Grey Knights Vs The Imperial Guard - Ideas?

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

So inevitably I will have to give up and face the Imperial Guard with my Grey Knights at some point. We all know what the Guard can do, but how do we counter it? Probably looking at 3.5K-4K battle, so should give me lots of options. What d'ya got people?

[Dorsai]

Problem is, what kind of Guard list would you be going up against? Will you be facing lots of artillery? Or LR's? Infantry? Plasma? As a Guard player, I know what the guard can do, yes, but you need to be ready for so much, that your tactics need to be very flexible.

[fuzzbuket]

use the folowing chart

1) is it competitive:
yes: go to 3
no: go to 2
2) are you trying to use a netlist in a freindly?
yes i am a douche: go to 4
no: i need some help cause all the internetz say guard is evil: go to 4:
3): why are you playing competitive at that level :eek::eek:
cause im WAAC: i have 4 days to use up: go to 5
no im not being competitive: go to 1
4) hey mate its a APOC freindly: chillax and grab a can of coke
5) you are a homosexual


sorry if it is a wee bit harsh but arfter 2500pts people should just aim for fun rather than victory, but heres a tip
HOW many orbital strikes can you field? 5? well Mr. IG heres 5d3 S6 bllarge blasts! (or 5 S10 ap1 blasts)
that should make his chimeras cry, oh and LOTS of thunderhammers for transports!



-fuzz

[w7west]

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?p=145629#post145629

Easy, simply load up 6 chimeras with monkeys (weaponsmiths). All of these are of course troop because you take coteaz in one.

Now you are at 1500 points and sitting on 30 lascannons/multimeltas/heavy flamers.

Sit back and beat guard easily at their own game. Make sure they only get to shoot at your armor 12 with servo skulls / coteaz special rule.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Well, that is so beardy that I think I'd actually have to give it serious consideration, seeing as my opponent is the beardiest beeastard going! That would actually be very, very funny. But I'm not paying for that many Jokaero models - I need to find some cheap toy monkeys and fast! That would be really funny...I'm not even sure I'd need that many either.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Fuzz, no-one has beaten this guy in EVER. I want to be the man to do it, even if it makes me Beardy McBeardBeard from Beard, Beardville, Beardachusetts. And if that means using space monkeys, well ook ook Sir, ook ook...

[DarkLink]

Lots of psycannons, and a Librarian with Shrouding. And lots of Psyrifle Dreads.

IG are probably GKs toughest matchup, mainly because it's tough to kill all those vehicles. But if you spread out and play smart, you actually should take surprisingly few casualties. I've found my IG opponents use most of their heavy firepower on the Dreads, since the troops have 3+ cover saves, so all you need to do is keep shaking his stuff and eventually his vehicles will die. Multilasers still hurt, but you're not going to take as many casualties as you would otherwise.

The nastiest IG lists have some artillery (manticores, anyone?) behind a wall of Chimeras with a couple Vendettas. The units are split between plasma and melta squads. Step 1 is to shake the artillery, and kill the Vendettas. Step 2 is to pop as many Chimeras as possible. Step 3 is to hope your dice like you.

Also, avoid vet plasma squads. They suck.



Easy, simply load up 6 chimeras with monkeys (weaponsmiths). All of these are of course troop because you take coteaz in one.

Now you are at 1500 points and sitting on 30 lascannons/multimeltas/heavy flamers.

Sit back and beat guard easily at their own game. Make sure they only get to shoot at your armor 12 with servo skulls / coteaz special rule.

Yeah, that list sucks.


Well, that is so beardy that I think I'd actually have to give it serious consideration, seeing as my opponent is the beardiest beeastard going!

Wait, someone actually thinks that's a good list?


Seriously people, Jokaero spam lists are not uber anything. Really.

[C.of.N.finity]

My plan had always been to take karamzov with mordrak, bring them in turn one next to (hopefully) a couple of tanks and lay a lance strike ona model. I'd take a callidus assasin for the same purpose as she can pop out the back of a tank and then get blasted. Two dreadknights with teleporters moving to either side of the IG army...IG players tend to get a bit confused when all their enemies aren't directly in front of them. Take my techmarine with another orbital strike and increasing my cover saves and a vindicare to pop heavier tanks with his awesome sniper rifle.

Fortunatly, GK don't have an autowin button against anyone. I absolutly hate how their book is written, but at the least it does seem to be balanced.

[DarkLink]

Karamzov can't deepstrike.

[Denied]

/sigh

Listen to DarkLink he has a lot of good advice. I would also mix up the number of Psifle Dreads with a couple of strategic Purgation squads. Purgation squads are nasty give them 4 psycannons and hunker them down out of sight and then Astral Aim like a Boss!

Also if you have the points (and it sounds like you do) I suggest decking out a full list of Paladins with a GM and Libby fully loaded; 5 Psycannons (one on the GM), Halbreds/ hammers, Brotherhood Banner (a lot of servo skulls 3 on Libby, 3 on GM) Use them to stop Detta scout/infiltrate moves, they are awesome for this, then also use them to DS the Paladins into the the line of chimeras and tear them up!!! (mind you in order to make this unit it will cost at least 1000 pts, but it will also at the very least draw a lot of attention).

Then remember again to SPREAD THE F**K OUT !!!! Manticores are vicious vicious things, double so if the players dice are hot! Dettas, then transports kill his troops this will screw him hardcore!

[fuzzbuket]

herebuy i otherize the use of the 3rd ed WH codex: it still has allies and orbitla lance strikes

HUR HUR HUR

seriously stock up on hammers, psyrifle dreads,'the sanctuary' land raiders, orbital blasts and shunty dreadknights.

but if you want real cheese:

play with the FOC @5000pts and buy ALL THEM GK UPGRADES HUR HUR HUR (no dont seriously it would take weeks!)

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Well, I tell you what - what about a combination of Jokaero spam and Psycannon load out? I can field 22 Paladins, that's 7 Psycannons right there. But problem is that S7 is only gonna hurt light vehicles - he'll likely take about 9-12 Leman Russ tank variants, so I do need to load up on lascannons or I literally will have no chance at all of popping anything. Question - could I use Astral Aim to target side armour? Or even back armour? As line of sight is not required, surely if it's within range, BANG! Or is this wishful thinking? Lascannons are gonna give me a beter chance at blowing these things up, surely? I mean, it's still a 5+Glance/6+Penetrate with lascannons. I realise that Psycannons on 6+ will rend, but it's still less likely to do any real damage. Am I missing anything here? Even a Psybolt Autocannon (Psyrifle?) is only S8.

[DarkLink]

Ah, if he likes Russes, then that's trouble. Playing them relies solely on your ability to rend with your psycannons.

And never forget that Psycannons are rending. Psycannons are actually far better anti-tanks than lascannons, even against AV14. And Jokaero will likely never get close enough to the russes to use their multi-meltas.

[w7west]

Yeah, that list sucks.



He's just jelly.

If you are not bound by foc just take 5 proxy jokero for each tank he brings.

[DarkLink]

The new GK FAQ clarifies that you are bound by the FOC. You can only take a maximum of 6 Henchmen units as troops using Coteaz.

[ACSMedic]

How about using a Grand Master to give Scout and outflank 10 paladins (or depending on die roll 5 combat squad pallies twice)

That will keep him bunched up in the middle and potentially give you a bunch of flank shots.... or hell take 2 GM and outflank a crap load of termies/pallies

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

That is not a bad idea at all - I can't see much point in using a Librarian for this game, so Draigo and another GM would be sweet - one makes the Paladins a Troop choice and they can both dish out Scout. Still tempted by Ape-Spam though (seriously, this guy spends his whole 40K life spamming others, it would be great to smack him down with a big can of retaliatory spam. However, I can see how that wouldn't be as satisfying as beating him with less beardy tactics). Don't think I would use the whole 1500 points of Orangutan Love though - I'd like some actual Grey Knights in the army...
As great as they are, I'm not sure I'd want to include Dreadknights - the only thing they'd likely get to do is attract fire and die. It's all about getting shot of his vehicles and massacring his infantry after that.

[DarkLink]

I'm still trying to decide on whether to take a GM or a Librarian, just in general. A Librarian has a psychic hood and shrouding, but a GM has the grand strategy, grenades and possibly another psycannon. I can get Sanctuary on Coteaz, and the usefulness of might of titan and the quickening is mitigated by taking halberds and by the fact that hammerhand stacks. And I rarely use the Librarian's other powers.

Outflanking is very useful, but don't underestimate Shrouding against anyone, especially IG. It'll save a lot of your vehicles and models from their shooting, and against IG if you can weather their shooting for a few turns you've got a good chance at victory.



I wouldn't go for a Dreadknight either. Dreadknights kinda suck, especially against IG. IG can easily plasma them to death, and you spend a lot of points on something that can't pop vehicles from a distance reliably.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Yeah, I'm with you on the Dreadknights - which sucks, cos I think my ones look top nana. I'm wondering whether a wall of Land Raiders might work out well? Blast em up the battlefield and act as a wall? Sort of fight mech with mech? And I think maybe a Vindicare is a must - that's probably one vehicle per turn destroyed

[Denied]

Yeah, I'm with you on the Dreadknights - which sucks, cos I think my ones look top nana. I'm wondering whether a wall of Land Raiders might work out well? Blast em up the battlefield and act as a wall? Sort of fight mech with mech? And I think maybe a Vindicare is a must - that's probably one vehicle per turn destroyed

Vindicare are cute, and look badass on paper for mech destruction, but if you play against any competent player they are going to look at him and blast him off the table in turn one as an after thought. I have yet to see a Vindicare last past turn one in ANY game I have played and I have seen him at least 5 times now.

He is just like a dreadknight at first glance they look sexy but in practice they are flailing baby mice with down syndrom :-(

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Woah! That's quite a horrific put down for the Vindicare! I have seen him/her used in high towers etc and have survived just fine. I guess it depends on the players involved. They've taken out plenty of big vehicles. I think it depends how you play them and when in the shooting phase you use him. I would tend to use him in the middle of the phase before firing bigger or more numerous guns - you have a chance that some players will put less importance on him if you play his role down, i.e. keep the celebrations as the Vindicare blows up a Land Raider to a minimum.

[DarkLink]

Denied's right. The Vindicare is easy to kill, so much so that a more durable Dreadnought is almost certainly a better choice. Taking a 145pt models that'll be dead turn 2 just in the hopes of popping a Land Raider isn't a good investment.

[Denied]

Unzuul the Lascivious, so quickly lets go over the finer points here. If he is going to be taking a Russ heavy list and you know this in advance then; yes, you are going to need to combat the Russ's. Grey knights have Daemon hammers!!!! This is perfect for you. This means you need to get up to his vehicles and pop them with Daemon hammers. The best way to do this is going to be flying at him with either terminators or paladins. If he has a lot of str 10 large blast going around your Paladins extra wounds will be uselss if hit. This means you will want to have them in some kind of armored transport right?

Well what better for armored transport then a vehicle that can have both twin-linked multi-melta and twin-linked lascannons for no additional points!?!?! I am of course speaking of the amazing Stormraven. IMO Grab 3 Storm ravens give them the twin-linked multi-melta and twin-linked lascannons and load them each with a 6 man squad of terminators with at least 2 daemon hammers in there. Fly at his Russ line and unload the terminators, (now this is the cool part) unlike other transports the Stormraven has the special ability "Assult Vehicle" which means you can fly forward unload your terminators and still assault his Russ on that same turn!!!
Plus the vehicle is not done because it can shoot its Multi-melta (2D6 armor pen when within 12") and Lascannon. Also unlike the Jokero the Stormraven is BS4 (not BS3) which means you have a better chance of hitting his vehicles!!

Then all you need to do is load up with at least 3+ Psfile Dreads and fill in the rest with Grey Knight strike squads in Rhinos with 2 Psycannons and a Daemon hammer a piece.

As for an HQ to grab, go with a Librarian and have it hanging out with one of the units of Terminators, the libby has an awesome psychic shooting ability called warp rift which is a template and causes one penetrating hit to any vehicle caught in the template (ie free AV14 kills).

This would at least be the list I would build to go kill IG with lots of AV14 ... that's just me though.

[plawolf]

3 storm ravens with 6 termies each in 2 and 5 in the 3rd, Libby with 3 powers, 3 psyrifle dreads comes out to 1865pts. Which just about leaves enough points to properly kit out the termie, or upgrading to paladins

You haven't got any points left for any more bodies, even a 5 man strike squad. The most you can manage is probably an =I= with a few toys, or a vindicare if you drop some points somehere.

Playing 2k with 13 infantry and 6 vehicles will likely not end well for you.

What more, IG usually pack hydras, which will strip the cover saves from your storm ravens, and a lucky shot or two can completely wreck your game.

1 storm raven with a termie squad/paladin squad with a few hammers might be a good idea, especially if you get a plasma syphoning =I= tagging along to screw with all his plasma vets, but 3 becomes a gimmick list.

If you are having trouble against AV14, conversion beamers could be good buy, especially if you taken them on power armored xenos =I=.

You could also use techmarines if you lack the FoC slots to take =I=, but techmarines are much more expensive and only has 1 wound, so its a lot more risky taking them. But on the plus side, they can bluster your cover saves and try repairing any damage done to your dreads.

Depending on the play style of your opponent, an orbital strike relay might also be worth the points. Don't expect to hit much with it, but taking it should give your opponent something to think about when deploying, and the fear of being hit might make him spread out more than he would normally do or not form a car park at all.

As long as your mess with his game plan and force him out of his comfort zone, your odds of success would improve.

Just know what your weapons are good at. If you have a vindicare and/or conversion beamers, use them against AV14 and save your psyrifle dreads for chimeras/hydras etc, or for clearing away bubble wrap infantry so your heavy hitters can get a clear shot at his armor

If you are taking a Librarian, consider also taking a teleport homer and reserving your forces instead of marching them across the board taking fire all the way etc. Little things like that can make all the difference.

[Arien]

Plawolf, I am going to agree with Denied on this one. they're playing at 3.5 - 4k not 2k, so this will be easily done. I'd also consider ven dreads in the elite slots with melta/psyflameflamer doomfist.. and stick THOSE in the stormravens TOO!

So three stormravens boost across the field, unload three termie squads and three ven dreads and give 'em hell... Just my two cents :)

[Denied]

Your right Plawolf in a 2 K game I wouldn't play with Stormravens they are too expensive especially since they are loaded with terminators, but since its a 3.5K-4K game you have the points to buy the good stuff. Perhaps you should read the entire thread before just flipping on one comment out of context.


Also conversion beams are fail, they have always been fail and there is a reason NO ONE plays with them. Orbital strikes are also fail IMO.



Also don't forget to give your Libby Servo Skulls, I have yet to see a Mech IG player without Vendetta's and the servo skulls will limit the detta scout moves. This can allow you to coral his dettas early on or deny them the 4+ cover save in turn one. Remember your number one priority with your psifle dreads is his vendettas, they have to go down or its going to be a rough game. and always take a minimum of 4 powers on your Libby Shrouding, Sanctuary, Might of Titan, Warp Rift (or Quicksilver).

[Denied]

So out of curiosity I was looking at the over all point value of what I would go for against IG:

HQ: Librarian: 3x Servoskulls, Shrouding, Sanctuary, Might of Titan, Warp Rift – 185

Elite: 3x Venerable Dread: Multi-melta, doomfist, heavy flamer, psyflame ammo (loaded on SR)-570

Troops: 2x 6man Terminators: Psycannon, 2x Daemon Hammer, 4x Halbred- 530
1x 5 man Terminators: Psycannon, 2x Daemon Hammer, 3x Halbred- 225
3x 10man Strike Squad: 2x Psycannon, 1x Daemon hammer; Rhino – 810

Fast Attack: 3x Stormraven Gunship: TL Multi-Melta, TL Lascannon – 615

Heavy Support: 3x Dreadnought: 2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo- 405

Total: 3340pts

So .... if we want to spend more points we could turn the terminators into Paladins and drop the Venerable dreads then

Elites:
2x 6man Paladin: 2xPsycannon, 2x Daemon Hammer, 4x Halbred- 850
1x 5 man Paladin: 2xPsycannon, 2x Daemon Hammer, 3x Halbred- 370

and

Troops: 6x 10man Strike Squad: 2x Psycannon, 1x Daemon hammer; Rhino –1620

Total: 4045pts

or you can make one of your troop choices a 10 man Terminator squad and add a Grand Master to give you grand Strategy and another psycannon.

HQ: Grey Knight Grand Master: Psycannon, MC Halbred, Psykotroke, Rad, Blind- 265

Troops: 5x 10man Strike Squad: 2x Psycannon, 1x Daemon hammer; Rhino –1350
1x 10 man Terminators: 2x Psycannon, Brotherhood Banner, 2x DH, 8x Halbred- 475

Total :4515pts


Or you know you can use this as a guide to figure out what you want, but I would stay away from wasting points on bad things like Monkeys, Conversion Beams, or Orbital Strikes.


I personally would probably convert a couple of the Terminators in the Storm Ravens into Paladins then grab a 10 man Terminator squad and a Grand Master for Grand strategy. This would leave you only 2 Venerable Dreads, but meh :-P

I think with this list you can show the scrub IG that nothing can stand in the way of the Emperors Will !!

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

This certainly looks like a hardcore list. I will definitely use this as the basis of my list with what I have (will certainly be on the scrounge to borrow some dreads though, that's a lot of 'noughts.

So why are people obsessed with the Psyrifle combo? All I can see is that you get a cheaper, multiple Strength 8 shot. Why not have the TL Lascannon and have the extra armour pen?

[Arien]

4 TL shots at str 8 are much better than 1 TL shot at str 9. More rolls on the damage chart on average means a better kill ratio.

If a Lascannon were AP1, I would perhaps change it out a bit, but it's not so there you have it.

[ankhcitizen]

That there's a regiment killer...4 thousand points damn...

[Denied]

Yeah psifile dreads are very nice. 4 shots twin-linked at BS4 means on average you will hit just under 4 out of 4 shots, more then a single hit with a TL lascannon and those hits are str8 so just one lower then the lascannon so still high enough to pen AV14 even if just barely.

Like I said though with the Psifle Dreads make the Vendettas your target priority. You want those things out of the sky ASAP or they are going to eat through your armored vehicles. Once the Vendettas are down focus them onto the Chimeras, lets get the juice guards men out of their tin cans so we can rape their faces :-P

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Haha, do Grey Knights rape faces? I wouldn't put it past Mat Ward...but ok, I can go with that. But, err...lascannons are AP1 though to the guy that said they aren't - or am I having a total brain failure here?

[Denied]

Haha, do Grey Knights rape faces? I wouldn't put it past Mat Ward...but ok, I can go with that. But, err...lascannons are AP1 though to the guy that said they aren't - or am I having a total brain failure here?

A) Lascannons are AP 2, you are having a total brain-fart; Lascannon : St9 AP 2 Heavy 1

B) Against a lot of things Grey Knights do rape face. Force Weapons are nothing to scoff at, especially if you are a squish guard unit with no invulnerable save.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Hahaha, I'm crap!

[Denied]

So I was thinking about this thread the other day and something popped into my head which was you said you were doing a battle against an IG player at 3.5-4K points and I thought to myself is it even possible to spend that many points on an IG army while still maintaining to force org.... so being the ******* I am I thought about the IG list I would play if points (and money for that matter) were not an issue.... it looks something like this:

2x CCS; 4x Plasma; Chimera, Dozer – 175 (350 total)
6x Veterans: 3x Melta; Chimera, Dozer- 165 (990 total)
3x Squads of 3 Vendettas -390 (1170 total)
Squad of 3 Hydras -225
Squad of 3 Manticores -480
Squad of 3 Leman Russ Punisher - 540

Total points: 3755

Total cost to build: ~$1845.53 (not including paints and tools /random extra bits)

........ yeah ..... yeah :-P

I guess I am not using any Elite slots so it is possible to play an IG army at that cost rang, but good lord who has the money to do that??


Can you imagine how much suck it would be to play against that too, each turn you take up to 9 str 10 large blast, 60 str 5 punisher shots, 12 TL str 7 skimmer ignoring autocannons, 27 TL Lascannons, 24 Multi-lasers, 16 plasma, 18 Melta, and up to 84 lasgun shots..... wow.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

So I was thinking about this thread the other day and something popped into my head which was you said you were doing a battle against an IG player at 3.5-4K points and I thought to myself is it even possible to spend that many points on an IG army while still maintaining to force org.... so being the ******* I am I thought about the IG list I would play if points (and money for that matter) were not an issue.... it looks something like this:

2x CCS; 4x Plasma; Chimera, Dozer – 175 (350 total)
6x Veterans: 3x Melta; Chimera, Dozer- 165 (990 total)
3x Squads of 3 Vendettas -390 (1170 total)
Squad of 3 Hydras -225
Squad of 3 Manticores -480
Squad of 3 Leman Russ Punisher - 540

Total points: 3755

Total cost to build: ~$1845.53 (not including paints and tools /random extra bits)

........ yeah ..... yeah :-P

I guess I am not using any Elite slots so it is possible to play an IG army at that cost rang, but good lord who has the money to do that??


Can you imagine how much suck it would be to play against that too, each turn you take up to 9 str 10 large blast, 60 str 5 punisher shots, 12 TL str 7 skimmer ignoring autocannons, 27 TL Lascannons, 24 Multi-lasers, 16 plasma, 18 Melta, and up to 84 lasgun shots..... wow.

This guy has THAT many Guard...he got a lot of stuff when working for GW in the days they gave staff a 'by weight' price on the miniatures. He's NEVER fun to play against in terms of the game, but he's a really cool guy so I'm the only mug that ever plays him. He usually loads out on Leman Russ and Chimera, so Psyrifle Dreads not that hot Vs A14