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scadugenga
06-18-2011, 04:36 PM
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/two-player-battle-box/warmachine-two-player-battle-box


I suppose it was just a matter of time--but starter sets are now available! Not just battle boxes--but a starter box meant to get you into the game: 2 armies, 1 small rulebook, dice and a ruler.

The starter shown gives you:

Khador starter box (Sorscha, Juggernaut & Destroyer) but adds a full unit of 5 Man-o-War shocktroopers.

Protectorate starter box (Kreoss, Crusader, Repenter, & Vanquisher) and a full unit of 5 Cinerators.

Best yet, for all you metal haters: It's all plastic.

$99.99 price per the PP website, or probably $75.00 at your preferred online retailer of choice.

Edit: The starter sets come out to (I believe) 20 points each. So more than a mangled metal 15 point game, but less than the 35pt standard most people seem to play.

Mr.Pickelz
06-18-2011, 05:12 PM
That seems like one hell of a deal, being that their listing it as 99.00 and yet there is around 200.00(USD) bucks worth of stuff in it.:D:D

Verilance
06-18-2011, 05:57 PM
if only I liked the game this would be a wonderful deal but alas there is no appeal for me.

Mike X
06-18-2011, 10:55 PM
Wait, $99.99? It's actually more expensive than GW and has 66% less models. Whaaat?!

faolan
06-19-2011, 12:40 AM
No it's not, GW just had a price rise on their starter sets, by 10%. Which pushes the MSRP up to $99 as well.

Mike X
06-19-2011, 01:41 AM
No it's not, GW just had a price rise on their starter sets, by 10%. Which pushes the MSRP up to $99 as well.

GW's starter set is $99. PP's starter set is $99.99. That means it's more expensive by 99¢.

Orminah
06-19-2011, 03:03 AM
Expense wise, it's about the same, but actual points value in relativity to size of games, PP wins hands down.

eldargal
06-19-2011, 05:09 AM
Space Hulk was 100USD, had twice as many models and required no additional purchases to play, so on a relative basis GW is still cheaper.:rolleyes:

scadugenga
06-19-2011, 06:42 AM
Space Hulk is a boardgame.

This is a tabletop wargame.

You want to compare boardgames?

Grind is Privateer Press' boardgame. It's currently $25.00.

Sorry eldargal, you lose on this one. :)

faolan
06-19-2011, 06:59 AM
Eldargirl's normally pretty smart, I reckon she's just trolling us :)

eldargal
06-19-2011, 07:03 AM
I know, I'm just trying to illustrate that 'relative prices' is a load of bollocks. GW models are cheaper per model, but they are wargames, not skirmishes. So you need more. But you need more for historical wargaming too and I don't see PP players hanging out on Napoleonic wargaming boards telling people to stop being corporate tools and buy PP.:rolleyes:

A proper comparison would be Necromunda, both skirmishes. Using the PP starter set, 5.8usd per model, using GWs gang kits, 4usd per model. Rules are free on the GW website.

scadugenga
06-19-2011, 09:06 AM
Actually, Necromunda's not a good analog either. Necro (like Mordheim, which would be a better comparison) you have maybe 10-12 minis a side.

A 35 point WM/H game typically has 25-30, including warjacks.

But all that aside--I agree the partisanship PP vs GW thing is getting out of hand--on both sides.

PP has shown themselves to be more consumer/player oriented than GW--but as it has been pointed out ad-nauseam, one company is privately held, while the other is a public corporation, and their size is nowhere near in the same ballpark. Maybe people will let that die. (Doubtful, unfortunately.)

My initial pricing point was not intended to be a comparison to GW starter boxes, but the relative worth you get for the PP box vs. the PP products sold individually.

eldargal
06-19-2011, 09:21 AM
So Necromunda is cheaper, because you need fewer models!:p Hehe.

The really stupid thing about the partisanship is that I spoke to a member of Privateer Press and he said a lot of the staff play GW games still.:rolleyes:

Kovnik Obama
06-19-2011, 02:31 PM
I know, I'm just trying to illustrate that 'relative prices' is a load of bollocks. GW models are cheaper per model, but they are wargames, not skirmishes. So you need more. But you need more for historical wargaming too and I don't see PP players hanging out on Napoleonic wargaming boards telling people to stop being corporate tools and buy PP.


No, it's cheaper. You insert a subjective categorization (wargames/skirmish) in order to justify your stance. Weither models or not are cheaper is relatively unimportent, since the hobby has a whole is definetly cheaper. I have spent 150$ on my battlegroup in the last 2 years, have played (and won, but its irrelevant) local tourneys. Now how would that be possible with anything GW produces (since I have never seen a local Necro tourney, and anyways, the game itself is not designed to be tourney friendly).

On top of things, you could enter a MM tourney with both battlegroups in the Starter box, and be VERY competitive (both Sorscha and Kreoss are incredibly competitive casters, and the jacks they come with are pretty freaking good on top of things).

And yes, lots of PP staffers play 40K, since that game was the only one available for so long. Doesn't mean that they didn't produce a better game in just about every objective value one could agree on (so excluding subjective values like model appearances).

Verilance
06-19-2011, 02:43 PM
It doesn't hide the fact though, that if I wanted to play a game where the loss of one model would lose me the game I would play chess (or perhaps Shogi)

some people like it and that is fine and good but there is nothing in any of the ranges of Privateer Press that remotely interests me

scadugenga
06-19-2011, 02:45 PM
No, it's cheaper. You insert a subjective categorization (wargames/skirmish) in order to justify your stance. Weither models or not are cheaper is relatively unimportent, since the hobby has a whole is definetly cheaper. I have spent 150$ on my battlegroup in the last 2 years, have played (and won, but its irrelevant) local tourneys. Now how would that be possible with anything GW produces (since I have never seen a local Necro tourney, and anyways, the game itself is not designed to be tourney friendly).

On top of things, you could enter a MM tourney with both battlegroups in the Starter box, and be VERY competitive (both Sorscha and Kreoss are incredibly competitive casters, and the jacks they come with are pretty freaking good on top of things).

And yes, lots of PP staffers play 40K, since that game was the only one available for so long. Doesn't mean that they didn't produce a better game in just about every objective value one could agree on (so excluding subjective values like model appearances).

Dude....give up the hate! Let's focus on the topic, and not turn this into another GW vs PP thread.


It doesn't hide the fact though, that if I wanted to play a game where the loss of one model would lose me the game I would play chess (or perhaps Shogi)

some people like it and that is fine and good but there is nothing in any of the ranges of Privateer Press that remotely interests me

Then don't post in a PP forum/thread? I'm sure that we won't miss your input on a game you don't want to play.

Verilance
06-19-2011, 02:59 PM
I honestly do wish I liked it more having seen it recently in my local shop, it is why I came to this thread thinking the price might be a factor in me trying it out.

the models are interesting but the rules slow the interest down for me, however I appreciate your comment especially after seeing may PP fans complain about other games in their threads ;)

Kovnik Obama
06-19-2011, 03:01 PM
It doesn't hide the fact though, that if I wanted to play a game where the loss of one model would lose me the game I would play chess (or perhaps Shogi)


Why? A victory condition shouldn't be limited to one particular game. It's also pretty accurate to represent the loss of the most powerful member of a force as being fatal for its army. I prefer to have my heroes matter in my wargames.

Also, you can play scenario if you don't want to play Caster Kill.


Dude....give up the hate! Let's focus on the topic, and not turn this into another GW vs PP thread.


It's not hate. It's frustration produced by facing defective argumentation. Too many people resort to subjectivity sophisms on these forums (saying things like '' we can't compare two rulesets since ITS SUBJECTIIIIIIIIIIIVE ''... Once you decide on an objective value (like rule clarity, player automony, game support) then YES, it becomes possible to compare, and evaluate objectively one game agaisnt another.


the models are interesting but the rules slow the interest down for me, however I appreciate your comment especially after seeing may PP fans complain about other games in their threads

What rules?

scadugenga
06-19-2011, 04:52 PM
I honestly do wish I liked it more having seen it recently in my local shop, it is why I came to this thread thinking the price might be a factor in me trying it out.

the models are interesting but the rules slow the interest down for me, however I appreciate your comment especially after seeing may PP fans complain about other games in their threads ;)

There's nothing wrong with removing the caster kill as a scenario win option in any game that has an alternate victory condition.

Sure, it's a house rule, but if it makes the game more fun for you, then go for it!

Kovnik Obama
06-19-2011, 05:22 PM
You could also do 2 casters game. Having a caster die is still pretty harsh, but at least you don't necessarily lose all the jacks.

Also, having such a coercitive victory condition does an awful lot of good for the game itself, in that it requires TACTICAL INSIGHT not only netlisting copypasta skills.

Let's think about a fluffy exemple. Maneus Calgar and 20 Ultramarines are on a stroll by a nice summer day. They tumble upon a warband of Orks building a Teleporta, which isn't nice because they didn't bother to buy a permit for building, only one for landscaping. Maneus and the 20 marines, like the big tough guys they are, charge in, wipe the floor, stairs and ceiling with Ork faces, and then proceed to destroy the said Teleporta.

But Oh! they missed a grot, who, in all his nervousness, picks up a gun and shoot and get REALLY lucky, BOOM, HEADSHOT!!!No more Calgar.

So, who won? The objective of the UM was completed, but they lost the most epic commander they have in a relatively unimportant skirmish. Were I a SM, I would count that as a lost.

Verilance
06-19-2011, 05:29 PM
There's nothing wrong with removing the caster kill as a scenario win option in any game that has an alternate victory condition.

Sure, it's a house rule, but if it makes the game more fun for you, then go for it!

perhaps I will pick up a copy for my son and I to try one weekend then, as that rule alone made me not want to play it.

Kovnik Obama
06-19-2011, 06:40 PM
I think if more people red the fluff, they would understand that rule better. A warcaster in the Iron Kingdoms is equivalent to the a-bomb in our modern time. For a Nation, possessing one is a necessity, if one wants to compete with the others that have one. The fluff describes a battle at some point, between Sorscha, one Jack and a regiment of Iron Fang cavalry (about 100 heavy knights, if i recall correctly) agaisnt a force of 3000 Protectorate foot knights, heavy cavalry, hoplites and a few marshalled Jacks. The Protectorate got wiped out of course.

The fact is, as far as i recall, Caster Kill is not a ruled victory condition in the rulebook. It's a de facto victory condition based on the fact that warjacks get binded to a particular warcaster. When a caster dies, it's Jack shut down. If you have a second caster, that caster can reactivate the jack by moving in contact with its base. While it's sometimes still possible to win with only your troops, it's rare enough that almost everyone will throw in once they have lost a caster.

eldargal
06-19-2011, 11:35 PM
I hate to derail this thread again, but I have to respond to this.

PP is more expensive on a per miniature basis. It does require less miniatures than 40k and WFB. But Necromunda requires even fewer miniatures and those miniatures are cheaper. Thus to argue that PP is cheaper than GW is erroneous. To argue that Warmachine is cheaper than 40k is accurate, but they are different games with different focuses so the point is moot.

Warmachine is not objective a 'better' game because it is a different sort of game, and it is a very good game.

The PP rep I spoke to said the staff find the rivalry between PP and GW fans absurd, that the PP staff are fans also, it is not just a case of 'yeah they played that because it was the only thing around'. They enjoyed it, and they still enjoy it. It is this kind of ridiculous snobbery that PP itself find ridiculous.

Having said all that, I may pick up a starter set myself and give Warmachine another chance, if I can find a group of people (beyond m brothers who play) that aren't anti-GW snobs. I quite like the look of Thyra, flame of sorrow, though she isn't available yet.


No, it's cheaper. You insert a subjective categorization (wargames/skirmish) in order to justify your stance. Weither models or not are cheaper is relatively unimportent, since the hobby has a whole is definetly cheaper. I have spent 150$ on my battlegroup in the last 2 years, have played (and won, but its irrelevant) local tourneys. Now how would that be possible with anything GW produces (since I have never seen a local Necro tourney, and anyways, the game itself is not designed to be tourney friendly).

On top of things, you could enter a MM tourney with both battlegroups in the Starter box, and be VERY competitive (both Sorscha and Kreoss are incredibly competitive casters, and the jacks they come with are pretty freaking good on top of things).

And yes, lots of PP staffers play 40K, since that game was the only one available for so long. Doesn't mean that they didn't produce a better game in just about every objective value one could agree on (so excluding subjective values like model appearances).

depuce
06-20-2011, 08:49 AM
Ive seen you say GW is cheaper per model but you provide no example at all....

eldargal
06-20-2011, 09:11 AM
Go back and read the thread, I provided at least two example, Space Hulk and Necromunda gangs. But if you want another, look at the battleboxes. Five models, fifty US that is ten USD a pop, or 6.1 pounds. Contrast to GW plastics which range from 1.8 pounds right up to 5.6 for Grey Knight terminators.

Enough of that though, I'm not going to post on this subject again.

Kovnik Obama
06-20-2011, 02:47 PM
Enough of that though, I'm not going to post on this subject again.

Fine if you don't, but as in politics, leaving the table doesn't provide you any moral high ground.


if I can find a group of people (beyond m brothers who play) that aren't anti-GW snobs

Stating things as they are isn't being anti-GW. I don't consider you pro-GW simply because you indicated (and i beleive quite correctly) that GW is cheaper on a per model basis. I think you are pro-GW because you stated in this forum that ''you didn't like WarmaHordes rules'', without providing one exemple of said disliked rules, which, in conjonction with the fact that you seem to be okay with a horrible ruleset (current 40K), strikes me as being nothing else than a bias, either post-purchase rationalization or choice-supportive.


Warmachine is not objective a 'better' game because it is a different sort of game, and it is a very good game.

It is a wargame. That is all. There is nothing else to it. Chess and Checkers aren't two different sort of games simply because one has more 'models'. That alone allows for a comparison.One other proof would be that every objective values we could agree on to do an evaluation would apply on both games.

C.of.N.finity
06-20-2011, 03:32 PM
The really stupid thing about the partisanship is that I spoke to a member of Privateer Press and he said a lot of the staff play GW games still

If I recall correctly, in an interview when warmachine was first released there was a huge piece of detialing how they grew up playing GW games and invented the game during lectures in college. They owe a lot to GW, but least they somewhat respect that rather than Mantic just trying to rip them off like a jilted lover.

However, PP does owe GW an apology on a few fronts. When the game first started, they talked about never doing army books and what a horrible system that was. For years they railed against an army book system and was one of the things they scolded GW for. The same was with other editions of rulesets, making people relearn the same game and changing the rules every few years. It was a couple of years later when I had enough, and started posting on their forums how they really needed army books, etc and maaaaan you could see the flames from an ocean away.

Now, of course, you do have army books and further editions of the rules. PP as a growing company is starting to realize the sins of the father weren't merely to hurt it's children, only to help them, yet they have never gone on record with any comments justifying their reliance on things they once espoused hate for.

And we all deserve an apology for every page 5. What a load of bullsh*t.

Kovnik Obama
06-20-2011, 05:23 PM
However, PP does owe GW an apology on a few fronts. When the game first started, they talked about never doing army books and what a horrible system that was. For years they railed against an army book system and was one of the things they scolded GW for.

Been playing since Prime, never once saw someone on the forums criticize the army book method. They criticized the GW practice in failing to update every army book within reasonnable time, and how that showed a certain amount of contempt toward the consummers, which were left in ''competitive darkness'' for, sometimes, quite a few years.


The same was with other editions of rulesets, making people relearn the same game and changing the rules every few years

Uh. No one ever said anything bad about learning new rules... since just about every single units have special rules, and every new books until Legends (and now in Wrath) included new units type which obeyed particular rules.

All the players I've spoke to are happy about MK II streamlining and uniting the rules in one book. When Matt Wilson was asked when we should expect MK III, his answer was along the lines of '' NEVER ''. They have also proven they can update their entire range inside one year of the new edition. Thus, they have, on that point, validated the thrust their players put into them. If they were, in about 7 years, to go through MKIII, I would not expect my Protectorate to be left behind for a decade, which is all we players ask.


And we all deserve an apology for every page 5. What a load of bullsh*t.

Just about everything in your post was BS. God should apologize about your existence.

scadugenga
06-20-2011, 09:39 PM
Just about everything in your post was BS. God should apologize about your existence.

While funny, that's probably not the best response.

Infinity has shown him(her?)self to be an inveterate troll, with slight occasional non-inflammatory comments that have good merit.

Just take the high road and ignore him/her. You'll have less stress.

For the record, though...this was one of Infinity's less inflammatory posts--as incorrect as he/she is about the subject matter at hand. (IE army books, rules revision, and the obligatory can't-understand-the-message-behind-page5 rant that 95% of anti-PP gamers seem to get stuck in their collective craw.)

wittdooley
06-20-2011, 09:47 PM
Scad...I'd just ignore them both.

I've been noticing quite the influx of low post-count blowhards lately.

eldargal
06-20-2011, 11:51 PM
I was walking away so Scadugenga and other forumites I respect far more than you could get back to discussing Warmachine without people like you trying to define in relation to GW. Unfortunately you insist on engaging in the silly PP-GW oneupmanship I really dislike.

I am pro-GW, because they make a product I enjoy, as to rules, my group are an excellent bunch and we seldom have rules disputes, on issues we do we houserule it. No problems. I am not anti-PP however, I just didn't enjoy the few games I've played enough to make me want to play more in light of how I have been treated by some PP fans at university. I contrast this to the vast numbers of PP fans who insist on comparing everything to GW, which says to me that the PP fanbase is more about hating GW than liking PP.
They are very different wargames. Apples and oranges are both fruit.:rolleyes:

I am not posting again, not because I think that will give me the moral high ground but because I no longer wish to derail this thread. I suggest you do the same, get back to talking about Warmachine/Hordes instead of comparing it to GW. It is precisely that whinging 'how can you like GW, it is teh sux' attitude that puts me off exploring PP games more.


Fine if you don't, but as in politics, leaving the table doesn't provide you any moral high ground.

Stating things as they are isn't being anti-GW. I don't consider you pro-GW simply because you indicated (and i beleive quite correctly) that GW is cheaper on a per model basis. I think you are pro-GW because you stated in this forum that ''you didn't like WarmaHordes rules'', without providing one exemple of said disliked rules, which, in conjonction with the fact that you seem to be okay with a horrible ruleset (current 40K), strikes me as being nothing else than a bias, either post-purchase rationalization or choice-supportive.



It is a wargame. That is all. There is nothing else to it. Chess and Checkers aren't two different sort of games simply because one has more 'models'. That alone allows for a comparison.One other proof would be that every objective values we could agree on to do an evaluation would apply on both games.

wittdooley
06-21-2011, 07:20 AM
Oh eldargal, you're the best.

Kovnik Obama-- I can't wait till mom finishes giving you your shower and feeding you breakfast so you can respond.

--Munches popcorn--

Kovnik Obama
06-21-2011, 12:44 PM
Just take the high road and ignore him/her. You'll have less stress.

I don't stress easily, but thanks for caring ^^. Also, I reply for my own personnal benefit, not for the kick the show of these arguments might provide. If I voice an opinion on a hobby forum, and it causes anyone stress, or to feel wronged, or to feel attacked on the sense of entitlement a large post counts provide, well... I honestly don't care. I will defend my opinions, since I would not posit them if I didn't beleive in their value. If EG doesn't want to discuss a comparison between 40k and Warmachine ( EG you were correct btw, shouldn't compare GW to PP, but game lines to game lines), fine, but nothing about her desire to avoid said discussion should detract me from voicing my own.


I am not anti-PP however, I just didn't enjoy the few games I've played enough to make me want to play more in light of how I have been treated by some PP fans at university.

That's quite crappy behaviour. I am fine with aggressive conversation on the internet, since it flexes our humility muscle, but in person one should always avoid preaching or generally geing an ***.

But I'd just like to point out that this is not in line with what you said in another post on this very forum. In that post, you criticized Warmachine for 1) having rules you disliked, 2) having a static range of models and 3) I don't remember, except that there was a #3... Now I hear those critics quite a bit, and when for #1 I ask ''which rules'', I either get no answer, or something along the line of ''if I wanted to play a game were I would lose the game by losing one model, I'd play chess'', which is a sophism, since by saying that you admit you'd be ready to play a game with that very same victory condition, but not another game, and for no reason stated whatsoever. I'd also like to point that those same people who ''don't want to lose the game by losing one model'' seem fine with a ruleset where you lose the game by losing an objective, or losing a model that's holding an objective.

As for #2) Well... Disliking a model is subjective, so there's no point in arguing. I'd just like to point out that almost none of my models could be considered ''static'', if by ''static'' we mean a lack of suggested movement on the model. Maybe I'm lucky, but I didn't choose my models based on apperances, I built a list around my Caster, High Executionner Reznik.


I contrast this to the vast numbers of PP fans who insist on comparing everything to GW, which says to me that the PP fanbase is more about hating GW than liking PP.

Then I would suggest posting on PP's forums. There's few enough GW hate on these, aside from the aberrant number of new members that cite being disgruntled with GW in the ''Introduction'' section. Once you go past that section, it all becomes a big lovely family ^^.


They are very different wargames. Apples and oranges are both fruit.

EXACTLY!!! Which means we can, once we've agreed on an objective value, like nutritionnal value, compare and see which one is better on that point.


Scad...I'd just ignore them both. I've been noticing quite the influx of low post-count blowhards lately.


Kovnik Obama-- I can't wait till mom finishes giving you your shower and feeding you breakfast so you can respond.

Should I also apply your suggestion to high post-count blowhard? Because it then poses the irreductible problem of ignoring the person who tells you to ignore him.

wittdooley
06-21-2011, 01:49 PM
Okay, a few cogent points then, since you insist on comparing the two:

1. Privateer and GW are just as expensive on a per model basis. Eldargal has already pointed this out.

2. Privateer's rules/game structure are much more suited for competetive tournament play than 40k. This is precisely why the one's I've played in aren't fun. I don't have the time to study everyone else's combos. I don't want to. This knowledge about every other army is required to be competetive in a Warmahordes tournament.

3. I dislike the fact that Privateer can't even give you a full unit of different models. I do not own the Trollkin Sluggers or Scouts because of this. There are 5 models in the Sluggers box. You can't give us 5 different models? C'mon man.

4. Privateer's plastics don't touch Games Workshop's. There's no reason to argue here. They don't.

5. Why would I want to go to a Privateer forum and talk Sh|t about that game? So someone should just go troll on purpose? Is that what you're doing here?

6. Privateer's "fluff lists" (the tiered lists) are essentially worthless. Are any actually used in a 'competitive' list? I know Arkadia's can be, but are any of the Warmachine ones used?

7. Comparing the Army Book updates to Games Workshop is ignorant, if only because of the number of them. There is far more to update in a Games Workshop codex in terms of point balancing than in any Privateer book, simply because of unit customization. They have to determine how to balance point values with army-wide special rules, etc.

8. You're running a Reznik list. I presume this is because it is arguably the most competitive Menoth list presently, correct? This sums up one of the major differences in the player bases of the two games. You stated yourself that you don't care how the model looks. You're basing it off the rules for the model. Are you models at least painted? I ask, as the guys like you that play Warmahordes in my neck of the woods either A) don't paint their models past the three color minimum (which just look awful) or B) don't paint them at all. I don't play with these guys. I play with my buddies while drinking some beer, or just BSing. I'd argue that the majority of adult 40k players are hobbyists first, and "competitive gamers" second.

The above is going to hurt PP in the long run. They're going to have to keep pumping out "must buy units for my army list" as opposed to "must buy models." If a unit doesn't have competitive rules, the guys in my Warmahordes community aren't going to buy them. Then they're going to have a ton of models just sitting around, not getting purchased.

9. It is hilarious to me that everyone is up in arms about Finecast being a resin, and that it's going to be incredibly dangerous (even though GW has stated it isn't), when little to nothing has been said regarding Privateer's Battle Engines. The double standard is present here, and in spades.

10. For $85, I can get a ton more model than I get from a Battle Engine. I'm still getting my Storm Strider, but here's what I could also get for $85 from GW:

2 Drop Pods & a blister
A Land Raider & a Box of Scouts
Carnifex & Box of Genestealers
Dark Elf Ravager, Box of Scourges, Box of Hellions
Blood Crushers of Khorne & Daemon Prince
Ork Trukk & Box of Killa Kans

I'll stop there, but you get the point. Yet there's no outcry about the price point there. Privateer Fanboys like to compare the Battle Engines to the Baneblade, but that argument holds little water, for the following reasons:

1. The Baneblade is about 2.5 times the side of the battle engines. So you can't talk about size.
2. The Baneblade isn't designed for 'competitive' games, the battle engine is. Plus, the FA for the battle engines is 2. It's a good thing the rules for the battle engines aren't great, or auto-includes; if they were, it would severely cripple army lists for those that can't affor to drop $85 on a model.

You can claim "nutritional value" and all that nonsense because Eldargal used the "apples to oranges" comparison, but even that is wrong. They're food. They're not even the same type of food. Warmahordes is a skirmish game. Its direct competitors include Infinity, MERCS, Malifaux, etc. 40k is not a skirmish game. At present, there is not a similar game to it. It looks like Warpath from Mantic is looking to raise that banner.

I have multiple armies for both game systems. I don't think one is better than the other. They're different, and I play them at different times, for different reasons.

It would behoove you to open your eyes to that fact. Get out of Plato's cave and diversify your gaming.

EDIT: And last but not least, as I already stated, Games Workshop has been making starter boxes for nearly 20 years. Assault on Black Reach is a quantifiably betterd dollar value than the Privateer starter box.

Kovnik Obama
06-21-2011, 03:38 PM
I will try and take the time to answer each and everyone of your points. But since I'm about to go on a lunch break, I'll 1st post on #8, since it's the one that jumps out at me, because it is entirely incorrect.


8. You're running a Reznik list. I presume this is because it is arguably the most competitive Menoth list presently, correct? This sums up one of the major differences in the player bases of the two games. You stated yourself that you don't care how the model looks. You're basing it off the rules for the model. Are you models at least painted? I ask, as the guys like you that play Warmahordes in my neck of the woods either A) don't paint their models past the three color minimum (which just look awful) or B) don't paint them at all. I don't play with these guys. I play with my buddies while drinking some beer, or just BSing. I'd argue that the majority of adult 40k players are hobbyists first, and "competitive gamers" second.


High Executionner Reznik is considered one of the lower tier Protectorate Casters. Medium based Casters are prone to assassinations, since it's easier to draw attack vectors to them. He's a combat Caster who likes to hang out middle or front row, which is way too risky for most competitive players, who prefer long range spell and support Casters. His rules are awesome, but more in a fluffy way than an abuse way. I mean, when a kill a dude with him, I get to set him on a torture device which mixes crucifixion, dismemberment and burning. And that model actually provides bonuses to my army. It's awesome.

I didn't chose him based on his rules, but based on his model and fluff. I chose the other models in my force based on what would complement him well. I didn't chose any based on look only, because mostly I'm fine with the entire Menoth range. I also have quite a few 'sub-par' choices, like the Castigator, the Cinerators and Knight Exemplars. And yet I won 2 local tourneys.

Most (i'd say 80%) of my models are painted, but not based, its still WIP... I'll admit being a slow painter, but since I'm under no pressure as my battleforce is currently completed, I like to take my time.

I'd just like to mention that I am NOT a competitive player. My army is more fluffy than based on theorymachining. Most of the games I play aren't competitive. Almost no games I watch on Vassal (yes, Warmachine is on Vassal, approved by PP, and is of much MUCH better quality than the 40k equivalent) are competitive. But Warmachine allows for competitive play, and that's what matters. A competitive game, IMO, is just another way of saying a 'well-balanced game'. Weither you want to be competitive ALWAYS depend on you and the other player you are facing. Being ABLE to be competitive depends on the ruleset.

thetallest
06-21-2011, 05:05 PM
Most (i'd say 80%) of my models are painted, but not based, its still WIP... I'll admit being a slow painter, but since I'm under no pressure as my battleforce is currently completed, I like to take my time.

In my local area, most players haven't bothered to paint their Fantasy/40k armies - but the same holds true for their Warmachine and Hordes armies. Those who paint up their armies for one set of systems tend to do it for the other as well, if they happen to play both.

I stopped playing Fantasy because of 8th edition - the Magic rules feel too over the top. I stopped playing 40k because I found that I got bored with the game.

On to the topic at hand, while I appreciate that PP is releasing a starter box, I'm wondering if they will do so for other factions instead of just Menoth and Khador. Khador is the most popular faction in my local meta, and I understand the Menoth is one of the most popular factions period, and it would be nice to see some of the other factions getting some love. Furthermore, fluff-wise, one would think that Khador/Cygnar would have made more sense, since the two are at an almost continuous state of war atm.

Oh well, c'est la vie.

Lets see if they release a Hordes one!

eagleboy7259
06-21-2011, 05:05 PM
Hey can anyone give me some more information about this set, like a release date or where I can pick one of these things up? I can't seem to find it or any kind of pre-order for it on the PP website

thetallest
06-21-2011, 05:43 PM
I believe that it is September 14, but YMMV.

I know that they've been having a degree of supply problems.

Kovnik Obama
06-21-2011, 06:01 PM
Since the forum ate my point-by-point rebuttal, and I don't feel like retyping such a freaking wall of text, I'll concentrate on the most important.


You can claim "nutritional value" and all that nonsense because Eldargal used the "apples to oranges" comparison, but even that is wrong. They're food. They're not even the same type of food. Warmahordes is a skirmish game. Its direct competitors include Infinity, MERCS, Malifaux, etc. 40k is not a skirmish game. At present, there is not a similar game to it. It looks like Warpath from Mantic is looking to raise that banner.

My point is that once two things share a similar nature, then you can compare them. The more similarities, the more the comparison will be able to be precise. The use of objective values means that once a comparison as reached a conclusion, concerning that objective value, it can be held as being 'true', or 'factual'. It's an epistemological principle upon which science is founded.

They are both wargames. Why? Because ''skirmish'' is a nominative for a wargame. Like I said earlier, Chess having more 'models' than Checkers doesn't mean they are different types of games. The similarities far outweight the differences. And as far as skirmish games goes, Warmahorde is on the high body-count end, in comparison to Infinity, Malifaux, the now-defunct Confrontation or Aenima. On top of things, 40K would be considered a ''skirmish game'' when compared to some FOW tables i've seen, and Epic or Warmaster. None of that stops us from evaluating their respective values in light of each others.


It would behoove you to open your eyes to that fact. Get out of Plato's cave and diversify your gaming.

Over the years, I have played ;

WFB ; High Elves, Beastman
Mordheim (with massive mods) ; Dark Elves raiders
40k ; Dark Angels, Black Templar, Dark Eldars, and Nids
Necro ; Van saar
Warmachine ; Cygnar, Khador and now Protectorate

It's not that many, when compared to a lots of people out there, but it should siffice to say that I have a diversified gaming experience. Kudos for the philosophical reference tho ^^.

scadugenga
06-21-2011, 06:26 PM
6. Privateer's "fluff lists" (the tiered lists) are essentially worthless. Are any actually used in a 'competitive' list? I know Arkadia's can be, but are any of the Warmachine ones used?



That's highly subjective, my friend. :)

I'm rather impressed with Mags-the-Traitor's tier list. It's everything I would've included anyway with some rather spiffy bennies attached.

Gir
06-21-2011, 07:09 PM
Wait, $99.99? It's actually more expensive than GW and has 66% less models. Whaaat?!

The GW one also comes with $350+ USD worth of stuff.

Lord Azaghul
06-22-2011, 09:55 AM
The GW one also comes with $350+ USD worth of stuff.

Er, no, those models are ALL exclusive to that box set and are indeed made with a lesser quality then their ‘counter parts.
IE 5 AoBR termies are inferior to 5 standard box terminators.

It is definately not a 1 to 1 comparison.

Bottom line for me is: dollars needed to play a real game in PP world are far less then GW world

wittdooley
06-22-2011, 11:28 AM
I didn't chose him based on his rules, but based on his model and fluff. I chose the other models in my force based on what would complement him well. I didn't chose any based on look only, because mostly I'm fine with the entire Menoth range. I also have quite a few 'sub-par' choices, like the Castigator, the Cinerators and Knight Exemplars. And yet I won 2 local tourneys.

Most (i'd say 80%) of my models are painted, but not based, its still WIP... I'll admit being a slow painter, but since I'm under no pressure as my battleforce is currently completed, I like to take my time.

This contradicts a bit of what you said earlier, and essentially invalidiates my statement. This is how, IMO, lists should be built. Admittedly there are few Menoth players (only 2) in my area, but both run Reznik.



I'd just like to mention that I am NOT a competitive player. My army is more fluffy than based on theorymachining. Most of the games I play aren't competitive. Almost no games I watch on Vassal (yes, Warmachine is on Vassal, approved by PP, and is of much MUCH better quality than the 40k equivalent) are competitive. But Warmachine allows for competitive play, and that's what matters. A competitive game, IMO, is just another way of saying a 'well-balanced game'. Weither you want to be competitive ALWAYS depend on you and the other player you are facing. Being ABLE to be competitive depends on the ruleset.

I'm still inclined to disagree on the ease of competition. Warmachine is not easy to play competitively. The learning curve is steep, because as I've said, you really have to know what combos your opponent posesses. WYSIWYG is really non-existant in Warmahordes as well. Sure, it's all on the stat card, but it's not inherent in the model themselves; the Black 13th are a great example of this.

wittdooley
06-22-2011, 11:31 AM
That's highly subjective, my friend. :)

I'm rather impressed with Mags-the-Traitor's tier list. It's everything I would've included anyway with some rather spiffy bennies attached.

I'll expand on it a bit: very few of the tier lists are played in the "competitive" tournaments.

I personally enjoy using them, but then again, when I play my Vulkan 'nilla marines list, I refuse to use the bike/speeder spam because the Salamanders wouldn't use them.

Kovnik Obama
06-22-2011, 01:44 PM
This contradicts a bit of what you said earlier, and essentially invalidiates my statement. This is how, IMO, lists should be built. Admittedly there are few Menoth players (only 2) in my area, but both run Reznik.

Which statement? I ask only because I went back in the thread and didn't find anything ^^.

Reznik is an awful lot of fun. He combines solid melee damage output (him and the Butcher competes for top damage dealers within warmahorde) with fluffy rules, and while he isn't a walking feat like Kreoss and Sorscha, his feat has more flexibility (you can either use it offensively to strip focus, fury and defensive buffs, or defensively to disrupt the allocation next turn).

The Wrack thing is more fluffy fun than necessity, but since he is focus-starved, dropping Wracks is not only fun to do, it lower his weaknesses as a reward for killing dudes.

Finally, every time someones fling a spell at my dudes, my jacks breaks into a jog. Of course that only means that most of my enemies won't throw spells at me, which is fine.


I'm still inclined to disagree on the ease of competition. Warmachine is not easy to play competitively. The learning curve is steep, because as I've said, you really have to know what combos your opponent posesses. WYSIWYG is really non-existant in Warmahordes as well. Sure, it's all on the stat card, but it's not inherent in the model themselves; the Black 13th are a great example of this.

True enough. Its not an easy game to get to full speed, but I guess that I'm fine with a certain level of complexity with my wargames. I like to have to take multiple decisions every turn, and multiple options of what to do with each of my troops/heroes.

Personnaly, I think this is what Page 5 is all about (and not being competitive d!cks, like I'm sure Infinity read it). The same kind of attitude that is portrayed through the Courage Wolf meme. You will get crushed. You will be humiliated. You will be denied your super-combo by your enemies super-combo, or even by your own mistakes. But like any Ork players worthy of the name, one should enjoy getting crushed as much as crushing. (but honestly, when I 1st started, I played Sorscha and Vlad exclusively, which means that I crushed a hell lot more than I got crushed... but that was MK I... ^^ ).

I would again recommend watching games on Vassal, if one wants to get familiar with more of it's enemies options.


I'll expand on it a bit: very few of the tier lists are played in the "competitive" tournaments. I personally enjoy using them, but then again, when I play my Vulkan 'nilla marines list, I refuse to use the bike/speeder spam because the Salamanders wouldn't use them.

I think most of the sucky ones are those that are for already outstanding casters (like Amon's), and really aren't made for competitive play. I think they just wanted to trade a few bonuses for a few handicaps. I have only ever used one, on a Vassal game with Epic Feora (I dislike her because the fluff makes her REALLY unlikable, but wanted to see why everyone said she was such an amazing caster... personnaly... meh... I did win, but my opponent was a whiny b!tch who tought that it was ridiculous to be beaten by an army made entirely of women characters... yeah... misoginy is such a good argument to show how broken a game is)

wittdooley
06-22-2011, 02:22 PM
Which statement? I ask only because I went back in the thread and didn't find anything ^^.

I thought you said something about liking his rules but not his model, or some sort. Chances are I either misread it, or misinterpreted it.



Personnaly, I think this is what Page 5 is all about (and not being competitive d!cks, like I'm sure Infinity read it). The same kind of attitude that is portrayed through the Courage Wolf meme. You will get crushed. You will be humiliated. You will be denied your super-combo by your enemies super-combo, or even by your own mistakes. But like any Ork players worthy of the name, one should enjoy getting crushed as much as crushing. (but honestly, when I 1st started, I played Sorscha and Vlad exclusively, which means that I crushed a hell lot more than I got crushed... but that was MK I... ^^ ).



Don't get me wrong. I like this game a lot. I actually own every game Privateer has produced, down to both Infernal Contraptions.

I lot of my frustration stems from the Warmahordes community we have in our area. The guys are extremely Page 5, if that makes sense. They make the leagues unfun because, quite frankly, the guys have no lives, live right next to the FLGS, and have their campaign books filled the first 2 days of the league. I no longer do the leagues, which makes me sad, as I'd love to have the league bling for my BattleFoam bag.

In that regard, I think 40k is much easier for a casual player to be competitive in. It's why I play Warmahordes with a smallish group of buddies outside of the local group. I've got other things to be uber competitive in; I don't want that in my 'relaxation' hobby.

Gir
06-22-2011, 05:18 PM
Bottom line for me is: dollars needed to play a real game in PP world are far less then GW world

Not if you play kill teams, or necromunda.

Kovnik Obama
06-22-2011, 06:05 PM
Not if you play kill teams, or necromunda.

Yes, because sooo many Necromunda players are only Necromunda players... :rolleyes:

Gir
06-22-2011, 08:17 PM
Yes, because sooo many Necromunda players are only Necromunda players... :rolleyes:

Just like how so many Warmachine players are only warmachine layers :rolleyes:

Lord Azaghul
06-23-2011, 06:21 AM
Not if you play kill teams, or necromunda.

Right, Because you can buy one or two marines w/o buying a whole box...10 models form blisters will cost how much? Finecast? Oh 15$ a piece.

Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy my 40k, but there is just no way its actually cheaper to play a standard game of 40k then it is in WM.

Kovnik Obama
06-23-2011, 02:00 PM
Just like how so many Warmachine players are only warmachine layers

The difference is that those don't sink there money in PP (or at least, I haven't seen anyone with hundreds and hundred of dollars of Monsterpoc)...

Of course, that might change with Level 7...

... But oh how much I would wish that those games (Killteam and Necro) received the proper support they deserve...

wittdooley
06-23-2011, 02:44 PM
The difference is that those don't sink there money in PP (or at least, I haven't seen anyone with hundreds and hundred of dollars of Monsterpoc)...


....backs away sheepishly.

Kovnik Obama
06-23-2011, 03:14 PM
Hey hey... ^^

Never seen a game, is it fun?

Lord Azaghul
06-23-2011, 03:28 PM
Hey hey... ^^

Never seen a game, is it fun?

It was a failure, mainly because its effectly a ccg. Seen a game or two played, when the stuff was clearnanced out of my flgs

Kovnik Obama
06-23-2011, 03:35 PM
It was a failure, mainly because its effectly a ccg. Seen a game or two played, when the stuff was clearnanced out of my flgs

Funny then that they are making a movie on it with Tim Burton then.

Lord Azaghul
06-23-2011, 04:07 PM
Funny then that they are making a movie on it with Tim Burton then.

:eek:



that...wow...re...eerrr, ...nothing good can come of this!


that's all I got :eek:

Gir
06-23-2011, 04:36 PM
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy my 40k, but there is just no way its actually cheaper to play a standard game of 40k then it is in WM.

That's not really the point. The point is that when you spend the same amount of money on 40k as you do on Warmachine, you end up with the same amount of stuff, which would tell you that they are priced correctly.

scadugenga
06-23-2011, 06:44 PM
How about the point being not to hijack the gods-be-damned thread?

Just a thought, y'know...

wittdooley
06-23-2011, 07:45 PM
Its acutally really fun. My wife even enjoyed it a bit. They are coming out with a set called DMZ that comes with forces, as opposed to being random. I think it will make a huge difference in their marketing of the game. I hope to check out the new format at GenCon!

Kovnik Obama
06-24-2011, 02:53 PM
How about the point being not to hijack the gods-be-damned thread?

How about ''I don't frakking care, what else should be said, OMGPPHAZANEWDEAL!?!?!?''

Starting a thread gives you no entitlement on the direction the discussion takes. And you can continue whatever topic you wanted to discuss, us not following yours shouldn't confuse you too much, unless you have the attention span of a kitty.


That's not really the point. The point is that when you spend the same amount of money on 40k as you do on Warmachine, you end up with the same amount of stuff, which would tell you that they are priced correctly.

True, but then you would have 2-3 times the amount of models necessary to make a game.






that...wow...re...eerrr, ...nothing good can come of this!


that's all I got

Dunno, a 2012 Kaiju movie by one of the best directors out there ... I think theres quite a lot of potential for it.... Oh and the failure you speak of, is it because we don't see the games in the LGS? Because it was marketed as a cross-generation game (gamer dads brainwashing their kids into becoming wargame addicts) which would not happen in a LGS...

Or do you have priviledge info on the sales numbers?

scadugenga
06-24-2011, 06:12 PM
How about ''I don't frakking care, what else should be said, OMGPPHAZANEWDEAL!?!?!?''

Starting a thread gives you no entitlement on the direction the discussion takes. And you can continue whatever topic you wanted to discuss, us not following yours shouldn't confuse you too much, unless you have the attention span of a kitty.

Never claimed I had any control.

But y'know..it might be nice for you not to act like a douche too.

Kovnik Obama
06-24-2011, 07:30 PM
But y'know..it might be nice for you not to act like a douche too.

well SORRY that I lke to stick myself into well-lubricated butttholes... ;)

scadugenga
06-24-2011, 11:19 PM
well SORRY that I lke to stick myself into well-lubricated butttholes... ;)

Too...

Much...

Information...

relasine
06-29-2011, 10:40 PM
Before I state any opinions, I'll start by stating that I am both a Warmachine player and a 40k player. At Adepticon, I spent two days (17 hours total) running demos for Privateer Press and a whole day participating in the 40k Team Tournament. I am about to finish a month-long Grey Knights painting project. I am also a Press Ganger for Privateer Press, and have played both Warmachine and 40k for roughly the same amount of time (give or take 6 months). I like both games for different reasons. I enjoy 40k as a beer-and-pretzels game (this isn't to say that 40k is a beer and pretzels game, it's just how I enjoy it) and an excuse to socialize and paint/convert some great models (you can see my Eldar here (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=1464) and my Grey Knights project here (http://www.rm40k.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=243)). I love Citadel plastics and think that they're the best on the market. Tomorrow I'll finish airbrushing and basing the Grey Knights, and I've gotta say that nothing pleases me more than finishing up project than painting a 40k army. I'll have both my Minions and my Grey Knights with me at WargamesCon; come find me in the later hours for a pickup game!

In terms of cost, I find that my overall spending over both games is about the same. With the exceptions being the aforementioned Kill Team and Necromunda (I can't really count the latter; you can't even play it in a GW store), I find that while the start-up cost to get into Warmachine is a bit lower, the ease of modularity in list building leads most players to expanding their collections at a more aggressive rate than with a 40k army. I think that Warmachine's Battlegroup/Warpack starters are a much better place to start learning the game than buying a 40k faction battleforce. The Black Reach starter is just as good a place to start, but is obviously much more limited in terms of faction choice.

In terms of the "army book" issue that was presented earlier, there's a marked difference between 40k Codex releases and the Forces of Warmachine book releases.

You need your army codex to play 40k. You do not need the Forces of Warmachine book for your Warmachine army unless you are using a Theme list (which you can get around by using iBodger).
The Forces of Warmachine books were released to bring every Warmachine army in a presentable format from MkI to MkII. They were released over the course of the five months immediately following the release of Prime MkII, not over the course of several years.
The Forces of Warmachine books were a stopgap measure to update every faction almost simultaneously. After they were all released, Privateer Press returned to their old anthology format, vis-à-vis Wrath.

Comparing the codex system to the FoW faction book system is comparing apples to trucks. I personally don't care for the codex system because of the problems it leads to with being able to effectively update their rule set. By staggering codex updates over several years, Games Workshop has painted themselves into a corner. If they get too aggressive with rules edition updates, they risk invalidating older codecies. If they maneuver in such a way as to keep the rules update from doing so, they can't make changes in broad strokes. While I still haven't decided about how I feel about the rumored 6th Edition changes, I'm happy to see that they're potentially willing to release a ton of errata in order to free up the constraints they were under.

Lastly, there's always a lot of eye-rolling about Page 5. In retrospect, it may not have been the best idea to go the route they did with Page 5 for the simple reason that people for the longest time have had a hard time grasping that it's supposed to tongue-in-cheek, not an excuse to behave like an *******.

Back on-topic, I have mixed feelings about the new two-player starter. It's a great value for the money, but only if you're playing Khador or the Protectorate. I've always like the Battlegroup/Warpack box format better, because it doesn't tie a player down to a specific faction, but that format will still be available so there's not much to lament.

In regards to MonPoc, it's a great game, but while it was collectible, I wouldn't touch it with a stick. Now that it's using the "living" format, I'll be picking it up when my pocketbook allows it.

wittdooley
06-30-2011, 06:49 AM
Back on-topic, I have mixed feelings about the new two-player starter. It's a great value for the money, but only if you're playing Khador or the Protectorate. I've always like the Battlegroup/Warpack box format better, because it doesn't tie a player down to a specific faction, but that format will still be available so there's not much to lament.

In regards to MonPoc, it's a great game, but while it was collectible, I wouldn't touch it with a stick. Now that it's using the "living" format, I'll be picking it up when my pocketbook allows it.

I have to admit I"m most excited about the mini rule book. You know you are too :)

eldargal
06-30-2011, 07:11 AM
The thing I didn't like about Page 5 is that I don't have a pair to play with to start with. Proudly sans testicles.

wittdooley
06-30-2011, 07:57 AM
Perhaps they've been alluding to playing with a pair of ovaries this whole time and we simply didn't realize!!!!!!!!!

relasine
06-30-2011, 08:16 AM
The thing I didn't like about Page 5 is that I don't have a pair to play with to start with. Proudly sans testicles.
Well, it is "Play like you've gotta pair". Admittedly, there is something overtly masculine about it, which I imagine could be taken in a negative light to women. But again, it's supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. Hell, the president of the company is a woman.


I have to admit I"m most excited about the mini rule book. You know you are too :)
I am. I'm just not sure if I'll be picking up the whole starter. I don't play either faction in there. I'll probably snag the rulebook off of eBay.

wittdooley
06-30-2011, 08:32 AM
I am. I'm just not sure if I'll be picking up the whole starter. I don't play either faction in there. I'll probably snag the rulebook off of eBay.

I hear you there. I'm a Cygnar/Trolls guy myself, and the starter bummed me out. It bummed me out more when I asked if they had any future plans for a Cryx/Cygnar one, or any Hordes ones, and I was told no. Sniffle.

I'm still waiting to see if they'll do plastic or resin heavy warbeasts. I hate. Hate. Hate. Some of the Metal warbeast models, for various reasons, and would love to see them in a different material. The plus side to the metal, of course, is that if need be you could put your Titan Gladiator in a sock and beat a guy to death with it.

eldargal
06-30-2011, 08:58 AM
That is the problem, how do I know what it is like to have a pair? I'm sure as hell not going to build an analog out of sausage, ping pong balls and jelly.

I know it is tongue in cheek also, I too am being tongue in cheek.;) I actually have no problem with a ruleset being touted as highly competitive, so long as it is not at the expense of fun, which Warmachine does not seem to be so it is all good.


Well, it is "Play like you've gotta pair". Admittedly, there is something overtly masculine about it, which I imagine could be taken in a negative light to women. But again, it's supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. Hell, the president of the company is a woman.


I am. I'm just not sure if I'll be picking up the whole starter. I don't play either faction in there. I'll probably snag the rulebook off of eBay.

Lord Azaghul
06-30-2011, 09:21 AM
wow that was entertaining :P

As far as the starter set goes, I'm definately looking forward to it, I play khador and own none of those models ATM, plus I've already got a few menoth players to split it with - and failing that, menoth was my 2nd choice of factions to start with

wittdooley
06-30-2011, 10:28 AM
I know it is tongue in cheek also, I too am being tongue in cheek.;) I actually have no problem with a ruleset being touted as highly competitive, so long as it is not at the expense of fun, which Warmachine does not seem to be so it is all good.

As with any system, this is really dependent on who you're playing with. There are some guys in our community I won't play with because they're too cutthroat about it. I'm there to have fun.

relasine
06-30-2011, 10:39 AM
I actually have no problem with a ruleset being touted as highly competitive, so long as it is not at the expense of fun, which Warmachine does not seem to be so it is all good.

That's a fair opinion. Warmachine is an extremely dynamic game. The nature of that dynamism is big turn-off to some people. Some people don't like the speed and ease with which the balance of force can shift in Warmachine, and think of it as un-fun, which is fine. Others see it as one of its most attractive features. No single game is for everyone.


I'm still waiting to see if they'll do plastic or resin heavy warbeasts. I hate. Hate. Hate. Some of the Metal warbeast models, for various reasons, and would love to see them in a different material. The plus side to the metal, of course, is that if need be you could put your Titan Gladiator in a sock and beat a guy to death with it.
As long as it's not difficult to work with, I don't care what they make it out of. Metal can be frustrating sometimes with gap-filling and making wrists on two-handed weapons meet up with the hands. Pinning doesn't bother me anymore. When they started moving some models to plastics, I was pretty happy about it, but I loathe cleaning mold lines and flash off them due to difficult and hard-to-reach places that need scraping, but the same could be said about sprue joins for Citadel models. I really don't like working with the plastic Cygnaran light warjacks, because some of the mold lines are all but impossible to clean. I don't mind resin either if it's a good product. My impressions that I've gotten from the resin parts on the battle engines have been pretty positive so far. If it turns out like the few Finecast models I've purchased, I won't be very happy, though...

DarkLink
06-30-2011, 01:02 PM
Right, warmachine is the sort of game where misplacing a single model by .5" can lose you the game. I don't want to say that Warmachine is chess to 40k's checkers, as 40k has a lot more to it than that, but they are very different games.

Hmm, maybe if Warmachine is chess, then 40k is Life.

wittdooley
06-30-2011, 01:17 PM
The Cygnar Jack kit is awful. The mold lines on the metal ring detailing is the most maddening thing to try and clean I think I've ever worked with. Citadels plastics are far and away better. Hell, even the Alkemy plastics I have are leaps and bounds better than the Privateer ones. It's really frustrating. I also don't quite understand why they take the minis off the sprues and indivdually bag them. Leave them on. Your customers know how to clip a model. It'd save a fair amount of time and money.

With that being said, I still prefer it to having 15 paperweights. To be fair, the jacks are much better than the beasts. There is some really unforgivable gapping on the older models that require some skill with green stuff to ensure they don't look like $hit.

They have some resin models already; I think they should go that route. And I'd be pleased as punch if Privateer did a Finecast-type material as my experiences with Finecast have been overwhelming positive. However, I'm not hopeful, as they're presently having enough time with the supply chain. It'll be interesting to see what they have at GenCon, if anything is new, and if they have any good answers.

Kovnik Obama
06-30-2011, 03:49 PM
Right, warmachine is the sort of game where misplacing a single model by .5" can lose you the game. I don't want to say that Warmachine is chess to 40k's checkers, as 40k has a lot more to it than that, but they are very different games.

Hmm, maybe if Warmachine is chess, then 40k is Life.

???

Like you can't lose a game of 40k by misjudging one movement ? Like half a feet can mean the difference between life and death in a battle ? Like losing a general has NEVER been fatal to an army engaged in a battle?

Lord Azaghul
06-30-2011, 04:08 PM
???

Like you can't lose a game of 40k by misjudging one movement ? Like half a feet can mean the difference between life and death in a battle ? Like losing a general has NEVER been fatal to an army engaged in a battle?

He may have meant 'LIFE' the board game....look me 3x reading it to consider that has a possibility :p

relasine
06-30-2011, 04:16 PM
???

Like you can't lose a game of 40k by misjudging one movement ? Like half a feet can mean the difference between life and death in a battle ? Like losing a general has NEVER been fatal to an army engaged in a battle?
I kind of agree with Darklink, actually. Playing Warmachine is liking walking the edge of a knife. If you lose your balance, you're dead. 40k doesn't deal with that level of risk. Sure, losing Eldrad is going to be a huge deal to an Eldar player, but at least the game continues.

That said, I've never liked comparing Warmachine to Chess while comparing 40k to anything else. It always comes off as inflammatory. I do often make the point that Warmachine has an endgame mechanic like Chess, but only for ease of explanation during a demo.

Kovnik Obama
06-30-2011, 04:52 PM
He may have meant 'LIFE' the board game....look me 3x reading it to consider that has a possibility

Here's what I think he meant, in order of likelyhood.

a) ''Hey, I'm a troll''
b) ''Hey, my view is completly skewed''
c) ''Hey, this game is pretty unforgiving towards mistakes. I can't play a game where one (out of multiple possible) tactical mistake means I lose. BEEEEEER AND PRETZEEEEEEEEEEEEEL...

relasine
07-01-2011, 12:51 AM
Here's what I think he meant, in order of likelyhood.

a) ''Hey, I'm a troll''
b) ''Hey, my view is completly skewed''
c) ''Hey, this game is pretty unforgiving towards mistakes. I can't play a game where one (out of multiple possible) tactical mistake means I lose. BEEEEEER AND PRETZEEEEEEEEEEEEEL...

If that's seriously what you think, then one of us is seriously misinterpreting Darklink's tone.

Major Shultz
07-02-2011, 09:22 AM
Space Hulk was 100USD, had twice as many models and required no additional purchases to play, so on a relative basis GW is still cheaper.:rolleyes:

Interesting....would this be the same space hulk that if you did not preorder it you did not get a copy...and is said space hulk still available ....not counting ebay at $200 a pop? Did the box say fantasy flight on it? Just wondering?
These necromunda gangs that are a bargain....where can I buy those? When did they last mass market necromunda...you know the game with the WH40K 2nd edition close combat system?

Farseer Uthiliesh
07-02-2011, 07:00 PM
Interesting....would this be the same space hulk that if you did not preorder it you did not get a copy...and is said space hulk still available ....not counting ebay at $200 a pop? Did the box say fantasy flight on it? Just wondering?
These necromunda gangs that are a bargain....where can I buy those? When did they last mass market necromunda...you know the game with the WH40K 2nd edition close combat system?

Eldargal's example is curious, given that she cited on example for the whole range. Kind of like saying car x is a bargain, so let's ignore that company Y is overpriced as a whole.

eldargal
07-03-2011, 01:36 AM
It is not curious, GWs models are cheaper on a per model basis, its skirmish games are cheaper than Warmachine, 40k is more expensive because it requires more models. The point of all this was that GW is not more expensive than PP and anyone who says so is either an idiot, lying or delusional. This also only applies to British prices, obviously it is different if you are in the colonies.

Space Hulk was a limited edition, but that is irrelevent as it was still cheaper per model than the PP starter set, which is what the point was. Not availability or treatment of SGs.

Wildeybeast
07-03-2011, 05:40 AM
These necromunda gangs that are a bargain....where can I buy those? When did they last mass market necromunda...you know the game with the WH40K 2nd edition close combat system?

Well, you can buy them at http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat490066a&rootCatGameStyle= for £20. Whether that is a bargain is up to you to decide. Oh and you can get the rules for free too http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat480009a&categoryId=1100011&section=&aId=5300010 All you need then is some scenery which you can pick up on ebay at a low cost if you are savvy. Or you can make your own, or the GW imperial sector buildings from 40K would work quite nicely. I guess GW hasn't mass marketed it recently because there isn't a mass market for it, but they have done what they can to make it accessible to those who want to play it.

Faultie
07-03-2011, 01:23 PM
It does my heart good to see the GWSM Team so active. Long-live Necromunda! :P

relasine
07-03-2011, 07:51 PM
I guess GW hasn't mass marketed it recently because there isn't a mass market for it, but they have done what they can to make it accessible to those who want to play it.

Again, except for the fact that you are not allowed to play it in a GW store.

Kovnik Obama
07-04-2011, 02:30 PM
its skirmish games are cheaper than Warmachine, 40k is more expensive because it requires more models. The point of all this was that GW is not more expensive than PP and anyone who says so is either an idiot, lying or delusional. This also only applies to British prices, obviously it is different if you are in the colonies.

Anyone who truly think that you can't compare Warmachine to 40K because of the number's of model, or because of a ''skirmish'' nominative, but then proceeds to comparing it to Necromunda, is either an idiot, lying, delusional, or simply completly misinformed.

So you can compare a game were a battleforce that can go up to 60+ models (warmachine), includes magic, in-game ressource allocations mechanics, vehicules, artillery, to a game that will go up to 24 models (Necromunda, and I,ve never seen a 24 member gang in my, what, 10 years of playing necro...), include none of the above, because they are both labeled ''skirmish''...

... But you cant compare same 60+ models, including vehicule, artillery, magic and ressource allocation game to another one with the same caracterics, because it goes to to 240 models.

... So EG, how you like being a lying, stupid crazy gal?



Again, except for the fact that you are not allowed to play it in a GW store.

Wait, what? You actually mean they will ask you to step out, if you don't play one of their favourite games???
...
...
.................................. Man, wtf?!?

thetallest
07-04-2011, 03:33 PM
It is not curious, GWs models are cheaper on a per model basis, its skirmish games are cheaper than Warmachine, 40k is more expensive because it requires more models. The point of all this was that GW is not more expensive than PP and anyone who says so is either an idiot, lying or delusional. This also only applies to British prices, obviously it is different if you are in the colonies.

Space Hulk was a limited edition, but that is irrelevent as it was still cheaper per model than the PP starter set, which is what the point was. Not availability or treatment of SGs.

@Eldergal - Having fun trolling?

wittdooley
07-04-2011, 05:38 PM
\

... So EG, how you like being a lying, stupid crazy gal?




Wait, what? You actually mean they will ask you to step out, if you don't play one of their favourite games???
...
...
.................................. Man, wtf?!?

So Kovnik, how you like being a fanboy ***?

Kovnik Obama
07-04-2011, 05:49 PM
So Kovnik, how you like being a fanboy ***?

Love it. Especially since I don't actually DEFEND or ATTACK PP/GW, but the rhetorics of people that are DEFENDING or ATTACKING PP/GW...

... and that it keeps validating my opinion that GW fans are at an entirely different level of hatred and sophistry than PP's fans.


Also, if you refered to the
Wait, what? You actually mean they will ask you to step out, if you don't play one of their favourite games???
...
...
.................................. Man, wtf?!?
part... I was genuinely surprised. Such level of suckyness are only matched at the ''black hole'' level of existence.

scadugenga
07-04-2011, 07:43 PM
@Eldergal - Having fun trolling?

That's not trolling.

If she were trolling, I'm sure several people would have to jump over to Merriam-Webster or make swift use of their google-fu.

eldargal
07-04-2011, 11:15 PM
Fine, we won't compare games.

Games Workshop models are still cheaper than PPs.

Like any hobby it is as expensive or cheap as you wish it to be. But you will still get more GW models for your money than PP models. If the relative sizes of games don't matter, as you say it is innapropriate to compare Necromunda to Warmachine, then GW is still cheaper because you get more for your money.


PPfanboi: Warmachine is cheaper than 40k because it requires less models!
IntelligentPerson: Necromunda is cheaper than Warmachine because it requires less models!
PPfanboi: OMG U CAN'T COMPARE WARMACHINE TO A GAME WHICH NEEDS LESS MODELS WTF IS WRONG WIV U?!?!
IntelligentPerson: Ha.




Anyone who truly think that you can't compare Warmachine to 40K because of the number's of model, or because of a ''skirmish'' nominative, but then proceeds to comparing it to Necromunda, is either an idiot, lying, delusional, or simply completly misinformed.

So you can compare a game were a battleforce that can go up to 60+ models (warmachine), includes magic, in-game ressource allocations mechanics, vehicules, artillery, to a game that will go up to 24 models (Necromunda, and I,ve never seen a 24 member gang in my, what, 10 years of playing necro...), include none of the above, because they are both labeled ''skirmish''...

... But you cant compare same 60+ models, including vehicule, artillery, magic and ressource allocation game to another one with the same caracterics, because it goes to to 240 models.

... So EG, how you like being a lying, stupid crazy gal?




Wait, what? You actually mean they will ask you to step out, if you don't play one of their favourite games???
...
...
.................................. Man, wtf?!?


I don't troll, I just tell the truth to the cretinous and mentally negligible.

@Eldergal - Having fun trolling?


Back on topic, I'm thinking of starting either a Cryx or Menoth force, idiot fanbase not withstanding I should at least be able to get in some sensible games with my brothers and a couple of friends. Any advice as to which is more newbie friendly?

Kovnik Obama
07-05-2011, 01:24 AM
PPfanboi: Warmachine is cheaper than 40k because it requires less models!
IntelligentPerson: Necromunda is cheaper than Warmachine because it requires less models!
PPfanboi: OMG U CAN'T COMPARE WARMACHINE TO A GAME WHICH NEEDS LESS MODELS WTF IS WRONG WIV U?!?!
IntelligentPerson: Ha.

You realize I was calling you on your double-standards, right? I didn't say you COULDN'T compare it to Necromunda. I said it was crazy of you to allow a comparison to Necromunda as valid while disallowing a comparison to 40K. But hey, I guess it's normal that someone with so many years of 40k would have so much problems with reading the intent behind a sentence.

Ha.


Back on topic, I'm thinking of starting either a Cryx or Menoth force, idiot fanbase not withstanding I should at least be able to get in some sensible games with my brothers and a couple of friends. Any advice as to which is more newbie friendly?

Cryx; Multiple long-range spellcasting vectors, excellent heavy infantry, incredible support, with fewer tempting Jack options than other factions. Gains souls for enemy killed, and are also very stealthy Overall VERY strong (top of the game, to most account), forgiving to beginners, with a power curve that will only go up as you gain experience with them.

Menoth (my love) ; Shooting and Spellcasting denial at it's very best. Medium infantry, good Jacks, best support of the game. Have a tendency toward setting their opponent's on fire, which is one of the best effect of the game.

eldargal
07-05-2011, 01:34 AM
Well, actually I brought up Necromunda precisely to provoke a hissy fit about the comparison. PP players love to bring up Warmachine being cheaper than 40k, but they don't like it so much when you point out other GW game systems are cheaper than Warmachine. Point is it works both ways, 40k is more expensive than Warmachine but Warmachine is more expensive than Necromunda, Mordheim or even other systems like Dystopian Wars etc. The comparison are rather silly, as I said you can make GW or Warmachine as cheap or as expensive as you like, but you still get more models for your money with GW.;)


Sounds like Cryx might be a good choice then, I'm not too fond of warjack models so if Cryx aren't so into them it works out.

mazgier
07-05-2011, 02:58 AM
Sounds like Cryx might be a good choice then, I'm not too fond of warjack models so if Cryx aren't so into them it works out.
As with every other WM faction it all boils down to the choice of the caster and list. Both Protectorate and Cryx can run "all warjack" lists as well as "infantrymachine" ones with just a lone warjack to use up caster's WJ points. Perhaps you may also consider the fluff side of the faction you're going to choose. Do you prefer undead worshippers of a really BIG dragon that spend half their time chasing their god offspring and the other half fighting amongst themselves or frothing zealots that devote their lives to burn everything that they think opposes the Word of Lawgiver?
Just be aware that the fluff is to certain degree reflected in the playing styles of the WM factions.

Farseer Uthiliesh
07-05-2011, 04:20 AM
Fine, we won't compare games.

Games Workshop models are still cheaper than PPs.

Like any hobby it is as expensive or cheap as you wish it to be. But you will still get more GW models for your money than PP models. If the relative sizes of games don't matter, as you say it is innapropriate to compare Necromunda to Warmachine, then GW is still cheaper because you get more for your money.



I really disagree. If anything, the value is almost equal. 10 Bane Thralls are about equal to 10 DE Kabalite warriors, and the prices are equivalent to other countries than GW's dumb price hikes in Australia. Heck, even the books are cheaper with PP (AND in full colour with high quality pages). In addition, it costs more to start WH or 40k. You can just buy a WM or Hordes battlebox and have enough to start gaming, as opposed to the GW battleforces not having enough troops to start. Need I mention that PP sets have the rules in them? (Well, starter rules.)

Now I love GW as much as PP, with my Dark Eldar being my pride and joy, but all this fanboyism-fueled criticism of PP is simply silly. And the same can be said of PP fanboys attacking GW.

scadugenga
07-05-2011, 06:10 AM
Sounds like Cryx might be a good choice then, I'm not too fond of warjack models so if Cryx aren't so into them it works out.

Cryx heavily favors speed and mobility that makes up for an inherent fragility that many eldar players will feel pretty comfortable with.

Menoth can play very infantry heavy as well, but they also have a very synergistic style of play, and well--they're essentially religious fanatics. Technologically they're a bit behind everyone else (fluff wise, and slightly rule-wise with their jacks) but the amount of bodies on the field can make up for that.

wittdooley
07-05-2011, 07:20 AM
Well, actually I brought up Necromunda precisely to provoke a hissy fit about the comparison. PP players love to bring up Warmachine being cheaper than 40k, but they don't like it so much when you point out other GW game systems are cheaper than Warmachine. Point is it works both ways, 40k is more expensive than Warmachine but Warmachine is more expensive than Necromunda, Mordheim or even other systems like Dystopian Wars etc. The comparison are rather silly, as I said you can make GW or Warmachine as cheap or as expensive as you like, but you still get more models for your money with GW.;)


Sounds like Cryx might be a good choice then, I'm not too fond of warjack models so if Cryx aren't so into them it works out.

Nice thing about cryx also is that their jacks are, IMO the easiest to paint. You can usually slap a base coat of spray on silver on them, then pick our your highlights, bone, and green as normal. My buddy has been able to get his Cryx painted up really quickly.

Plus, they have some of the best models in the game, IMO. The new Scaverous model is the balls, and I've always had a soft spot for the Warwitch and Pirate Queen.

Lord Azaghul
07-05-2011, 09:27 AM
Cryx is considered to be the most powerful and straight forward faction atm.

a good friend of mine actually loves to combine necrons with cryx models:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/user/1963-Aduro.html
I really like the look and astetic of what he created.

Personally the models/theme don't appeal to me -so its not for me.

Menoth seems to be a good, 'denial' and 'buff/synergy/combo' force. I was tempted by this faction, but again - the models/theme put me off a bit, huge shoulder pades and what not! BUT some of the models are still pretty cool.

So I went with khador - a nice beatstick approach

@eldergal and Kovnik are we done fighting yet?

Both cost $$(or pounds if you prefer), both can be(are) fun, both are compariable in certain elemets (like tiny and painting), and not in others(the learning curve). ;)

Kovnik Obama
07-05-2011, 03:05 PM
Sounds like Cryx might be a good choice then, I'm not too fond of warjack models so if Cryx aren't so into them it works out.

Could be! You should take a look at the Bonejacks (little chicken jacks), because you'll likely want to include 2-3 of them in every of your forces. While they are really REALLY squishy, they all carry an arc node on the back, which basically means that you can make you Warcaster sling spells from the jack instead of from her. It's really really good, since multiplying the number of attack vectors is one of the best (and easiest) tactics of the game.

Then you can add the Skarlock (a cheap solo), who get to cast a spell selected from your Warcaster's list (3 focus or less) for free per turn.

Then, you can get the Deathjack (If you get over his horrible model, or decide to start a conversion project), whose basically the most badass jack out there, AND a spellcaster.

... so yeah. With Cryx, you'll saturate your enemy with spell attacks. If Denny (the skanky warwitch) is the one you are looking at, then you'll look at massive defense and armor debuffs, coupled with a lot of attacks spells. I think they have a Corrosion theme, but I'm not entirely sure.

wittdooley
07-05-2011, 03:44 PM
Could be! You should take a look at the Bonejacks (little chicken jacks), because you'll likely want to include 2-3 of them in every of your forces. While they are really REALLY squishy, they all carry an arc node on the back, which basically means that you can make you Warcaster sling spells from the jack instead of from her. It's really really good, since multiplying the number of attack vectors is one of the best (and easiest) tactics of the game.

Then you can add the Skarlock (a cheap solo), who get to cast a spell selected from your Warcaster's list (3 focus or less) for free per turn.

Then, you can get the Deathjack (If you get over his horrible model, or decide to start a conversion project), whose basically the most badass jack out there, AND a spellcaster.

... so yeah. With Cryx, you'll saturate your enemy with spell attacks. If Denny (the skanky warwitch) is the one you are looking at, then you'll look at massive defense and armor debuffs, coupled with a lot of attacks spells. I think they have a Corrosion theme, but I'm not entirely sure.

Awe... I like the DeathJack....

I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but you can also play an entire force that's built around reaping the souls of your fallen enemies. Really cool, and a pain in the *** to play against if you go infantry heavy.

Oh yeah, they also have (I think) the most models able to be incorporeal of the Warmachine factions.

Ugh... They're just tough to deal with.

scadugenga
07-05-2011, 06:56 PM
Awe... I like the DeathJack....

I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but you can also play an entire force that's built around reaping the souls of your fallen enemies. Really cool, and a pain in the *** to play against if you go infantry heavy.

Oh yeah, they also have (I think) the most models able to be incorporeal of the Warmachine factions.

Ugh... They're just tough to deal with.

And probably one of the leading reasons every warcaster (Save Darius) has a magic weapon...

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-06-2011, 06:12 AM
I downloaded the preview rules for MK2 back in Sept of 09,but never got around to playing the game or collecting any models.A long time friend of mine who isn't a gamer,asked me about some of the AT-43 models I had sitting around the apartment & how the game was played,after playing the game he was hooked.We played once a week for 6 straight months.Now that Rackham has gone the way of the dinosaur,some of the enthusiasm for the game has been lost.I've played 40k since 2ed. & have 5000pts of dark angels & 2000 of orks,but he has never been interested.He called me the other day & asked me if I saw the E3 preview for a video game called war machine.When I explained to him that not only was it a video game,it was a mini/table top game he became interested in hitting the tables again.With no DA codex anytime soon & his interest peaked about warmachine,I thought it would be a good time to give it a go.
But first I had a few questions.That I'll have to ask in my next post because this F'in PS3 won't let me finish.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-06-2011, 06:45 AM
After seeing the contents of the 2 player starter box,I start looking through the old print out for stat lines,abilities & point costs.So I could help my friend understand what these armies were all about.I found entries for all but the unit of "Cinerators".Is that the name on the unit entry,or is it a nickname,or is this a new unit that didn't have stats back then? Is it true that this starter box won't be out until Sept? (don't think I want to wait til then).Will there be other starters with different armies (I really like cygnar & my buddy has only played theirans/cypher of AT-43 in his entire table top career,so he has no idea what army he wants to play). As always,thanks to anyone for taking the time to help me out.

wittdooley
07-06-2011, 07:11 AM
I'm fairly certain the Cinerators are new since 2009, but they aren't a "new" new unit; they've existed for a while.

Based on m chats with PP, they aren't planning on a different 2P starter, which saddens me also as I'd love a Cygnar one as well.

Tell him Menoth is all about buffing/debuffing and setting things on fire with massed zealotry. Thats sorta a rough and dirty description of the army.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-06-2011, 07:51 AM
thanks witt, that being the case (no other starters) & the fact some others in my usually gaming group have expressed interest in playing khador & menoth I'll probably start with the cygnar battlebox,rulebook & counter set.I have some questions about cygnar that I'll start in another thread,everyone please stop in & let me know what you think.

wittdooley
07-06-2011, 08:16 AM
Bear in mind my info is based on a conversation from right when the box was announced. In that same conversation, I was also told there were no plans for Plastic Warbeast models for Hordes, and those were apparently discussed at Lock & Load.

CAPTAIN SPAGNOULO
07-06-2011, 09:41 AM
Thats fine,I always like Cygnar from the first time I seen them.The starter box seemed to good to pass up even though I had no interest in either army & even if others come out it'll probably be after Sept & I don't want to wait till then anyway.

scadugenga
07-06-2011, 11:27 AM
The Cinerators formal name are Exemplar Cinerators.

They were released back in April '10.

They seem to be Exemplars on steroids with flaming swords. But I'm not a Menoth player, so I couldn't tell you for certain. :)

Kovnik Obama
07-06-2011, 12:58 PM
They seem to be Exemplars on steroids with flaming swords. But I'm not a Menoth player, so I couldn't tell you for certain.

Pretty much what they are. The tallest and strongest of Exemplars are selected to train for the Bastion armour (I think that's the name), which is basically the Sulese equivalent of the Uhlan armour (so heavy, it's normally only intented for the heaviest of cavalry, because the knight himself can't move it).

Of course, exemplars are awesome, and are all blessed by the bounds of their brotherhood. Thus, after years of walking with rocks on their shoulders in the middle of desert, they get to move that huge armour withtout much of a problems. They then chose either Bastion (polearm) or Cinerators (shield, flaming sword)

In gaming terms, Exemplars are elite medium to heavy infantry all with mechanics to represent their specific bonds. Knights get stronger as their brother falls, Errants sacrifices themselves, Bastions redistribute damages a la wound allocation in 40k, and Cinerators gains a movement boost when they get damaged. There swords also turns into a pyre anywho they slay, damaging the enemies in contact with the victim.

Usually, the Errants and the Bastions are considered the best amonst the Exemplars.

wittdooley
07-06-2011, 01:32 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, Kov, but the Bastions are also in plastic, yes?

Ello_Thar
07-06-2011, 02:36 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, Kov, but the Bastions are also in plastic, yes?

Correct

Kovnik Obama
07-06-2011, 05:48 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, Kov, but the Bastions are also in plastic, yes?

Sure are, REALLY easy to assemble, but doesn't give much options for the pose (3 poses on 5 models i think), and the swords are ridiculusly thin and prone to warping. I've been told that afer 15 seconds in a hot water bath they will go back to the original cast, but I haven't tried yet.

Also, It should be said that Cinerators are considered sub-par by most of the community. They are slow heavy troops whose special ability only mitigate their weakness once they have been damaged. Compared to the Bastion, they lose Reach, which really limits their threat range. But contrarily to Bastions, a 3 man squad isn't a bad idea (Bastions need a 5 man squad to take full advantage of the wound allocation rule, while Cinerators loose nothing going down to 3)

That said, I love the models, and I NEED 3 medium bases to screen Reznik.

OH. Should mention that all Exemplars (except for their leader, Kreoss, yeah, go figure...) are Weapon Masters, which mean they all get to add a D6 (so 3D6 instead of 2D6) to all their damage rolls. It's a good thing to have ^^

wittdooley
07-07-2011, 07:46 AM
Damn. Cygnar really needs me some Weapon Masters....

Lord Azaghul
07-07-2011, 08:24 AM
Damn. Cygnar really needs me some Weapon Masters....

Doom Reavers are part of what convinced me to go with khador...what 'reach' and an extra damage die - holy crap!

wittdooley
07-07-2011, 08:51 AM
Not to mention they get that attachment that makes them immune to magic. They wreck my face all the time...

Lord Azaghul
07-07-2011, 09:41 AM
Granted I’ve only gotten a handful of games in yet, but these guys have yet to disapoint.

Last game they willed a cryx jack (and a few of themselves) the remaining dude got into combat with my opponents caster – I wiffed on my turn. Then my opponent, with about 85-90% health decides to leave combat granting me the ‘free strike’ – camping full focus

My remaining doom reaver hits, its (dice – 10), I roll 5, 5, 6, 6. = 12 damage: Takes him down to 1 health point left! I know it was a lucky roll, but wow!

Ello_Thar
07-07-2011, 09:50 AM
That's why I never walk away from weapon masters :mad:

wittdooley
07-07-2011, 10:06 AM
I'm trying to think if my Cygnar have any Weapon Master units.... I know there's a solo or two that are, but units?

IIRC My Trollblood Champions are Weapon Masters.

If you can tell, I don't use lists with my Weapon Master models in it....

thetallest
07-07-2011, 02:12 PM
@Witt

I don't play Cygnar, but IIRC you don't have any weaponmaster units.

I think the closest you get is the Precursor Knights with UA - the UA grants them a minifeat which is essentially powerswell.

Kovnik Obama
07-07-2011, 02:28 PM
I'm trying to think if my Cygnar have any Weapon Master units.... I know there's a solo or two that are, but units?

I had to go through BattleCollege to check, since by memory I couldn't name a single one. And I didn't find one in there either.Cygnar seems to replace it by either Anatomical Precision, Flank or Brutal Charge, which are all good substitutes.

With Gun mages, you can mimick it with Brutal Shot. Frakking Gun mages... :D

wittdooley
07-07-2011, 02:41 PM
@Witt

I don't play Cygnar, but IIRC you don't have any weaponmaster units.

I think the closest you get is the Precursor Knights with UA - the UA grants them a minifeat which is essentially powerswell.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I think Blaize has Weapon Master? Maybe?

I could have sworn that the Storm Rider Solo did as well. I'm probably wrong.

Alistar SHOULD have it for his guns, but whatever....

Kovnik Obama
07-07-2011, 03:43 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought. I think Blaize has Weapon Master? Maybe?

I could have sworn that the Storm Rider Solo did as well. I'm probably wrong.

Alistar SHOULD have it for his guns, but whatever....

Dunno for Blaize, but it would make sense.
Laddermore doesn't have Weapon Master, but Brutal Charge, which is +2 to her damage on a charge.
And Caine doesn't need anything added to his threat level. He is like the most efficient kiting caster ever (admittedly, Kraye is awesome at that role too).

thetallest
07-07-2011, 05:13 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought. I think Blaize has Weapon Master? Maybe?

I could have sworn that the Storm Rider Solo did as well. I'm probably wrong.

I seem to recall that you have a caster with ranged WM (the female caster with the long rifle pointing up in the air - Kara Sloan?) and that you also have a WM solo in Wrath, but I think that's about it. You might have a few units with Flank - but that would be about it.

scadugenga
07-07-2011, 08:23 PM
I seem to recall that you have a caster with ranged WM (the female caster with the long rifle pointing up in the air - Kara Sloan?) and that you also have a WM solo in Wrath, but I think that's about it. You might have a few units with Flank - but that would be about it.

Sloan is a weaponmaster with her rifle. I initially wrote her off as a 'caster because the first read through I completely missed the "weaponmaster" part.

Then I caught it...and went "damn...." 4d6+12 out to 16" away (spell) that ignores stealth, etc (if she forfeits movement) is sick.

Add in a couple utility mercs and she is just wrong. Reinholdt gives her another shot with that boomstick, Gorman can make a 'jack -2 ARM, and Ayanna/Holt gives her +2 damage against whatever enemy Ayanna casts Kiss of Lyliss on. It's enough to make Khadoran heavies whimper. (Even more so on her feat turn...)

The Archduke is just your garden variety weaponmaster melee type. With all the attendent spiffies attached.

No actual unit with weaponmaster though. But honestly? Not sure they need it. With all the electro-boosting from the various Storm units, and CRA/CMA everywhere in the list, they have lots of spiffies already.