Latest FAQ, Nades, and Multi-assaults

[bonedale]

So hopefully this question is too stupid. But in the latest FAQ, it was made clear, only one model in the squad needs to have nades, not the entire unit for the effect. While this makes sense. It made me wonder, what about multi-assaults. Seems unfair, but if you can pull off a multiple assault, 2 or 3 squads can be neutered by your nade effects by one model.

Is this how everyone sees it, or am I missing a general nade rule in the BRB?

**** scratch this I found in the GK book, that it is clear that it works on unit(s) for both psy, and rad.

[isotope99]

Presumably you would have to very carefully position your GM/Techmarine etc. to get into contact with more than one enemy unit in a multi-assault.

[DarkLink]

No need for that. All enemy units are affected by grenades. Not 'all enemy units in base contact with the guy carrying the grenades', but 'all enemy units'.


You could multicharge 50 separate squads, and every one of them would be at -1T or whatever.

Edit:
Here's the exact wording.


When a unit equipped with psychotroke grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, roll a D6 for every enemy unit being assaulted or assaulting to see what the effect is.


During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to Toughness until the end of the phase (this does affect the victims' instant death threshold).


It's crystal clear that every enemy unit in the combat is affected, no matter who is in base contact with who.

The only question regarding how this worked was whether or not an IC could grant the unit the effects of the grenades, and the FAQ answered that.

[Tynskel]

ah, but you are forgetting, the 'techmarine' is only assaulting one unit, because independent characters count as their own unit in CC.

[Nabterayl]

I agree with DarkLink. Independent Characters are not separate units in "an assault." What page 49 says is that independent characters are treated as a separate single-model unit "when the attacks are resolved."

So if a techmarine joins a squad and the unit charges two enemy units, when we are checking whether two units have been assaulted by the techmarine's unit - before any blows are struck - the answer is yes, even though when we start counting down Initiative order, the techmarine will be treated as a separate single-model unit.

Apparently GK ICs have very good arms, can fling lots of grenades really fast, or both :p

[jorz192]

I don't have my rule book with me to double check, but does this mean that the whole squad benefits from a sergeants melta-bombs?

[Nabterayl]

No, it doesn't. Melta-bombs and krak grenades are weapons, and thus individual to the model. Frag grenades, rad grenades, psychotroke grenades, and the like are not weapons, and specify that they affect whole units rather than individual models.

[bonedale]

The FAQ is getting better and better. At first, I thought it was neutral to a player with common sense. But I wouldn't have guessed Hammerhand would have stacked, and the nade squad-wide benefit is changing the way I build out my HQ, and Elites. Now Crowe has even less value, and Xeno Inquisitors are incredible. Techmarines are pretty cool as well since you get the added benefit of beefing up places for your firebase to sit in.

[s_harrington]

No, it doesn't. Melta-bombs and krak grenades are weapons, and thus individual to the model. Frag grenades, rad grenades, psychotroke grenades, and the like are not weapons, and specify that they affect whole units rather than individual models.

I agree with you 99%. I figured I'd point this one inconsistency out before some Troll uses it as an attack on you.

Assault Grenades (Frag in this case) actually only work for the model, not the unit. You can find this on page 36 of the rule book.
Defensive grenades do work for the whole unit though, which is real nice.

[Nabterayl]

Whoops, good point. Thanks for the correction!

[somerandomdude]

ah, but you are forgetting, the 'techmarine' is only assaulting one unit, because independent characters count as their own unit in CC.

They are only separate units when resolving attacks, not when the assault occurs (which is when the grenades trigger).

[DarkLink]

Right, the FAQ clarifies that it doesn't matter if only one guy in the assault has grenades. If a) an assault is being launched and b) one of the GKs has Rad/Psykotroke Grenades, then the enemy units suffer the effects. It doesn't matter who's assaulting, it doesn't matter which GKs have the grenades, it doesn't matter who's in base with whom. As far as Rad/Psykotroke Grenades are concerned, on the turn an assault is launched all enemy units are de-buffed.

[bonedale]

OK, I need one more clarification. I'm looking at you DarkLink.

This is in relation to the enemy unit(s) effected by the nades.
Is the effect on the enemy unit(s) applied to all combats that round, or just the one launched by the unit with the nades?

For example. If I string out a 10 man GKSS squad with techmarine, and they pull off a multi-assault on 2 enemy units. We agree, that both enemy units suffer the effects of the nades. Now since it is just a GKSS, not really a big deal, as their # attacks is not really going to spread to 2 enemy squads very well. However, if, in that same assault phase, I launch an assault on one of the effected enemy units with another friendly unit without nades, I assume the enemy units are effected by the nades for that phase for all assaults that it is involved in. And one more question on this. Does the order of assault moves matter? At the end of the day, all assault moves are made, then, attacks are carried out. But if the order doesn't matter when the nades go off so to speak, then it is much easier to pull this all off.

That to me is the real power of the FAQ. Not that one unit can take on multiple units with nades, but the fact that a unit with nades can "prep" enemy units for assault in that phase. In essence, one techmarine, can lay the ground work for a good assault phase.

[Nabterayl]

Not DarkLink, but ...

However, if, in that same assault phase, I launch an assault on one of the effected enemy units with another friendly unit without nades, I assume the enemy units are effected by the nades for that phase for all assaults that it is involved in.
You are correct, because the grenades' effect is on the enemy unit. It isn't a benefit to the Grey Knights, it's a penalty to the enemy.


And one more question on this. Does the order of assault moves matter? At the end of the day, all assault moves are made, then, attacks are carried out. But if the order doesn't matter when the nades go off so to speak, then it is much easier to pull this all off.
No, the order doesn't matter in practice. You are correct that the point is that the grenades go off before any blows are struck (and before ICs start being treated as separate units). So by the time anybody cares, all assault moves will have been made.

[DarkLink]

Right, the effects of the grenades can get pretty ridiculous.

Let's say I'm facing foot IG, and he had like 30 separate units of guardsmen, all spread out in a line across the board. I march up my line of Grey Knights, with enough units of my own to span the board. I then multi-charge every one of his 30 guardsmen units.

I have a single Grand Master with grenades involved.

Every single Guardsman is at -1T, and every unit of Guardsmen rolls separately on the Psykotroke grenade table.



Not that this is even remotely realistic. It would be awesome to see someone pull something like this off, though.



Edit:
Incidentally, attached IC's are only ever treated as separate units for the purpose of allocating attacks. They're actually still part of the unit that they're joined to throughout the assault phase, you just allocate their attacks and enemy attacks as if they weren't. That's why Hammerhand buffs both the unit and the attached IC, for example.

[Nabterayl]

As long as you could multi-charge 30 guardsmen units with a single unit of Grey Knights + grand master, yes. I think you meant to say "with enough models of my own to span the board." The grand master's grenades only affect enemy units assaulted by his squad.

[bonedale]

Last one, I swear.

Call me crazy, but with all this multi-assaulting talk going on, something hit me. Surely these effects don't stack? But I see nothing to say otherwise.

Let's say I have a grand master with psystroke and rad nades, and a xenos inq with the same. They are both assaulting/assaulted by enemy unit(s). They can either be a part of the same squad, or not, doesn't really matter. So technically, the enemy is being hit with 2 of each nade type. -2 toughness and 2 rolls on the psystroke table. Pretty nasty indeed. Now the only thing that would cancel out is if the enemy unit rolls the same psystroke effect twice. Unless they roll 6 twice. That would be funny.

[Nabterayl]

That's my read of it, yes.

[Tynskel]

are you sure? The IC count as separate units when fighting in close combat. So the IC with the grenades would only effect the units that the IC is engaged with.

[Tynskel]

for example:

Frag Grenades--- if only the IC has frag grenades, only the IC benefits from them, not the entire unit.

[Nabterayl]

are you sure? The IC count as separate units when fighting in close combat. So the IC with the grenades would only effect the units that the IC is engaged with.
I'm pretty sure, yes:

Page 49 says "... the character assaults too, as it is part of the unit. When the attacks are resolved, however, independent characters are always treated as a separate single-model unit ... once all attacks have been resolved, these characters are once again treated as normal members of the unit they have joined (from determining assault results onwards)." So we can see that the IC counts as a separate unit not for purposes of the whole assault, but only the part where models are actually striking blows.

Page 61 of the GK codex, meanwhile, says "During a turn in which a unit equipped with rad grenades launches an assault, or is assaulted ..." Notably, it makes no mention of being engaged. The IC need not even be engaged in close combat - so long as he is part of the unit when the assault is launched or received, he triggers page 61. Page 60 of the GK codex similarly uses the "launches an assault, or is assaulted" with reference to psychotroke grenades.

Frag grenades are different. As page 36 says, "Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for assaulting enemies through cover." The rules for frag grenades specifically mention that they benefit only the model bearing the grenades. It is for that reason, and not because the IC is a separate unit for purposes of resolving attacks, that an IC with frag grenades only benefits himself. If you had a squad of ten space marines, only five of which had frag grenades, only those five would receive the benefits of the grenades.

[somerandomdude]

for example:

Frag Grenades--- if only the IC has frag grenades, only the IC benefits from them, not the entire unit.

That's because the Assault Grenades rules specify that you check on a model by model basis.

The new grenades check to see if the "unit" launching the assault has them. The trigger is who assaults, and at that time the IC and unit are one single unit.

[Tynskel]

ah right.

[Arien]

Last one, I swear.

Call me crazy, but with all this multi-assaulting talk going on, something hit me. Surely these effects don't stack? But I see nothing to say otherwise.

Let's say I have a grand master with psystroke and rad nades, and a xenos inq with the same. They are both assaulting/assaulted by enemy unit(s). They can either be a part of the same squad, or not, doesn't really matter. So technically, the enemy is being hit with 2 of each nade type. -2 toughness and 2 rolls on the psystroke table. Pretty nasty indeed. Now the only thing that would cancel out is if the enemy unit rolls the same psystroke effect twice. Unless they roll 6 twice. That would be funny.

-2 Toughness no, as the wording only ever allows for -1 Toughness no matter how many rad nades are involved in any assault. 2 rolls on the Troke table however, I believe is perfectly reasonable within the rules. Enjoy.

[DarkLink]

Well, the language for rad and psykotroke grenades is almost identical, so either both stack or neither do. I believe that neither do.

Both say "in a turn where a unit equipped with [rad/psykotroke] grenades launches and assault or is assaulted..."

So, if a unit with grenades is involved in the assault, you are at -1T/roll on the table. If multiple units are involved, you are still engaged with a unit, and so suffer the penalty. No stacking involved for either.

[Nabterayl]

Hmmm ... I think I find that persuasive.

[mcfarlane50]

well this is a very interesting thread I guess I'll have to think twice when I play my GK playing friend now. Why god do I play footguard we always get the worst in CC!?

[Tynskel]

well this is a very interesting thread I guess I'll have to think twice when I play my GK playing friend now. Why god do I play footguard we always get the worst in CC!?

because you like 1,000,000 men.