Anyone else vexed with the Heresy Series???

[Denzark]

Hey all

Just finished the Age of Darkness compilation. Overall I am up to date with the entire written series, and now am slightly p*ssed off with it all. Rant as follows:

1. A large percentage of the stories seem to be written with some great mysticism or trying to trip suspense out of you. Case point - someone asked about the Age of Darkness Story where Ultramarines seemed to be attacking Salamanders. Was it a dream sequence, an elaborate battle drill of Guilliman? Was it a frakking Holodeck episode like when they run out of ideas in STTNG? By all means give us suspense and/or a cliff hanger. But when the story finally finishes make it understandable.

2. Why so many audio CDs? People have said some aren't that bad. but for the love of the Gods, I want to feel paper, smell the ink, hold something visceral. I want to relax in my mahoosif chesterfield with a Bushmills in one hand, a book in the other, and a slightly flatulent Staffy by my feet.

3. Taking its time. Some aspects of the story seem to warp out of proportion. 3 books for the Istvaan = would rather have had one bigger book. 2 books of Dark Angels? Bollocks cut to treacherous Luther holed up in the rock by the watchers. 1 book max! How long until the climax - they have written off the 7 years between Istavaan and Earth in Age of Darkness - throwaway or what?

4. Choice of focus on various chapters. the 2 DA books are a let down and seeing as all Legions to some extent have knightly fluff, why not focus on the (insert non offensive term for Native American Indian here) background from DeathWing?

5. Primarchs. All of them are seemingly Godly, light flashes, the music from the Omen sounds as they appear. Hang on - if Marines ATSKNF, why can't they look at their Dads? And why oh why does every writer covering a Traitor primarch try and justify what they did - show them as fallible, try and make us empathise with their filthy heretical thoughts? They turned because they were weak and venal, not because they were flawed and wanted the best for humanity.

My last thought is please oh please. I don't think you can find better than the original Horus vs Emperor showdown from The Lost and Damned Nurgle and Tzeentch Rogue Trader book. Think it was Will King - should be either kept in full or let him write the finale.

[Denzark]

PS I know its not all bad.

Likes:

Prospero burns etc - showing it from both sides good. especially Abnett.

Mad different Assassin Clades. Good Assassin War.

Mechanicum. Knights are hardcore.

The Iron Warrior short story in age of Darkness. Of course not all of an entire legion would have gone traitor. This is awesome!

[Count Fenring]

1. Well here it was made clear at the end that they were just wargaming as they were creating the codex.

2. cheap, quick monies for gw

3. yeah, agree they are milking it, but its gw.

4. I quite liked the DA books, but my own chapter is based off this. I like knightly and not teepee's.

5. A more recent book clarified how each primarch was an aspect of the Emperor. It just might be the curse each one has to deal with. Extremes of "His" greatness without "His" balance.

All in all, besides a couple low points, I enjoy the series.

One thing bugged me recently, since we are on the subject of heretical thoughts:D

In Nemesis, I enjoyed it, except the assassin who could not follow orders and felt it was her duty to protect imperial rubbish citizens instead of doing her job. In my mind, Imperial Assassins would be incredibly ruthless without even a fraction of thought concerning innocents that were caught on their path to mission completion. My favorite of course was Mr. Eversor!

[Gotthammer]

4. Choice of focus on various chapters. the 2 DA books are a let down and seeing as all Legions to some extent have knightly fluff, why not focus on the (insert non offensive term for Native American Indian here) background from DeathWing?

The Native American aspect only comes to the chapter after Caliban goes a'splode after the Heresy ends, since the Dark Angels find themselves without a world to recruit from they start using the Plains World people, and later expand to many worlds after the events of Deathwing really hit home that having only one world to recruit from was a bad idea.

I definately agree on #5 though - it's the same with everyone weeping when they see the Emperor because he is so awesome... yet there are political problems and resistance on Terra? Why doesn't the Emp just rock up to wherever there're problems, everyone falls to their knees and is bowed before his glory... problem solved.

[Michael_maggs]

for five ; i dont think we are at the stage where the space marines are psychoindoctrinated yet so i dont think atsknf can apply to them

most of the marines seem to have more free will at this point (compared to the blood ravens which is the only series about marines i have read in 4oK apart from the soul drinkers who break their psychindoctrination; and act quite simmilar IMHO to the heresy era marines) and can remember aspects of their past lives with more clarity than their contemporaries

but this is just my opinion

[Nabterayl]

I haven't read any of the Horus Heresy series, so do you mind if I pop in with some questions and/or speculation that might not address the text at all?

Hang on - if Marines ATSKNF, why can't they look at their Dads?
I'm not sure how literally you mean the whole flash of light etc. thing, but one of the things I always liked about ATSKNF is that it's a discipline you have to turn on by giving yourself the proper conditioning trigger(s). Maybe they just don't want to shut themselves down in the presence of their primarchs?


And why oh why does every writer covering a Traitor primarch try and justify what they did - show them as fallible, try and make us empathise with their filthy heretical thoughts? They turned because they were weak and venal, not because they were flawed and wanted the best for humanity.
I'm not sure how you mean this, but without having read the series it seems like the right way to go for me. Ever since Index Astartes at least the traitor primarchs have generally seemed to me to be the ones who landed on the lousy planets, so I think there's precedent for them being sympathetic figures. And at least as I understand the Chaos gods, their relationship to the Emperor and his plans has always seemed to me like the relationship between the Sith and Jedi philosophies: the "bad guy" philosophy is seductive because it's better than the "good guy" philosophy, except for the inexplicable fact that following it turns you into a monster for no apparently good reason.

[BrokenWing]

There's plenty of good reason it turns you into a monster, the Chaos Gods find it amusing =).

[Grailkeeper]

I was at a talk by Graham Macneill last summer. He mentioned he was sick of the whole justified all to horus. His next book is a murder mystery set amoungst the telepaths, but the one after that is about a legion who fell because they like doing bad things- he mentioned the Iron Warriors here. I should mention some of the stuff he said has since turned out not to be true- he said he couldn't see anything comiing up for the Iron Hands and they got a novella.

I'm just bored at the pace of the novels at this state. Its second only to the movement of the continents in its stateliness- please move a bit closer to earth.

One last thing about the DA books. They added nothing to the over all heresy. Particularly the second, which if you stripped out the Primarch characters could have been a normal substandard 40k novel- nothing particularly made it relate to the heresy.

[Grailkeeper]

What ever happened to Bill King actually? He wrote a large part of what we know of the heresy. Also Gotrek and Felix and the Space wolf novels are now written by other people, whats up with that?

[Denzark]

I haven't read any of the Horus Heresy series, so do you mind if I pop in with some questions and/or speculation that might not address the text at all?

I'm not sure how literally you mean the whole flash of light etc. thing, but one of the things I always liked about ATSKNF is that it's a discipline you have to turn on by giving yourself the proper conditioning trigger(s). Maybe they just don't want to shut themselves down in the presence of their primarchs?


I'm not sure how you mean this, but without having read the series it seems like the right way to go for me. Ever since Index Astartes at least the traitor primarchs have generally seemed to me to be the ones who landed on the lousy planets, so I think there's precedent for them being sympathetic figures. And at least as I understand the Chaos gods, their relationship to the Emperor and his plans has always seemed to me like the relationship between the Sith and Jedi philosophies: the "bad guy" philosophy is seductive because it's better than the "good guy" philosophy, except for the inexplicable fact that following it turns you into a monster for no apparently good reason.

Nabby some good points - the perspective of not having read them may allow you a distance in which to apply logic. I like the turning on and off of fear concept. As opposed to not wanting to turn on ATSKNF, maybe the physiological trigger is they can't NOT but fear them - sort of Robocop directive not to shoot OCP?

I can't agree too much with the sympathy vote on Traitor Primarchs. Whoops you ended up on a crap planet. OK, that excuses the genocide? Magnus is the one who really vexes me. He is described as perfection, and its like 'turn' 'no' 'turn' 'no' 'turn' 'no' and then by minor daemonic trickery at the end its 'turn' 'oh OK then'. Hang on - you disobey your father's strictest decree to warn him, you will allow Russ to burn your world, but THEN you'll turn?

Grail yes the stately pace is frustrating. Then again I will spend £7.99 x 30 or even 50 books so maybe they know whats what! Yes I rant a little but still love it.

[Verilance]

What ever happened to Bill King actually? He wrote a large part of what we know of the heresy. Also Gotrek and Felix and the Space wolf novels are now written by other people, whats up with that?

from Trollslayer William King's website


Hello and a warm welcome to Trollslayer, the official Bill King website.

For those of you who don't know, Bill is an author and games designer, probably best known as the creator of the most (or should that be, least?) successful Trollslayer in the history of the Warhammer Universe, Gotrek Gurnisson. Currently Bill is taking a break from his Black Library work to concentrate on his new non-GW Terrarch trilogy, which has sold in German, Czech and Spanish so far.

I have read one heresy novel (and I can't remember which one) it had such a lasting impression on me.

I would rather read about the imperial guard then Space Marines (though I do own and liked the Iron Snakes book) any day of the week.

Caiaphas Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts do me just fine

[Nabterayl]

I can't agree too much with the sympathy vote on Traitor Primarchs. Whoops you ended up on a crap planet. OK, that excuses the genocide? Magnus is the one who really vexes me. He is described as perfection, and its like 'turn' 'no' 'turn' 'no' 'turn' 'no' and then by minor daemonic trickery at the end its 'turn' 'oh OK then'. Hang on - you disobey your father's strictest decree to warn him, you will allow Russ to burn your world, but THEN you'll turn?
It's not that, so much as that GW has been painting the traitor primarchs in a sympathetic light generally for a long time. I don't know how the authors are actually treating the falls of the various primarchs, but there's plenty to despise about the Emperor and his Crusade. Seems to me that it wouldn't be that hard for a Chaos god to offer a primarch a genuinely better solution.

[Thornblood]

Ok, so heres something we worked out looooong before the heresy series was started;

GW has made the imperium, the supposed 'good guys', so grimdark that they are pretty evil. Same for fantasy. Different 'good guys' function in highly corrupt, elitist, sexist, racist, ageist, or any other kind of 'ist' bureaucracy choked societies, and as GW tries to be more and more relatable they suggest that they have more and more democracy, and then to add a flavour of grimdark, the democracy is corrupt and dosnt work. This does however work quite well fo writing about a hero- Leonatus and Uriel Ventris in particular stood up for what was good and practical and got exiled for the pleasure. Cain, Gaunt, Ragnar, Captain Angelos and the like look so heroic because everyone around them is so corrupt. They are the few 'good guys' amongst a relatively evil Imperium. Check out Logan Grimnar at the First battle for Armegeddon if you dont believe me.

Chaos on the other hand, has our societies acceptance and tolerance of everything an everyone. Whilst Daemons are fundamentality evil and/or self serving, they tend not to do it under false pretenses. So whilst they have the title evil, and many of the chaos characters are written to delight in terrible things, their main flaw tends to be delusions of grandeur, rather than hypocrisy, like the Imperium.

So yeah, whilst the Chaos legions may want to Kill Maim and Burn, at least they are upfront and honest about it, accepting of all peoples, whether as potential recruits or victims (or both), and they all serve the chaos Gods for personal gain, rather than pretending to for pretend selflessness.

Yeah, GW made the good guys look so good, the Tau just dont seem to fit with the rest of the universe...

[Vaddok Sek]

I can see your point with how the series seems to have stalled at this point. But while its true that they are milking the cash cow they are also really trying to flesh out this whole event, make it spectacular, and by extension make the 40k universe more mysterious and complex both past and present. The problem with doing a series like this is the same that was faced with the Star Wars prequels, we know how it ends. So the writers are, of course, given the task of making the "getting there" part something that grips us and makes us want to read on. Having traitor primarchs you could feel sympathetic to is a major part of this. The primarchs themselves may be post humans and have the strength and ability of a demi-god, but at their core they are still just men with the faults and failings of men. But because they are seen as demi-gods they are expected to live up to that standard, and we that its too much burden to bear for even the loyalist primarchs. Besides would anybody here really buy the books if all the traitors were like, "WEEEEE!! Chaos for teh LULZ!!!" So instead it has to have you on the edge of your seat by making them into tragic figures, thus many people will get to the parts where Horus is in the Serpent Lodge, Fulgrim is in the Laer temple, and Magnus is about to cast the communication spell and they are saying in thier heads, "Don't do it man. Don't do it." Also they write these books not only bring a particular event or set of characters to life in a way that the codicies and rulebooks didn't have room for, but in the case of novels like Legion, Nemesis, Mechanicum, Prospero/Thousand, they show that there is alot more going on than we could have ever imagined.

[david5th]

Hey all

Just finished the Age of Darkness compilation. Overall I am up to date with the entire written series, and now am slightly p*ssed off with it all. Rant as follows:

1. A large percentage of the stories seem to be written with some great mysticism or trying to trip suspense out of you. Case point - someone asked about the Age of Darkness Story where Ultramarines seemed to be attacking Salamanders. Was it a dream sequence, an elaborate battle drill of Guilliman? Was it a frakking Holodeck episode like when they run out of ideas in STTNG? By all means give us suspense and/or a cliff hanger. But when the story finally finishes make it understandable.

2. Why so many audio CDs? People have said some aren't that bad. but for the love of the Gods, I want to feel paper, smell the ink, hold something visceral. I want to relax in my mahoosif chesterfield with a Bushmills in one hand, a book in the other, and a slightly flatulent Staffy by my feet.

3. Taking its time. Some aspects of the story seem to warp out of proportion. 3 books for the Istvaan = would rather have had one bigger book. 2 books of Dark Angels? Bollocks cut to treacherous Luther holed up in the rock by the watchers. 1 book max! How long until the climax - they have written off the 7 years between Istavaan and Earth in Age of Darkness - throwaway or what?

4. Choice of focus on various chapters. the 2 DA books are a let down and seeing as all Legions to some extent have knightly fluff, why not focus on the (insert non offensive term for Native American Indian here) background from DeathWing?

5. Primarchs. All of them are seemingly Godly, light flashes, the music from the Omen sounds as they appear. Hang on - if Marines ATSKNF, why can't they look at their Dads? And why oh why does every writer covering a Traitor primarch try and justify what they did - show them as fallible, try and make us empathise with their filthy heretical thoughts? They turned because they were weak and venal, not because they were flawed and wanted the best for humanity.

My last thought is please oh please. I don't think you can find better than the original Horus vs Emperor showdown from The Lost and Damned Nurgle and Tzeentch Rogue Trader book. Think it was Will King - should be either kept in full or let him write the finale.


1. I thought it was a war-game involving disguises and laser designators.
2. I am for and against these . They are extra £££ for GW but there are only 5 short stories that are audio only – The Dark King, The Lightning Tower, Ravens Flight, Oath Of Moment and Legion Of One. With the exception of the last one I think the others aren’t really that important. The majority of the HH is glorious written word.
3. Definitely milking but hey, extra £££.
4. I thought the Deathwing genestealer killing happened awhile after the HH.
5. It might be the whole a Primarch is to an Astartes what a Astartes is to a human thing. One of the things Dorn says he likes about Loken is that he not blasé like Abaddon and Torgaddon is around Horus.

[DarkLink]

Chaos on the other hand, has our societies acceptance and tolerance of everything an everyone. Whilst Daemons are fundamentality evil and/or self serving, they tend not to do it under false pretenses. So whilst they have the title evil, and many of the chaos characters are written to delight in terrible things, their main flaw tends to be delusions of grandeur, rather than hypocrisy, like the Imperium.

So yeah, whilst the Chaos legions may want to Kill Maim and Burn, at least they are upfront and honest about it, accepting of all peoples, whether as potential recruits or victims (or both), and they all serve the chaos Gods for personal gain, rather than pretending to for pretend selflessness.

If you feel chaos' tolerance (which isn't really tolerance, since they'll just kill you whatever you do), and honesty in general are more important than doing the right thing, or at least trying to, then you have a #$%^& -up moral compass.

[C.of.N.finity]

Ok, so heres something we worked out looooong before the heresy series was started;

GW has made the imperium, the supposed 'good guys', so grimdark that they are pretty evil. Same for fantasy. Different 'good guys' function in highly corrupt, elitist, sexist, racist, ageist, or any other kind of 'ist' bureaucracy choked societies, and as GW tries to be more and more relatable they suggest that they have more and more democracy, and then to add a flavour of grimdark, the democracy is corrupt and dosnt work. This does however work quite well fo writing about a hero- Leonatus and Uriel Ventris in particular stood up for what was good and practical and got exiled for the pleasure. Cain, Gaunt, Ragnar, Captain Angelos and the like look so heroic because everyone around them is so corrupt. They are the few 'good guys' amongst a relatively evil Imperium. Check out Logan Grimnar at the First battle for Armegeddon if you dont believe me.

Chaos on the other hand, has our societies acceptance and tolerance of everything an everyone. Whilst Daemons are fundamentality evil and/or self serving, they tend not to do it under false pretenses. So whilst they have the title evil, and many of the chaos characters are written to delight in terrible things, their main flaw tends to be delusions of grandeur, rather than hypocrisy, like the Imperium.

So yeah, whilst the Chaos legions may want to Kill Maim and Burn, at least they are upfront and honest about it, accepting of all peoples, whether as potential recruits or victims (or both), and they all serve the chaos Gods for personal gain, rather than pretending to for pretend selflessness.

Yeah, GW made the good guys look so good, the Tau just dont seem to fit with the rest of the universe...

This is one of the most awesome posts I've read, lol. Sorry to troll, but +1 to this.


If you feel chaos' tolerance (which isn't really tolerance, since they'll just kill you whatever you do), I think that's a contradiction, as nothing in the world sounds more tolerant, i.e., less discriminitory.

[Xas]

I like the fact that the "traitors" are rationalised.

there is nothing worse than some human beeing just beeing evil for the sake of evil itself.

In fact it is the "good" side of chaos which fascinates me as I see it for a great mirror of real life:
everything has a cause and by not stopping the cause of evil we are guilty of creating evil itself.

[Nabterayl]

I don't know about more "tolerant," but I do think Chaos has more to offer. At their core, the Ruinous Powers have always been about responding to the despair of a grimdark universe.

"Can things ever be better?" asks a man in despair. "No," says the Imperium, "this is the best of all possible worlds." But Tzeentch says, "Yes, things can get better."

"Will the darkness win in the end?" asks a man in despair. "Only," says the Imperium, "if you admit that you despair." But Nurgle says, "No, the darkness is only dark because you believe it so."

"Can I ever rage against the slings and arrows of misfortune?" asks a man in despair. "No," says the Imperium, "obey your lawful lords and masters and we will all muddle through." But Khorne says, "Yes, you have the right to take what you deserve."

"Can I ever look out for myself?" asks a man in despair. "No," says the Imperium, "your life belongs to the greater good." But Slaanesh says, "Yes, you can and should."

The Chaos gods are, fundamentally, the responses of sapient beings to the darkness of life. The Imperium is, fundamentally, the will of men imposed by conquest. It's no wonder that the Chaos gods have the better philosophies, and no wonder, I think, that rational sapient beings could turn their back on the Imperium and embrace Chaos.

[Denzark]

Naby:

There is nothing that says to me that the Empire wants to keep the status quo - things could of course get better. The Eye of Terror could close, the Hive fleet could disappear up its own fobosity, the various waaaghs would be defeated.

This may allow some on the Council of Terra to fight the power of the ministorum maybe and go back to something of the Emperor's original aims of the crusade.

Even if not, without the threats, a stagnant Empire in some sort of repression would be better than one in fear of death from one of a series of nasties. Somewhat Paul Mua'dib I know. Look at THe Verghast miners in GG - they are more than happy to devote their entire lives to slaving to dig scraps out of the ground.

Imperium oppression = benevolence - its for the people, the state knows best. It only requires the death of those who disagree.

Chaos objectives - malevolence - if it is selfish as per your examples, it always excepting Tzeentch, results in death of others - Khorne murder to take what you want, Slaanesh orgies always end in sacrifice, Nurgle plagues kill millions.

[DarkLink]

I do like how, as tvtropes points out, you know something's up when the god of hope is evil.

[Nabterayl]

True, but I think that's the perpetually seductive thing about Chaos. There's no reason the god of hope should be evil. He was born from the hopes of a species for a better future. Similarly, Khorne is the god of "No, goddammit, I will not lie down and accept this!" Nurgle is the god of "No, goddammit, you can't kill me - I can only decide to die."

Those are all good, noble, admirable sentiments, and for my money, certainly better, nobler, more admirable sentiments than the "the Emperor protects," which is the core of the Imperial creed. True, the Chaos gods, for all the goodness, nobility, and admirability of their psychic origins, are also monsters by most reasonable standards - and true, their most devoted followers also end up monsters by most reasonable standards. But there's no reason that should be so, and the Imperium has never been able to offer one other than "Well, they aren't the Emperor, and they're evil."

No wonder people continue to doubt what they're told by the Imperium about the Ruinous Powers and buy into their way of life.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is, if you were a hugely arrogant, hugely intelligent general who had been on the front lines of the first interstellar war in recorded history, and that war had succeeded by any reasonable expectations, and somebody came to you and said, "Okay, kid, let me get this straight: you've conquered half the galaxy in the name of one man? That's what you stand for?" you wouldn't have to be weak or venal to go, "Hey, you know what ... you're right! That's bull****!"

[jorz192]

The human mind will search for catharsis before misery and stagnation.
To me that has been what the Horus Heresy series is about, showing some emotion from the characters of the 40k universe.

I recomend reading the book "Visions of Heresy" it's a collection of artwork of the Horus Heresy but includes an almost complete timeline for the events of the heresy.
It's expensive but worth it, around 40.00 via ebay. My copy is well worn and I have read it repeatedly.
It has a brilliant story of the final battle between Horus and the Emporer from the Emporer's view point.

The Horus Heresy series has ruined 40k for me because 30k is so much more interesting. I wish the game featured a side campaign dedicated to the 30th millenium.

[david5th]

The human mind will search for catharsis before misery and stagnation.
To me that has been what the Horus Heresy series is about, showing some emotion from the characters of the 40k universe.

I recomend reading the book "Visions of Heresy" it's a collection of artwork of the Horus Heresy but includes an almost complete timeline for the events of the heresy.
It's expensive but worth it, around 40.00 via ebay. My copy is well worn and I have read it repeatedly.
It has a brilliant story of the final battle between Horus and the Emporer from the Emporer's view point.

The Horus Heresy series has ruined 40k for me because 30k is so much more interesting. I wish the game featured a side campaign dedicated to the 30th millenium.

Definitely, although one books appears to go Torgaddon as Horus's bodyguard during the seige of Terra.

[Drew da Destroya]

Hey all

Just finished the Age of Darkness compilation. Overall I am up to date with the entire written series, and now am slightly p*ssed off with it all. Rant as follows:

1. A large percentage of the stories seem to be written with some great mysticism or trying to trip suspense out of you. Case point - someone asked about the Age of Darkness Story where Ultramarines seemed to be attacking Salamanders. Was it a dream sequence, an elaborate battle drill of Guilliman? Was it a frakking Holodeck episode like when they run out of ideas in STTNG? By all means give us suspense and/or a cliff hanger. But when the story finally finishes make it understandable.

I thought it was pretty clear at the end that it was all an elaborate wargame, with Ultramarines re-painting their armor and playing lasertag in order to test out the Codex. Maybe you missed something in the last few pages?


2. Why so many audio CDs? People have said some aren't that bad. but for the love of the Gods, I want to feel paper, smell the ink, hold something visceral. I want to relax in my mahoosif chesterfield with a Bushmills in one hand, a book in the other, and a slightly flatulent Staffy by my feet.

I'm more annoyed by the "exclusive" books, like "Promethean Sun". At least the Audio Books are available to everyone... Jacking up the price and making a book limited just alienates people. I did like that the "Faces of Treachery" story made reference to the Raven Guard audiobook, at least. They're tying things together, without it being necessary for you to have listened to them.


3. Taking its time. Some aspects of the story seem to warp out of proportion. 3 books for the Istvaan = would rather have had one bigger book. 2 books of Dark Angels? Bollocks cut to treacherous Luther holed up in the rock by the watchers. 1 book max! How long until the climax - they have written off the 7 years between Istavaan and Earth in Age of Darkness - throwaway or what?

Others have addressed this, but I'm going to add my $0.02. I'm pretty sure that "Age of Darkness" is kicking off the next "phase" of the HH novels, which will focus on the "Middle" of the Heresy, as Horus gathers allies and moves towards Terra, and the Emperor's forces try to build up for the siege of Terra.

I'd like to see some novels focusing on the Battle of Calth, and the Wolves/White Scars/Alpha Legion stuff that happened after Prospero.


4. Choice of focus on various chapters. the 2 DA books are a let down and seeing as all Legions to some extent have knightly fluff, why not focus on the (insert non offensive term for Native American Indian here) background from DeathWing?

Blah blah Deathwing came later blah. I agree, though, I'd like to see some focus on some of the other chapters, like the Iron Hands, Raven Guard (book next year!), or the Night Lords.

I was also disappointed that the second DA book didn't seem to make any reference to the Lion's paranoia, watching his own legion, etc... It was just kind of "Oh, hey, lets run off on a secret adventure! Cool!". It really didn't add much to the mystery of the chapter that's pretty well known for being mysterious.


5. Primarchs. All of them are seemingly Godly, light flashes, the music from the Omen sounds as they appear. Hang on - if Marines ATSKNF, why can't they look at their Dads? And why oh why does every writer covering a Traitor primarch try and justify what they did - show them as fallible, try and make us empathise with their filthy heretical thoughts? They turned because they were weak and venal, not because they were flawed and wanted the best for humanity.

Others have covered this really well, so I can't add much. I do prefer seeing the Primarchs as more "human", complete with flaws. It makes for better reading when you can relate to them.


My last thought is please oh please. I don't think you can find better than the original Horus vs Emperor showdown from The Lost and Damned Nurgle and Tzeentch Rogue Trader book. Think it was Will King - should be either kept in full or let him write the finale.

It would be fantastic if he wrote the last story. Letter writing campaign?


Overall, I've really enjoyed the HH series, although it certainly has low points (Abyss, DA part 2, Nick Kyme's AoD short story). I'd also agree with Jorz192, "Visions of Heresy" is well worth a read! Although sometimes the artwork is mislabeled, which can be funny. Seeing some Death Guard labelled as Emperor's Children makes me chuckle.

[wittdooley]

I agree with a lot of Drew's points, but I'll make my own comments as well:


Hey all


1. A large percentage of the stories seem to be written with some great mysticism or trying to trip suspense out of you. Case point - someone asked about the Age of Darkness Story where Ultramarines seemed to be attacking Salamanders. Was it a dream sequence, an elaborate battle drill of Guilliman? Was it a frakking Holodeck episode like when they run out of ideas in STTNG? By all means give us suspense and/or a cliff hanger. But when the story finally finishes make it understandable.

I was a bit confused by this at first, knowing that the Salamanders didn't turn against the Emperor. However, you have to consider that Gulliman doesn't know that, and he has to prepare for all eventualities. The Salamanders by all accounts have some of the earliest access to the Terminator Armour, and are quite proficient with it, so it makes sense that the Ultras would train against them, just as they'd train against the Night Lords for guerilla situations.



2. Why so many audio CDs? People have said some aren't that bad. but for the love of the Gods, I want to feel paper, smell the ink, hold something visceral. I want to relax in my mahoosif chesterfield with a Bushmills in one hand, a book in the other, and a slightly flatulent Staffy by my feet.

And for the most part, I agree. However, the audio dramas really are a nice addition. Were they simply audiobooks, I'd be a bit more blase about them, but the more recent ones (particuarlly the Garro books) have really nice production value, and are a nice hour long treat to listen to.



3. Taking its time. Some aspects of the story seem to warp out of proportion. 3 books for the Istvaan = would rather have had one bigger book. 2 books of Dark Angels? Bollocks cut to treacherous Luther holed up in the rock by the watchers. 1 book max! How long until the climax - they have written off the 7 years between Istavaan and Earth in Age of Darkness - throwaway or what?

I dunno, I'm sure we could ask George R.R. Martin or Robert Jordan this as well; anything with an 'epic' storyline, particularly in our genre, takes a while to play out. I think the BL has done a nice thing with the short story collections, as they are our markers for where we are in the series. I imagine the next short story collection will be titled "Age of War" or something akin to mark the final section of the story, the battles of Terra and the subsequent aftermath.



4. Choice of focus on various chapters. the 2 DA books are a let down and seeing as all Legions to some extent have knightly fluff, why not focus on the (insert non offensive term for Native American Indian here) background from DeathWing?

I think it's becoming clear that BL has the intention to give some face time to every chapter. Consider this, however: when they originally came up with the Horus Heresy story, there were about 10 chapters that they envisioned having MAJOR ROLES. As such, the other 8 chapters need to have brand new background created. It takes some time to coherently blend them into the story. I'd love to see more Salamanders, or Night Lords, but it's going to take some time.



5. Primarchs. All of them are seemingly Godly, light flashes, the music from the Omen sounds as they appear. Hang on - if Marines ATSKNF, why can't they look at their Dads? And why oh why does every writer covering a Traitor primarch try and justify what they did - show them as fallible, try and make us empathise with their filthy heretical thoughts? They turned because they were weak and venal, not because they were flawed and wanted the best for humanity.


Others have touched on this, but I'll reiterate: flaws make a character human, and being human makes a character relatable to the reader. Compare Fulgrim to Angron in what we've seen of both. Yeah, I get that Angron had a crappy upbringing on an awful slave planet, but he doesn't resonate with me (and man, I hope he doesn't resonate with anyone) because he's a psychopath. Fulgrim and Magnus resonate because they are flawed, because their fall is slow and painful to watch. The same could be said for Lorgar, though I didn't empathize with him because his fall, IMO, was a result of his own weakness, whereas Fulgrim and Magnus' were due to hubris.



My last thought is please oh please. I don't think you can find better than the original Horus vs Emperor showdown from The Lost and Damned Nurgle and Tzeentch Rogue Trader book. Think it was Will King - should be either kept in full or let him write the finale.

While I like William King, I'll disagree here. The team they have writing the HH books is more than capable, and, unless something drastic changes, I'd say it's fairly clear the final Trilogy will be written by Dembski-Bowden, McNeill and Abnett, with perhaps some James Swallow thrown in to set the stage for the Blood Angels.

[Denzark]

Maybe the flaws are supposed to be like greek epic writing - the one fatal flaw that makes a character human (was this called the hamartia or some such?)

BUT remember that no matter how seemingly understandable their reason for turning, they all degenrate into daemon possessed/prince murderous genocidal individuals whose motivation is self glory - in most cases like Horus thinking they can rule chaos, and being far more interested in themselves than in the objectives of the 'team'.

One could sympathise with a rebel system governor who ceded in the 41st millenium against administratum taxes/munitio recruiting/ministorum churches and without going to chaos, fought a doomed but non-corrupted war against the imperium.

But there is surely no point of empathy for traitor primarchs - whatever may have existed at the start should (imho) twist with them. And remember these near-'perfect' beings mostly have some macguffin whose jedi mind trick they wouldn't fall for if they weren't such weak minded fools.

[wittdooley]

But there is surely no point of empathy for traitor primarchs - whatever may have existed at the start should (imho) twist with them. And remember these near-'perfect' beings mostly have some macguffin whose jedi mind trick they wouldn't fall for if they weren't such weak minded fools.

You really don't think so? None of them begin as traitors. They all begin as heroes, and thus the whole Hamtria aspect plays out.

You can hardly say Magnus was unconcerned with others. The flaw of any tragic hero comes from hubris, and the same can be said for all the 'traitor' primarchs we've seen fall thusfar. Fulgrim, Magnus, Lorgar... their falls are all tragic.

[Wildeybeast]

My isssue is with Horus himself. He is basically Macbeth-lite - favoured warrior (son) betrays and murders king (emperor) along with his best mate (Sanguinius). Therefore I was expecting him to be like Macbeth, a great hero laid low by an inherent character flaw. The problem is, Horus' character flaw is he's a chump.

Chaos shows him some visions of a future without him in it and he just gives in? WTF!? That's a 'fall' succeded in crapness only by Episode 3. I mean, you get no sense whatsoever of his heroic nature, just that he gives up pathetically easily. He even ignores the advice of his own brother over the whsipering of Chaos.

Compare him to someone like Fulgrim who has to be slowly corrupted over time or Kurze who is slowly driven mad by his own powers and his fatalistic view of humanity and Horus really doesn't come out well. How he is able to persuade so many of his brothers to join him is a mystery to me.

[Denzark]

You really don't think so? None of them begin as traitors. They all begin as heroes, and thus the whole Hamtria aspect plays out.

You can hardly say Magnus was unconcerned with others. The flaw of any tragic hero comes from hubris, and the same can be said for all the 'traitor' primarchs we've seen fall thusfar. Fulgrim, Magnus, Lorgar... their falls are all tragic.

A small star wars comparison - Anakin's mum dying - sympathy. - Anakin killing sand-people in angst - some sympathy still. The new Darth Vader doing order 66 on younglings - no sympathy. Machine Darth Vader blowing up alderaan - no sympathy. Anakin throwing Palpatine down a power shaft thus redeeming himself - some sympathy.

In HH terms, the anakin's mum phase is the initial displeasure with the Emperor heading back to Earth. Sand People angst is getting convinced by the arguments of the daemons/macguffins/whatever floats their boat. At the outset, you still sympathise. Istavaan is Order 66, followed by everything else. No sympathy, they have no regrets, they're poncing around the Eye of Terror, pimping out planets, sipping crystal and making big whoopy with daemons interspersed with occasional genocidal violence against the people of the corpse-God - aka the Black Crusades. hell, they even have something called the Planet Killer! At this stage the motive is purely self interest and not trag-heroic.

Magnus is one that gets me in particular. He weighs it up, he ignores the daemons, he breaks the creed, he then accepts the wrath of the Wolves - he didn't use all the planetary defences, thus opening the whole world to a wolf-pack rapine and plundering. Only then does he have second thoughts. He was going to take the wolf tea-bagging in the face of pleas from his captains, and THEN he turns. I don't think omniscient Magnus thought Russ was coming for a tea party - he knew what was coming and took it on the chin, THEN turned, a sensible point would have been when the grey spaceships turned up outside...

[wittdooley]

Compare him to someone like Fulgrim who has to be slowly corrupted over time or Kurze who is slowly driven mad by his own powers and his fatalistic view of humanity and Horus really doesn't come out well. How he is able to persuade so many of his brothers to join him is a mystery to me.

Well, let's think about who Horus actually "persuades."

Angron --- Bloodthirsty psychopath that loves to kill. Tough sell there.
Perturabo -- Bloodthirsty psycopath that likes to kill and slave. Sensing a Trend.
Konrad Curze -- Bloodthirst Batman that loves to kill and torture to prove a point. Hmmm
Mortarion -- The Death Lord that already lived in poisonous gas.

I'd argue that those are the only Primarchs that are convinced by Horus.

Fulgrim -- Fall to Chaos after slow poisoning. Is possessed.
Magnus -- Fall to Chaos after disobeying the Emperor and accepting his punishment and fleeing into the Chaos Wastes
Lorgar -- Fall to Chaos after dismissal by the Emperor, and only after his men are subjected to Chaos first
Alpharius/Omegon - Pragmatic convincing that they had to side with Horus or the world would end, rather than just burn and be crappy for a while.

Horus' fall, remember, was due to his near death experience with the Chaos Gods while in a coma. The Chaos Gods saved him. In saving him, they seeded him with Chaos. He was quite noble before that.

[wittdooley]

In HH terms, the anakin's mum phase is the initial displeasure with the Emperor heading back to Earth. Sand People angst is getting convinced by the arguments of the daemons/macguffins/whatever floats their boat. At the outset, you still sympathise. Istavaan is Order 66, followed by everything else. No sympathy, they have no regrets, they're poncing around the Eye of Terror, pimping out planets, sipping crystal and making big whoopy with daemons interspersed with occasional genocidal violence against the people of the corpse-God - aka the Black Crusades. hell, they even have something called the Planet Killer! At this stage the motive is purely self interest and not trag-heroic.
.


I don't think this is too far off, but then that's the point. Do you ever feel bad for Vadar in Episode IV? Hells Naw. Do you ever feel bad for Vadar in Episode V? Hells naw. Only when Luke see's the good in him do we start to feel bad for Vadar. The prequel movies help to humanize Anakin. Despite the 'greatness' of the prequels, Fulgrim, Magnus, and Lorgar pre-Chaos are essentially prequel Anakin. They are good, and noble, and sympathetic before the fall. That's why they have entire books devoted to them and Mortarion or Angron do not. To steal from the immortal Denny Green, 'they are who we thought they were.' The ones who fall are not.

We're not supposed to feel bad for the post-Chaos Primarchs. We're not. They're redemption story has yet to be written. The Horus Heresy is the prequel trilogy. 40k is Force Unleashed Vadar, hunting down the remaining Jedi and Episode IV blowing up Alderaan Vadar. We haven't seen Episode V Vadar yet in the 40k verse. That Vadar is final battle Fulgrim or Magnus, when they overcome the Chaos Gods they've let possess them, and help defeat them once and for all (I just don't see it happening for Lorgar).

[Denzark]

There is somewhat of a dichotomy between the 'perfection' and the fallen nature of the corrupted primarchs. Agree that mortarion and angron were forgone conclusions. Its a bit too convenient for me. I am actually more sympathetic for Horus - who fell hardest - who actually has a vader-esque redemption when he realised what he had done. The others know nor care not - unrepentant them, unsympathetic me.

I might have to agree to disagree respectfully here as I run the risk of sounding overly moralistic - as a Khorne player it sticks in my craw like a pint of clotting Grey Knight blood...

[Nabterayl]

There is somewhat of a dichotomy between the 'perfection' and the fallen nature of the corrupted primarchs. Agree that mortarion and angron were forgone conclusions. Its a bit too convenient for me. I am actually more sympathetic for Horus - who fell hardest - who actually has a vader-esque redemption when he realised what he had done. The others know nor care not - unrepentant them, unsympathetic me.

I might have to agree to disagree respectfully here as I run the risk of sounding overly moralistic - as a Khorne player it sticks in my craw like a pint of clotting Grey Knight blood...
I've always looked at the perfection/corruption dichotomy as pointing up one of the Emperor's own blind spots - he views himself as perfection, and he isn't. Whatever good qualities they had, the Emperor and his Primarchs were also insufferable self-important gits. They're susceptible to corruption (i) because the Great Crusade was bull**** to start with, and (ii) because they're not as perfect as they think they are.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean about "as a Khorne player?" I've always found Khorne the most sympathetic of the Chaos gods.

[Denzark]

Ie I shouldn't moralise and try to convince you of my point of view - would be a touch hypocritical and anyhoo thats what a chainaxe in the bonce will do just as well...:mad:

[Wildeybeast]

Well, let's think about who Horus actually "persuades."

Angron --- Bloodthirsty psychopath that loves to kill. Tough sell there.
Perturabo -- Bloodthirsty psycopath that likes to kill and slave. Sensing a Trend.
Konrad Curze -- Bloodthirst Batman that loves to kill and torture to prove a point. Hmmm
Mortarion -- The Death Lord that already lived in poisonous gas.

I'd argue that those are the only Primarchs that are convinced by Horus.

Fulgrim -- Fall to Chaos after slow poisoning. Is possessed.
Magnus -- Fall to Chaos after disobeying the Emperor and accepting his punishment and fleeing into the Chaos Wastes
Lorgar -- Fall to Chaos after dismissal by the Emperor, and only after his men are subjected to Chaos first
Alpharius/Omegon - Pragmatic convincing that they had to side with Horus or the world would end, rather than just burn and be crappy for a while.

Horus' fall, remember, was due to his near death experience with the Chaos Gods while in a coma. The Chaos Gods saved him. In saving him, they seeded him with Chaos. He was quite noble before that.

On reflection I guess he doesn't really persuade any of them. They all get lured into Chaos and just see him as a natural leader for their rebellion. In fact the whole persuasion things really doesn't work at all.

*spoilers*

Horus: Are you sure you can persuade him to join us Fulgrim?
Fulgrim: Absolutely. Definitely. 100% certain on that.
Horus: Ok, go for it.

Fulgrim: Hey Ferrus, I've joined this totally cool new club where we hang out and mutilate ourselves and were gonna kill the emperor and take over the galaxy and stuff. You should totally join us, I can definitely get you in.
Ferrus: No.
Fulgrim: What?
Ferrus: No. That sounds like a really lame club, why would you even think I want to join your crappy club? I'm in the Emperor's club and we already rule the galaxy dumbass.
Fulgrim: Oh. You sure?
Ferrus: Yeah.
Fulgrim. Bummer. I really thought you'd join. I guess I'm going to have to kill you now and then get all upset about it and give into demon possession cos I can't take the guilt and I'm a bit of a moron.

As for Horus being noble before his fall, I get that he is, he must be becuase of his background, its just that we never see it, so I feel nothing for him. And I don't buy the whole seeding him with Chaos. In fact, unlike say Fulgrim who gives in and is manipulated and consumed by it, Horus just sees Chaos as tool he can use, like any other weapon. Chaos needs him more than he needs it. But he's just duped so easily. One quick vision of a crappy future without him and his first thought is the emperor betrays him? It never once occurs to him during his whole rebellion that maybe he isn't in the future visions becasue of his rebellion which would then swiftly lead to the thought that it isn't going to end well for him. Like I said, chump.

[wittdooley]

As for Horus being noble before his fall, I get that he is, he must be becuase of his background, its just that we never see it, so I feel nothing for him. And I don't buy the whole seeding him with Chaos. In fact, unlike say Fulgrim who gives in and is manipulated and consumed by it, Horus just sees Chaos as tool he can use, like any other weapon. Chaos needs him more than he needs it. But he's just duped so easily. One quick vision of a crappy future without him and his first thought is the emperor betrays him? It never once occurs to him during his whole rebellion that maybe he isn't in the future visions becasue of his rebellion which would then swiftly lead to the thought that it isn't going to end well for him. Like I said, chump.

I didn't really feel much sympathy for Horus, either. I certainly did for Fulgrim and Magnus. I couldn't really for Lorgar because he was such a Nancy.

[BrokenWing]

Ah yes, Lorgar.

Lorgar: "So I made this prayer book and a church for you father."
Emperor: "Uh...that's really kind of creepy, don't do that."
Lorgar: *sniff* "fine! I'll just worship someone who appreciates my efforts!"

[Denzark]

I really like Guilliman slapping down Lorgar.

MTFU Lorgar!

[Michael_maggs]

A small star wars comparison - Anakin's mum dying - sympathy. - Anakin killing sand-people in angst - some sympathy still. The new Darth Vader doing order 66 on younglings - no sympathy. Machine Darth Vader blowing up alderaan - no sympathy. Anakin throwing Palpatine down a power shaft thus redeeming himself - some sympathy.

In HH terms, the anakin's mum phase is the initial displeasure with the Emperor heading back to Earth. Sand People angst is getting convinced by the arguments of the daemons/macguffins/whatever floats their boat. At the outset, you still sympathise. Istavaan is Order 66, followed by everything else. No sympathy, they have no regrets, they're poncing around the Eye of Terror, pimping out planets, sipping crystal and making big whoopy with daemons interspersed with occasional genocidal violence against the people of the corpse-God - aka the Black Crusades. hell, they even have something called the Planet Killer! At this stage the motive is purely self interest and not trag-heroic.

Magnus is one that gets me in particular. He weighs it up, he ignores the daemons, he breaks the creed, he then accepts the wrath of the Wolves - he didn't use all the planetary defences, thus opening the whole world to a wolf-pack rapine and plundering. Only then does he have second thoughts. He was going to take the wolf tea-bagging in the face of pleas from his captains, and THEN he turns. I don't think omniscient Magnus thought Russ was coming for a tea party - he knew what was coming and took it on the chin, THEN turned, a sensible point would have been when the grey spaceships turned up outside...

Spoiler alert





from reading prospero burns i guess magnus believed he could go quietly to face punishment on terra, afterall russ was reluctant to kill his brother. if the fall of magnus was not engineered by the deamon then russ and magnus might have open up a line of dialogue and both legions would have been saved the devistation. through out the journey to prospero russ pleaded with the skijald as he believed he was a psychic link to magnus while magnus refused to lower the shield in case his legion would defy him and attack

Magnus's fall is the most painful as it is needless and is born of compassion for his dying sons
sorry i have just reallised you have most aptly addressed most of the issues in my post