write to be fair and offer up an objecting viewpoint. I do that here. Perhaps you should also troll the ESPN forums, where people there also have trouble discerning between an editorial (OPINION PIECE) and a news story.

You really need to get over yourself.

LOL It's back, unfortunately, and it's already going at it?

Do what the rest of us did, and put it on ignore.

Other than it trolling you in this thread, I like your article very much. I don't think Finecrap is bad, over all, I think it is better than metal for GW's model line over all.

[Deadlift]

No, because the first paragraph put it as another blog of one group bashing another.

First impressions etc etc. Dislike me for not bothering to read the rest if you want, but you still put that there, right in front, establishing the tone for the rest of the article, and making me roll my eyes and skip over the rest because the tone was very obnoxious and frankly flame-bait.

This is typical forum flame-baiting troll speak, You knew this statement would result in a negative reaction, which is why you wrote it. Your sole purpose is to gain attention though posting obnoxious and ignorant garbage to gain attention. I always have a rule to not get personal on forums, but you have made me break that rule. Congratulations to you, another troll victory.

However I will now choose to never respond to another post you make as like most trolls you hate being ignored. If others do the same then hopefully you will crawl back to that Dakka Dakka cave you crawled from.

Have a nice day :D

[MarneusCalgar]

What I cannot understand is why here you are all entering into Melissia´s flaming game. She is telling you that she didn´t read the blog and is flaming everywhere, as she always did in the past, and you are all rebating her... Just ignore is the best solution!!!

About the blog... Good article, but don´t go round and round with this: it´s sure that in Finecast, as first happened with metal and then with plastic, we´ll find some mistakes at moulding... They will sure decrease, but maybe one of 100 minis will have bubbles or miscasting... That´s the fact, and continue flaming or discussing about it is a waste of time.

[Deadlift]

You have to commend GW too on their willingness to replace models customers are not happy with, I rang on Monday morning and had my replacement by Wednesday. No questions asked.

As a material as was pointed out in the article, it's far easier to work with than metal and the conversions we will be able to make opens up the hobby further.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I do agree that Wittdooley is correct - Finecast IS the future for miniatures, it is a WAY better material than metal to work with and is NOT poisonous (unless you grind them down and snort the results).

What I think he should have mentioned (drum roll, here it comes) is the detail obscuring bubbling (not the little bubbles that one can easily fill with superglue ;D). Can they be eliminated from the Finecast range? Games Workshop are very good in their returns policy - if you aren't happy with the cast, they'll take it back. But how long will this go on for? There has been no statement from Games Workshop addressing this at all - even Apple and Microsoft will acknowledge when there is a problem.

It would be interesting to see how the miniatures are coming out now - how many are being taken back? Have they fixed any of the previous problems, say, with the Terminator Librarian? And how are the 'designed for Finecast' models coming out? Are there less problems with these?

In terms of conversion, ease of assembly and detail (when it's all there) you just can't say metal is even close. I just hope they can sort out the major 'bubbles destroying detail' on some of the models and that it doesn't occur in new ones.

NB Please note I have tried very hard not to belittle or be condescending to anyone when writing this post - I would ask that anyone responding to it tries to do the same. Thank you

[SotonShades]

What I think he should have mentioned (drum roll, here it comes) is the detail obscuring bubbling (not the little bubbles that one can easily fill with superglue ;D). Can they be eliminated from the Finecast range? Games Workshop are very good in their returns policy - if you aren't happy with the cast, they'll take it back. But how long will this go on for?

I'll will try Unzuul. GW's returns policy has always been pretty good. It wasn't long ago that I got a plastic box set of Ork Bikers (ok, well actually over half a year ago now i come to think of it) and one of the arms on one of the sprues was completely FUBAR. I guess some slightly solid plastic had stoppered that part of the mold, or (less likely) a large air buble just happenned to have formed there. I happenned to be in the GW store when I openned up the box and simply called over the manager. Before i even got chance to say what the problem was he offered me a complete new sprue. How long have they been producing plastic models for?

Generally I believe GW are more than willing to replace any damaged goods (as is UK law in fact) and I've never had a problem returning anything, though I have seen people try to return models they have obviously cut or filed and been refused. I imagine GW will continue to replace any Finecast models that are miscast for as long as GW continues to sell them. I know Forge World are more than happy to replace miscast/missing parts from their kits, although warped parts are of course a different issue.

and as a final note, well done wittdooley. Really liked the article :)

[cheesyfluff]

Lol, if it was intended as flamebait ( I just didn't see that though ) then it would appear you got caught hook, line and sinker :)

Hook, line, sinker and copy of angling times sir!

And as others have said, good, well written article. Ill be sticking your blog on my favourites too.

[Melissia]

Far be it for I to resist a good trolling!
DID YOU READ THE !#@$!#@ First Paragraph at all?!?!?! I mean seriously?!Yes, I did. thank you for asking. And it was such a troll paragraph.

[wittdooley]

What I think he should have mentioned (drum roll, here it comes) is the detail obscuring bubbling (not the little bubbles that one can easily fill with superglue ;D). Can they be eliminated from the Finecast range? Games Workshop are very good in their returns policy - if you aren't happy with the cast, they'll take it back. But how long will this go on for? There has been no statement from Games Workshop addressing this at all - even Apple and Microsoft will acknowledge when there is a problem.

It would be interesting to see how the miniatures are coming out now - how many are being taken back? Have they fixed any of the previous problems, say, with the Terminator Librarian? And how are the 'designed for Finecast' models coming out? Are there less problems with these?


We're right on the same page here, Unzuul. It doesn't mention it in the article, because I wrote it before this weekend, but I got a piece (Kurt Helborg) for my birthday where a bubble had obliterated half of the "Karl Franz" (it looked like "Ka Ranz") on the horse. These are the problems that need to be fixed, without question. Like I indicated, I remail really optomistic, because it wasn't too long ago that there were tons of flashing and mold lines on the plastic kits; now, you see barely any. I think that GW will improve their process once they have it under control. I think they rushed Finecast out, and it hurt some of their QA issues.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Where is that Benny Hill theme song... Oh found it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDO0afWNH5E:D

Lol:D

[Deadlift]

I'm really looking forward to seeing some BIG finecast kits. I really hope we will see some affordable big models from GW and Forge world won't be the only place to buy the more impressive resin kits any longer.

[wittdooley]

My buddy got the Azhag the Slaughterer, and it looks fantastic. It's a model he had no plans on getting in metal, but with the resin it makes assembly a ton easier. He had a mispack (again, as I've noted multiple times, these are unacceptable) but they replaced the missing piece (with a whole kit) in 3 days.

I imagine the Carnasaur model will benefit greatly from the finecast, as well. It's really hard to balance as a metal piece.

Anyways, I'll see if I can get pictures of it up here.

@Deadlift Two places to also look for nicely priced resin kits that work with 40k/Fantasy: Banelords & Raging Heroes. They have some really great kits, and they're all reasonably priced!

[eldargal]

My brothers metal Carnosaur is named Head First Henry.:rolleyes:

Finecast.

Quality Control.

Two seperate things. These problems can and did happen with metal models, that didn;t make metal bad. The problem with Finecast isn't Finecast, it is just that GW have done a very poor job ensuring poor casts don't leave the factory. I heard from one of my sources that a lot of bins of rejected casts were accidentally sent to be packaged off, hence the problems. But I'm not sure I believe that, it just seems a bit unlikely. One assumes the reject bins are well labelled.:rolleyes:

[MarneusCalgar]

Wittdooley, please, stop flaming with Melissia!!!

We have a popular sentence in spanish: don´t discuss with an idiot, you´ll go at his level and in there, the idiot has more experience...

[wittdooley]

I know! I'm trying! It's so hard!

[MuGGzy]

Personally the only problem I have with Finecast can be said of ANY resin casting and that is the fragility of the little bits.

I have not gotten any of the Finecast stuff YET, but plan on getting a nice pile of it as soon as I have the disposable income. However I have a bunch of Forgeworld stuff and while the doors and such, or anything thick or flat, are awesome, I am afraid to play with or even pack some of the minis. An example would be Inquisitor Locke, his sword is paper thin and I had to replace it with a chainblade to even get him into a foam tray and I fully expect the "scarf" on him to brush off at any time. Same issue with Inquisitor Rex's Sword, and any number of items too thin to pin if they break.

The above example of the Incubi Fins is exactly why, if I was buying them, I would go looking for the Metal versions on Ebay so that I could be assured that the fins would stay attached after packing and transporting them.

Resin is awesome for "display" pieces, the detail you can achieve is breathtaking in many cases, but I have my doubts about the long term survivability of a $20 resin min with lots of thin bits. How many arms will Urien still have in a year from now after playing with him every weekend or will he be a awesome looking "stump". ;-)

[wittdooley]

Haha, How about Lok's Servitor. That thing is impossible not to break, and even harder to fix. :D

To assuage your fears a bit, the Finecast resin is less brittle than the Forge World resin. I just got a resin piece from Smart Max Minis, and, while GORGEOUS, that resin is even more brittle than the FW stuff.

I think the Scibor resin I have is my favorite. I've never had any breakage with his, nor have I ever had any issues with casting. To be fair, his models are very thick, and tend to not have any thin arms, etc, coming off. But I love them.

[Kovnik Obama]

LOL It's back, unfortunately, and it's already going at it?

Do what the rest of us did, and put it on ignore.


I had heard the rumours of a giant beast, a true troll of such epic proportions, that one would have to reforge Anduril to hope to stand a chance agaisnt it. The rumours do not do justice to its hideousness...

(also, it's a she??? I ask because I usually go by the assumption that gals are sweet lovable beings that make up for all the horrible horrible stuff in the world by providing us with cleavage and cake... ?)


... says the guy who's completely in denial over his own trolling.

You realize that at this point you're only trolling yourself? And I think you are doing an excellent job at it on top of things.

[laestli]

I wonder if any other retailers will be following Wayland Game's actions (http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/finecast-resin-models/cat_955.html)?

A 55% defect rate in a 60 package random sampling, unlike Games Workshop I certainly would not call this superior quality, nor any of most of the rest of the inane self-congratulatory and transparent hyperbole from their website.

[Lane]

A 55% defect rate in a 60 package random sampling,

It's not as bad as they make it sound. At least two of those "defects" looked like broken packaging and the bent parts can easily be fixed by heating.

and those gaps in the chain are easily fixed with a bit of superglue or paint.

[laestli]

It's not as bad as they make it sound. At least two of those "defects" looked like broken packaging and the bent parts can easily be fixed by heating.

and those gaps in the chain are easily fixed with a bit of superglue or paint.

Personally, I've bought 4 fine casts products, first two were returned, next two required inspecting in store 3 packages to fined two that were not defective. So I've personally experienced a 60% defect rate, but that's in a 5 package sampling so hardly indicative of much. Wayland is a distributor with access to large volumes of materials.

To be honest, who wants to buys broken models, at retail? Is this the "next evolution in miniature war gaming" GW is referring to?

I've bought appliances that were floor models because I wanted the huge discount. I bought a piece of crap car when I was 16 as a summer work project. I still shop in used clothing stores because they adjust price to match quality. In those cases I had both good reason and incentive to buy a product of sub-par quality. I, personally, would never buy a defective model without a minimum off 40% retail and that's before the resent price hick of about 14% on the particular model I wanted.

The best thing about finecast, I can take the things I've learned about using resin kits for making terrain in the last year and apply them to . . . more terrain :rolleyes: . I have a 4% miscast rate on simple textures and 7% on complex/small pieces. I'm quite happy with that failure rate as the cost plus time it more then compensates for it.

[Necron2.0]

It's not as bad as they make it sound. At least two of those "defects" looked like broken packaging and the bent parts can easily be fixed by heating.

and those gaps in the chain are easily fixed with a bit of superglue or paint.

That sounds a bit like you are making excuses for bad products. Why should the buyer have to fix it? Why shouldn't the customer expect to receive perfection, especially given how GW said "Fine"cast was such a revolution in quality? To be honest, though, I'm surprised the Lelith they have looks so good. At my local game store, every Lelith they've received has been a pock-marked horror.

Also, you need to look a little closer at those defects. Those things you're assuming are broken packaging ... aren't. They are pubic hairs.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

That sounds a bit like you are making excuses for bad products. Why should the buyer have to fix it? Why shouldn't the customer expect to receive perfection, especially given how GW said "Fine"cast was such a revolution in quality? To be honest, though, I'm surprised the Lelith they have looks so good. At my local game store, every Lelith they've received has been a pock-marked horror.

Also, you need to look a little closer at those defects. Those things you're assuming are broken packaging ... aren't. They are pubic hairs.



I hate to break it to you, but nothing will be perfect.....ever....its impossible

[Lane]

That sounds a bit like you are making excuses for bad products.

I can excuse bent weapons etc, even metal models can get bent and is easy to fix.

The other comment was sarcasm - GW claims most flaws can be fixed with a bit of paint or superglue but a section of chain is beyond most peoples GS sculpting skills.

Also consider that the 57% reject rate is only inspecting from the sides they could see, there may be more hidden by the backing card.

[laestli]

I hate to break it to you, but nothing will be perfect.....ever....its impossible

Perfect was certainly an exaggeration on his part, but would you buy a car, brand new of the lot with crack on the windshield that you are expected to replace, or a huge scrape along the side you have to get painted over? Those may not be particularly apt analogies for everyone but they are for me. I can and do such car repairs as part of my other hobby, but it would be a cold day indeed when I describe such defects in a brand new full price vehicle as representing the "next evolution in car detailing" and "superior quality", I wouldn't even call it acceptable.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Perfect was certainly an exaggeration on his part, but would you buy a car, brand new of the lot with crack on the windshield that you are expected to replace, or a huge scrape along the side you have to get painted over? Those may not be particularly apt analogies for everyone but they are for me. I can and do such car repairs as part of my other hobby, but it would be a cold day indeed when I describe such defects in a brand new full price vehicle as representing the "next evolution in car detailing" and "superior quality", I wouldn't even call it acceptable.

I can see where your analogy is coming from, but there is a major difference between a $15k (at minimum) dollar product, to an (at most) $100 dollar product. Not to mention with GW's exchange and returns policy, as good as it is, shouldn't even be a major issue. And every time this is mentioned the same "I shouldn't have to" argument crops up "if im paying this much it should be perfect" and yeah that would be nice, but even new cars have screw ups, just look at toyota and their recalls. Sure it would be nice if there were no mistakes, but when you have a company that trades on that massive of a scale, you are going to have mistakes that slip through, and when you print that many your going to have even more slip through. You know why privateer press doesn't have as major issues as GW, because they don't sell NEARLY as much physical product, so its a lot easier to catch mistakes.

Companies make mistakes, it sucks, but its something one has to accept in this day an age as manufacturing only goes on a more grand scales. Defects will happen, nothing will be even close to perfect ever, no matter the price. It is a product of our modern age and the product of the way our marketing system works, and the fact that GW's return policy is so stellar, I bet you can't say nearly the same of most other companies. Companies that have no refund policies, or will find excuses or try to blame the defects on you so that they don't have to pay for it.

[mikethefish]

My goodness, Melissia. Did you even read past the opening paragraph? That's the ONLY place I make any reference to other people, and quite frankly, I think it's fairly justified.

I don't. Typically I am not really Melissa's biggest fan, but she has a definite point on this issue. Your opening like was rude and uncalled for. I read your article, but your opening few lines really put me off anything you had to say. If you are trying to avoid alienating people, you failed miserably

[Gir]

I don't. Typically I am not really Melissa's biggest fan, but she has a definite point on this issue. Your opening like was rude and uncalled for. I read your article, but your opening few lines really put me off anything you had to say. If you are trying to avoid alienating people, you failed miserably

The opening paragraph was 100% true though.

[laestli]

I can see where your analogy is coming from, but there is a major difference between a $15k (at minimum) dollar product, to an (at most) $100 dollar product. Not to mention with GW's exchange and returns policy, as good as it is, shouldn't even be a major issue. And every time this is mentioned the same "I shouldn't have to" argument crops up "if im paying this much it should be perfect" and yeah that would be nice, but even new cars have screw ups, just look at toyota and their recalls. Sure it would be nice if there were no mistakes, but when you have a company that trades on that massive of a scale, you are going to have mistakes that slip through, and when you print that many your going to have even more slip through. You know why privateer press doesn't have as major issues as GW, because they don't sell NEARLY as much physical product, so its a lot easier to catch mistakes.

Companies make mistakes, it sucks, but its something one has to accept in this day an age as manufacturing only goes on a more grand scales. Defects will happen, nothing will be even close to perfect ever, no matter the price. It is a product of our modern age and the product of the way our marketing system works, and the fact that GW's return policy is so stellar, I bet you can't say nearly the same of most other companies. Companies that have no refund policies, or will find excuses or try to blame the defects on you so that they don't have to pay for it.

When a major retailer (or perhaps minor one) like Wayland Games has to stop selling product it does look to be a major issue though. Some random shmuck on the internet complaining about a bad model or two doesn't really mean much. I am that shmuck, I had to return two models, then inspect 3 more before I found two that were acceptable, so that's a 60% failure rate from a 5 package one model type sampling, i.e. it's anecdotal. Wayland Games seems to have more then merely anecdotal data, some would even point what they have as evidence and move on to discussing how much weight it carries.

All in all this doesn't effect me much. The only things I have changed because of the reduced quality issues, as experienced by me personally, is that every future purchase will be opened at the store, every mail order purchase opened up with my video recorder running, and I've told my wife that it's no longer a good idea to buy me surprises from the GW shop as model inspection takes a thoughtful gift into the realm of chore.

I give it less then a year before people come to see defective models as part of the status quo.

[Deadlift]

Also, you need to look a little closer at those defects. Those things you're assuming are broken packaging ... aren't. They are pubic hairs.



I just vomited my breakfast though my nose :eek:

[Emerald Rose Widow]

I give it less then a year before people come to see defective models as part of the status quo.

I am more willing to bet that within a year the casting process will improve and that there won't be as many issues with this. I mean from everything I have heard and read, GW had issues like this when it started plastic, and I imagine this will be true of any company with any brand new medium. Plastic was new, it screwed up for a while. Well this resin and polystyrene blend is brand new, and it just takes some time and eventually those mistakes will lessen, especially when they start to make more and more new molds for the new material.

Should GW have waited till they had the method down? probably, but can they afford to just replace the messed up ones and make more money by putting it out early, you bet your sweet butt.

As for the defective models becoming status quo, that is already happening, you don't see someone railing against GW plastics when they get a bad sprue or anything else, they return it. And when they return it often times they are given a whole new box to go along with the old product that was only partially defective. GW has a stunning returns record, in fact I would say no other company on this planet is as good about returns as they are. Last I checked if your hard drive went bad on a cheapo laptop, they don't send you a brand new one before you send the old one back.

Hell companies other than GW screws up, PP does it all the time in metal and resin, they miscast things, its part of the whole thing. Grant you they don't call their mini's the best in the world, and yeah sure that was a screw up on GW marketing department, but it doesn't change the fact that these things happen. Does PP, or Malifaux, flames of war, do the companies that own them all have near the same stellar return policy when something does go wrong? At least GW backs their product up, even if it has a lot of miscasts, they will replace until you get the right one that is done right. Very few companies can say the same.

[Necron2.0]

The other comment was sarcasm - GW claims most flaws can be fixed with a bit of paint or superglue but a section of chain is beyond most peoples GS sculpting skills.

Ah.

<*vaaaROOOOOOMMMmmmm*> - sound of point going straight over Necron's head.

Apologies.

[templarboy]

That sounds a bit like you are making excuses for bad products. Why should the buyer have to fix it? Why shouldn't the customer expect to receive perfection, especially given how GW said "Fine"cast was such a revolution in quality? To be honest, though, I'm surprised the Lelith they have looks so good. At my local game store, every Lelith they've received has been a pock-marked horror.

Also, you need to look a little closer at those defects. Those things you're assuming are broken packaging ... aren't. They are pubic hairs.


Pubic hairs? How do you know where the hairs came from? Or...are you just trying to be as abrasive and extreme as possible? Could they be the fine hair-like strings of plastic I get on slotta-bases occasionally? Why would a hair be such a big deal? Are you assuming that the figures are somehow sterile, made like complex and sensitive computer parts?

I am sooo sick of the hyperbole. Is Wayland right to do what they are doing? I don't know. I personally think it is a return strike against GW because of GW's sudden trade restrictions against Wayland. I would be miffed if I were Wayland also.

[Necron2.0]

:rolleyes:

[templarboy]

:rolleyes:

Defend your statement or retract it. How do you know it is a pubic hair?

[eldargal]

Necron is responsible for it?:p

[Deadlift]

Defend your statement or retract it. How do you know it is a pubic hair?

Have you seen the picture, I have and having seen my fair share of pubic hair up close ;) it certainly looks like one to me lol.

But seriously would you give a toy to a child or fellow hobbiest with any kind of hair in it ? Neither would I :)

[Grailkeeper]

Hold on, I came to this thread late. We want necron 2.0 to retract his pubic hair?

[Morgan Darkstar]

That woud be painful.

[Gir]

Hold on, I came to this thread late. We want necron 2.0 to retract his pubic hair?

As far as I can tell it's a bit to early for that.

[Emerald Rose Widow]

Hold on, I came to this thread late. We want necron 2.0 to retract his pubic hair?

OMG it would be great if i could do that, hate the stuff.

[Duke]

And that should just about do it.

One more fine cast article down the tubes.

Duke

[eldargal]

That is why god invented wax.