Falchions Nerfed. Really?

[Lord Gir]

... Really?
In the GK codex, no GK unit can have the +1A bonus for 2 close combat weapons other than by taking falchions. Now that falchions have been FAQ'd to say that they only allow +1A not +2A the intertubes is calling foul and declaring falchions to be a completely useless and stupid option that no one would ever take.

This seems pretty dumb to me. Let's make a comparison.

In C:SM a tactical squad sergeant is armed with a Bolt Pistol and a Close Combat Weapon, this gives him +1A making him pretty cool in CC, having 3 attacks. Now (excuse me for not having the codex on hand) from memory, the sergeant is able to upgrade this to a power weapon for something in the vicinty of 10-15 pts. This leaves him with 3 power weapon attacks, and he is the only model in his squad that can take this. The cost of this upgrade is, notwithstanding the initial 10(15) pt outlay for the power sword/axe/kneepad/what-have-you, is a reduction in his potential fire output. The sergeant must exchange his boltgun to get the +1A.

Now let's look at the GK falchions.

A GK in terminator armour pays 5 pts to get +1A. This gives him 3 force weapon attacks. A quick reminder for those of limited attention span: A force weapon is a power weapon that can cause instant death when a successful psychic test is made. Does the GK terminator lose anything? Yes. He loses the 4++ in CC and reverts to his 5++. But he gets to keep his 24", 2 shot assault weapon, losing none of his ranged power, and only gaining in CC power.

A GK in power armour pays 10 pts for the falchions. Why? He loses nothing. He just gets an extra force weapon attack added to his base attacks.

All models in these squads can take falchions. OUCH!

Can someone please explain to me why the falchion has all of a sudden been "nerfed"?

P.S. - The term nerfed confuses me. Nerf guns f*****g rule!

[BrokenWing]

On Terminators, you an still make an argument (also on characters) for their use. I have come to this conclusion after much consideration with my own army list.

You can't for anything else in the book. 100 points for an extra attack for 10 guys is too many when you can often just make them initiative 6 for fewer points. Before, you could make an argument for either upgrade, now you can't. It's not a matter of being useless, it's a matter of not being worth the points, except, arguably, on Terminators.

[blackarmchair]

Falchions were never bad, and they certainly aren't now. People just gripe about FAQs no matter what.

[wkz]

As someone else said in another thread, you're getting a +1 Force Weapon, Daemonbane, "Can be stacked +1S multiple times" Attack on a dude who's not going to die anytime soon...

Also, your example is a bit unfair: If you're buying a Power Weapon, you're obviously upgrading the Sgt's squad with a focus in close combat ability. Those 15 points also pay for upgrading THREE attacks into power weapon attacks (that's 5 pts per attack for a total of 15pts). That's a really cheap and good buy to be honest (the drawback being the possibility your opponent may attack you with a high-toughness something/a Dreadnought, and a power weapon just simply being unable to handle it)

For the closest similar ranged upgrade, you pay 15pts to upgrade TWO rapid fire shots into Plasma shots... which more likely than not will kill the poor model holding the weapon :D

[BrokenWing]

Sorry, but I just don't buy the "but it's another force weapon" argument. It's not another force weapon, it's another attack. I don't get to super force weapon you.

[DarkLink]

I wouldnt complain, since it still isn a bad weapon. The fact that it is outshined by halberds isnt something to complain about with how good the overall codex is.

[BrokenWing]

If people are mistaking what I'm saying for complaining they're wrong. I'm just pointing out that Falchions are *typically* not the better option because of the FAQ.

[C.of.N.finity]

As someone else said in another thread, you're getting a +1 Force Weapon, Daemonbane, "Can be stacked +1S multiple times" Attack on a dude who's not going to die anytime soon...


No, thats not what I'm getting for those 10 points. I'm getting only +1 attack and it's not worth it, making the option useless. When I pay for 20 point troops with vanilla marine stat lines, that where the cost for force weapons, demonbane, etc. comes in.

I would rather have cheaper troops then upgrade my Justicar with the force weapon and pay the cost that way. This way I'm not spreading all the expense across the entire unit that, contrary to popular belief, die as easily as any other MEQ troop. What ends up happening is as the unit takes casualties (most often before they get to their target, which is normal) I get a deminished return on my investment.

Instead I get expensive troops, justified by the abilities and force weapons they have. So what am I expected to pay 10 points per trooper for? +1 attack, thats it. It's not super special awesome, it's only one attack, and it's effectivly useless.

[Xas]

the joke really lies in the pricing for other units.

would you rather have a 2A GK with a base lds of 8 for 30pts or a 3A Purificator with a base lds of 9 for 29pts?

[C.of.N.finity]

the joke really lies in the pricing for other units.

would you rather have a 2A GK with a base lds of 8 for 30pts or a 3A Purificator with a base lds of 9 for 29pts?

Sorry, I misunderstood your post. Now that I've removed head from rectum, I agree with you. I try and justify it though with the GKSS ability to deep strike thus eliminating the cost of a transport.

[Tynskel]

As someone else said in another thread, you're getting a +1 Force Weapon, Daemonbane, "Can be stacked +1S multiple times" Attack on a dude who's not going to die anytime soon...



That was me!

[Tynskel]

Sorry, but I just don't buy the "but it's another force weapon" argument. It's not another force weapon, it's another attack. I don't get to super force weapon you.

the point is that most cases that add +1 attack for free are increasing attacks on non-power weapons.

There is a significant advantage to gaining +1 attack for a power weapon, let alone a strength buffing daemonbane force weapon attack.

anytime you are adding +1 attack to power weapons, you have to pay through the nose: 15 points for a power weapon, or lets say death company, the models are already 35 points each, AND you must pay 15 for the power weapon.

or look at vanguard 30 points each AND you must pay 15 points for the power weapon.

Space marine sgt. they are 30 points + 15 for the power weapon.


You are not going to win me over for paying 5-10 points for Force Weapon, strength enhancing, Daemonbane weapons is too many points.

[scadugenga]

the joke really lies in the pricing for other units.

would you rather have a 2A GK with a base lds of 8 for 30pts or a 3A Purificator with a base lds of 9 for 29pts?

Shhh!

It's GW's secret marketing ploy to make you take/buy Crowe so you can field your purifiers as troops. :)

[MaltonNecromancer]

I was a bit surprised to learn that people needed it to be FAQed. I had assumed that you only got +1 attack for 2 close combat weapons, not +1 and another +1.

I still think they're pretty awesome, but only on the right troops; on Terminators and Strike Squads, Halberds are the only choice that makes sense to me, because +2 Initiative makes your squads significantly more survivable as you'll take less hits (from everything except Genestealers and a few other elite CC specialists).

However, given to Purifiers, Falchions work because they're only 3pts more expensive than Halberds for them, and the amount of attacks you can inflict is horrible.

Hence, everything in my army has Halberds except Purifiers (who are going to go off Gaunt/IG/Ork/Guardian hunting, and leave the elite CC to the Psycannons).

[Kawauso]

I'm also surprised that people are so shocked by this.

Heck, the last issue of WD even specifically called out falchions as granting +1A at one point (page 61, under "Nemesis I Name Thee").

[DarkLink]

No one cares about White Dwarf. It's just empty GW fanservice. If they ever start adding more stuff like the Eldar Nightspinner, then it might be interesting.




or look at vanguard 30 points each AND you must pay 15 points for the power weapon.

Space marine sgt. they are 30 points + 15 for the power weapon.


You are not going to win me over for paying 5-10 points for Force Weapon, strength enhancing, Daemonbane weapons is too many points.

Except all these examples is taking a non-power weapon guy and giving him a power weapon. A falchion, however, is taking a guy with I6, or a better invulnerable save, or a thunderhammer, and losing that and replacing that bonus for a certain number of points.

And all of those 'for 10 points per model, you can get a bonus attack' upgrades suck anyways. Taking a 20pt model and making it 30pts for a measly +1A is stupid. It's a poor upgrade choice in several codices, and in the case of falchions it's bad because the other NFWs are so good.

[Bean]

I play paladins, and I'd pretty much always rather spend 5 points master-crafting a halberd than buying falchions--master crafting is very similar to buying an extra attack, and that way I get the +2 initiative, too.

[Kawauso]

No one cares about White Dwarf. It's just empty GW fanservice. If they ever start adding more stuff like the Eldar Nightspinner, then it might be interesting.


That's got nothing to do with anything.
It's written by the guys who make the game.
If they say an item works a certain way, guess what? It probably works that way. That's all I was saying. :P

[BrokenWing]

Since I haven't looked at a WD in years, I'm just going to ignore it for this argument.

Let's all be really clear as to what Falchions actually do.

They give a model +1 attack. They do not give it "an extra force weapon" (whatever that even means), they don't give it another "demon bane, strength enhancing weapon" because demon bane is a rule the Grey Knight has, not the weapon, nor would having two of them actually accomplish anything extra special anyway and they do not enhance the GK's strength, that's a psychic power you already pay for when you buy the squad.
If you have a force weapon, and you pick up a knife, it gives you +1 attack. In this case, you're picking up a shiny knife, that gives you +1 attack.


Lets look at it from the point of view of Bob the Terminator (hi bob). Bob has a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat and 2 attacks, 3 if he charges. If his friend Fred drops his force weapon and picks up a flag, he now has 3 attacks, 4 if he charges. Now let's say Bob wants another attack. Well, now his invulnerable save just got worse, and he paid 5 points to do it. He gets another attack but see the frown? That's because he had to pay 5 points for something that costs everyone else 1 point and lost his better save in the process. Bob is sad.

Or Bob could get a worse invulnerable save but strike at initiative 6, meaning he'll probably just kill whoever was going to hit him anyway. This is free. Bob is happy again.

I'm not saying Falchions should cost only one point per guy, or be free (Although Bob might make that argument) but if you want people to take them more frequently, 5 points is probably too much. There is still some room for debate with Bob though, because it's only 5 points.

Now if you look at Jim the Interceptor, he has to pay 10 points. This makes him pretty unhappy, because he's probably going to have fewer of his Interceptor friends hanging around. If he doesn't, his player is going to be *really* unhappy, because he paid 100 points to give a squad what amounts to an extra close combat weapon, that's pretty lame.

I think Falchions probably have the strongest case for usability with Purifiers. They cost 5 points and Halberds cost 2, the difference between them and Terminators is that Terminators are losing abilities to take Falchions, Purifiers are not. My guess is Frank the Purifier will have a big grin on hi s face either way (but not Timmy the Gaunt).

[Regnir]

That's got nothing to do with anything.
It's written by the guys who make the game.
If they say an item works a certain way, guess what? It probably works that way. That's all I was saying. :P

Actually, WD battle reports aren't the greatest place to take rules clarifications from because it is quite common for the individuals writing the report/playing the game to make mistakes and then print those mistakes. It's happened quite a bit in the last few years.

Though you're certainly correct that DarkLinks reasons for not paying attention to a rules issue in a WD battle report certainly have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[DarkLink]

Well, my point is that not many people actually read WD, so not many would know about any rules mentioned there in its battle reports.

Plus, I've seen WD reports that got rules flat-out wrong before, so unless you could directly source the comment to the codex author as opposed to some nameless GW employee, it's a little suspect.

[Kawauso]

P.60 under heading "Tactica - Grey Knights": "Are you worthy to command such a force? Matt Ward says he is, and has set out to prove it in this tactica."

P.61 con't heading "Nemesis, I Name Thee" from P.60: "Against horde armies like Orks or Tyranids, take Nemesis falchions for +1 attack per model."

I know not everyone reads WD - especially compared to how many people play the game. I'm just saying this makes it pretty clear that the intent from the start was always +1 attack for falchions, not +2, and people have been interpreting it incorrectly (not that GW is free of blame in this, of course; they need to learn how to write clearer rules...this just reinforces my opinion that they are artists and writers first, and game designers second).

[Kawauso]

Actually, WD battle reports aren't the greatest place to take rules clarifications from because it is quite common for the individuals writing the report/playing the game to make mistakes and then print those mistakes. It's happened quite a bit in the last few years.

Though you're certainly correct that DarkLinks reasons for not paying attention to a rules issue in a WD battle report certainly have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I know that they make mistakes in their battle reports - there's even an obvious error in the article I'm talking about. Everyone makes mistakes - even editors. But for the record, it was a GK tactica article written by Matt Ward, not a battle report.

[BrokenWing]

That's fine, but since I never read it, I'm not about to make an argument based on it. Nor really is my intent in any of these discussions to try and argue that GW somehow has it wrong, or that the FAQ wasn't how they always intended Falchions to be used. I am, however, saying that with the exception of (sometimes) Terminators and (possibly) Purifiers Falchions are not worth it, this is a design flaw in the points costs of the upgrades available to the units.

As for the Matt Ward comment you quoted...he's clearly suggesting people tailor their list to their opponent. This is all well and good if you play against people who don't think it's poor sportsmanship at best, but it's really horrible for anyone planning on tournament play, where you can't tailor your list. When making a non-tailored list expected to take on anyone you might come across, you need the best out of your points, and that will frequently mean not taking that particular upgrade.

It's all interesting, that's for sure.

[wkz]

...
Lets look at it another way, on another model: The Warboss.

The Warboss can get an attack squig for 15 points. Yup, that's 5 points more than you gray knight dudes, sounds expensive, right?

Note that this is on a model who'd already have 4 attacks base, toughness 5, 3 wounds and able to amp up its defense to 4+/5++. Sure, the armor save is a bit weak (Warbosses have a tendency to bounce off stuff with armor-ignoring weapons), but on a good day a Warboss will be able to have more than 4~5 turns in close combat attacks. That's 4~5 more close combat attacks for the entire game.

Not only that, WHAT that +1A is, is important. A bare bones Warboss will have +1A... at Str 5 (6 on charge). A Warboss with a Big Choppa will have that same +1A at Str7 (8 on charge). But most people will probably give the Warboss a Claw, which means that +1A is an armor-ignoring, Str10 attack! For the same price!! What a bargain!!

At the end of the day, you gotta look at the big picture, looking at all the nuances of the unit, support units around it, army-wide rules, etc... And at the end of the day, +1A at 5 points, given that the weapon is base Str4 armor ignoring, force weapon on a combat monster with good saves AND able to be str boosted? My Warboss will KILL for that, to be honest.

[BrokenWing]

Yeah and it was the big picture that made me *not* want to take Falchions on my terminators in my standard list. Will there be times when I want to? Yes. Will I probably pay the 100 points for a squad of interceptors to have them? Probably. Will I more often use a different weapon? Most certainly. I just know that when the FAQ came out and I spent time analyzing my list I was able to make use of those falchion points for another upgrade somewhere else that will be more useful now.

[Aegis]

To me, it seems like falchions become a poor decision if you plan on outfitting the entire squad with them. However, their cost is hardly prohibitive if you merely sprinkle the unit with some for the extra attack.

I have been running a unit of interceptors with a hammer, three halberds and a set of falchions, and have seen rather good results with it. The halberds strike first usually, whittle the enemy down, falchions strike at the same time, usually, with a diminished number of return attacks (giving me the advantage of weight of numbers at this point), and the hammer squishes whatever is left.

Basically, I think we are looking at the falchions with the wrong approach. I do not think they were ever intended to be taken en masse, but rather as supplements to the unit. In fact, that is how a lot of the wargear for the GK's seem to operate.

But then, this is simply my opinion, and may be coloured by personal experience.

[HsojVvad]

Since I haven't looked at a WD in years, I'm just going to ignore it for this argument.

Let's all be really clear as to what Falchions actually do.

They give a model +1 attack. They do not give it "an extra force weapon" (whatever that even means), they don't give it another "demon bane, strength enhancing weapon" because demon bane is a rule the Grey Knight has, not the weapon, nor would having two of them actually accomplish anything extra special anyway and they do not enhance the GK's strength, that's a psychic power you already pay for when you buy the squad.
If you have a force weapon, and you pick up a knife, it gives you +1 attack. In this case, you're picking up a shiny knife, that gives you +1 attack.


Lets look at it from the point of view of Bob the Terminator (hi bob). Bob has a 4+ invulnerable save in close combat and 2 attacks, 3 if he charges. If his friend Fred drops his force weapon and picks up a flag, he now has 3 attacks, 4 if he charges. Now let's say Bob wants another attack. Well, now his invulnerable save just got worse, and he paid 5 points to do it. He gets another attack but see the frown? That's because he had to pay 5 points for something that costs everyone else 1 point and lost his better save in the process. Bob is sad.

Or Bob could get a worse invulnerable save but strike at initiative 6, meaning he'll probably just kill whoever was going to hit him anyway. This is free. Bob is happy again.

I'm not saying Falchions should cost only one point per guy, or be free (Although Bob might make that argument) but if you want people to take them more frequently, 5 points is probably too much. There is still some room for debate with Bob though, because it's only 5 points.

Now if you look at Jim the Interceptor, he has to pay 10 points. This makes him pretty unhappy, because he's probably going to have fewer of his Interceptor friends hanging around. If he doesn't, his player is going to be *really* unhappy, because he paid 100 points to give a squad what amounts to an extra close combat weapon, that's pretty lame.

I think Falchions probably have the strongest case for usability with Purifiers. They cost 5 points and Halberds cost 2, the difference between them and Terminators is that Terminators are losing abilities to take Falchions, Purifiers are not. My guess is Frank the Purifier will have a big grin on hi s face either way (but not Timmy the Gaunt).

Maybe they should play Tyranids then. Then you don't have to worry about getting +1 A or +2 A at all then. Talk about paying for points and not getting anything in return like other armies.

I find it funny how a squad of 20 hormies can have the same attacks of 5 or 10 SM or Temrinators. Pretty sad you double or triple the minis but have the same A.

[BrokenWing]

I think most people agree that the Tyranid codex has major issues.

[Soam]

To me, it seems like falchions become a poor decision if you plan on outfitting the entire squad with them. However, their cost is hardly prohibitive if you merely sprinkle the unit with some for the extra attack.

I have been running a unit of interceptors with a hammer, three halberds and a set of falchions, and have seen rather good results with it. The halberds strike first usually, whittle the enemy down, falchions strike at the same time, usually, with a diminished number of return attacks (giving me the advantage of weight of numbers at this point), and the hammer squishes whatever is left.

Basically, I think we are looking at the falchions with the wrong approach. I do not think they were ever intended to be taken en masse, but rather as supplements to the unit. In fact, that is how a lot of the wargear for the GK's seem to operate.

But then, this is simply my opinion, and may be coloured by personal experience.

My 2 cents for what its worth... The problem comes in when you compare them with the other options you can get for less points. I6 is massive, allowing you to kill your opponent before they can strike is a great way to win CC. Take out those falchions in your interceptor squad and put in halberds and tell me if they survive longer. Personally I wouldn't take any upgrades on an interceptor squad as they are purchased cheaper on other units. The only time I ever see taking falchions would be when accompanied by a Librarian for that sweet quicksilver buff, but even then... Whats better, upgrading 2(Or 4 depending on the unit) guys with +1 attack or giving a 10 man squad psybolt ammo?

[Nabterayl]

I wonder how the GW folks feel about "list tailoring." In my group we think nothing of telling each other what armies we plan to play before a game, which The Internet(TM) seems to frown upon. I'm not sure GW does, though.

I6 is great if you don't have any reasonable guess as to what kind of opponent you'll be facing. If you know you're facing orks of some variety, falchions look a lot better.

[BrokenWing]

Personally I despise list tailoring, it doesn't help you become a better player at all. Especially if you plan to go to tournaments.

[Nabterayl]

That may be so, but it might help explain some of the things we see.

"Becoming a better player" isn't necessarily something people value, after all, or value very much. They might place greater value becoming a better tactician, or telling the story of a particular campaign, or a particular unit. Depending on the narrative you're telling and the level of list tailoring you're talking about, "list tailoring" might be very much in the spirit of the game. I'm just wondering what spirit(s) GW values when it thinks about these sorts of issues.


"Before we can close the Warp portal, brothers, we must first fend off the incoming greenskins. Choose your weapons and bless them, that they - Brother Arias, why is your hand on that halberd?"

"Well, I wouldn't want some ork to hit me before I hit him!"

"Brother Arias, when was the last time an ork hit you first?"

"Well, never, but -"

"You do realize there are ten thousand of them out there, right?"

"Yes, I know, but -"

"And we brought this entire armory all the way from Titan for a reason, right?"

"I -"

"And you are qualified expert with every weapon here, are you not?"

"Of course, but -"

"But what, Brother Arias?"

"Well, I don't know. Switching weapons based on who we expect to fight today? It just seems so ... unsporting."

[BrokenWing]

We know GW has supported list tailoring (to an extreme) for a long time. Unfortunately for them, alot of people don't play that way and that's why you end up with people who don't like the point cost of a falchion because if they're making a list and know it has to deal with multiple types of armies, they just can't swap out weapons as they please.