New FAQ and psychic shooting attacks

[pigei]

The new FAQ clearly states that any psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit.

If my interpretation is correct, from now on, the Space Wolves power Murderous Hurricane must roll to hit even if the text states that the target unit suffers 3D6 hits.

Am I right?

[Fellend]

That would seem so. First you roll to hit then you decide how many hits you get.

[wkz]

The big problem here is the good old Codex > Rulebook. I don't know how Murderous Hurricane is written, but if the Codex have a "firing sequence" that modifies how a psychic shooting attack is shot, that "firing sequence" will overwrite the BRB's Shooting Phase rules.

This also applies to Space Wolves' Jaws power, just a note.

[Quaade]

I just checked, they are just psychic shooting attacks, nothing else, so they just lost some hotness factor considering they are on BS 4 guys :p
Also quite fair to the slower MC that there are two rolls involved in their survival against Jaws.

[wkz]

I STILL don't know about Murderous Hurricane, but there is absolutely no way JotWW is affected by this FAQ.

IIRC, when "firing" JotWW: Draw a line. All models on that line takes a Initiative test, or is removed from game with no saves allowed.

This sentence on "Firing" JotWW will simply overwrite the "1-LOS and Nominate target", "2-Check range", "3-Roll to hit", etc of the Shooting phase rules in the Rulebook.

ONLY when a shooting attack does not mention such special rules to "fire" a power (for example, Doombolt) will a model need to actually roll "To Hit" using its BS to actually fire that power.

At least, that's what I think... gotta get my hands on C:SW to re-verify my position....

[SotonShades]

Psychic shooting attacks only roll to hit if they have a weapon-like profile, so with a Range, Strength and AP, so JotWW isn't affected at all.

Not having a SW codex I can't say about Murderous Hurricane.

If it simply says 'target suffers 3D6, Strength xXx hits', then no it wouldn't.
If it's something along the lines of 'Range 24", Strength xXx, Ap yYy, Assault/Rapid Fire/Heavy 3D6' then you would roll to hit (and roll 3D6 first to see how many shots you have to roll to hit for).

[Quaade]

Psychic shooting attacks only roll to hit if they have a weapon-like profile, so with a Range, Strength and AP, so JotWW isn't affected at all.
[/LIST]

According to the rulebook page 50, section Psychic Shooting Attacks, that's not the definition.

A psychic shooting attack is something that you do in your shooting phase and comes instead of using a weapon. furthermore you must fullfilll all the normal criteria for being able to shoot at any given target.

By that definition, all psychic shooting attacks, no matter their source or describtion (other than "hits automatically" and template), must roll to hit on BS.

[Nungunz]

Going to play Devil's Advocate here and agree with above for the sake of discussion. Roll Psychic test, roll to hit first target, if first target is hit then draw the line and the power carries out as described.

It says psychic shooting attack. Pyschic shooting attacks must roll to hit. I don't see anything that says otherwise.

[Demonus]

faq states:

Q: What psychic powers count as psychic shooting
attacks? (p50)
A: Any psychic power with a profile like that of a
ranged weapon (i.e. has a range, strength and AP
value) and any psychic power that specifically states
that it is a psychic shooting attack.


Murderous Hurricane is affected as it states it is a psychic shooting attack, has a range, a str, and AP. Hell I always rolled to hit for it.

JoWW is also a psychic shooting attack, so should be affected, however I am not sure what you are rolling to hit. You extend a line straight out from the RP. GW obviously didnt think this one through.

[DarkLink]

Does gw ever think its rules through, really?

[Wildeybeast]

That would seem so. First you roll to hit then you decide how many hits you get.

Would you not roll the 3D6 first, then roll the relevant number of dice to see which ones hit?

[lostinnm]

Murderous hurricane still causes 3d6 hits even with the new FAQ. Because Codex trumps BRB when there is a contradiction, Murderous Hurricane's wording specifically states that it causes 3d6 hits. Until the codex is changed, or a FAQ changes the wording of the power itself, the spell will cause hits, and not require rolling to hit. Nothing the BRB FAQ says can change it.

[bluesickboy]

Q. Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or
wound its target to affect them? (p37)
A. No, a targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane
even if the power fails to hit or wound.

SW FAQ

fails to HIT, needs to roll to hit.

Q. Does Jaws of the World Wolf require line of sight?
Does it ignore terrain that blocks line of sight (i.e.,
impassable terrain)? (p37)
A. As a psychic shooting attack, Jaws of the World Wolf
requires line of sight. The Rune Priest must have line of
sight to the first model that the power affects – in effect he
is treated as the target model; the power just happens to
hit everybody else on its way through!

Psychic Shooting attack, but i see it more as a template weapon...

i'd say no to hit roll

[UltramarineFan]

First people thinking you could try the same pyschic power twice in a turn and now this.. does no one in the us do psychic powers the way they're done in the uk by most people??
SotonShades has it right with his definition, if something says 'the target suffers x hits' then you don't roll to hit because you are being told how many times you hit in the first place! And does this mean that before this FAQ people weren't rolling to hit with powers like Smite??

[Nabterayl]

I think it's pretty clear that the new FAQ is a general-case scenario. It certainly doesn't override the codices, any more than the main rules ever do.

The thing about Murderous Hurricane is that the FAQ implies that they meant to amend the rulebook, only they didn't. The codex says, "This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3d6 Strength 3 hits with AP -." The FAQ says, "Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or wound its target to affect them?"

GW thinks of its FAQs as clarifications (and no, UltramarineFan, everybody I know has always treated psychic shooting attacks the way you apparently think of as normal). So the question we need to ask ourselves is, is there a way to read the codex such that it requires a roll to hit?

The answer is yes. Murderous Hurricane requires a single roll to hit, and if the attack hits, it will inflict 3d6 S3 AP- hits. This interpretation fits the FAQ, and it fits the codex.

Consider: if this is the way Murderous Hurricane works, the codex would need to say "the target unit takes 3d6 Strength 3 hits with AP -." The rune priest doesn't get 3d6 shots, so the codex couldn't just give a regular weapon profile. Nor does the target unit take 3d6 wounds, so the codex still has to say "hits."

And thus, we have deduced the original meaning of Murderous Hurricane.

[Lerra]

Hmm, I have to say that's the first mention I've heard of those particular mechanics for Murderous Hurricane, but I have to admit it makes a lot of sense.

[wkz]

First people thinking you could try the same pyschic power twice in a turn and now this.. does no one in the us do psychic powers the way they're done in the uk by most people??
SotonShades has it right with his definition, if something says 'the target suffers x hits' then you don't roll to hit because you are being told how many times you hit in the first place! And does this mean that before this FAQ people weren't rolling to hit with powers like Smite??Erm... the fact there is a "40k Rules" forum with lots of active discussion in the first place means not a lot of us interpret the rules similarly.


Ok, I'm on shaky ground here (I'm not fully convinced of my position myself) (plus my "debate opponent" is Nabterayl?!? oh... boy...)
BUT:

I think it's pretty clear that the new FAQ is a general-case scenario. It certainly doesn't override the codices, any more than the main rules ever do.

The thing about Murderous Hurricane is that the FAQ implies that they meant to amend the rulebook, only they didn't. The codex says, "This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3d6 Strength 3 hits with AP -." The FAQ says, "Does Murderous Hurricane require the power to hit or wound its target to affect them?"

GW thinks of its FAQs as clarifications (and no, UltramarineFan, everybody I know has always treated psychic shooting attacks the way you apparently think of as normal). So the question we need to ask ourselves is, is there a way to read the codex such that it requires a roll to hit?

The answer is yes. Murderous Hurricane requires a single roll to hit, and if the attack hits, it will inflict 3d6 S3 AP- hits. This interpretation fits the FAQ, and it fits the codex.

Consider: if this is the way Murderous Hurricane works, the codex would need to say "the target unit takes 3d6 Strength 3 hits with AP -." The rune priest doesn't get 3d6 shots, so the codex couldn't just give a regular weapon profile. Nor does the target unit take 3d6 wounds, so the codex still has to say "hits."

And thus, we have deduced the original meaning of Murderous Hurricane.
I disagree, and for my evidence I quote the rulebook:


Pg 17: Roll to hit
To determine if the firing models have hit their target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. ...

Pg 19: Roll to Wound
Hitting your target is not always enough ... (etc) To decide if a hit causes a telling wound ...

It is pretty clear here: The word "HITS" is the language used for the shots AFTER "Roll to hit", but BEFORE "Roll to wound" of the shooting phase. As a matter of fact, to convert shooting into "Hits", the language used (as above) is "SHOTS"

Shots -> Hits -> Wounds.

Here's the thing: is this language STILL the same for the Codexes?
Murderous Hurricane describes a shooting attack that has a circular range, and units in the range receiving 3D6 HITS.

BUT

Ork Codex have powers which will produce blasts... but "Models under the blast are automatically hit."

A brief runthrough of several other codexes (I have consulted BA, Orkz, GK, but have not looked at DE and SM) reveals similar language: either the models are "HIT" or they are "Automatically HIT".

Which brings us to a curious point in rule interpretation: WHY the wording "Automatically HIT"? A hit, in rulebook's language, means you've already passed the stage of rolling to hit, thus adding "automatically" is a bit of redundant language now, isn't it?

... but (and this is why I'm shaky in my own position) it makes sense if the "HITS" as mentioned is actually "Roll to hits". This will require twisting away from the language of the rulebook (which is BAD. Seriously), but that would mean each unit takes 3D6 shots to the face, and you're still required to roll a handful of dice to actually HIT the models of the unit.
(By the way, can someone dig up what the Monolith's Gauss Flux Arc's exact wording is? I would think it is relevant to this discussion)
... but it ALSO makes sense if the "HITS" have already bypassed the "roll to hits". (edit: strongest interpretation, IMO)
... but it STILL also makes sense if we follow Nabterayl's "1 roll to hit equals 3D6 Hits" interpretation (edit: Although I think this is the weakest of the three...)

Bah, 3 different interpretation for one power :(


Also:
JotWW draws a line, and all models on that line does not even require a hit: they take an initiative check, and if failed they disappear.

Similarly

Zugstruckk (the special character Wierdboy) chooses an IC within range, and after a dice roll off turns him into a Squig.

And

Ahriman... ... I don't have C:CSM. Can someone check if his wording is similar? (Points at IC, after a non-"roll to hit" and non-"roll to wound", target "poofs")

All these are so very different from the Rulebook's shooting phase. True, they're all shooting attacks, but they do not have a "To Hit", they do not generate "Hits", they do not cause "Wounds", etc. All they do... is described in their powers.

I would say its sorta like the Shokk Attack Gun in the fact that such powers are so different from the norm that they are no longer normal shooting attacks, psychic or otherwise. I don't suppose after an unlucky roll a double 5 for Strength on the Shokk Attack Gun, you'll still need to roll "to hit" before teleporting across the table into assault with the opponent's LandRaider? I don't suppose the Vibro-Cannon needs to roll to hit as it draws its line too?



Edit: Just for more headache inducing "fun" we have the Blood Lance:
Draw a line
All models on the line are "HIT" by something with a Str and AP value.
Are the models hit automatically? Do you still need to roll "To Hit" for each unit? Do you still need to roll "To Hit" for all models within range? Or is the shot unique enough that even if you'd normally need to roll "To Hit", the "To Hit" roll is ignored?

[Nabterayl]

Ok, I'm on shaky ground here (I'm not fully convinced of my position myself) (plus my "debate opponent" is Nabterayl?!? oh... boy...)
BUT:

I disagree, and for my evidence I quote the rulebook:


Pg 17: Roll to hit
To determine if the firing models have hit their target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. ...
I don't disagree with this. What I think the Space Wolves codex is doing is giving us a power that is one shot, but 3d6 hits. Granted, that's highly unusual, but the codex describes it in a highly unusual way.


It is pretty clear here: The word "HITS" is the language used for the shots AFTER "Roll to hit", but BEFORE "Roll to wound" of the shooting phase. As a matter of fact, to convert shooting into "Hits", the language used (as above) is "SHOTS"
I disagree that "hits" is meant to use "number of successful shots." For instance, the ork deffrolla inflicts 1d6 or 2d6 "hits" (depending on circumstance), but it doesn't make any shots, or even any CC attacks. Hence, I think a better understanding of the word "hits" is "potential wounds." Similarly, ramming attacks inflict "hits" without shooting.

I think if we understand the number of "hits" to be divorced entirely from the number of attacks made, and related only to the potential number of wounds, we avoid all of the other interpretive difficulties you quite rightly dug up.


Shots -> Hits -> Wounds.

Here's the thing: is this language STILL the same for the Codexes?
I think the sequence is the same (unless modified, of course, which I don't think MH does), and I think the words are used consistently across rulebook and codex (except that, as above, I disagree that "hits" necessarily has anything to do with shots).

The thing that gets me about MH is that if it was a simple 18" S3 AP- assault3d6 weapon that inflicted Dangerous Terrain and Difficult Terrain, it would have been pretty easy to give it a profile. They did just that with Geri and Freki, after all. Granted, they could be inconsistent on the same page, but the fact that they didn't give MH a regular profile implies to me that it isn't an 18" S3 AP- assault3d6 weapon. Given that there's an interpretation of the text that makes it something other than that, yet still requires a to-hit roll and to-wound rolls as the FAQ clearly assumes the power requires, I'm inclined against the assault3d6 option.


Murderous Hurricane describes a shooting attack that has a circular range, and units in the range receiving 3D6 HITS.
Just to clarify, it doesn't describe a circular range. It attacks a single unit.

[wkz]

I don't disagree with this. What I think the Space Wolves codex is doing is giving us a power that is one shot, but 3d6 hits. Granted, that's highly unusual, but the codex describes it in a highly unusual way.


I disagree that "hits" is meant to use "number of successful shots." For instance, the ork deffrolla inflicts 1d6 or 2d6 "hits" (depending on circumstance), but it doesn't make any shots, or even any CC attacks. Hence, I think a better understanding of the word "hits" is "potential wounds." Similarly, ramming attacks inflict "hits" without shooting.

I think if we understand the number of "hits" to be divorced entirely from the number of attacks made, and related only to the potential number of wounds, we avoid all of the other interpretive difficulties you quite rightly dug up.Indeed. But the fact of the matter is that we've already reached the point where "potential number of wounds" have already been decided.

Just as your DeffRolla example, you'd not need to roll to hit again before or after the deffRolla hits, correct? The HITS have already been inflicted, it is time to move onto Roll To Wounds, correct?



I think the sequence is the same (unless modified, of course, which I don't think MH does), and I think the words are used consistently across rulebook and codex (except that, as above, I disagree that "hits" necessarily has anything to do with shots).Actually, in the sentence you quoted (Shots -> Hits -> Wounds) I have had the arrows mean "resolved into", "converted into", "take a dice and roll it into", etc...

So number of shots/Close combat attacks is "resolved into" number of Hits, which is then "resolved into" number of wounds.

Sorry for not making this clear.


The thing that gets me about MH is that if it was a simple 18" S3 AP- assault3d6 weapon that inflicted Dangerous Terrain and Difficult Terrain, it would have been pretty easy to give it a profile. They did just that with Geri and Freki, after all. Granted, they could be inconsistent on the same page, but the fact that they didn't give MH a regular profile implies to me that it isn't an 18" S3 AP- assault3d6 weapon. Given that there's an interpretation of the text that makes it something other than that, yet still requires a to-hit roll and to-wound rolls as the FAQ clearly assumes the power requires, I'm inclined against the assault3d6 option.And there's the 2nd interpretation: Unlike Geri and Freki, which is a very clear shooting attack requiring a "to hit" roll, MuHu is an auto-Hit on the unit(s) affected.

The FAQ may require a "To Hit" roll for generic psychic shooting attacks, but we DO have precedence for auto-hit weapons (such as a Flamer template) that ignores the To-Hit roll entirely. Does MuHu's HITS represent a bunch of HITS that had bypassed the "To Hit" roll entirely, such as a DeffRolla would?

Edit: Or maybe such auto-To-Hits, inclusive of things such as JotWW, will require to-hits even when their description suggests auto-hit before "to wounded/test or remove without wounds"?

Or maybe it just simply have a unique firing sequence (see below)


Just to clarify, it doesn't describe a circular range. It attacks a single unit.Huh? I thought it attacks ALL units within range? That's why it is not resolved into a simple attack profile after all.

[Nabterayl]

And there's the 2nd interpretation: Unlike Geri and Freki, which is a very clear shooting attack requiring a "to hit" roll, MuHu is an auto-Hit on the unit(s) affected.

The FAQ may require a "To Hit" roll for generic psychic shooting attacks, but we DO have precedence for auto-hit weapons (such as a Flamer template) that ignores the To-Hit roll entirely. Does MuHu's HITS represent a bunch of HITS that had bypassed the "To Hit" roll entirely, such as a DeffRolla would?
Well, it might give us auto-hits. On the pro auto-hitting side, we have the fact that the power just says "the target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits." Ordinarily I would certainly read that as auto-hits.

On the non auto-hitting side, though, we have the Space Wolves FAQ, which says "A targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit." Now, if that were the rulebook FAQ, I'd think nothing of it. But from the codex FAQ, that says to me that any interpretation of Murderous Hurricane that includes auto-hits is wrong.

So the question in my mind is, how can we interpret MH such that it can fail to hit (as the SW FAQ requires), and still inflict 3d6 hits on the target unit? I see two options:
The power is an assault 3d6 weapon.
The power is an assault 1 weapon, with a special rule that says if the attack hits, it inflicts not 1 but 3d6 potential wounds.
The fact that it isn't just given a profile implies to me that the second is more likely.



Huh? I thought it attacks ALL units within range? That's why it is not resolved into a simple attack profile after all.
I don't think so ... the codex says "This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits with AP -. Place a marker next to the affected unit - next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous." That all sounds to me like a power that affects only one unit.

[wkz]

Well, it might give us auto-hits. On the pro auto-hitting side, we have the fact that the power just says "the target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits." Ordinarily I would certainly read that as auto-hits.

On the non auto-hitting side, though, we have the Space Wolves FAQ, which says "A targeted unit is affected by Murderous Hurricane even if the power fails to hit." Now, if that were the rulebook FAQ, I'd think nothing of it. But from the codex FAQ, that says to me that any interpretation of Murderous Hurricane that includes auto-hits is wrong.

So the question in my mind is, how can we interpret MH such that it can fail to hit (as the SW FAQ requires), and still inflict 3d6 hits on the target unit? I see two options:
The power is an assault 3d6 weapon.
The power is an assault 1 weapon, with a special rule that says if the attack hits, it inflicts not 1 but 3d6 potential wounds.
The fact that it isn't just given a profile implies to me that the second is more likely.So the entire core of the argument is that MuHu can "fail to hit" as specified in the FAQ?

...


I don't think so ... the codex says "This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits with AP -. Place a marker next to the affected unit - next turn that unit treats all terrain, even clear terrain, as both difficult and dangerous." That all sounds to me like a power that affects only one unit.
Ah. OK. Thought it was a different beast... guess my BA is a lot safer than I thought they are against MuHu :D

...
...
Given that MuHu affects only one single target, and on top of the FAQ, I guess MuHu just gotten itself "nerfed by FAQ". I would agree on the following as the firing profile for MuHu:


The power is an assault 1 weapon, with a special rule that says if the attack hits, it inflicts not 1 but 3d6 potential wounds.


PS: what are your thoughts on JotWW or other unique firing sequence psychic powers? Will they still need a "To Hit" roll?

[Nabterayl]

PS: what are your thoughts on JotWW or other unique firing sequence psychic powers? Will they still need a "To Hit" roll?
Well, building off my hypothesis that a "hit" is not a "successful attack" but rather a "potential wound," no, I don't think so. Jaws of the World Wolf doesn't cause any wounds at all, so I don't see how it can require a to hit roll - and even if it did, I don't think it would matter. So the power inflicts no wounds. Big deal, it never did. Nothing says that you have to inflict a wound to remove a model from the table :p

EDIT: You know, on reconsidering the Blood Angels FAQ, I think that Blood Lance might require a to hit roll. It is a psychic shooting attack, it evidently does have a target, and its "unit suffers a hit" phrasing is essentially the same as Murderous Hurricane's. I confess I think that's quite silly, but that's currently my best read of the rules.

[pigei]

For the sake of semplicity it might be useful to focus on JoWW:
1) JoWW is a psychic shooting attack.
2) given the new general rule FAQ (v1.3) psychic shooting attacks must roll to hit

thus:
3) you have to roll 1D6 before testing for the models touched by the line


The same reasoning applied to MH would tell me that:
4) you roll 1D6 to hit the enemy unit and then roll 3D6 to allocate wounds

[Nabterayl]

I'm still not sure I agree about JotWW. Unlike Blood Lance, which speaks of target units, Jaws of the World Wolf only says that certain things happen to models that are touched by the line. I don't know that it makes a lot of sense for a power that doesn't cause wounds and doesn't have a target to roll to hit - I mean, if you fail to roll to hit, what's the consequence? You cause no wounds? You miss the target? You never had a target in the first place, and you never caused any wounds.

Blood Lance, even though it has a very similar aiming mechanism, does cause wounds and does have targets. So I think Blood Lance would need to roll to hit, whereas Jaws of the World Wolf would not/rolling to hit would be irrelevant.

Totally agree with you as to Murderous Hurricane, as I've said elsewhere in this thread.

[Demonus]

keep in mind with MuHu, even if you do not hit/wound, the secondary effect still comes into play, according to the SW FAQ posted on page 2 of this thread.

[Nabterayl]

That's another reason I think JotWW wouldn't need to roll to hit/rolling to hit would be irrelevant. I can get behind missing meaning "you cannot inflict any wounds," but I don't think it has anything to do with non-wound effects.

[Demonus]

i agree.

[pigei]

So how do you consider the new FAQ:

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit?
A : YES

Since there is no explicit sentence in the codex stating "you do not need to roll to hit", it seems evident that we need to roll.

This is certainly true for MuHu (1D6 to hit), Thunderclap (scatter dice).

You then argue that shooting attacks that do not inflict any wounds do not have to roll to hit.

In my opinion this is a faulty reasoning.
The roll toHit represents the changes to hit the target. All shooting attacks have a target (JoWW too, the first model touched by the line must be in the targetted enemy unit).

This roll is independent from the fact that the attack inflicts wounds or not (indeed the concept of wounding comes with the next to Wound roll)

[HsojVvad]

So how do you consider the new FAQ:

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll to hit?
A : YES

Since there is no explicit sentence in the codex stating "you do not need to roll to hit", it seems evident that we need to roll.

I fully agree. No where does it say it's an automatic hit. There has to be a clause or say you don't need to roll to hit. The only place I know where it says this is for Template weapons. JotWW is not a template weapon (as someone tried to claim)

As many people love to tell Tyranid players, it has to tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. So since JotWW doesn't says it hits automatically, you have to roll for it because it says it's a psychic shooting attack in the codex. (Please correct me if I am wrong)

[Demonus]

The problem is that with JoWW I am NOT trying to hit you. I am casting a single beam of energy 24" in a direction. If you happen to be in the path of that beam, YOU are trying to get out of the way of it (Initiative test).

[Nabterayl]

More technically, what does it mean to "hit" somebody in a rules sense? Does it not mean "to cause one or more potential wounds?" As folks have pointed out, you roll to hit, you roll to wound, you roll to save - and if you fail any one of those rolls, you don't get to progress to the next step. But JotWW isn't trying to progress to the next step.

[Demonus]

gah FAQs do nothing but make more problems! :)

[pigei]

The problem is that with JoWW I am NOT trying to hit you.

This is actually incorrect!
In order to use JoWW the psycher must trace a line so that the first model touched belongs to the targeted enemy unit (i.e. the psycher and the unit he has joined are hitting that enemy unit).

All psychic shooting attack must have a target, and thus are required to roll to hit their target! (JoWW, MuHu, CSM Lash, ...)

Finally I agree that the FAQ answer should be, at least, expanded to clarify these issues. This is particularly true in case of template psychic shooting attacks, where the toHit should be automatic and thus should not require a roll to hit.

[Nabterayl]

Template shooting attacks are clear enough; the template rules tell you what to do when a template weapon needs to roll to hit.

I'm still not convinced about JotWW, though. Where is it ever implied that missing causes non-wound aspects of a power to fail? Indeed, in the case of Murderous Hurricane, you can fail your to-hit roll and the target is still affected by the non-wound portion of the power. Shouldn't JotWW operate on the same principle?