Archon & Djinn blade

[GrenAcid]

Hi, on other forum there wehe question about Djinn blade, dose it grants you +2A with PW and your stats or it grants +2A to weapon you use??

Im after first option cuz for me its a "dancing" blade, that just attack alongside with you.

[Nabterayl]

The Djin Blade itself is the weapon you use, so it gives you the power weapon ability and its special +2A. It's not a floating blade. But even if it was, it's a weapon, so it doesn't do anything unless you're "using" it.

[Necron_Lord]

Let's say that you have an Archon with an Agonizer, Djin Blade and a Splinter Pistol. If you used the Splinter Pistol and Agonizer your Archon would be A 4/5 and wound on a 4+ and ignore armor saves. If you used the Djin Blade and the Splinter Pistol your Archon would be A 4/5 +2 and have a power weapon at the Archon's strength but two dice would be rolled seperate because something unfortuitous can happen if a double is rolled for the extra attacks. You can't use two different special weapons at the same time. The only other CC weapon one can use with an Agonizer or Djin Blade would be a normal CC weapon or a pistol.

[GrenAcid]

Its not a weapon like agoniser, I cant buy 2 djinn blades cuz its special wargear....not wepon option, I can have 2 ccw and djinn blade, question is how those +2A works.

[yrdetraxe]

It IS a weapon! It even says so in the description:

"A djin blade is a power weapon. Furthermore the bearer makes two bonus attacks ...."

No need to argue about that. ;)

[Necron_Lord]

Its not a weapon like agoniser, I cant buy 2 djinn blades cuz its special wargear....not wepon option, I can have 2 ccw and djinn blade, question is how those +2A works.

Let's say you use the Djin Blade in CC. You would get 5 power weapon attacks (Djin Blade + either Pistol or CC Weapon) and then 2 additional Power Weapon attacks which you need to roll separately or use a different color dice. If the to hit rolls for the two additional attacks are doubles (i.e. they are both '1's, '2's, etc.) then those 2 attacks hit the Archon and then you have to roll to wound against him. Otherwise you would then roll to wound against the enemy for all hits made. All damage would be at the Archon's strength and ignore armor saves.

[Squirrelking]

I'd like to play devil's advocate here. If I can =)

Djinn blade's rules say two very distinct things:

1) A djin blade is a power weapon.
2) Furthermore the bearer makes two bonus attacks

RAW is saying it is wargear that is a power weapon. It also says that this wargear then gives you 2 bonus attacks. It does not specify that those bonus attacks are PW attacks, that would be RAI. I feel what confuses the issue is that if you roll doubles then "the blade rebels against its wielder" thus supposing that it's the Djinn blade making those attacks.

A non confusing rule write up would be: "the djinn blade is a power weapon. Furthermore, the bearer makes two bonus power weapon attacks at the users strength." A rule like the old servo-harness for Iron Warriors that specified what kind of bonus attack it got (i.e. +1 powerfist attack).

You could see it like the old Chaos Gift Daemonic Mutation that gave you +1 attack. It didn't specify what kind of attack it was. Just that it gives you +1 attack.

I am purposefully avoiding playing with the Djinn blade because of this. I think that it gives the user 2 bonus attacks, to be used as the user wishes. I also think that it is a power weapon and can be used that way too. But I know others don't see it that way, so I'm not pushing for an argument.

A little bit like the "straight line" thing with Reavers.

[Duo Sonata]

I would say that you'd have to be using the Djinn blade in order to gain it's two bonus attacks and not just have it equipped. The GK FAQ supports this since if you have the GK Daemon weapons which also have some abilities that say "Bearer" or "Wielder" instead of just "When using" and yet you have to choose between which two you want to use to gain their respective bonuses.

[Necron_Lord]

I'd like to play devil's advocate here. If I can =)

Djinn blade's rules say two very distinct things:

1) A djin blade is a power weapon.
2) Furthermore the bearer makes two bonus attacks

RAW is saying it is wargear that is a power weapon. It also says that this wargear then gives you 2 bonus attacks. It does not specify that those bonus attacks are PW attacks, that would be RAI. I feel what confuses the issue is that if you roll doubles then "the blade rebels against its wielder" thus supposing that it's the Djinn blade making those attacks.

In the BRB (p. 42) it states that when one is using a special weapon and normal weapon in CC "All of the attacks, including the bonus attack, use the special weapon's bonuses and penalties". Since the special weapon (Djin Blade) is the one granting the additional attacks, they would be power weapon attacks like the bonus attack from the CC weapon or pistol, even though normally a CC weapon or pistol attack would not ignore armor saves in CC. I personally don't think there is an issue. Just mi dos centavos.

[isotope99]

Even if this was true, would you really pay for an agoniser and a djinn blade just to add 1 attack (you lose the 2CC one for having two special weapons) that could hurt you?

[Squirrelking]

Good point Necron Lord. I see what you're saying.

Like I said, I'm avoiding the issue in a game but enjoying the discussion about it =)

What sticks for me is the fact that the Djinn Blade is in the wargear section for the Archon, not a weapon swap. So I see it as an item who's benefit is that it gives you 2 bonus attacks. Like Shadow field is wargear that gives you a 2+ invul. But this wargear (Djinn Blade) has the added ability of being a power weapon. I would see someone swap the pistol for a Blaster but could still benefit from 2 CCW if they also take a Djinn Blade: the Archon would be equipped with Blaster, CCW, Djinn Blade.

You are right if the bonus attacks for the Djinn blade are in the same category as the bonus attacks stated in the BRB for having 2 CCWs, then they would use the profile of the Djinn blade as a power weapon. (yes, I can envision seperate categories of "bonus" attacks! =P)

I know I'm pushing it, but I feel that they could have avoided the issue with a bit clearer rule.

And to answer you Isotope, if you keep the pistol and pay for an agoniser, then only use the +2 attacks (if it's an item, and not used as a PW) then you can benifit from the 2 CCW bonus AND the +2 attacks!

Why would you do this? 'Cause it's awesome! =)

I have made an Archon called Princess Overkill, decked out with all this and a Shadow Field, Combat drugs and whatever else floats my boat. I go for character all the time before efficiency. I really miss the Chaos 3.5 dex...

If I want efficient, I'll use the Duke or a Succubus.

[Tynskel]

unless you have two special weapons, you always use the special weapon, not CC weapon in assault (this is in the Main Rulebook FAQ).

[Squirrelking]

not sure how that applies here, but ok! =)

[Nabterayl]

The fact that the djin blade isn't a weapon swap doesn't necessarily make it not a weapon. It's clearly listed as a weapon on page 56. The only thing not being listed in the weapon swap section means is that you don't have to swap a weapon for it. Compare space marine honor guard on page 131 of the space marine codex, which can "take" a relic blade without swapping any weapons for it.

EDIT: You know, looking back on the entry, I must revise my opinion. The djin blade is clearly a weapon, but I note it says the bearer, not the wielder or user, makes two additional attacks. So an agonizer/pistol/djin blade archon wielding the agonizer would get 4 agonizer attacks base, plus one agonizer attack for wielding an agonizer and pistol, plus two agonizer attacks (which can turn on the archon) for being the bearer of a djin blade. Wielding the djin blade, the archon would get four power weapon attacks base, plus one power weapon attack for wielding a djin blade and pistol, plus two power weapon attacks (which can turn on the archon) for being the bearer of a djin blade.

[Tynskel]

lemmy see if I follow you.

splinter pistol, ccw and djin.


You should have all power weapon attacks: 5 personal power weapon attacks, and 2 djin crazy attacks.

Because the rulebook states that you use the special weapon.

[Squirrelking]

EDIT: You know, looking back on the entry, I must revise my opinion. The djin blade is clearly a weapon, but I note it says the bearer, not the wielder or user, makes two additional attacks. So an agonizer/pistol/djin blade archon wielding the agonizer would get 4 agonizer attacks base, plus one agonizer attack for wielding an agonizer and pistol, plus two agonizer attacks (which can turn on the archon) for being the bearer of a djin blade. Wielding the djin blade, the archon would get four power weapon attacks base, plus one power weapon attack for wielding a djin blade and pistol, plus two power weapon attacks (which can turn on the archon) for being the bearer of a djin blade.

You've said it perfectly. Thank you! Wish I could've done the same!

I can understand people seeing it both ways, so that's why I don't push this view on my opponents. I was hoping it would get FAQed...



lemmy see if I follow you.

splinter pistol, ccw and djin.


You should have all power weapon attacks: 5 personal power weapon attacks, and 2 djin crazy attacks.

Because the rulebook states that you use the special weapon.

Yup, that's how I would understand the "splinter pistol, ccw and djin" combo. =)

[Nabterayl]

lemmy see if I follow you.

splinter pistol, ccw and djin.


You should have all power weapon attacks: 5 personal power weapon attacks, and 2 djin crazy attacks.

Because the rulebook states that you use the special weapon.
Yes, although you would achieve the same result by having just a splinter pistol and djin blade or just a CCW and djin blade.

[Crevab]

It was FAQ'd:
DE p.3
Q: When a model has multiple special close combat
weapons, do they only gain the effects of the one they
choose to use in each round of combat or do they gain the
effects of all of the special weapons that they have? (p56)
A: They will only gain the effect of the weapon they choose
to use. For example a Haemonculus has a huskblade and
an animus vitae. If he chooses to use his huskblade, he
will not be able to attempt to gain a pain token from his
animus vitae.

Animus Vitae has the same wording of "bearer" as the Djin Blade and people were hoping that by simply having the Vitae they could gain tokens by killing things with more deadly weapons. Nope

Also, being a weapon swap or chosen as Wargear has nothing to do with being a weapon. For example, Hexrifles and Liquifier Guns are under "additional wargear" for Haemonculi; yet for Wracks and Grotesques the Liquifier is a weapon swap and (on Wracks) the Hexrifle is a "may take one of" along with things like Venom Blades and Agonizers.

[Tynskel]

that's consistent with the main rulebook FAQ, too.

[Squirrelking]

It was FAQ'd:
DE p.3
Q: When a model has multiple special close combat
weapons, do they only gain the effects of the one they
choose to use in each round of combat or do they gain the
effects of all of the special weapons that they have? (p56)
A: They will only gain the effect of the weapon they choose
to use. For example a Haemonculus has a huskblade and
an animus vitae. If he chooses to use his huskblade, he
will not be able to attempt to gain a pain token from his
animus vitae.

Animus Vitae has the same wording of "bearer" as the Djin Blade and people were hoping that by simply having the Vitae they could gain tokens by killing things with more deadly weapons. Nope

Ah, very good point. I can see how this could apply to Djinn Blade as well. I am not very familiar with the Arcane wargear so I didn't make the link between the abilities and the FAQ.



Also, being a weapon swap or chosen as Wargear has nothing to do with being a weapon. For example, Hexrifles and Liquifier Guns are under "additional wargear" for Haemonculi; yet for Wracks and Grotesques the Liquifier is a weapon swap and (on Wracks) the Hexrifle is a "may take one of" along with things like Venom Blades and Agonizers.

Never thought it was not a weapon. =) Just that it had an added "non-weapon" ability that didn't need the weapon to be used in CC for it to work.

[TheRise]

It works as a normal weapon. It also works how Crevab described it. Though I would never use one. unless you are going suicidal list with lots of grotesques with no Independant characters with them.