Beating I6 Halbers! Army specific ideas

[Image]

So, I have three primary armies that I play in 40k. The one I've been playing longest is Ultramarines, but I have also completed a Blood Angels army and an Eldar army.

With Ultramarines, in terms of Close Combat support, certainly T.Hammer, Storm Shields are excellent for taking out Purifiers - I mention Purifiers specifically as I think that's where you'll see the majority of halberds. Since the initiative is a non-issue, shoring up your invuln save is one way to overcome the issues that I6 Halberds present. For the vanilla marine players, are there any other suggestions you can think of? :) Of course, Ironclads are another excellent choice, but with slow movement, it may not be the easiest thing to engage with Purifiers.

So, for BA, I've decided that Mephiston is a worthwhile element as his base initiative is 7. Striking first, he can likely kill enough models that they present little threat to him. Additionally, it forces your opponent to decide on wounding on 6s, but keeping access to force weapons or using hammer hand to force more wounds. Certainly, as with Vanilla Marines, Furioso Dreads are an excellent option, especially with Blood Talons, mounted in a storm raven. Watch out for hammer hand and daemon hammers, but I think that's a universal concern. Otherwise, Sanguinor/Dante with a priest nearby is also worthwhile, but even without one, they're still striking simultaneously.

With Eldar, I think you might see an increase in the rise of Harlequins. I know they're expensive and fragile, but with a natural I6, Furious Charge, and Hit and Run, they have the mobility and speed to really do some damage. With doom up, made easier to overcome the Aegis with RoW, these guys can really pull their weight. If not mounted, as usual, a Shadowseer is necessary, but this brings up the concern of Psyk-Out grenades. Forcing the Shadowseer to I1, I think is worthwhile to better protect them from devastating shooting from up to 24" away. The last two elements I like from Eldar are the Wraithlord who's natural toughness forces them to use Hammerhand to even hurt him but more than that would be Yriel. Another model at I7, he can wipe out a doomed squad with ease.

Anyways, I'm just spit-balling ideas here for the thoughts of units I'm more likely to consider due to the introduction of GK. With Purifiers being such a strong, versatile unit, I truly think that any army will need an answer for them. Given that leaving them to shoot is, I believe, a more dangerous option than engaging them in CC, what units/models are you now considering bringing to deal with I6 halberds on shooty purifiers? :)

[Bean]

So, I have three primary armies that I play in 40k. The one I've been playing longest is Ultramarines, but I have also completed a Blood Angels army and an Eldar army.

With Ultramarines, in terms of Close Combat support, certainly T.Hammer, Storm Shields are excellent for taking out Purifiers - I mention Purifiers specifically as I think that's where you'll see the majority of halberds. Since the initiative is a non-issue, shoring up your invuln save is one way to overcome the issues that I6 Halberds present. For the vanilla marine players, are there any other suggestions you can think of? :) Of course, Ironclads are another excellent choice, but with slow movement, it may not be the easiest thing to engage with Purifiers.

So, for BA, I've decided that Mephiston is a worthwhile element as his base initiative is 7. Striking first, he can likely kill enough models that they present little threat to him. Additionally, it forces your opponent to decide on wounding on 6s, but keeping access to force weapons or using hammer hand to force more wounds. Certainly, as with Vanilla Marines, Furioso Dreads are an excellent option, especially with Blood Talons, mounted in a storm raven. Watch out for hammer hand and daemon hammers, but I think that's a universal concern. Otherwise, Sanguinor/Dante with a priest nearby is also worthwhile, but even without one, they're still striking simultaneously.

With Eldar, I think you might see an increase in the rise of Harlequins. I know they're expensive and fragile, but with a natural I6, Furious Charge, and Hit and Run, they have the mobility and speed to really do some damage. With doom up, made easier to overcome the Aegis with RoW, these guys can really pull their weight. If not mounted, as usual, a Shadowseer is necessary, but this brings up the concern of Psyk-Out grenades. Forcing the Shadowseer to I1, I think is worthwhile to better protect them from devastating shooting from up to 24" away. The last two elements I like from Eldar are the Wraithlord who's natural toughness forces them to use Hammerhand to even hurt him but more than that would be Yriel. Another model at I7, he can wipe out a doomed squad with ease.

Anyways, I'm just spit-balling ideas here for the thoughts of units I'm more likely to consider due to the introduction of GK. With Purifiers being such a strong, versatile unit, I truly think that any army will need an answer for them. Given that leaving them to shoot is, I believe, a more dangerous option than engaging them in CC, what units/models are you now considering bringing to deal with I6 halberds on shooty purifiers? :)


TH/SS Termies. I:6 is wasted against them and they're pretty resilient, even against power weapons.

10 Halberd-toting Purifiers cost 260 points. Six TH/SS terminators cost 240. Which one wins in a fight basically comes down to who gets the charge.

[Denied]

TH/SS Termies. I:6 is wasted against them and they're pretty resilient, even against power weapons.

10 Halberd-toting Purifiers cost 260 points. Six TH/SS terminators cost 240. Which one wins in a fight basically comes down to who gets the charge.


Except no one in their right mind will take a group of 10 man purifiers with out at least 2 psycannons so the average cost goes up to about 296 and then you may as well grab a Daemon hammer so your at 304 but lets not forget a transport is ideal since you know it is extra protection and mobility so now we are at 344... but lets not forget before these Termies get near a purifier they have to march through a minimum of 24 inches worth of 8 str 7 rending shots then they have to pop the rhino, then they get to fight the purifiers........

[Bean]

Except no one in their right mind will take a group of 10 man purifiers with out at least 2 psycannons so the average cost goes up to about 296 and then you may as well grab a Daemon hammer so your at 304 but lets not forget a transport is ideal since you know it is extra protection and mobility so now we are at 344... but lets not forget before these Termies get near a purifier they have to march through a minimum of 24 inches worth of 8 str 7 rending shots then they have to pop the rhino, then they get to fight the purifiers........

Sure. Or, you know, they could be in a land raider, since foot-slogging assault terminators are nearly the dumbest unit in the game.

And, certainly, Grey Knights can blow up a land raider--those purifiers have a reasonable chance of doing it before it delivers those terminators--but they might not.

The OP was looking for units that can engage Purifiers in melee. Assault Terminators can. Nothing you posted really constitutes an objection to my suggestion.

[Image]

Right, I'm not looking to theory-hammer out overall strategies to beating a GK army with Purifiers in it, but rather a unit-by-unit comparison to what could be the scissors to the purifier paper. As mentioned, the Purifiers can throw down a terrifying amount of high-quality shooting from 24 inches away, so figuring out how to close that gap is up to each individual player. But due to their strength of shooting, I'm looking for close combat elements that are a worthwhile match up to the purifiers.

I'm silly because I forgot to mention Banshees. *facepalm*

But, Tyranids for example. Do their lash whips reduce the purifiers to I1 even with halberds equipped? I know warriors aren't a great choice due to force weapons, but what about Hive Tyrants? With Shadows of the Warp, that's some psychic defense, especially if equipped with Preferred Enemy and Lash Whips. Or even the Swarmlord? Is he a requirement now to fighting what we can expect to be Purifier spam? (disclaimer: not a Tyranid player nor am I very familiar with the codex. Those are legitimate questions. :)

[DarkLink]

Genestealers with FNP. Particularly Ymgarl genestealers randomly popping up and assaulting a unit on foot. GKs tend to stick to the midfield and the front of their deployment, giving you a lot of flexibility for where the ymgarls will hide.

Warriors will get force weapons (or even more likely they will get ID's by Psyrifle Dreads before ever seeing combat), and Tyrants are force weapon bait again, though they aren't something that I would want to get into CC with. Tyrants are just too expensive and isolated to singlehandedly deal with a bunch of GKs, though they certainly help deal with the problem.

[Kawauso]

But, Tyranids for example. Do their lash whips reduce the purifiers to I1 even with halberds equipped? I know warriors aren't a great choice due to force weapons, but what about Hive Tyrants? With Shadows of the Warp, that's some psychic defense, especially if equipped with Preferred Enemy and Lash Whips. Or even the Swarmlord? Is he a requirement now to fighting what we can expect to be Purifier spam? (disclaimer: not a Tyranid player nor am I very familiar with the codex. Those are legitimate questions. :)

Lash whips reduce halberd-bearers to I3. It reduces them to I1, then the halberds add +2. I think it's stupid, but that's how it works.

Shadow in the Warp is a MUST. Tyranids need it in a matchup against GK. It effectively shuts down force weapon instant death (which is a huge concern for big bugs) as well as nasty surprises like Cleaning Flame from Purifiers. On average with 3D6 they'll be rolling 9-12, which will occasionally work for units with a Justicar/Knight of the Flame still present, but most of the time they'll be failing their psychic tests, and they're much more vulnerable to Perils as well.

The games I've had against GK with 'nids have found Shadow in the Warp to be absolutely invaluable.

Deathleaper is handy, too, if they have something like a Librarian (he reduces a character's LD by D3 at the start of the game for as long as he remains alive). And he can actually put a dent in Strike Squads (1 attack per model hurts them a lot in CC, especially with the 'leaper's WS9. Also, being one of the only Tyranid units with assault grenades and having I7 is a great advantage for him, too. As is re-rolling to-hit rolls of a 1, and Rending on 5s and 6s.

He's best at reducing the effectiveness of psyker characters, though, and contesting objectives, since he has to come in via reserve and he has built-in defence against shooting (half Night Fighting to 'see' him, and Stealth). He's especially good at contesting objectives in area terrain - not just for the aforementioned rules, but also because he has Move Through Cover and forces enemies within 12" to roll -1 D6 for their own difficult terrain tests. All in all he's a really handy model for 140 points.

[Kawauso]

Warriors will get force weapons (or even more likely they will get ID's by Psyrifle Dreads before ever seeing combat)

Warriors don't have much to fear from force weapons. SitW is pretty effective at shutting those down. You're bang on about the Psyfle Dreads, though. I don't really use Warriors against GK because of those things.

Also good call on the Ymgarl 'stealers. They're pretty handy against GK.

[DarkLink]

Brotherhood Banners.

But, yes, Force Weapons are a much lesser threat to Warriors, at least against Purifiers and small Terminator units. Unfortunately for Warriors, there are Psyrifle Dreads...


Sure. Or, you know, they could be in a land raider, since foot-slogging assault terminators are nearly the dumbest unit in the game.

Pretty much, with the exception of GKTs since they don't lose the ability to shoot with their assaulty upgrades.



And, certainly, Grey Knights can blow up a land raider--those purifiers have a reasonable chance of doing it before it delivers those terminators--but they might not.

Land Raiders are the best way of delivering assault terminators and the like into the center of GK lines. One of the reasons I take Coteaz with a couple melta acolyte squads, so they can Rhino-block the Land Raider and hopefully melta it.



The OP was looking for units that can engage Purifiers in melee. Assault Terminators can. Nothing you posted really constitutes an objection to my suggestion.

THSS Terminators, Genestealers, Blood Crushers, and there are a couple high-I/great Invulnerable Save/Eternal Warrior HQs scattered throughout the game.

Most else will get pretty badly hurt in the process, though there are plenty of other things that can hurt purifiers. They just won't get away relatively unharmed.

[Bean]

Pretty much, with the exception of GKTs since they don't lose the ability to shoot with their assaulty upgrades.


That's why I said Assault Terminators, not GKTs. ;)




Land Raiders are the best way of delivering assault terminators and the like into the center of GK lines. One of the reasons I take Coteaz with a couple melta acolyte squads, so they can Rhino-block the Land Raider and hopefully melta it.


Yeah. One of those nice utility roles rhinos can fill.



THSS Terminators, Genestealers, Blood Crushers, and there are a couple high-I/great Invulnerable Save/Eternal Warrior HQs scattered throughout the game.

Most else will get pretty badly hurt in the process, though there are plenty of other things that can hurt purifiers. They just won't get away relatively unharmed.

Most of these won't get away unharmed, either, honestly. TH/SS termies are along the lines of an even-ish match--not a straight-up win. Same goes for Genestealers, really. It's more like things that stand a chance at winning and things that don't. But yeah. These are basically the options. Harlequins and banshees can do it if they get in. I imagine there are a few other options (and Genestealers have similar problems in the getting in department.) Honestly, mechanized shooting is the way to deal with these guys--they have good anti-tank, but they lose a lot of it by moving or sitting in rhinos. Mech Eldar or Mech Guard play pretty well against Purifiers without changing up their lists much.

[Denied]

So is the question what will beat Purifiers in initiative or just what will face-pound Purifiers into the ground in CC, since it was made clear we are ignoring shooting phase.

I mean I was under the impression everyone had heard the big secret that Grey Knights are not an assault army, there are so many things that can face-pound purifiers away it's not even funny (T-wolves, Terminators, Nobz, hell an Ork Boyz squad can even get lucky and out last a single purifier squad if it really tries).

If the question is what has the ability to either reduce the Halbred purifiers initiative or what has a higher initiative then 6 that I can understand, but whats it matter? Again Grey Knights are not an assault army they are a mid range shooting/ dance army that wont instantly disappear in assault phase, but by no means is it a Blood Angles list or Ork blob list. Almost everything dangerous the Grey Knights can do happens between 6-24". The amount of power they have in assaults is on pare with your basic MEQ.

[Image]

So is the question what will beat Purifiers in initiative or just what will face-pound Purifiers into the ground in CC, since it was made clear we are ignoring shooting phase.

I mean I was under the impression everyone had heard the big secret that Grey Knights are not an assault army, there are so many things that can face-pound purifiers away it's not even funny (T-wolves, Terminators, Nobz, hell an Ork Boyz squad can even get lucky and out last a single purifier squad if it really tries).

If the question is what has the ability to either reduce the Halbred purifiers initiative or what has a higher initiative then 6 that I can understand, but whats it matter? Again Grey Knights are not an assault army they are a mid range shooting/ dance army that wont instantly disappear in assault phase, but by no means is it a Blood Angles list or Ork blob list. Almost everything dangerous the Grey Knights can do happens between 6-24". The amount of power they have in assaults is on pare with your basic MEQ.

Well, let's consider that for a second.

Ork hordes are actually pretty weak against Purifiers with Halberds. Consider that Purifying Flames, if successfully cast, will wipe out almost half of that boyz squad before they even get to attack, followed up by the high rate of attacks that the purifiers offer. Assuming the boyz don't wipe out the squad, which they probably won't, the purifiers will have won the combat, forcing more fearless saves on the boyz. I know boyz are cheap, but purifying flames is a ridiculously strong counter.

BA are even worse off against GK Purifiers, I think. Especially when Halberds are concerned, they're striking at a higher initiative than the BA and ignoring their FNP, both of which are provided by priests. I wouldn't say that priests are useless for BA against GK - as you said, GK are a shooting list, but in CC against halberds, Blood Angels definitely lose their edge.

As such, this isn't necessarily a conversation about which unit has a higher Initiative than Halberd-Purifiers, but more so a conversation about what CC element you feel your army can bring to handle them in CC. I understand that some armies just won't be able to do that and will have to simply outshoot them, but Purifiers having access to I6 halbers, strengthened by hammerhand for MEQ, supported by Purifying Flames for hordes, or simple force weapons for multi-wound models (looking at you, Ork-biker nobs), they really are a swiss-army knife unit.

So, how do you either create weakness in the purifiers, how do you shore up your own weaknesses, or how do you exploit your strengths? One way to create weakness in purifiers using Eldar is to use Shimmershield-Defend Exarchs for Dire Avengers. You reduce their number of attacks and maintain an invulnerable save. I'm not suggesting it turns into an auto-win - unless you couple it with doom/fortune - but you can certainly hinder the purifiers output.

[DarkLink]

GKs might not be an assault army, but anything with poor psychic defense and relatively low model count is in serious trouble unless it can hit before I6 against Purifiers.

TWolf Cavalry are actually weak against them, for example, unless backed up by a Rune Priest for the psychic defense. Otherwise they'll lose a lot of the squad to force weapons, and they're more expensive than purifiers so trading units doesn't work well for them.




Ultimately, though, this is the important thing to understand about GKs. They shoot things up, then they finish them off in assault. Whether it's opening up Chimeras then killing Guardsmen, or whittling down orks/Marines then finishing off the weakened unit with a counter charge, they always shoot then assault afterwards. A lot of noobz play them as an assault army and fail, and a lot of smarter noobz play them as a shooty army and do a little better, but the people who know what they're doing know how to avoid and shoot the dangerous units (Land Raider full of THSS Terminators), then once it's exposed and weakened overwhelm it in CC.

GKs aren't an assault army, but they aren't a shooty army either.

[Bean]

They are, infact, exactly what Codex Marines are supposed to be. Grey Knights, though, actually do it well.

[Moros]

There is only 1 unit that can always beat the living crap outta halberds and purifiers in melee. That is a deamon of khorne with blessing of the blood god.

A deamon prince with blessing of the blood god is a 100% kill on any purifier unit if he gets them in melee (since that's what we are talking about). He has a 2++ save and will kill probably 5 of them a turn. Skulltaker on a crusher, heralds, thirsters, fleshhounds all totally demolish GKs.

The only chance they have is to shoot blessing of the blood god units down... which is quite easy for them. Flesh hounds in conjunction with heavy melee hitters really do a number on GK. Just tie them up with flesh hounds then proceed to annihilate them with a big baddy

And before anybody says it, no, dark excommunication is not a valid comeback... absolutely nobody takes it and it only works on 1 unit... just multi-charge and slay the libby that has it.

[Bean]

Dreadknights get Dark Excommunication for free, and they can survive long enough to put it to good use.

That said, yes--Blessing of the Blood God is a hilarious kick in the pants for Grey Knights.

[DarkLink]

I'm pretty sure pure Khorne with BotBG spam is literally the most difficult list for GKs to face, period. They're tough enough that you can't reliably shoot down everything before it reaches your lines, and if you get into combat with them they become virtually invulnerable. About the only saving grace is that Bloodcrushers don't have BotBG.

[Image]

Hmm... I'm a little surprised at how well they could do, due to BotBG, as you mentioned. I thought for sure that GK would spell the undeniable end of daemons in competitive play, but it's good to know that GKs have counters seen from earlier codexes.

[Xas]

trying to out-melee purifiers is a bad idea. not because it cannot be done but because shooting them dead is SO MUCH EASIER.

if you absolutely need to:
gaunt of choice + catalyst and/or shadow (to mitigate their evil spell). once it has hit you twice with the fancy blade it is only a marine. for allmost twice the price...

deamonettes (basically the same as gaunts. more expensive but come with an invul vs both the flame and normal attacks and dish out the hurt well with rending).

as said before: blood's blessing

wyches/bloodbrides (preferably with FNP. excellent if charging with FC). you can go before them if the star allign well (2 pain tokens + charge) and any type of wyche weapon really hurts purifiers (either they loose allmost half their attacks to shardnets or they are slain by razorflails that do a good job at negating their toughness advantage) and a 4+save against everything they can trow at you (in low quantities) is awesome.
add the ever present agoniser and prolly a HQ of your choice (which both good ones start at i7+) and its a cakewalk.

thinking of it... if you want to go kinky an archon with shadowfield can prolly kill them solo if you can keep rolling 2+s :P

a good idea in general is to field a swarm unit and a amulti-wound HQ (which you position away from hammers) so the purifiers have to decide to either try and forceweapon the fatty or roast the gribblies. if 30 hormagaunts and a carnifex attack you both alternatives are very bad (even though roasting the gaunts would be the better alternative for combat resolution).

swamping them with MEQ can also be effective. even if your power armor suddenly is worth as much as a wet shirt it is better to counter-hit with 2A and only have them hit with 2A instead of yourself hitting with 1 and they with 3. power armor will most likely absorb the firestorm.

[Moros]

Dreadknights get Dark Excommunication for free, and they can survive long enough to put it to good use.

That said, yes--Blessing of the Blood God is a hilarious kick in the pants for Grey Knights.

Doesn't matter, even without the gifts a bloodthirster still takes down a dreadknight, not to mention skulltaker is the absolute bane of them. I wouldn't get 100 dreadknights anywhere near skulltaker, he'll win.

[Kawauso]

a good idea in general is to field a swarm unit and a amulti-wound HQ (which you position away from hammers) so the purifiers have to decide to either try and forceweapon the fatty or roast the gribblies. if 30 hormagaunts and a carnifex attack you both alternatives are very bad (even though roasting the gaunts would be the better alternative for combat resolution).


A combined charge from a Trygon Prime and a unit of Gaunts ought to do the trick for something like that. They both have fleet/move through cover, so it's viable, and the Prime provides Shadow in the Warp coverage for psychic protection (and making the Gaunts fearless...which may or may not be good). The Prime will also, on average, kill about 5 Purifiers off the charge on its own (they're WS5, right? if not then he can easily kill 6-7). The Gaunts will help with the rest...and really hammers should be nothing to worry about.

[Bean]

A combined charge from a Trygon Prime and a unit of Gaunts ought to do the trick for something like that. They both have fleet/move through cover, so it's viable, and the Prime provides Shadow in the Warp coverage for psychic protection (and making the Gaunts fearless...which may or may not be good). The Prime will also, on average, kill about 5 Purifiers off the charge on its own (they're WS5, right? if not then he can easily kill 6-7). The Gaunts will help with the rest...and really hammers should be nothing to worry about.

They're only WS 4. Even so, 5 is what you should expect--even with re-rolls from double scything talons. Six isn't way out there, but seven is.

The real problem is that they still swing first--and all but one of them will swing against the gaunts. Your Trygon will kill five or six, if they get their psychic power off, you won't have enough gaunts left to kill anyone. The Purifiers will kill just under half of your gaunts about half the time, plus about eight from swings. Charge in with twenty gaunts? You should expect to lose combat by 11 or 12--which is enough saves that your Trygon will probably die to should die to combat resolution without the Grey Knights ever having to attack it.

In other words, your idea is pretty bad. The trygon on its own has a better chance.

Of course, with shots, you can expect the grey knights to be pared down a bit before the Trygon gets there--and you can expect the Trygon to be dead before it gets there. So, better not plan to rely on shots.

If they don't get their psychic power off, you're in somewhat better shape, but only somewhat--you'll still lose combat that first round. And of course, there's no delivery mechanism that can bring a trygon safely into combat against purifiers without being shot to death first--and the Trygon is about as expensive as they are.

[Image]

To me, Purifiers are the new TH/SS Terminators. You really need a solution to deal with them. As mentioned, perhaps shooting is the best approach, but the difference is that the Purifiers can outshoot a lot of units and they don't have an invulnerable save, making them less durable to a plethora of options.

I do feel really bad for Tyranids (and Tau) when matched up against GK. But I think Bean's right, the Trygon would be better suited on his own when fighting against Purifiers. Tyranids really need a way to quickly close the gap and assault those purifiers right away.

[Kawauso]

They're only WS 4. Even so, 5 is what you should expect--even with re-rolls from double scything talons. Six isn't way out there, but seven is.

The real problem is that they still swing first--and all but one of them will swing against the gaunts. Your Trygon will kill five or six, if they get their psychic power off, you won't have enough gaunts left to kill anyone. The Purifiers will kill just under half of your gaunts about half the time, plus about eight from swings. Charge in with twenty gaunts? You should expect to lose combat by 11 or 12--which is enough saves that your Trygon will probably die to should die to combat resolution without the Grey Knights ever having to attack it.

In other words, your idea is pretty bad. The trygon on its own has a better chance.

Of course, with shots, you can expect the grey knights to be pared down a bit before the Trygon gets there--and you can expect the Trygon to be dead before it gets there. So, better not plan to rely on shots.

If they don't get their psychic power off, you're in somewhat better shape, but only somewhat--you'll still lose combat that first round. And of course, there's no delivery mechanism that can bring a trygon safely into combat against purifiers without being shot to death first--and the Trygon is about as expensive as they are.

11-12 fearless wounds are not going to get through 6 wounds on 3+ armour saves, on average. Only 3-4 wounds wound be taken.

And really, on average is about all we can account for in these scenarios, because this is strictly theory/mathhammer.

On average, it's unlikely that the GK will manage to get any psychic powers off thanks to the Trygon's SitW. If they do, they'd have to choose between Cleansing Flame for the Gaunts (which is probably the best move, as mentioned), or force weapons for the MC.

A unit of 10 purifiers is going to have 2-4 psycannons in it, and probably a hammer, so that's really only 5-7 halberds, netting 10-14 I6 attacks. Against the Trygon, those halberds would probably only get in about 1 wound. Against the Gaunts they can be expected to kill 5-6 models, which really isn't that great.

Now of course if they get off a Cleansing Flame or something, the 'nids are screwed. But that can be said about pretty much any psychic power GK want to use against 'nids. 'Nids need SitW to prevent that from happening, but it does a really good job of it, on average.

And of course, this isn't accounting for shooting, etc. etc. (not just the GKs, but the Trygon could shoot too, remember). But hey, this is all just theory and averages. :)

[DarkLink]

THSS Termanators are annoying because they just don't die. Purifiers are nothing like that. They're tough to deal with in cc, so don't be stupid enough to try it, unless you have one of the few units that can handle them. Poor orks.



a good idea in general is to field a swarm unit and a amulti-wound HQ (which you position away from hammers) so the purifiers have to decide to either try and forceweapon the fatty or roast the gribblies. if 30 hormagaunts and a carnifex attack you both alternatives are very bad (even though roasting the gaunts would be the better alternative for combat resolution).

As Bean mentioned, this is a really bad idea. It might not outright kill a Trygon from no retreat, but he won't be too happy. And if he takes a wound or two from the unit then he probably won't live.



swamping them with MEQ can also be effective.

Really? So you want to lose half your guys before they ever get to strike, and you want to do it with a unit that isn't durable enough or cheap enough to win out in the long run?

[Bean]

You did catch me out in an error, Kawasou: the trygon has six wounds and I was thinking it only had four. The no retreat wounds from a successful purifying flame (or whatever that's called) probably won't kill the Trygon.

It's also true that the unit will likely have guns and hammers that change the disposition of its melee attacks.

I maintain, though, that the inclusion of Gaunts is substantially more of a liability than a benefit. Similarly, if the Purifiers are tooled up with their psycannons, the combined shooting/assault of the Trygon (a unit similar in price) is not going to match up well against the combined shooting/assault of the Purifiers. Purifiers will still likely win that engagement, overall--and, unlike Assault Termies, the Trygon doesn't really have a delivery mechanism which can take shots out of the formula.

[Xas]

Really? So you want to lose half your guys before they ever get to strike, and you want to do it with a unit that isn't durable enough or cheap enough to win out in the long run?

Man you simply do not make any sense.

How do even 10 purifiers kill "half my guys" if I'm talking about "swarming" them with MEQ? Reality check: 10 purifiers have 20 Attacks @ s4/5 which results in 25%/33% kills/hit ergo 5/7 (+/- luck). That is nowhere near "half"" of a swarming attack. If you only charge with a tactical squad at once you haven't understood the concept of swarming at all (basically swarming means going 4:1).

Engaging with a "fair" force is never a good idea and the skill of playing lies in creating a series of unfair battles that are skewed towards yourself and result in your oponents destruction.

As a purifier is only a t4 3+/- model after his psychic power and 2 I6 s4 attacks the trick is to bring enough stuff so you have enough left to kill the afterwards.



genereally if you think that charging (horma) gaunts will not do damage to a t4 3+ unit you are living in a nice and cosy "reality denial bubble". trygon + 30+ gaunts + catalyst = dead purificators. If you want to be shure make it two trygons and leave the catalyst at home to lure the GK into flaming&attacking the gaunts (and not suddenly go lucky to both pass the lds9 3d6 test and put a wound one each trygon :P)

[DarkLink]

What about it doesn't make sense? Purifiers with I6 halberds are really good at killing T4 models with comparatively low I and no invulnerable saves. If you really want to throw a ton of points in an attempt to kill something as inefficiently as possible, go ahead. That doesn't make it a smart move.

To use your example of 4:1; 10 Purifiers with 1 Hammer, 7 halberds and 2 psycannons is ~280pts. 40 Tactical Marines is 680pts, minimum. There's probably another 50pts of upgrades depending on weapon choice, and even more if you like Power Fists. What happened to the rest of the GK army? Does your opponent feel sorry for you so you're playing with a handicap?


If you have 40 Tactical Marines, why would you even assault? You'd probably have 4 meltas, some heavy weapons, and 32 bolters. Just shoot the crap out of the Purifiers. Just the 32 Bolters will kill 7 on average.


What I'm saying, in case you didn't figure it out, is "no #$#& will you win combat if you have three times as many points as he does locked in combat". But because you're completely ignoring not only both unit's shooting, but also the rest of both players armies (both of which have a massive effect on how the game will play).



While we're making stupid comparisons, here's the ultimate way of killing 10 Purifiers in CC. Take Dante or whoever the BA character that grants +1A, three LR Crusaders full of 7 THSS Terminators with a Chaplain in each, and assault the Purifiers all at once. And fit in a Librarian to block their psychic powers. And get three Storm Ravens with Blood Talon Dreadnoughts to also assault them. And don't bother shooting anything first, guns totally don't matter.

See, only about 2700points to absolutely guarantee those pesky Purifiers will die, no matter how bad your dice are.

[Image]

I can definitely appreciate what you're saying Xas and I think it's worthwhile to mention that. I'm not looking at point-for-point comparisons for purifiers. I recognize that in the outcome of a game, ideal circumstances aren't going to always occur, but am curious as to how others are intending on beating out the purifiers in CC.

But let's consider that 4:1 swarming. Bringing it down to a single Purifier with halberd vs 4 MEQ as it may be the easiest way to math-hammer it out, in addition to assuming he gets his psychic powers off, without anyone charging.

With hammerhand:

2 attacks hitting 4s = 1 hit
1 hit at S5 vs T4 = 0.667 wounds.

Retaliation

3 (due to lower initiative and likely losing one model) attacks hitting on 4s = 1.5 hits
1.5 hits wounding on 4s = .75 wounds
Armour save at 3+ = .25 wounds.

With Purifying Flame

2 models wounded, armour saves = 0.667 wounds
2 attacks hitting 4s = 1 hit
1 hit at S4 vs T4 = 0.5 wounds
Totalling: 1.167 wounds

Obviously, I could be wrong on these numbers, but it seems to me like the more you throw at the Purifiers, the better chance they have at doing more wounds to you. With Purifying Flames (Cleansing Flames? Whatever.) and halberds, the Purifiers get a skewed chance of doing damage because they have two opportunities to attack before most armies which. Against higher model count opponents this is likely to be the better choice of psychic powers over hammer hand. Moreover, charging obviously changes these aspects, but let's take it to the extreme.

40 MEQ charging 10 Purifiers with Halberds

Purifying Flames goes off = 20 wounds
After armour Saves = 6.66 wounds
20 Attacks = 10 hits
10 hits = 5 wounds

28.34 MEQ remaining, rounding to 29 for arguments sake

29 charging MEQ = 58 Attacks
58 Attacks = 29 hits
29 Hits at S4 vs T4 = 14.5 Wounds
Rounding to 15, 3+ Armour Saves = 5 dead Purifiers.

Purifiers win by 5.

Next Round

Purifying Flames goes off = 14.5 wounds
Rounding to 15, after 3+ Armour Saves = 5 wounds.
10 Attacks vs WS4 = 5 hits
5 hits = 2.5 wounds

Total: 7.5 wounds.

Rounding down to 7 wounds total

22 MEQ retaliate = 11 hits
11 hits at S4 vs T4 = 5.5 wounds
Rounding up to 6, then 3+ Armour Saves = 3 wounds

Purifiers Win by 4.

2 Purifiers Remaining

Purifying Flames goes off = 11 wounds
After armour saves = 3 wounds, rounded down.
4 attacks at WS4 = 2 hits
2 hits at S4 = 1 wound

4 wounds total

18 MEQ Retaliate = 9 hits
9 hits at S4 = 4.5 wounds
Rounding up to 5, after armour saves = 1.665

Killing the Purifiers.

If I made any mistakes in the numbers, please correct them! Again, this isn't the most accurate way of portraying the combat, as things like Power Fist or even sergeants weren't considered, but neither were No Retreat wounds if any of the MEQ fled and were caught.

So yeah, the 40 MEQ will wipe out the Purifiers after a few turns, but not without the Purifiers wiping out more than half of them. Due to Halberds, perhaps there's that much more of a reason to bring fists.

Thoughts/corrections?

[Bentron]

Interesting topic Image.

I fear that this thread has become a bit of a numbers/theoryhammer thread, in which case I think you'll be hard pressed to make any clear "hard-counter" to the Purifiers (or the GKs as a whole.) Purifiers in Warhammer 40k aren't like units in Warmachine, where a hard-counter usually exists. Supported with psychic powers such as Warp Rift, you are unable to deep strike close to them without serious difficulties, so really you're looking at closing the distance and getting first strike, or out ranging them and getting first strike. Basically first strike is key, which normally means that you need to apply more pressure than in equivalent point value. Yes, this makes Theoryhammerists upset, but seeing how I'm a theoryhammer kind of guy, I would like to think that we can come to the conclusion that some armies work best by "Wolf Packing" specific high priority units, and others are just power-houses that don't need to do that. GKs are amazing, point per point, and you're going to have a hard time making light work of their units with equivalent point values.

My philosophy is that overall, they're just MEQs. So when shooting at Purifiers, anything that works on MEQs works on them. Thus, the best techniques are to shoot them first because you don't want to be on the receiving end of their very strong shooting, as well as great CC.

Addressing the OP's armies in question I think some of the best techniques available have already been mentioned. See those first, and if you'd like some other options, see below.

Eldar
-2 Waveserpents with DAs on Reserve. Doom the Purifiers and it's over. They can move up 12", exit the vehicle 2", shoot 18" with 32 shots. Two units will clear the 10 Purifiers and then some in a single volley.
-Howling Banshees (Yikes, I know, right?) can actually strike before the Halberds, and if Doomed, can off the unit with very little difficulty. The problem is getting them close enough.
-Other solutions as posted. (Yriel can ace a unit by himself, fortuned Avatar, etc)

BA
-As mentioned. Don't forget that Yes, the I6 Halberds will hurt, but you can hit back too. 5 man Razorback squads won't cut it, but 10 man assault marines can and will, especially when supported.
-Flamestorm Cannon Baal Preds that outflank. Pop their transport with your long range ack-ack and then flame the gooey innards.

C:SM
-If Deep striking is an option, flamers work.
-A 10 man unit of Sternguard led by Lysander will cause lots of pain via shooting.
-10 Terminators on foot with Lysander and Libby (including Avenger power for great justice) and 2 CMLs. Tele-strike them and off half the unit, then either finish them with other shooting or assault them next turn (you can take them, lol)
-There are many other options, like TH/SS Terminators (as mentioned) or even catching them in the open (they're not always in terrain) and offing them with AP3 or better weaponry. (I'm a huge fan of Plasma-bath Sternguard.)


Finally,
When in doubt, keep your mission objectives in mind. It's not worth dedicating your whole army to killing them, otherwise they've definitely done their job. They're just something that players will have to take a few hits from, or capitalize on if your opponent makes a fatal mistake with them.

Best,

-Bentron

[Anggul]

I saw that Halberds raised Initiative by +2 instead of the +1 I expected and thought: Dark Eldar are going to have a hard time with this. Even the normally unstoppable Incubi get murdered in combat with them. I think the best way is to shoot them down really, as in combat the only thing which will get the job done is your HQ, something like a soul-trapped Archon should hopefully mince most of them nicely.

[Demonus]

I would think Howling Banshees and a Farseer dooming the Halberd guys would be a good way to deal with them from an Eldar perspective. Decent amount of PW attacks on I10, need 5s to wound but you get a reroll.

Shooting them with Fragons and Wraithguard would work too :)

[DarkLink]

Right, dealing with them isn't that crazy hard. Just shoot them. You can kill them in assault, sure, but they're good enough that they'll cause a lot of damage. So just shoot them.