I'm Sorry (open letter)

[The other guy]

I'm sorry.

I know we had our differences in our relationship, but I can see past them now.
Let's take it back to when we first started. I avoided you at first cause people told me how difficult you could be. And they were right, you're tough and awkward to work with at times. But you were always reliable, and sturdy. The weight your contribution brought was always solid.

To be honest I don't know where our love affair ended. I can't remember falling our of love with you. But one day you just weren't there anymore.

I've had a couple of tries with someone new, but it's not the same. People told me about how flash and amazing they were, and i believed them. But all ive had so far is disappointment. They are flimsy and they bend on the slightest issue. I want to know their details, but their story just seems full of holes and lacking details. I just don't feel I can rely on them like I could on you.

Come back Metal, all is forgiven

[Lemt]

Goodbye and good riddance metal. You have been replaced by something that doesn't weight a ton, is easier to manipulate and mold to my liking and will stick and stay the way I tell it to.


Wait, that came out wrong...

[eldargal]

Yep, just because there are some QC issues (which are being resolved) doesn't mean GW taking metal out back, giving it a cigarette and popping a cap in the back of its head isn't a good thing. In six months time when the casting issues are sorted out all this will be forgotten.:rolleyes:

[Lemt]

I think we all need therapy of some sort. &_&

[SonicPara]

All of the drama over finecast is getting pretty absurd, not to mention misleading. I've now purchased two finecast models (Canis Wolfborn, Dark Eldar Archon) and both have been perfect. Among my circle of gaming friends, there are about 12 more finecast models that have all been flawless, not even air bubbles. While 14 models out of the thousands produced doesn't mean that the quality control is perfect on the finecast range, it does mean that any previously mentioned statistics regarding miscasts are grossly exaggerated.

[wittdooley]

Good Riddance.

[faolan]

Sorry Para, but out of two shipments of Finecast to the local shop that I've seen the entirety of, only 3 models in total weren't severely messed up, only 1 of which was a "perfect" cast - and that on an Ork, of all things.

[Lemt]

Well, I spoke with my local red shirt (AKA 1 hour away) and he told me that the only two models that seem to have problems often are Coteaz (problems on the eagle's beak) and the Terminator Librarian (problems on the bolter). I checked quite a lot of minis mself, both Fantas and 40k, and I saw no errors on any of them.

[Necron2.0]

Don't worry TOG, metal isn't going away. Metal has been the medium of choice for miniature figures for the better part of 300 years, and there are still plenty of folks in the collecting community who prefer it over resin.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Sorry Para, but out of two shipments of Finecast to the local shop that I've seen the entirety of, only 3 models in total weren't severely messed up, only 1 of which was a "perfect" cast - and that on an Ork, of all things.

I am sorry to say this but.

I am having a hard time believing this.

Not a single model i have seen has had any problems.

[Kawauso]

Good riddance, indeed.

Anyone want to buy 6 metal Zoanthropes? :P
Or 7 combi-melta Sternguard?

[Psychosplodge]

I am sorry to say this but.

I am having a hard time believing this.

Not a single model i have seen has had any problems.

Whereas not a single model I've seen hasn't had problems....

[SonicPara]

Sorry Para, but out of two shipments of Finecast to the local shop that I've seen the entirety of, only 3 models in total weren't severely messed up, only 1 of which was a "perfect" cast - and that on an Ork, of all things.


I believe that such instances are possible but I don't believe that they are anywhere near as common to warrant all of the drama people like the TC are creating. Sometimes you just have bad luck.

[UltramarineFan]

Now for the letter from the rest of us:

Dear Metal,

So long and good riddance!! I'm so much happier without you, I've found someone new in my life and I'm better off for it, some people have been saying that I should go back to you, that I'm wasting my time with this new one but I'm not listening to them, they can say what they want but I know what my experience has been and I shall trust that, not the word of naysayers.

Goodbye metal, you won't be missed!

[Regnir]

Whereas not a single model I've seen hasn't had problems....

I think that a lot of these "WHOA PROBLEMS!" and "THEY'RE ALWAYS PERFECT" posts tend to be more about personal perspective than anything. Many will see a model and expect it to be 100% perfect, not a single flaw. But the fact remains that metal models still are prone to the same sort of flaws(examples: one of my two metal incubi boxes had a miscast head that was missing about 50% of its substance, and an older metal librarian that I purchased many months ago had a large crack running a portion of its back where it looks like it had cooled too quickly).

I've purchase two finecast models so far: a succubus and a Coteaz. The succubus had one tiny bubble where one of the arms plugs in, and isn't noticable. The Coteaz had what I thought was a bubble, but ended up being where a vent meets the fist, which had broken off of the sprue during shipping. The other blisters I've viewed in stores seem to be fine.

Sure they're covered in flash. That flash took all of 2 minutes to clean off of the model. Hell, it took longer to properly clean any single one of any of the metal Dark Eldar models that I've purchased recently(two archons, 10 incubi, a succubus, a Urien, and a Leilith) which were all covered in the tiny metal strands poking off of any and all pointy bits of the model(created by the spinning process, no doubt).

Standing the succubus side by side with the metal one, the new Finecast one definitely looks better. As a medium, I prefer cleaning it to metal. Are they perfect? No, but they're perfectly paintable and usable. But it is a different process, and just like metal is prone to its own set of problems. I'm sure there are bad models and perfect models, but I'm betting against anyone claiming that they've only ever seen all perfect or all flawed models. I'm sure the true answer is somewhere in between.

[justsam]

i've seen maybe a dozen finecast models so far, and only two of them have been high quality. all the rest of them have had some visibly noticeable miscasts. your results may vary, but i know what i've seen and don't intend to start buying until they get the issues worked out.

[Lerra]

Overall I like the resin, but has anyone else noticed problems with heat? A friend left his resin miniatures in his car on a 90 degree day and they ended up all melty. I've heard of FLGSs in the southern US receiving shipments of melted resin goo instead of miniatures.

[Orminah]

Yeah, I live in South Texas. Resin models..... Yeaaaahhhhhh.... They might not work out so well.

[Deadlift]

To be honest I think these, anti finecast threads have been done to death now, if you don't like it don't buy it and ebay the metals instead.

[Lemt]

I've gotten a Finecast Abbadon, and I was amazed at how crisp all the details where. Then I scraped them all off, since I wanted to build Horus with him. But thanks to Finecast, I managed to slice every single detail to use in other miniatures, instead of having to file them off as would have been the case with metal.

[BrokenWing]

The easy solution to resin in heat that I've practiced for years is to just not leave your resin models in high temperature areas for long periods of time. It's like leaving anything else that might otherwise melt in a car on a 90 degree day for an entire day. It's not the material's fault, it's the fault of the person leaving it there. It's kind of like putting all your plastic models in hardcore paint remover and be surprised when they all melt.

[Psychosplodge]

Long reply

Yeah there does seem to be a lot of negativity, but IMO it seems rushed and poorly thought out to produce so many poor models on release, they should have got the process right before changing.

Can anybody tell me why they didn't just move completely to the plastic they use, rather than a resin? as that doesn't suffer anywhere near the mis-casts and is still cheaper than the metal?

[BrokenWing]

Because plastic tends to hold less detail than Resin. That would be my guess.

[Belial69]

Since metal is heavier than resin, shouldn't that mean the shipping cost should be less?

[Necron2.0]

The easy solution to resin in heat that I've practiced for years is to just not leave your resin models in high temperature areas for long periods of time.

In theory that'd work. I falls apart, however, with the postal carrier (either leaving your package on the doorstep or in an outdoor mailbox).

I'm a bit surprised by this news, however. I've been buying minis (both resin and metal) for years, and although I've always worried about it, I've never had a problem with miniatures melting in the summer sun. Maybe this is a problem unique to finecast.

[BrokenWing]

You can leave instructions for mail carriers/ups/fedex/etc employees when they drop off a package.

I've never heard of Resin melting either (getting all soft and bendy on the other hand) but allot of things that don't usually melt will if you leave them in a *car* on a 90 degree day when the interior of the car reaches well above 90.

[Velium]

Overall I like the resin, but has anyone else noticed problems with heat? A friend left his resin miniatures in his car on a 90 degree day and they ended up all melty. I've heard of FLGSs in the southern US receiving shipments of melted resin goo instead of miniatures.

i know this is anecdotal, but where you could get FW resin flimsy with warm tap water, i went at a finecast incubi with a heat gun from our shrink-wrapper and the model turned brown and started smoking before it lost any form or detail. this isnt the same material as the FW stuff and isnt going to get all house of wax on you if you leave your case in your car.

[BrokenWing]

What did that Incubus ever do to you?

[faolan]

Plastic takes detail extremely well - it's just that it requires hard steel moulds, which are expensive and don't allow things like whole figures in interesting poses in a single cast. If you make them multi-part, they take detail quite well, otherwise, there's too many undercuts for it to work.

@Reg: I don't take "Flash" into account when judging the quality - what I do judge is massive short-shoot holes, severe bubbling, etc.

[fuzzbuket]

ive just been fixing some old GKT

1/2 inch mold lines

flash everywhere

impossible to glue


I HATE METAL!

[Psychosplodge]

Because plastic tends to hold less detail than Resin. That would be my guess.




Plastic takes detail extremely well - it's just that it requires hard steel moulds, which are expensive and don't allow things like whole figures in interesting poses in a single cast. If you make them multi-part, they take detail quite well, otherwise, there's too many undercuts for it to work.

@Reg: I don't take "Flash" into account when judging the quality - what I do judge is massive short-shoot holes, severe bubbling, etc.

So it's basicly so they dont need new moulds?

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Spoken long and hard on this subject. If they were flawless casts, I'd be very happy. But for a company to bring a product out with so many flaws is inexcusable. Lots of apologists saying 'Oh, but they'll iron out the kinks within 6 months' is NOT acceptable. There should have been very few, if any flaws at all. No excuses for releasing a compromised product. None.

[chromedog]

Finecast is as flawless as Windows Vista.

Or the Xbox, or the xbox 360, or the PS3.

The flaw is in the rushed delivery.

[wittdooley]

The flaw is in the rushed delivery.

This. Unzuul, you're going to hate it regardless. I've purchased 3 Finecast Blisters and 1 Finecast boxed set, and they've all been immaculate.

With lots of the Finecast "issues," if the people complaining would spend more time becoming even novice modellers, then tiny air bubbles wouldn't even present as an issue.

Continue to play with your grey plastic, and enjoy your metal. GW has already made improvements in batch two. Get over it.

[Psychosplodge]

With lots of the Finecast "issues," if the people complaining would spend more time becoming even novice modellers, then tiny air bubbles wouldn't even present as an issue.



This is totally the wrong attitude,
I have very limited free time to spend on this hobby, and don't want to spend what I do have fixing rushed botched miniatures as opposed to doing what I actually want to do.

[wittdooley]

This is totally the wrong attitude,
I have very limited free time to spend on this hobby, and don't want to spend what I do have fixing rushed botched miniatures as opposed to doing what I actually want to do.

I think maybe I didn't articulate my point well enough. Lemme have another go:

Miscasts are unacceptable. These miscasts are pretty apparent on the Librarians with half the bolter missing, etc. I don't consider slight bubbling to really be miscasts. It happens with the resin, and again, on every model I've worked with they've either been non present, or very minimal and easy to fix with some wet milliput.

Mispacks (my collegue has had two of the same model, both with different miscasts) are more acceptable, but certainly an annoyance.

I think the rushing has a lot to do with the miscasts, as opposed to the process being the problem. If you don't take the time to cast the resin properly, miscasts will happen. The fact that GW has seemingly fixed it on the second batch indicates to me that rushing was the major problem.

Again, my major point is that a lot of people are complaining about minor bubbling which is as quick a fix as gluing the model together. Seriously. You can use your superglue to fill these gaps, too.

[Psychosplodge]

That is explained better, but I'm still reserving judgement...

[daboarder]

The easy solution to resin in heat that I've practiced for years is to just not leave your resin models in high temperature areas for long periods of time. It's like leaving anything else that might otherwise melt in a car on a 90 degree day for an entire day. It's not the material's fault, it's the fault of the person leaving it there. It's kind of like putting all your plastic models in hardcore paint remover and be surprised when they all melt.

Thats all well and good wing, but round here during summer it regularly gets over what you guys would term 110.....and thats in the shade.

[Velium]

So it's basicly so they dont need new moulds?

i take it youve never done anything even remotely involved with casting and don't actually understand the process.

resins and metals can be cast out of hard rubber or softer metal molds. these molds wear out faster (and result in small imperfections like larger pieces of flash) but are far far cheaper and easier to make than the machine-cut high-temp tool quality steel that you need to mold the plastics. also, most resins and metals are cast with the molds on a centrifuge, which requires far less power than it does to power the higher-pressure injection molding equipment (this is somewhat offset by the power consumption of melting the pewter to a liquid state)

to cast plastic models you have an investment of close to 100,000 dollars just to purchase the injection molding machine which pushes the liquid plastic into your stainless steel mold halves at high temperature and pressure. the next thing you need is the mold, which will run you something like 80,000 ish dollars for something simple, like a small vehicle. these molds dont wear out as fast, because theyre machine cut from stainless steel, but you cant get something with a dynamic, 3d pose, out of plastics without them being multiple parts like the space marines are.

you CANT just flat translate the current metal range to plastics, thats not how things work. what they did for finecast was, most likely, recut the molds for the existing models from their original masters and then start spinning out resin figures from those molds.

frankly, im pretty bloody tired of people spitting madness over "why arent all the solos plastic" when they dont understand the first thing about the casting process or about whats involved in making these models.

[Gir]

Thats all well and good wing, but round here during summer it regularly gets over what you guys would term 110.....and thats in the shade.

Damnit man, it 43 degrees. Stop encouraging their dated measurement systems!

[BrokenWing]

And around here it also regularly reaches 90-100 with a lovely amount of humidity added on. I'm not saying this from Alaska or Montana. When I first got my Forge World Keeper of Secrets I was taking it to games several weeks in a row. I had to work through from 8 to 5 in an office and it was 95-100 every single day. Rather than risk leaving it in my car to die, I took it into the office and left it on my desk.

I did accidentally (and stupidly) leave it in my car once, thankfully it was cooler that day, so all that happened was (and i put it on the floor away from windows and heat) the tentacles drooped a little. It also depends on where in your car you leave it. If your model is in the trunk, the trunk is usually at least 20 degrees cooler than the rest of the car, there should be no damage at all to the model that way. Leaving it in the passenger seat or something though is asking for trouble.

[Psychosplodge]

i take it youve never done anything even remotely involved with casting and don't actually understand the process.

resins and metals can be cast out of hard rubber or softer metal molds. these molds wear out faster (and result in small imperfections like larger pieces of flash) but are far far cheaper and easier to make than the machine-cut high-temp tool quality steel that you need to mold the plastics. also, most resins and metals are cast with the molds on a centrifuge, which requires far less power than it does to power the higher-pressure injection molding equipment (this is somewhat offset by the power consumption of melting the pewter to a liquid state)

to cast plastic models you have an investment of close to 100,000 dollars just to purchase the injection molding machine which pushes the liquid plastic into your stainless steel mold halves at high temperature and pressure. the next thing you need is the mold, which will run you something like 80,000 ish dollars for something simple, like a small vehicle. these molds dont wear out as fast, because theyre machine cut from stainless steel, but you cant get something with a dynamic, 3d pose, out of plastics without them being multiple parts like the space marines are.

you CANT just flat translate the current metal range to plastics, thats not how things work. what they did for finecast was, most likely, recut the molds for the existing models from their original masters and then start spinning out resin figures from those molds.

frankly, im pretty bloody tired of people spitting madness over "why arent all the solos plastic" when they dont understand the first thing about the casting process or about whats involved in making these models.

I have vague limited knowledge, not exact to this particular product, Like you seem to massively inflated the tooling costs, unless they are to specific to GW particular machinery ( as we have had tooling and production of an item for less than £3k) fair enough you could be talking across the entire range, but $800k to retool the entire range is peanuts to a company that made (I think) £7M profit last year and is moving to a material 1/5 the cost of metal.

And I was asking why they aren't not rabidly supporting all plastics...

[eldargal]

The retooling has cost millions and it has only been done to a fraction of the range to date.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

If people are happy paying premium prices for a product they then have to fix ('Ooh, I'm an experienced modelling hobbyist, it is SOOO simple to fix only a MORON would complain or be unable to fix it' blah blah), then you're welcome to them. When the casts are perfect, Finecast is INCREDIBLE. Great material, great clarity of detail, fantastic. This occurs, in my experience, 1 in 17 casts. Until this imporves, I won't be buying it. As I've said before, just because Apple/Microsoft/whoever bring out flawed products and expect people to put up with them, doesn't mean that should become an acceptable business practice.

[wittdooley]

. Leaving it in the passenger seat or something though is asking for trouble.

I feel like on this thread I should point out that this statement applies to children, as well.

And to counter you, Unzuul, I'm 11 for 11 in models that look great. I had a packing problem with one, but it had nothing to do with the casting.

Finecast is lighter. Finecast models won't break as easily. Finecast is more convertible. Finecast won't chip as bad as metal.

So yes, it is superior. If you can't fix an air bubble in a model, then don't buy them. I hear GW has some snap kits for you to put together. Duplo may also be a viable alternative for you. They have kits with horses and rabbits and cows.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Well now I don't have time to do any modelling or painting due to having to sew my sides up from your hilarious retorts. Seriously, if you're not on a comedy panel show by the end of the day then someone is not doing their job properly.

Let's try again - you should not HAVE to fix a model up, and I'm not talking about little bubbles which as you've so helpfully (and arrogantly) pointed out are easy to fix. I'm talking about large bubbles which have destroyed detail. So you've had all good Finecast models? Bully for you, throw a street party. Others have NOT been as fortunate as you. I fail to see why you cannot understand that. Either you're a competent troller or you've really made me believe in reincarnation - no-one could possibly get THAT stupid in just one life time...

[wittdooley]

Well now I don't have time to do any modelling or painting due to having to sew my sides up from your hilarious retorts. Seriously, if you're not on a comedy panel show by the end of the day then someone is not doing their job properly.

Let's try again - you should not HAVE to fix a model up, and I'm not talking about little bubbles which as you've so helpfully (and arrogantly) pointed out are easy to fix. I'm talking about large bubbles which have destroyed detail. So you've had all good Finecast models? Bully for you, throw a street party. Others have NOT been as fortunate as you. I fail to see why you cannot understand that. Either you're a competent troller or you've really made me believe in reincarnation - no-one could possibly get THAT stupid in just one life time...

Dude, read some of my other posts. I've said repeatedly that miscasts aren't acceptable. People keep complaining about minor bubbling that don't affect anything. Those aren't miscasts. They happen on nearly ALL resin kits, particularly if they're created in any kind of volume. I have two Studio McVey kits that had some minor bubbling. And you're right I've arrogantly stated that they're simple problems to fix. They are.

I've also had metal kits that were cracked, presumably because of something that happend with the cooling process. Further, I've had plastic kits where the injection fill wasn't complete. It. Happens.

Metal kits suffer all sorts of problems. No one complains about them because we're so used to them. I'll take minor bubbling 8 days a week overhaving to deal with the spin-cast nippling of metal, particularly finding some after I've primed a model.

I completely understand that others have had problems. You can't blatantly ignore the benefits of the Finecast over metal simply because there have been miscasting problems with a minority of the models. That's my point. The product is SUPERIOR, even despite the issues.

[Kawauso]

If people are happy paying premium prices for a product they then have to fix ('Ooh, I'm an experienced modelling hobbyist, it is SOOO simple to fix only a MORON would complain or be unable to fix it' blah blah), then you're welcome to them.

See...this is the part of the anti-Finecast sentiment I'm not really understanding.

That statement describes
every
model
GW
has
made
ever.

Getting rid of flash and mould lines? That's fixing a model for which you paid a premium price.

You can't tell me that you've never, ever started painting a primed metal model of yours and then noticed several irritating little bits of venting that you hadn't seen beforehand, which chip whatever paint/primer you have on the model when you've gone to remove them.

And on the older plastic kits (Tactical Marines, Imperial Guardsmen), the amount of mould lines at times is unbelievable!

I also don't believe that everyone raging against Finecast has never experienced miscast metal or plastic kits.

I should be getting a trio of Zoanthropes soon (who knows with Canada Post being on strike :p ), but then I'll finally be able to weigh in on Finecast myself...looking forward to that. I have a feeling it won't be nearly as bad as some people would have me believe.

[BrokenWing]

All your models will be melted.:D

[Drunkencorgimaster]

Love my Valhallans. Love 'em more if they were resin. Sick of re-painting chipped fluffy hats and weapons. Dear Metal, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[wittdooley]

All your models will be melted.:D

They'll probably also cause cancer, result in Sarah Palin becoming the next US President, and could quite possibly award Kim Jong-Il with the Nobel Peace Prize.

Consider yourself warned.

[BrokenWing]

Intentionally cause cancer because GW is lying. Don't forget that =).

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

@Kawauso - Actually, you're right in regards to cleaning up models of flash and that, can't argue there. You're right I never actually got any miscast plastic or metal miniatures in the 22 years I've been collecting GW stuff. Lucky me I guess.

It is easy to fill small air bubbles, that much is true. Rebuilding fine detail which has been obliterated by bubbles isn't. Yes, I can take it back to the shop. Yes, I could not buy them at all. But GODDAMMIT WHEN THEY ARE GOOD THEY ARE REALLY GOOD! Perhaps I am far too addicted to the plastic (and now resin) crack to give any sensible standpoint. I just believe if a product is flawed (in terms of DDB - detail destroying bubbling) and a LOT of people have had to return their items, the best thing for their customer base would be to withdraw those which show the most consistent problems and fix them (i.e. the Terminator Librarian, which has bad reports across England) so as to spare their customers the inconvenience of returning them. Please note, the 'inconvenience' of returning items is entirely subjective and situational.

[Aldramelech]

All you finecast fans should have just taken up smoking, it would have been cheaper and in the end will have much the same effect as all that resin crap your inhaling.............

[Denzark]

Words of wisdom from the immortal Mr A!!! Hussah!

[wittdooley]

All you finecast fans should have just taken up smoking, it would have been cheaper and in the end will have much the same effect as all that resin crap your inhaling.............

What "resin crap" am I inhaling? I haven't had to sand a thing.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

So THAT'S what they're doing with the miscasts...

[Deadlift]

I rang GW central today about my miscast finecast Dante. I had a pleasant talk with the sales rep about the problem with the model and then he agreed to send me a replacement asap. I have had metal models sent to me in the past as a replacement for faulty models and always been told to keep or throw the original away. However this time I was asked to return the faulty finecast model. It's a free post address so no cost to me but this is the 1st time in the 6 years I have been a collector that I have been asked to return a faulty item. Maybe GW are looking into what customers are willing to accept and not accept as far as quality of cast is concerned ?