Why don't we ever hate on..... [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Grailkeeper

06-06-2011, 01:35 PM

Psychosplodge

06-06-2011, 01:45 PM

I dislike how difficult it can be to source alternatives to GW, does any independent carry a full range of any system?

Although even GW stopped stocking their full range instore....

Emperorsmercy

06-06-2011, 02:01 PM

I dislike the amount of metal in their range, because I hate the stuff. The prices per model are slightly higher than GW but, as the PP fanboys/girls point out:

"YOU NEED LESS MODELS! NOW CAN YOU SEE WHY WARMACHINE IS BETTER? LESS MODELS! LESS MODELS IS BETTER FOR SOME REASON!"

(Sorry, that's not something strictly about Privateer Press itself- they make good models. But when people somehow make the case that needing less models is better, it annoys me. You get far more models for your money with Games Workshop so yes, while you do need less models which does make it a little cheaper, you'll have a far larger range of models which mostly being plastic you can style to your hearts content.)

Luke Licens

06-06-2011, 02:01 PM

I don't know that much about privateer press so it might not be that fair for me to criticise. What are their prices like/ how often do they raise them?

One thing I'm where I will criticise them- its quite hard to get their fluff as an outsider- (or at least for me it is) I played 40k for years before I bought a black library book, and never bought the rule book, yet I always had a very solid knowledge of who was what etc. Without buying anything the most I can get off PP is "Khador are a bit russian" etc. has anyone else had this problem or is there a fluff resource I don't know about tailored towards No0bs?

Quick edit: This is particularly bad as every Warmachine/hordes army is lead by a named character- 1. How do I find out what the characters are like and start an army if its so hard to find out the fluff 2. I like Generic characters who I can give their own personality to, rather than have to rely on a special one. Abaddon the despoiler is not going to turn up to every petty scrap in the galaxy.

(I like the way Malifaux gives a taster of the fluff on the back of its boxes, everyone should do that)

I'm kind of confused. How can a game with 30 years of convoluted, self contradictory and arbitrary fluff be easier to comprehend than a game that started out as a 3rd edition D&D setting?

You want to know about the nature of the factions in Warmahordes? Head to your FLGS and ask to read the store copy of Prime/Primal (mk2). Each of those core books comes with more fluff for each faction than the entire BBB has for the whole galaxy.

Or you could just cheat, like I usually do. GO GO GADET-KIPEDIA!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warmachine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HORDES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Kingdoms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khador
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectorate_of_Menoth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryx

EDIT: I'm right with you on the amount of metal in their ranges. I hates me some metal. Always getting bent and chipped, and wearing out my blades and drill bits...

wittdooley

06-06-2011, 02:11 PM

Just to be clear, I didn't want to single out PP here. This was a tongue-in-cheek effort to point out things that irritate us about any non-GW miniatures company.

To some answers:

Grail: If we're looking at price/model, then they're right on par with GW. Honestly, most companies making a similar quality mini to that of GW/PP are near the same. You're looking at $10-14 on average for a 28mm metal fig.

They're fluff frustrates me for this reason: there isn't enough of it. I'm eagerly waiting for their first novel, but as it presently stands, the only place for you to get fluff is in their rulebooks. I quite enjoyed the short story in the Trollbloods rulebook. I want more of it.

energongoodie

06-06-2011, 02:15 PM

Since GW is the one that seems to get all the hate,

You always hurt the one you love the most.

I'm a bit annoyed at the points system in Dust Tactics. They use a simple standard system in the starter box that is bobbins and a better system they have called 'tournament' points but none of the cards you get with the figures support the new better system.

MarneusCalgar

06-06-2011, 02:56 PM

Since GW is the one that seems to get all the hate, I think it's appropriate to have a modest thread regarding things that irritate you about other gaming companies. So feel free to chime in. I 'll get us started.

....Privater Press?

Nice try buddy!!

I´m getting tired that in last weeks almost every news thread is about GW moaning...

I hate that Asmodee and Rackham had to desist their work and killed their games Helldorado and Confrontation/Hybrid/Cadwallon/Rag´Narok, respectively...

From Rackham I´ve seen most of the best models I´ve hardly even seen on a gaming table!!!

henrythesecond

06-06-2011, 03:04 PM

One thing I'm where I will criticise them- its quite hard to get their fluff as an outsider- (or at least for me it is) I played 40k for years before I bought a black library book, and never bought the rule book, yet I always had a very solid knowledge of who was what etc. Without buying anything the most I can get off PP is "Khador are a bit russian" etc. has anyone else had this problem or is there a fluff resource I don't know about tailored towards No0bs?

I agree with pretty much everyone else involved with miniatures hobbies - it's a damned expensive way to spend our leisure time! But I don't see how we can criticise a company for not giving away their intellectual property as a 'freebie'. Ultimately, these companies have to make money (and usually a lot of it) in order to remain financially viable and continue making the stuff we crave to play our games.

I know A LOT of GW stuff can be obtained, shall we say, 'less than legally' on the internet. But I don't go that way myself. Not through any 'holier than thou' misguided nonsense, but because if I don't think something is worth the money, I simply don't buy it. If it is, I do.

I know everyone has their own ideals and their own limited supply of gold coins, but surely we can't criticise folk for taking their due?

Just my 2p worth, though...

Grailkeeper

06-06-2011, 03:54 PM

I get my stuff legally, but I'm not going to join a game if I don't like the fluff. Particularly warmachine where the fluff seems more integral- as you have to use a special character for your general. I think they should make enough to give you a basic grounding in who is who and what each faction is like.

I' not suggesting that they give everything away for free. For example GW 40k should say that the reason we have chaos marines is there was a rebeliion in 30k where some of the space marines turned against the Emperor. People who want to know more can pay to find out about the exact battles, the roles of the custodes, malcador etc

Deadlift

06-06-2011, 04:09 PM

DoctorEvil

06-06-2011, 04:50 PM

I'm starting to gain some "hate" for PP. Some of the things I "hate" about them......

-When you Warcaster dies, game over : Seriously??? Can you imagine Space Marines quitting if their Captain fall in battle? No, that would just make them angrier!!! Yet, in Warmachine if you leader falls, you quit the battle. Warmachine Troops are pansies.

-PP hates fat people : They sell nice T-Shirts on their webstore in sizes S, M, L & XL. NOTHING is 3XL or above. Seriously, a good percentage of gamers are big dudes. Yet, no love in the T-Shirt department for the fat guys at PP.

BuFFo

06-06-2011, 05:02 PM

I don't know that much about privateer press so it might not be that fair for me to criticise. What are their prices like/ how often do they raise them?

Once every 5 years. When it did happen, PP provided an apology letter for the raising material costs, and provided charts and sheets showing how the raise in costs affected their raise in materials.

Has GW shown how a decrease in material costs for garbagecast translated into an increase cost for YOU?

BrokenWing

06-06-2011, 05:03 PM

C.of.N.finity

06-06-2011, 05:16 PM

I'll throw some hate in here.

PP is complete contradiction of a game. It's fluff and models portrays it as a fluffy character filled army game but in reality plays more like a game of chess where the models don't act anywhere near their fluff despite rules otherwise.

Other then getting into a myriad of examples unit by unit, let’s just say it's silly to think that one of these famous warcasters is going to be at every engagement that ever takes place during this war that defies all sense and logistics...seriously; some factions should have been wiped out by now. Furthermore, the idea that the entire army loses interest in the fight because their Jedi general is gone is absurd. These are two big factors in why the game plays like chess and not like an army based miniatures game or anything like the fluff would have you believe. Hell, I'm going to add a third reason because the hate flows through me - I'm tired of every unit and jack being 'the best damn thing eva!' because really, if it's that good, it usually dies on turn one or two and doesn't feel like the best anything.

Has GW shown how a decrease in material costs for garbagecast translated into an increase cost for YOU?

They don't need to, I don't sit on their board nor am I an economist, and engineer or work for either company. If I don't like it, I don't buy it. Besides, you don't know if any of those numbers were actually true or not - hell, I'll give you a list of GW numbers and an apology if you like. Besides, their price hikes occur when they need them too, just like a unit of PP metal cavalry now seems to cost 100 bucks. Oh, and I'll take finecast models over the garbage that was any superiority model which PP had to actually had to come out and say "yeah, these are kind of hard to put together, they're 'advanced'". Should have come with an instruction manual in pinning.

Now, I'm going to be a huge hypocrite and say that hate threads shouldn't exist at all. GW hate threads should be closed as they really serve no purpose and if this thread is only tying to emulate those but with different games then it should probably be closed to.

DarkLink

06-06-2011, 05:37 PM

So you can't stand Warmachine because you have a general dislike for the concept of special characters?

C.of.N.finity

06-06-2011, 05:38 PM

So you can't stand Warmachine because you have a general dislike for the concept of special characters?

Not at all, nor did I say that anywhere. In fact, every unit within HoMachine is a 'special character' but wasn't my point at all.

Gir

06-06-2011, 05:57 PM

I've never played warmachine, and I don't plan to start. Not when models that look as bad as they do cost that much.

BuFFo

06-06-2011, 06:20 PM

I don't like Warmachine's fluff at all, it's thin and pretty terrible actually. "OMG IT"S LIKE STEAM PUNK AND STUFF?!?!?!" yeah....great....generic steam punk at that.

I also don't like the fairly large or at least very vocal number of Warmachine players that act like anyone not playing Warmachine is the biggest idiot in the world. Reminds me of some of the fans of a certain computer manufacturer..

I play Warmachine, and even I really do not like the fluff at all. I have been playing for years, and I have no clue what the setting is called, or where people come from, etc...

Now, I'm going to be a huge hypocrite and say that hate threads shouldn't exist at all. GW hate threads should be closed as they really serve no purpose and if this thread is only tying to emulate those but with different games then it should probably be closed to.

So no opinion should ever matter but your own, seriously?

Did you hear that Moderators? Delete all posts by anyone who isn't finity, or at the very least doesn't agree with finity, and only allow finity to start and respond to threads.

C.of.N.finity

06-06-2011, 06:36 PM

So no opinion should ever matter but your own, seriously?

Did you hear that Moderators? Delete all posts by anyone who isn't finity, or at the very least doesn't agree with finity, and only allow finity to start and respond to threads.

Thats fine, my post is a hate post so I welcome it. I recognized the hypocrisy of it did I not? I figure, if anything, that gives me immunity to being called out as a hypocrite as I've already done it, lol. I'd rather see my opinion muted then hate run rampent without any sense of purpose, which is often why I skip over some of your posts Buffo.

Fellend

06-06-2011, 06:50 PM

BrokenWing

06-06-2011, 06:51 PM

If I don't like the fluff of a game, I can't play it, doesn't matter if the rules were written by God and are the best rules ever conceived of in the history if reality.

Bean

06-06-2011, 07:57 PM

I played an amusing space-combat game called Babylon 5: a Call to Arms for a while. While it was an entertaining game, it had the most asinine point system imaginable--it pretty much boiled down to every ship being either 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, or 32 points.

Its one small complication basically just made the game worse by making it so that some ships arbitrarily cost more in some games than they do in others.

scadugenga

06-06-2011, 08:00 PM

wkz

06-06-2011, 08:44 PM

... Hell, I'm going to add a third reason because the hate flows through me - I'm tired of every unit and jack being 'the best damn thing eva!' because really, if it's that good, it usually dies on turn one or two and doesn't feel like the best anything...If you hate that, don't ever read Infinity's unit descriptions. Seriously, you'll blow a gasket.

Innovative game, unique fluff, interesting universe, great models (except some model's poses, and some "guaranteed to snap sooner or later" details)... but oh boy, EVERYONE is apparently a badass and every skirmish is approaching Crystal Jade Dragon Jesus vs Knight Templar Jesus vs Berserker Jesus vs "unlucky red-shirt-Rambo whose only purpose in the fluff is to sound competent BUT die horribly so the current main character can look good..."

Lexington

06-06-2011, 08:54 PM

I hate how Privateer Press strives to make excellent games that take place within an very interesting world, filled with clever takes on fantasy archetypes and fleshed-out, compelling factions. It's infuriating how much better their art is than the competition - really, who do they think they are, releasing gorgeous, full-color books with bold illustrations that capture the eye and the imagination? Such arrogance. What really gnaws my cheese, though? Their professional, friendly staff who are constantly interacting with the community in a constructive way, increasing player satisfaction and giving the company a human public face.

Seriously. Outrageous. ;)

One thing I'm where I will criticise them- its quite hard to get their fluff as an outsider- (or at least for me it is) I played 40k for years before I bought a black library book, and never bought the rule book, yet I always had a very solid knowledge of who was what etc. Without buying anything the most I can get off PP is "Khador are a bit russian" etc. has anyone else had this problem or is there a fluff resource I don't know about tailored towards No0bs?
Well, Prime is going to be your best bet here - it lays out the history and character of their factions very well, and gives you more than a little information on the world at large. The Faction books, of course, drill down into the specifics of their chosen subject, and your learn a lot about the other factions through the lens of that particular race.

What is difficult, I think, is getting good, detailed information on the events of the past few years in the Iron Kingdoms, which are fairly important. They're addressed briefly in Prime and the Faction books, but the events of the most recent wars involve a lot of detail narrative that simply aren't addressed in currently-printed material. I think some of the old MkI books are available for cheap in the PP online store, but it's not a great solution. Hopefully, something will address this soon.

Bean

06-06-2011, 09:05 PM

The most irritating thing about Privateer Press, by far, is the mindless fan-boy-ism it engenders. =P

Velium

06-06-2011, 09:05 PM

if privateer's minis looked anything near as good as the art did i would start warmahordes and never look back. frankly, i love the iron kingdoms d&d rules, i love the protectorate fluff and i love steampunk.

but i hate bad models. seriously, why do the jacks all have to have a bad case of derp-face? they dont look like robots, they look like downsies. i also really dont understand where people get off comparing the detail on PP's casts to GW casts. with a masterful paint job kreoss almost looks as good as a plastic warrior of chaos. wtf is with that? i wish i could love privateer, but i cant. because unless youre legally blind and everything is super fuzzy, their models always look like terrible in person.

wittdooley

06-06-2011, 09:35 PM

I hate how Privateer Press strives to make excellent games that take place within an very interesting world, filled with clever takes on fantasy archetypes and fleshed-out, compelling factions. It's infuriating how much better their art is than the competition - really, who do they think they are, releasing gorgeous, full-color books with bold illustrations that capture the eye and the imagination? Such arrogance. What really gnaws my cheese, though? Their professional, friendly staff who are constantly interacting with the community in a constructive way, increasing player satisfaction and giving the company a human public face.

Seriously. Outrageous. ;)

Well, Prime is going to be your best bet here - it lays out the history and character of their factions very well, and gives you more than a little information on the world at large. The Faction books, of course, drill down into the specifics of their chosen subject, and your learn a lot about the other factions through the lens of that particular race.

What is difficult, I think, is getting good, detailed information on the events of the past few years in the Iron Kingdoms, which are fairly important. They're addressed briefly in Prime and the Faction books, but the events of the most recent wars involve a lot of detail narrative that simply aren't addressed in currently-printed material. I think some of the old MkI books are available for cheap in the PP online store, but it's not a great solution. Hopefully, something will address this soon.

Stuff like this is another reason a lot of people won't play Warmahordes. Just because you play, or like, something different doesn't mean not-so-subtle jabs at the other are overlooked.

I like Warmahordes, but you're daft if you're really going to argue that the world of Warmahordes is that "fleshed out," particularly in comparison to the 40k/WHFB universes. It simply isn't. I'd LOVE for them to release a book. They haven't yet. I'd buy it the minute they did.

Back on track for the topic:

.....Cipher Studios

I love the HellDorado universe. I love that you resurrected the game. I need an English rulebook! I have a fully painted Westerners army ready to play! Gimme some rules!

Drew da Destroya

06-06-2011, 09:52 PM

Personally I'm so tired of Chess, Those damn Queens are overpowered. I mean here I play a peasant horde army but I just can't get her.

Also nerf horses, they jump over other models without having a wysiwyg jumppacks. So unrealistic

Winner. /thread.

I hate that Axis and Allies 1942 takes so long to play, and that my friends have too short of an attention span to actually sit down and play it. Furthermore, I hate that when we play the Games by Email version, Germany always quits when I'm doing ok against him, and pretty much kills the game because Japan doesn't want to control 2 nations at once. WTF? I'm controlling all 3 Allies, jerks.

I also hate that we're running the novice True20 Adventure right now, and every fight ends almost immediately when we hit/kill the leader. So far, in 2 fights, I've managed to throw an axe at one guy, and didn't even kill him. At least the DM says I can melt down their weapons and armor to improve our own.

I hate that Heart of the Swarm doesn't even have a release date for Blizzard to ignore. Same with Diablo 3. I hate that I'm not playing both games at once this instant.

I hate that I'm gonna be dropping piles of money on video games this year.... Skyrim, Space Marine, Gears 3, Deus Ex, Mass Effect 3, Starfox 3DS, probably Ocarana of Time (making it the 5th time I've bought it, I think). And I'm mega excited for all of them.

I hate how badly our cats poop smells, but I'm glad they get along well enough now that I don't have to keep a litterbox in our room anymore.

I hate that some jackhat broke into my car and stole my inspection sticker.

I hate that I have to get ready for work tomorrow.

That was pretty cathartic, actually. Thanks, OP!

daboarder

06-06-2011, 10:26 PM

eldargal

06-06-2011, 10:36 PM

I hate waking up at five in the bloody morning... except when its hunting season.

Anyway, I don't like the Warmahordes model range, I dont particularly like the game itself either though I've not played many games I admit. As far as skirmish games go I would rather play Necromunda, Mordheim (or Dystopian wars, not exactly a skirmish but fewer models needed than a 40k/WFB battle). I really hate the fanaticism of much of the PP fanbase. Why they insist on coming to primarily 40k/WFB forums and *****ing about the game systems is beyond me*. You don't like it, fine, but you have a Warmahordes section go talk about it there instead of *****ing about what we like in our spot. Especially stupid since I know quite a few of the PP staff themselves collect GW armies.:rolleyes:

PP raise prices less it is true, but then their models are already more expensive than GWs so one would hope they would anyway.

*The same applies to any EFB/40k fans who do the same to PP game forums, but I've not seen that in the PP section here or on Warseer.

Lexington

06-06-2011, 10:46 PM

Stuff like this is another reason a lot of people won't play Warmahordes. Just because you play, or like, something different doesn't mean not-so-subtle jabs at the other are overlooked.
Well, hey now. I'm sitting here, at this very moment, assembling bits from a Zagstrukk model (my first Finecast! Came out quite nice) for a conversion, whilst a Skaven army looms in the background for an upcoming campaign - some rabid anti-GW zealot I am not.

It's just that, in a time when GW seems to have taken up a new corporate hobby of simply antagonizing its own fanbase, it seems silly to me to start a thread dedicated to detailing complaints about other companies simply because GW "seems to get all the hate." I've got gripes with Privateer, Mantic, Wyrd and others, but they're minuscule issues compared to the big-box style idiocy that's been on display in Nottingham of late. Thus, I poke fun at the idea.

I like Warmahordes, but you're daft if you're really going to argue that the world of Warmahordes is that "fleshed out," particularly in comparison to the 40k/WHFB universes.
Well, there's not novel lines or video games set in the Iron Kingdoms - not yet, anyway - but I think PP's done a hell of a job with the world in the time they've had to do it with. The wargame rulebooks do quite a bit of heavy lifting when it comes to introducing Immoren's metaphysics, history, nations, politics and the like. If you want really nitty-gritty stuff, the Iron Kingdoms World and Character Guides are available for download from a few PDF RPG stores out there, which gives a much more detailed account of every aspect of the setting. As fantasy worlds go, it's pretty solid. Does it have the breadth of information available for 40K or Fantasy? Nope. It also doesn't have biohazards like Mat Ward eating away at its environment. There's an argument for brevity if ever there was one. ;)

murrburger

06-06-2011, 11:10 PM

I play Cryx. I've been looking at the game since MK I, but didn't get into it until Mk II. I have no interest in Hoards at all.

I don't really like the model desisgns. They suffer from what I call the 'warcraftness': huge pauldrons, giant weapons, and weird proportions on their humans/monsters.

I played Iron Kingdoms back before Warmachine, if you can believe it, and I thought it was garbage. The rules just... sucked. I'm not interested in their setting because honestly, it's pretty shallow. We have... Russians, Skeletor & Pirates, British, and Crazy Churchies.

Not to mention the characters are absolute stereotypes and every little thing is overblown and completely without subtlety.

In before someone responds to me with.

"I AM FERRUS MANUS OF THE IRON HANDS. AND I HAVE IRON HANDS."

wkz

06-07-2011, 12:27 AM

Lexington, you may be standing closer to the proverbial fence than I think you are, but given that the two posts is DRIPPING with praise for PP while it is absolutely poisonous for GW (promptly ignoring the opposite sides of both companies), I can't help but think "fanboy".

Not even a finecast Zagstrukk model and Skaven armies can save me from thinking so...

By the way: All the fluff for Iron Kingdoms is inside the rulebooks (6 of them, including Mk I?) and No Quarter. Sorry if I miss out on any other publications, I am a bit shaky on this... but even if there are, there is no way to compare to;

All the fluff for 40k is in Rogue Trader, Second Edition Rulebook, Third Edition rulebook, 4th edition BRB, 5th edition BRB, All of the 2nd to 5th edition codexes (that's at least 4 marine codexes, one Imperial, one CSM and 3 xenos per edition), old White Dwarves, old Chapter Approved, not to mention semi-canon stuff such as all of the "gaiden games" such as Epic (especially Epic Armageddon), Battlefield Gothic, Necromanda, Inquisitor, Fantasy Flight's RPGs (Rogue Trader, Inquisitor and DeathWatch) and all of the video games, not to mention the non-games: Black Library novels and comics.

Say what you want of Mat Ward and the killing of fluff, say what you will about "White Catelog Advertising", 40k does have a history simply because it has existed longer. And currently WarmaHordes just cannot match it, brevity arguments or not.

Corvus-Master-of-The-4th

06-07-2011, 12:28 AM

Fellend wins a +1 internet

fuzzbuket

06-07-2011, 12:38 AM

wkz

06-07-2011, 12:44 AM

frankly the prices are ridiculous

yes it may only be $100 for a army BUT thats only like 4 models -_-

oh and when i first saw the website i thought: 'WOW warjacks must be massive: look at the pics and prices!'

look at size comparison between jacks and infantry

PP i am dissapoint (note if all jacks were the extreme sculpts and were cheapish i would like warmahordes)
Dude, its not that bad for both cases:
a) $100 gets you a bit more than 4 PP models... unless you're talking about some of their optional elites such as Calvary (which sorts of translates to "EXTREME" 40k lists such as the 9 Landspeeder Spam), but for normal options PP can compare (GW does charge a bit for 5 plastic dudes with devastator options too).

b) Take your average 40k Infantry. Take your average 40k Walker/Monster. Compare. Now compare the size difference between Jacks and Infantry in WarmaHordes. You'll realize the size difference is LARGER on the 40k side...
Edit: Oh, you want Jacks to be bigger... ... ... opps, reading comprehension fail.

Xas

06-07-2011, 04:05 AM

I hate that Twilight Imperium takes at least 5 people to be really fun. Geez they should release a revamped version (prolly lesser main order-cards) designed for 4 people from scratch!

I hate that Risk is mostly a game of luck due to combat mechanics beeing overly simple.

I have looked at many other TT games but have yet to find one that can even compare with the overall package of GW.

Firstly I think skirmishers are stupid. If I want a fight involving roughly a dozen combatants total I will have it with my Shadowrun group with much more detailed rules/background/roleplay.

Then there is stuff like general aesthetics...
Infinity is something I havent even glanced at the rules cause every model looks like a child's toy.

Warmahordes is just a wierd mix of going out of the way to not look 100% mainstream fantasy but failing hard as that it still looks mainstream but also manages to be ugly a shell. I was very thrilled when a friend told me there is an army of dragons (I like dragons) only to find out they werent dragons but silly furry things with twisted proportions. Oh and warjacks are just steampunk robots who try as hard as possible to look different but fail at anything but looking like a walking ball.

Dystopian wars... steampunk ships... have I meantioned that I do not like steampunk? Ya know beeing non-mainstream somehow because mainstream so hard that "classic sci-fi/fantasy" suddenly is the new black...

Give me one game where I can get 10 modells for 20€ or less, play big battles, have really fleshed out and believable fluff and models with a mature style and I'll be all over it...

chromedog

06-07-2011, 06:17 AM

I don't hate on PP - I don't play the game enough to know enough about it to hate it.
I will hate on majik players though - the local lot give gamers a bad name - I've known garbage heaps that smell better.

If I don't like a company's product or game, I don't play it. Hating it is a waste of my time.

wittdooley

06-07-2011, 06:58 AM

Winner. /thread.

I hate that Axis and Allies 1942 takes so long to play, and that my friends have too short of an attention span to actually sit down and play it. Furthermore, I hate that when we play the Games by Email version, Germany always quits when I'm doing ok against him, and pretty much kills the game because Japan doesn't want to control 2 nations at once. WTF? I'm controlling all 3 Allies, jerks.

I also hate that we're running the novice True20 Adventure right now, and every fight ends almost immediately when we hit/kill the leader. So far, in 2 fights, I've managed to throw an axe at one guy, and didn't even kill him. At least the DM says I can melt down their weapons and armor to improve our own.

I hate that Heart of the Swarm doesn't even have a release date for Blizzard to ignore. Same with Diablo 3. I hate that I'm not playing both games at once this instant.

I hate that I'm gonna be dropping piles of money on video games this year.... Skyrim, Space Marine, Gears 3, Deus Ex, Mass Effect 3, Starfox 3DS, probably Ocarana of Time (making it the 5th time I've bought it, I think). And I'm mega excited for all of them.

I hate how badly our cats poop smells, but I'm glad they get along well enough now that I don't have to keep a litterbox in our room anymore.

I hate that some jackhat broke into my car and stole my inspection sticker.

I hate that I have to get ready for work tomorrow.

That was pretty cathartic, actually. Thanks, OP!

Perfect. Exactly what this thread was designed for.

eldargal

06-07-2011, 08:02 AM

I hate that Mass Effect 3 has been delayed till 2012...

Drew da Destroya

06-07-2011, 08:11 AM

I hate that Mass Effect 3 has been delayed till 2012...

****, me too. At least I have Deus Ex (if it actually comes out) and Gears of War 3 this year. And I'm actually going through and playing Oblivion now that my computer can deal with it.

Bean

06-07-2011, 11:02 AM

I hate that Twilight Imperium takes at least 5 people to be really fun. Geez they should release a revamped version (prolly lesser main order-cards) designed for 4 people from scratch!

Really? I've played this game a lot, and four players works great. Granted, we've fiddled with the rules a fair amount at this point--took out the Nalu, those guys are not fair at all.

I hate that Risk is mostly a game of luck due to combat mechanics beeing overly simple.

Agreed.

TheRise

06-07-2011, 12:02 PM

GW is like the CocaCola of the wargaming world... its the most well known, its the one that is always talked about, either you like it or you hate it, other products are coming into view and they are becoming less popular.

And thats the reason, more people use it. Or the same amount of people use it but the other ranges just don't have the... "Aaaaaaargggghhh! I hate the company I spend loads of money on!". They are more... so what I'll go somehwere else. A bit more laxed.

DarkLink

06-07-2011, 03:40 PM

I love that I though "hey, a remake of the original halo with new graphics and the updated controls would be cool" and hey, guess what just got announced:D

DTReaper

06-07-2011, 04:39 PM

I hate PP for one thing, the khador gap its totally unacceptable. To get it anywhere close to fitting correctly you need a dremal, a clamp or something to bend the metal, a mountain of green stuff, and a litany of curse words.
-DTReaper

Morgan Darkstar

06-07-2011, 05:18 PM

I hate that Mass Effect 3 has been delayed till 2012...

What? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

............. oh well at least it gives me more breathing room to play, Skyrim, Battlefield 3, Call of duty 3 and Space Marine!

DarkLink

06-07-2011, 05:40 PM

gridespider

06-07-2011, 06:33 PM

Once every 5 years. When it did happen, PP provided an apology letter for the raising material costs, and provided charts and sheets showing how the raise in costs affected their raise in materials.

Has GW shown how a decrease in material costs for garbagecast translated into an increase cost for YOU?

Buffo, I like you bro, your alright. :D

Gir

06-07-2011, 09:24 PM

I'm I the only one who sees a sharp resemblance between PP fanboys and Apple fanboys?

BrokenWing

06-07-2011, 10:45 PM

God no.

DarkLink

06-07-2011, 11:29 PM

I'm I the only one who sees a sharp resemblance between PP fanboys and Apple fanboys?

I have a sudden urge to hate PP now.

Wishing

06-08-2011, 07:28 AM

Hmmm... if I were to hate on PP, it would be because, whatever other price-related issues there may be, I get much less modelling joy out of their products, pound for pound, than I do from GW products.

As examples, some of my recent GW purchases were a box of Dark Elf Cold One Knights and a box of Chaos Hounds. Each box cost me 150dkk (abt £17) and had 5 *gorgeous* cavalry models and 10 cool warhounds respectively. I then got to have loads of fun converting the knights into Eldar Exodites and the hounds into Daemon Flesh hounds with minimal parts required.

My next planned PP purchase is an elf character model called Bethayne that comes with an ogre-sized monster companion. Very cool, and they merge together using magnets and stuff. But as far as I can work out (my store doesn't have them in), buying this pair costs about 220dkk (abt £25). Yikes. This is for a single army choice consisting of two models. When I have to choose between buying one special character, or paying much less for a much larger number of really nice models, that have the advantage of being plastic and easy to carry and convert, my money will go towards the plastic. Bethayne and her pet will go on the laterbase, for when I feel rich and really want to play Hordes again.

I know that big GW metal models are expensive too, so it's not saying that GW is cheaper than PP in principle. It's just that the stuff I enjoy and want from PP is expensive metal stuff, and the stuff I want from GW is cheap plastic stuff, so in terms of pure modelling joy, GW stuff wins out price-wise.

MarneusCalgar

06-08-2011, 08:03 AM

I also hate JUSTIN BIEBER:

- His hair sucks, he seems like a chipmunk

- He sings horrible.

- His fans suck.

Going back into wargaming and the thread... Gosh, this seems to have become a GW vs PP thread...

wittdooley

06-08-2011, 08:11 AM

Gotthammer

06-08-2011, 10:46 AM

I hate that Mass Effect 3 has been delayed till 2012...

I also hate JUSTIN BIEBER:

But Mass Effect + Justin Bieber = AWESOME (http://youtu.be/3xYHsyCyDvs) (the prize.... (http://youtu.be/9l9XAcX-hVE))

Drew da Destroya

06-08-2011, 10:53 AM

I blame myself for starting with PP as my example. Doh!

Way to go, Jerk (you get the capital letter because Jerk is clearly your name).

I hate that Wittdooley started a flamewar thread!

I hate that I'm at work right now, and not home playing 3DS or something. Furthermore, I hate that things cost money, which in turn makes me need to have a job.

I hate the line being drawn between GW and PP. Both games seem pretty fun (I've only played one game of Warmachine), have cool model ranges, and interesting backstories. Granted, both sides are holding the chalk, but can't we all just get along?

Deadlift

06-08-2011, 11:11 AM

I absolutely hate any of those facebook games that end in VILLE. My mrs seems to have some obsession with these games and my pay pal account has suffered badly. For games that are supposedly free they sure has hell fricking can't be. I ask why the **** it'd cost £10 to build an imaginary hospital, are you crazy woman. The usual reply is "why did those plastic men cost nearly £30. I then sulk.

BrokenWing

06-08-2011, 11:22 AM

here's your answer: "Because the plastic men are tangible objects that can be held."

Defenestratus

06-08-2011, 11:26 AM

I haven't read this whole thread - but the reason you wont see any PP-hate going on is because you'll be mindlessly accosted by throngs of fanboys who cannot rub two brain cells together to question their unwaivering adherence to the gospel according to Privateer Press.

Its a sickness that I have unable to find a cure for.

According to them, GW eats babies for an appetizer, puppies for a main course, and kittens for a light desert - followed by a virgin's blood nightcap. On the other hand, PP are nothing but choir boys who have nought a greedy bone in their collective body and may or may not have been subjected to sexual molestation at their previous institution of religion - GW.

BrokenWing

06-08-2011, 11:29 AM

Don't forget Warmachine never crashes or gets viruses and 40k is barely functional.

Wait...wrong elitist fan base, sorry. ;)

Actually I have to say, there was a big Warmachine tournament going on right next to our GT on the weekend and we never got any crap from any of them. It was a nice change of pace and I was very pleased. Every time I think about even trying Warmachine though I just have to remind myself that one of the tournament games this weekend ended in 2 minutes and 30 seconds. I do want one of their models to use for a DnD character or a conversion though.

wittdooley

06-08-2011, 11:31 AM

BrokenWing

06-08-2011, 11:35 AM

Clearly you're some sort of paradox. Have you hidden a paradox machine away so that you can continue existing?

I don't much care if someone plays Warmachine or likes Apple, as long as they don't inform me of how "superior" their product is. That said, walking into a gaming store and hearing a guy talking to someone who was just talking about Warhammer Fantasy and pestering them to drop Fantasy and play Warmachine is extremely annoying.

Deadlift

06-08-2011, 01:00 PM

I made the switch to mac purely because my accountant told me I didn't have enough expenses. I have to say after 3 years it's still going strong. Not once have I had a problem with it. It's never crashed once. Bought one for home with a time capsule and apple tv. Then "she" had to have an iPad and we got iPhones. I am sure Mr Jobs has installed a hidden brain wash program in his products. But no complaints from me. Not sure how much porn the time capsule can comfortable hold though.

henrythesecond

06-08-2011, 01:15 PM

Luke Licens

06-08-2011, 01:45 PM

I hate the supply issues that PP is having in my area. I've been waiting for more than a month for my FLGS to get in more P3 paints, and almost as long for them to get in my Cryx models.

I hate that 40k models seem to have the same problem, never the one I want in stock when I want it.

I hate Rebeca Black, and her moronic song. I do find it highly amusing that she wound up famous because her parents basicly bought into a scam that accidently delivered, but only because it was so terrible that the entire internet needed to laugh at her.

I hate that my landlady's mom just moved in with us, bringing 3 more dogs with her. That makes 6 dogs, 2 cats, and 4 people living in a 2 bedroom, 1.5 bathroom house in a bad neighborhood.

I hate that I can only find time or money to go out and play every two weeks, and those two facets only ever seem to align once a month.

But most of all, I hate blueberries. Seriously. Frak blueberries.

Necron2.0

06-08-2011, 02:09 PM

Don't forget Warmachine never crashes or gets viruses and 40k is barely functional.

Hmmm. Not sure if you're referring to a penguin or a fruit. ;)

Wishing

06-08-2011, 02:27 PM

I blame myself for starting with PP as my example. Doh!

Sorry, but its the only other mini game I know enough about to hate on!

Lexington

06-08-2011, 02:45 PM

Wait...wrong elitist fan base, sorry. ;)
Curiosity - anyone know how/why "elitist" became the new gamer standard for dismissive language? It's come up an awful lot lately, and it seems a lot of those who use it don't fully understanding what they're implying. :p

BrokenWing

06-08-2011, 03:17 PM

I know exactly what I am implyng and it's a term that has long been in use in this area, because it used to apply to the Fantasy players.

That said, that post was a joke and should not be taken seriously. There are certainly some around here that play Warmachine and act like complete jerks about it and some on the forums as well, but it's obviously not the entire fan base or a fist fight might have broken out at Die Con this year.

As for apple users, well, I'm dating one, so I can make fun them all I want ;).

Emerald Rose Widow

06-08-2011, 06:52 PM

I hate how at the top of the screen i am seeing an add for "world of tanks" and it shows a tank vs orks and the tank wins. My first though is "you have apparently never seen orks take on mech, sure one vs the tank wont work but get enough of those buggers together and you can kill anything"

Gave me a good giggle

wittdooley

06-08-2011, 07:07 PM

Curiosity - anyone know how/why "elitist" became the new gamer standard for dismissive language? It's come up an awful lot lately, and it seems a lot of those who use it don't fully understanding what they're implying. :p

Oh I'm sorry. I thought the new dismissive term was "fanboy" or "apologist."

Gir

06-08-2011, 07:39 PM

Hmmm. Not sure if you're referring to a penguin or a fruit. ;)

Well it definitely can't be the fruit. :P

mikethefish

06-25-2011, 09:06 PM

Why they insist on coming to primarily 40k/WFB forums and *****ing about the game systems is beyond me*. You don't like it, fine, but you have a Warmahordes section go talk about it there instead of *****ing about what we like in our spot. Especially stupid since I know quite a few of the PP staff themselves collect GW armies.:rolleyes:

Just as an possible explanation, ever since BoLS has started running articles on PP stuff, there have always been GW posters insulting PP's game, designers and players. I don't excuse the PP's players at all for silly behavior, but to be honest... you GW guys started it - at least here *shrug*

Gir

06-26-2011, 01:38 AM

Just as an possible explanation, ever since BoLS has started running articles on PP stuff, there have always been GW posters insulting PP's game, designers and players. I don't excuse the PP's players at all for silly behavior, but to be honest... you GW guys started it - at least here *shrug*

I just hate how PP guys, like Apple and Hybrid owners, seem to have such an undeserved feeling of self-sastisfaction and importence.

mikethefish

06-26-2011, 09:35 AM

Hey man, you must have been reading a tone in my post that wasn't there - probably my fault. There has been bad behavior on both PP and GW camps. Didn't mean to imply that it was anything other than the case. I have no intention of painting PP or even PP gamers as the pinnacle form of tabletop gaming or some other foolishness. It is a fact though, that at no time in the history of PP articles on BoLS, have players of PP games been made to feel welcomed by the rest of the community. To be fair, there's been a lot of anti-GW sentiment on the other side too, I freely admit. Personally I wish both breeds of fanboy would resist the temptation to post digs at each other

Verilance

06-26-2011, 10:32 AM

I Hate that all of the really good "Board Wargames" I played as a teenager are no longer available, and the ones I see in stores have little or no interest for me.

but what I really hate is that I gave ALL of my games away years ago to the University Games Club when my ex-wife and I separated so I can never play them again.

Deadlift

06-26-2011, 10:40 AM

That said, that post was a joke and should not be taken seriously. There are certainly some around here that play Warmachine and act like complete jerks about it and some on the forums as well, but it's obviously not the entire fan base or a fist fight might have broken out at Die con.

Die con, that made me laugh alot.

I think as the weeks go on and GW seem to be making more lemming type decisions, it's getting very easy to love to hate them.

Finecast problems
Price rise
Subscription changes
SOB WD Codex
Shipping policy's

I'm not saying I hate GW, but I can see why their getting a fair amount of flack.

Gir

06-26-2011, 05:49 PM

mikethefish

06-26-2011, 07:24 PM

Sorry bro, I wasn't having a go at you directly, but I can see how it might seem like that. It was a more general statement towards the harcore of PP fanboys.

Ah, gotcha - it did appear to be some kind of thinly-veiled snark response since it came right after my own post, but happy to see that it wasn't!

I guess it's just difficult for me to see one "faction" hating on the other, and seemingly ignoring the bad behavior that happens with their own community base. Both GW and PP players do this pretty much all the time, it seems. Vastly irritating.

SMC

06-26-2011, 09:15 PM

I hate how people seem to think that just because they're called war-games their respective games are at war.

Maelstorm

06-30-2011, 09:42 AM

I'm starting to gain some "hate" for PP. Some of the things I "hate" about them......

-When you Warcaster dies, game over : Seriously??? Can you imagine Space Marines quitting if their Captain fall in battle? No, that would just make them angrier!!! Yet, in Warmachine if you leader falls, you quit the battle. Warmachine Troops are pansies.

Welcome to my world. Playing Necrons makes this an easily acceptable rule. Just call it Phase-Out. If Space Marines "Phased-Out" after taking 75% casualties to their "Basic Troops" the Imperial Nerdome would implode... :D

For Warmachine: "Caster Kill" scenarios are only one of several available - not the only scenario available.

Space Marines are pansies - they die once and won't be back... :p

DarkLink

06-30-2011, 09:50 AM

I like the caster kill win condition, because first off it's not that easy to do usually, and secondly it means that you always have a chance to pull off the win if you can just figure out a clever way to get to their caster, no matter how beat up your army is. It also means that if you make a mistake, you lose. Makes the stakes higher.

Necron2.0

06-30-2011, 12:54 PM

Kovnik Obama

07-04-2011, 03:38 PM

I just hate how PP guys, like Apple and Hybrid owners, seem to have such an undeserved feeling of self-sastisfaction and importence.

But clearly, this IS the future.

Oh and I hate how GW fanboys seem to always stoke the fire of hatred and yet dismiss their own involvement and responsabilities toward the ''GW-hatred''.

I also hate how dumbasses think because one game involves more models than another, then they cannot be compared and noted on their respective strenght and weaknesses.

Oh and I frakking hate fat people. Seriously. Fat geeks are even worse. I swear being fat is a mental disease...

Morgan Darkstar

07-04-2011, 04:04 PM

But clearly, this IS the future.

Oh and I hate how GW fanboys seem to always stoke the fire of hatred and yet dismiss their own involvement and responsabilities toward the ''GW-hatred''.

I also hate how dumbasses think because one game involves more models than another, then they cannot be compared and noted on their respective strenght and weaknesses.

Oh and I frakking hate fat people. Seriously. Fat geeks are even worse. I swear being fat is a mental disease...

You Hate to much, you should go and see a therapist about that "said while eating pie"

mmmmnnnmm pie!

Kovnik Obama

07-04-2011, 04:56 PM

I don't know that much about the Iron Kingdom, I have tried to google a bit today but about all I got was that the red guys are a bit Russian, the White ones are holy types and trollbloods look cool. So I would say fluff wise what I have been able to find, it's weak compared to both of GWs worlds. I am not a fluff fan boy like some but what gamesworkshop do very very well is provide a very rich background to their universes that I don't see any other company able to rival (yet). I inhale the black libary books especially the HH ones. Do any of the other wargaming companies offer such a rich background of material. I may risk a kicking here but I would say warhammer 40k offers richer background material than either tolkein, star wars or herberts dune universe.

So you wanted to inquire about the fluff on a setting, for which you made a google search, and then you compare that to the fluff found in official litterature? And you're suprized the first doesn't compare to the second?!?!? I mean... that's REALLY frakking stupid.

Try the Character guides and World Books. Then come back and do the comparison. While in quantity it cannot compare (normal, the IK doesn't have over 20 years of developpement) it certainly does in terms of quality.

wittdooley

07-04-2011, 05:14 PM

So you wanted to inquire about the fluff on a setting, for which you made a google search, and then you compare that to the fluff found in official litterature? And you're suprized the first doesn't compare to the second?!?!? I mean... that's REALLY frakking stupid.

Try the Character guides and World Books. Then come back and do the comparison. While in quantity it cannot compare (normal, the IK doesn't have over 20 years of developpement) it certainly does in terms of quality.

Simply put, I disagree. There isn't even enough there to compare the two.

Kovnik Obama

07-04-2011, 05:27 PM

I really hate the fanaticism of much of the PP fanbase. Why they insist on coming to primarily 40k/WFB forums and *****ing about the game systems is beyond me*. You don't like it, fine, but you have a Warmahordes section go talk about it there instead of *****ing about what we like in our spot. Especially stupid since I know quite a few of the PP staff themselves collect GW armies.

This being said by someone who just started a flame war over in the Warmachine/Hordes sub-forums. Retardead, AMIRITE?!?!

Kovnik Obama

07-04-2011, 05:31 PM

Simply put, I disagree. There isn't even enough there to compare the two.

Ok. 400 large cover pages of IK fluff, plus what, 12+ expansions of between 30 to 60 pages of warmachine fluff isn't enough for you to compare. You are just really REALLY bad at comparing stuff, I guess.

wittdooley

07-04-2011, 06:31 PM

Ok. 400 large cover pages of IK fluff, plus what, 12+ expansions of between 30 to 60 pages of warmachine fluff isn't enough for you to compare. You are just really REALLY bad at comparing stuff, I guess.

Are you serious?

They didn't even put that much new fluff in b/w the MkI and MkII books. They have a single, long out of print, RPG book.

GW has:

The entirety of the Black Library
The entirety of Imperial Armour
The entirety of its 25-year history.

The comparison is silly. Just like how you insist on comparing PP and GW in every other aspect.

Kovnik Obama

07-04-2011, 06:53 PM

Are you serious?

Relatively. I mean, I ain't as serious as when I discuss the respective values of Husserl's phenomenology in comparison to Heidegger's, or when I discuss weither we can accurately categorize Aristotle as an empiricist and Plato as a idealist without *******izing both metaphysical corpus. In the end, we are talking about wargames. But relatively to that particular topic, yes, I'm serious,

They didn't even put that much new fluff in b/w the MkI and MkII books. They have a single, long out of print, RPG book.

A few things are incomprensible/wrong with that statement.

''In b/w MkI and MkII'' lasted 12-16 months. Each FoW books that came out advanced the fluff, either equally or more (in terms of pages) than the previous anthology format (with 2 exceptions, IIRC, Apotheosis and Legends, which had massive stories in them)

EVERY single anthology format have more ''story sections'', which relates directly to the settings meta-story than EVERY single codex.

And I have, on my computer, 7 IK RPG books.

GW has:

The entirety of the Black Library Of which only half is readable. Sometimes WM fluff seems a bit lightheaded, but it's never EVER sunk to the level of suckyness of some of the BL novels I have read.

The entirety of Imperial Armour Then I guess I can count the PP fan-fiction too? In any case, it would advantage you, since the best 40K fluff I have ever red (beside's Abnett) was fan-fic.

The entirety of its 25-year history.Doesn't amount to so much when all you do is copy-pasta the fluff from one codex edition to another.

The comparison is silly. Why? Because you can't bother to look up the fluff??? Because you have too much of a hard time trying to relate one setting to another because of material disparity??? Like I said before, that YOU are unable to compare them only speaks about your comparative skills.

Just like how you insist on comparing PP and GW in every other aspect. I find much more silly your obstination toward refusing the possibility of a comparison.

Lockark

07-04-2011, 07:49 PM

How is Imperial Armour "Fan Fiction"....

Kovnik Obama

07-04-2011, 08:01 PM

How is Imperial Armour "Fan Fiction"....

Okay, bad comparison... Didn't know if it counted as ''official fluff''...
include No Quarter fiction in it, then.

wittdooley

07-04-2011, 08:05 PM

Relatively. I mean, I ain't as serious as when I discuss the respective values of Husserl's phenomenology in comparison to Heidegger's, or when I discuss weither we can accurately categorize Aristotle as an empiricist and Plato as a idealist without *******izing both metaphysical corpus. In the end, we are talking about wargames. But relatively to that particular topic, yes, I'm serious,

Yes, yes. You think you're smart. We get it. Moving on.

A few things are incomprensible/wrong with that statement.

''In b/w MkI and MkII'' lasted 12-16 months. Each FoW books that came out advanced the fluff, either equally or more (in terms of pages) than the previous anthology format (with 2 exceptions, IIRC, Apotheosis and Legends, which had massive stories in them)

EVERY single anthology format have more ''story sections'', which relates directly to the settings meta-story than EVERY single codex.

And I have, on my computer, 7 IK RPG books.

I should have been more clear: From MkI Pirates book to MkII Mercs book, they added very little; they merely compiled.

Also, I realize that there is the IK monster book, and the witchfire trilogy, but there is only one sourcebook. I agree that it is very good. Presently GW has 5 RPGs, each with their own sourcebook and subsequent books furthering that source (WHFRP, Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Black Crusade).

Of which only half is readable. Sometimes WM fluff seems a bit lightheaded, but it's never EVER sunk to the level of suckyness of some of the BL novels I have read.

And if we're saying that only "half are readable" --which I dispute-- that's still far more than Privateer has. I'd love for PP to release a novel. Hell, there are Fantasy Flight games that are getting novels before the Iron Kingdoms is.

As for the suckiness...I'm curious to which you're referring. Most agree that the Blood Ravens stuff (and anything by C.S. Goto for that matter) is dreadful, but beyond that, most of it is personally passable popcorn reading material. Then you have the Horus Heresy series, of which the last FIVE have been New York Time's bestsellers.

Then I guess I can count the PP fan-fiction too? In any case, it would advantage you, since the best 40K fluff I have ever red (beside's Abnett) was fan-fic.

Really. You're comparing IA to Fan-Fic? Have you ever read any of the IA books? Starting at #4, they're all pretty fantastic. Further, you obviously haven't read a ton of the Black Library stuff if you're stating that, beyond Abnett, the best you've read is fan-fiction. William King, Graham McNeill, Aaron Dembski-Bowden, CL Werner, Nathan Long, and Darius Hinks would beg to differ.

And to be clear, these guys aren't trying to compete with Dave Eggers, Michael Chabon, or Cormac McCarthy. They are, however, winning Gemmels for genre writing.

Doesn't amount to so much when all you do is copy-pasta the fluff from one codex edition to another.

They don't do this. I can take comparison shots if you'd like. There are some roots from previous codecies, but everything is either expanded upon or added to.

Why? Because you can't bother to look up the fluff??? Because you have too much of a hard time trying to relate one setting to another because of material disparity??? Like I said before, that YOU are unable to compare them only speaks about your comparative skills.

I find much more silly your obstination toward refusing the possibility of a comparison.

You obviously haven't looked up any of it. Or read any of it. The amount of fluff total in all of the Privateer books is probably less than is in the WHFB Rulebook. I can check, if you really want, but I'd take that wager.

We can compare all you want. The background for both the 40k and WHFB universes is so far richer than Privateer's.

relasine

07-04-2011, 08:08 PM

Honestly, if you really have issues with Privateer Press, post on their boards. Simon Berman (Community Manager), Jen Ikuta (Volunteer Corps Coordinator), and Doug Seacat (Head Writer) are constantly posting, answering questions, and discussing there. Occasionally, Jason Soles (Development Head for Warmachine/Hordes), Dave Carl (Developer, Playtest Coordinator), and even Head Chef, Matt Wilson will respond to concerns.

wittdooley

07-04-2011, 08:33 PM

Don't have concerns, chief. I like privateer. I just wish they had more fluff.

Kovnik Obama

07-05-2011, 12:52 AM

Yes, yes. You think you're smart. We get it. Moving on.

Sorry if I came across as a jerk. Just wanted to point out how asking if someone is serious, in relation to a toy soldier's game, doesn't really mean anything. If we were serious, we wouldn't be talking about toy soldiers and what their stories are about.

I should have been more clear: From MkI Pirates book to MkII Mercs book, they added very little; they merely compiled.

They did compile a lot of previous information, which is good, since that's what a Force of ... should do after a series of anthology. But you're omitting a hell of a lot of new fluff.

///////SPOILERS///////

MkI Pirates, 2007 ; who cares about the Pirates fluff, their PIRATES... they do pirates sh!t and stuff... but about 20-25 pages of fluff (by memory).

Warmachine Legends, 2008 ; Stryker get KOed, Menites take back Sul and pushes into Caspia, Irusk fails the 1st siege against Northguard and looses 40 000 men, is tempted to fall on his sword until the Empress tells him that there is only victory or death by the enemy, attempts a second time, and wins. Severius moves into Laell and singlehandedly takes Leryn from Khadoran control in 2 days, without a fight (hell, if only * action Conversion was that good in the game). Strykers comes about to stop Voyle from killing his king. Oh, and cryx kills stuff, steal the sword of a god, but they fail at snuffing said popsicle god, which is then acquired by Khador. 62 pages of pure MASSIVE FLUFF INTAKE.

FoW Retribution, 2009 ; The Retribution engages Khador on two battlefields, Kaelyssa and Vyros attempt to retrieve popsicle god and fails, Garryth and Rhan are seemingly able to secure a part of occupied Laell in hopes of expanding Ios. 49 pages of fluff

Prime Mk2, Jan 2010 ; An engagement between Stryker, Caine and the High Reclaimer. The story is set in 603, so it doesn't further the meta-story, but it expands on fluff. Most of the book is compilation tho, which is understandable for the source book. 13 pages story, for a total of 24 new pages of fluff (but it's mostly retelling from a different angle.)

FoW Cygnar ; Feb 2010 ; After the loss of Northguard, Cygnar consolidates at Point Bourne. They attack Fort 2, a small stronghold yet to be finished building, a few miles behing enemy lines. The first ''mixed infantry'' outfit fails miserably, and Kara Sloan prooves to everyone that she will (quite) literally destroy an army for her boyfriend. Haley proceeds to beat the crap out of some Cryx. 15 pages of meta-story, total of 31 pages of fluff

FoW Khador ; Mar 2010 ; Khador reacts to the attack on Fort 2 by pushing on Point Bourne, Kommander Strakhov rushes across the cygnaran lines of defense to capture some VIP, Vlad demands audience with Severius, the newly appointed Hierach, to seek the menite's help in destroying the cryxian forces in Laell, gets captured because Vindictus is a tool, takes 3 days of torture and then walk out of there like he owns the place... again, 31 pages of fluff

FoW Protectorate ; Apr 2010 ; Closer look at the battle between Vlad and Vindictus, and the time Vlad spent on the Wrack. The Harbinger is blessed with a vision of a horde of undead (the same ones Vlad wanted to tell them about 3 days earlier), and brings the Executionner and the High Reclaimer with her to defend a menite village. Massive battle ensue, the Harbinger kills one of the Coven gals (supposedly the 1st true and lasting warcaster death of the setting, but hey, it's Cryx...) another 30ish pages (don't have that one on me now)

FoW Cryx ; June 2010 ; Toruk sends Venethrax on the mainland, heralding the start of the ''let's actually kills some dragons'' phase of the cryxian plan. Asphyxious and Denegrah barely escapes being exposed for having tipped Haley on a lich lord's location by having someone drop the location of an athanc (a dragon's physical soul), which is then followed by an expediation to retrieve said athanc. another 30ish pages (never bought that one, only read online).

...

It's getting late here, so I'll keep it to that. That doesn't include Horde, misses Mercs (but i don't think that one had much meta-fluff to it) and Wrath, which is supposed to be bigger fluffwise than Legends. Suffice to say that there's been much advancement in the fluff since 2007.

Lockark

07-05-2011, 12:56 AM

Sorry if I came across as a jerk. Just wanted to point out how asking if someone is serious, in relation to a toy soldier's game, doesn't really mean anything. If we were serious, we wouldn't be talking about toy soldiers and what their stories are about.

They did compile a lot of previous information, which is good, since that's what a Force of ... should do after a series of anthology. But you're omitting a hell of a lot of new fluff.

MkI Pirates, 2007 ; who cares about the Pirates fluff, their PIRATES... they do pirates sh!t and stuff... but about 20-25 pages of fluff (by memory).

Warmachine Legends, 2008 ; Stryker get KOed, Menites take back Sul and pushes into Caspia, Irusk fails the 1st siege against Northguard and looses 40 000 men, is tempted to fall on his sword until the Empress tells him that there is only victory or death by the enemy, attempts a second time, and wins. Severius moves into Laell and singlehandedly takes Leryn from Khadoran control in 2 days, without a fight (hell, if only * action Conversion was that good in the game). Strykers comes about to stop Voyle from killing his king. Oh, and cryx kills stuff, steal the sword of a god, but they fail at snuffing said popsicle god, which is then acquired by Khador. 62 pages of pure MASSIVE FLUFF INTAKE.

FoW Retribution, 2009 ; The Retribution engages Khador on two battlefields, Kaelyssa and Vyros attempt to retrieve popsicle god and fails, Garryth and Rhan are seemingly able to secure a part of occupied Laell in hopes of expanding Ios. 49 pages of fluff

Prime Mk2, Jan 2010 ; An engagement between Stryker, Caine and the High Reclaimer. The story is set in 603, so it doesn't further the meta-story, but it expands on fluff. Most of the book is compilation tho, which is understandable for the source book. 13 pages story, for a total of 24 new pages of fluff (but it's mostly retelling from a different angle.)

FoW Cygnar ; Feb 2010 ; After the loss of Northguard, Cygnar consolidates at Point Bourne. They attack Fort 2, a small stronghold yet to be finished building, a few miles behing enemy lines. The first ''mixed infantry'' outfit fails miserably, and Kara Sloan prooves to everyone that she will (quite) literally destroy an army for her boyfriend. Haley proceeds to beat the crap out of some Cryx. 15 pages of meta-story, total of 31 pages of fluff

FoW Khador ; Mar 2010 ; Khador reacts to the attack on Fort 2 by pushing on Point Bourne, Kommander Strakhov rushes across the cygnaran lines of defense to capture some VIP, Vlad demands audience with Severius, the newly appointed Hierach, to seek the menite's help in destroying the cryxian forces in Laell, gets captured because Vindictus is a tool, takes 3 days of torture and then walk out of there like he owns the place... again, 31 pages of fluff

FoW Protectorate ; Apr 2010 ; Closer look at the battle between Vlad and Vindictus, and the time Vlad spent on the Wrack. The Harbinger is blessed with a vision of a horde of undead (the same ones Vlad wanted to tell them about 3 days earlier), and brings the Executionner and the High Reclaimer with her to defend a menite village. Massive battle ensue, the Harbinger kills one of the Coven gals (supposedly the 1st true and lasting warcaster death of the setting, but hey, it's Cryx...) another 30ish pages (don't have that one on me now)

FoW Cryx ; June 2010 ; Toruk sends Venethrax on the mainland, heralding the start of the ''let's actually kills some dragons'' phase of the cryxian plan. Asphyxious and Denegrah barely escapes being exposed for having tipped Haley on a lich lord's location by having someone drop the location of an athanc (a dragon's physical soul), which is then followed by an expediation to retrieve said athanc. another 30ish pages (never bought that one, only read online).

...

It's getting late here, so I'll keep it to that. That doesn't include Horde, misses Mercs (but i don't think that one had much meta-fluff to it) and Wrath, which is supposed to be bigger fluffwise than Legends. Suffice to say that there's been much advancement in the fluff since 2007.

That's a nice wall of text, but you do not address a simple statement he made.

Their are no novels about the Iron Kingdoms, and PP has not had the decades of fluff and writing behind it that makes the 40k lore so deep and interesting.

Their is only so much Fluff you can fit in the rule books them self. Thier is reasons why lexicanum exists.

These are not unjust criticisms of privateer press believe it or not. In all honesty some people prefer not learning the 25 years of fluff and lore behind 40k, witch is a benafit of following the Ironkingdoms fluff.

Kovnik Obama

07-05-2011, 01:04 AM

That's a nice wall of text but you do not address a simple statement he made. Their are no novels about the Iron Kingdoms, and PP has not had the decades of fluff and writing behind it that makes the 40k lore so deep and interesting.

That ''wall of text'' directly answered the
I should have been more clear: From MkI Pirates book to MkII Mercs book, they added very little; they merely compiled. part of his statement, because it was simply wrong. Since I'm primarily a fluff bug, it was the one that I wanted to answer 1st, and took much more time than I thought. But, hey, I liked the exercice, so...

Like I said, it's 3h00am here, and I will address all other statements when I am rested.

wittdooley

07-05-2011, 07:03 AM

Let me be clear: I like Privateer's fluff a lot. They simply need more of it. I'd buy it and read it if they did.

That being said, it's silly to compare the two because Privateer just doesn't have the breadth. There have been few people on these boards to support and champion both GW. I've tried to be fair in my assessments. There are a lot of things I like in both systems, but I'm not too much of a fan of either to know where their deficiencies lie. I've taken a ton of heat for supporting Finecast, but I still (firmly) believe it is a positive thing for the hobby that has a lot of room for improvment. I believe GW could learn a thing (or six) from Privateer in terms of marketing. With that being said, I realize that GW Marketing is an entirely different beast to handle because of their superior size and status as a public company.

Again, don't take my comments to be a disparagement towards Privateer; they aren't. I merely think that comparing the fluff of the two is unfair to Privateer; there simply isn't enough there yet written about the Iron Kingdoms, despite the amount that lies within the FoW/H books.

I like Privateer Press. I like Games Workshop.

I haven't bought anything from either in about 2 months :D

Deadlift

07-05-2011, 09:59 AM

I haven't bought anything from either in about 2 months :D

Except those finecast models you converted ? Lol

One thing I think GW could learn from over companies in the business I think is the free to download quickstart rules. That's a genius way for a company to get you into their games. I think it shows total confidence in their products and a willingness to give a little before you commit to their game.

However saying that the in store intro games and clubs that GW offer too are very good, but not everyone either has a store close enough or wants to be surrounded by kids :)

wittdooley

07-05-2011, 10:04 AM

Except those finecast models you converted ? Lol

Oh yeah. Forgot about those. Facepalm.

Lockark

07-05-2011, 10:26 AM

That ''wall of text'' directly answered the part of his statement, because it was simply wrong. Since I'm primarily a fluff bug, it was the one that I wanted to answer 1st, and took much more time than I thought. But, hey, I liked the exercice, so...

Like I said, it's 3h00am here, and I will address all other statements when I am rested.

You still ignore the fact of the novels, and brush them off because you read one or two stinkers. You ignore the majority that are good.
=U

My point was despite writing a wall of text, you never addressed that point.

Lexington

07-05-2011, 07:54 PM

Their are no novels about the Iron Kingdoms, and PP has not had the decades of fluff and writing behind it that makes the 40k lore so deep and interesting.
Eh. Having been a fan before there were novels or even a single full decade of writing behind 40K, I think this oversells the worth of supplementary material like novels and IA books. The universe was plenty interesting back when the only available materials were 2nd Edition's rulebooks and Codexes, and I dare say the breadth of possibilities offered by a less-defined universe made way for players to add their own depth, and they often did. There's relics of fan fiction and the like hanging around on my hard drive that are as good or better than almost any of the official material that followed it. Mystery and space for imaginative engagement are as important to a good setting as definition and development, IMO.

This isn't to say there hasn't been great material since then. The IA's are damn good reads, and there's some surprisingly strong entries in the Black Library's fairly lackluster catalogue. Aaron Dembski-Bowden alone has done wonders to improve the overall quality of their output, and the success of his work gives me some real hope for the publishing house's future. At the same time, a lot of the universe has been whittled down to the narrowest and least-interesting elements in the name of "branding," and the work of the modern Studio - Ward especially - is so shocking insipid and flat-out moronic, I'd gladly trade it away for the setting's murkier early days. There is, at the very least, a possibility there that we'd never see the new Grey Knights book published.

This is the long way around saying that I don't think the disparity in published word count in any way makes it impossible to compare the Iron Kingdoms and either of GW's wholly-owned universes. So much of the supplementary material for Fantasy and 40K is unnecessary, you really can toss most of it and still have a fairly complete view of either setting. I like all three of them, and think they've all got faults, and compare them against each other without feeling any kind of cognitive dissonance.

Ello_Thar

07-06-2011, 06:25 PM

Riddle me this:

What does a Lasgun look and sound like, when fired?

Kovnik Obama

07-06-2011, 06:48 PM

Riddle me this:

What does a Lasgun look and sound like, when fired?

With the imaginative efforts GW puts behind their setting, I'd say a M1 Garand?

Really. You're comparing IA to Fan-Fic? Have you ever read any of the IA books?

The Badad Wars and another one. Space marines killing space marines that are betraying space marines. Utter crap. Yes, I have red many MANY fan-fics on Dakkadakka that were much better reading material.

Further, you obviously haven't read a ton of the Black Library stuff if you're stating that, beyond Abnett, the best you've read is fan-fiction. William King, Graham McNeill, Aaron Dembski-Bowden, CL Werner, Nathan Long, and Darius Hinks would beg to differ.

True. I don't need a ton to realize that if I pick a BL book, chances are, it's going to suck. I liked Abnett (but even he isn't has good as is often told... his eisenhorn book entirely written in 1st person is mediocre). Counter did a really good job with the Souldrinkers.

William King is crap. Utter, undiluted crap.

If I ever feel like losing a few hours of my life, I might pick up HH, but then again... Marines. Frakking marines.

Fellend

07-06-2011, 07:15 PM

Riddle me this:

What does a Lasgun look and sound like, when fired?

In a universe that has a billion planets that produce the same gun from likely different materials and slightly different versions adjusted to the climate and conditions of their various battlefields I'd say it sounds very different from gun to gun even if they are all made from the same standard template

Kovnik Obama

07-06-2011, 07:19 PM

The flames are getting a bit low for my taste, so let's stoke away!

PP is complete contradiction of a game. It's fluff and models portrays it as a fluffy character filled army game but in reality plays more like a game of chess where the models don't act anywhere near their fluff despite rules otherwise.

Other then getting into a myriad of examples unit by unit, let’s just say it's silly to think that one of these famous warcasters is going to be at every engagement that ever takes place during this war that defies all sense and logistics...seriously; some factions should have been wiped out by now. Furthermore, the idea that the entire army loses interest in the fight because their Jedi general is gone is absurd. These are two big factors in why the game plays like chess and not like an army based miniatures game or anything like the fluff would have you believe. Hell, I'm going to add a third reason because the hate flows through me - I'm tired of every unit and jack being 'the best damn thing eva!' because really, if it's that good, it usually dies on turn one or two and doesn't feel like the best anything.

This is a pearl. ''why the game plays like chess and not like an army based miniatures game or anything like the fluff would have you believe. '' And in what way is chess not a army based miniature wargame? Do you really REALLY have such a hard time with abstraction?!? I bet you're one of those defenders of TLOS, ''because it's realistic!''.

some factions should have been wiped out by now. Nice. So you know the fluff better than those who write it. Never heard of a war that lasted more than 6 years?

Furthermore, the idea that the entire army loses interest in the fight because their Jedi general is gone is absurd. So you really know next to nothing about the setting, right? Because otherwise you would know the reason why Jacks shut downs when the warcaster dies. Also, if something is able to kill the Jedi next to me, you can be sure as hell that I ain't gonna stay there until i find out what it's gonna do to my stormtrooper buttock.

I'm tired of every unit and jack being 'the best damn thing eva!' because really, if it's that good, it usually dies on turn one or two and doesn't feel like the best anything. Wait, wut?

murrburger

07-06-2011, 08:14 PM

Yeah, well, it's called 'fluff' for a reason.

The idea is not to take things too seriously (IE, how does the City of Executioners sustain itself?) , and just enjoy the game for what it is. It's not supposed to be a world you can fully immerse yourself in, it's just supposed to be a general background/theme on the race/faction being featured.

Also, the 40K books range from excellent (Ciaphis Cain series, Ian Watson's Inquisition Wars*) to utter crap (Blood Angels series, everything C.S. Goto). So, I think they pretty much count as neutral.

I myself enjoy the background of both games, although I tend to gravitate towards 40K more. Just my preference.

*Depending on how much you appreciate 2nd edition, and by extension, Squats.

C.of.N.finity

07-06-2011, 08:19 PM

This is a pearl. ''why the game plays like chess and not like an army based miniatures game or anything like the fluff would have you believe. '' And in what way is chess not a army based miniature wargame? Do you really REALLY have such a hard time with abstraction?!? I bet you're one of those defenders of TLOS, ''because it's realistic!''.

I do like TLoS. You must be one of thsoe people that think armies set around before a battle aggreing which of their military units can shoot over which peices of terrain. Chess is a miniatures game, but it has zero fluff. My point was that PP tries (and does a really good job at) producing fluff for it's models but it's just falls flat on the table; which leaves it much like Chess.

Nice. So you know the fluff better than those who write it. Never heard of a war that lasted more than 6 years?

Never one that consisted of so many prolonged battles from so many aggressors in such a confined space that consumes a mass amount of resources from all sides. The only thing close I can think of is Germany in WW2 when likened to Cygnar and it's battles on numerous fronts and dwindling resources, except Cygnars position is even more complicated what with fighting Trollkin, Undead, Khador, Skorne and PoM all on it's borders or oceans. It's horrible writing, period.

So you really know next to nothing about the setting, right? Because otherwise you would know the reason why Jacks shut downs when the warcaster dies. Also, if something is able to kill the Jedi next to me, you can be sure as hell that I ain't gonna stay there until i find out what it's gonna do to my stormtrooper buttock.

I know that in every game of warmachine I've ever played, my warcaster has died and they're still kicking around in the fluff. I know that these same warcasters, rare as they are, seem to be at every warmachine game I've ever played. I'm one of those people that said, "Hey, maybe Grey Knights shouldn't have a book becuase, ya know, aren't they supposed to be rare? Like, even more rare than normal marines?". It's just poor writing, and leaves it so that whichever warcaster is the first to lose has a "I'll get you next time 'Gadget!" moment.

Really, PP games are just horrible. The rock, paper, scissors mechanic is so broke that you and your opponent can show up with prebuilt lists and the game is already heavily against you. I show up with a stealth heavy force then sitting across from me is nothing but blast weapons = not a fun game for anyone.

Most games end around turn 3, usually consisting of running towards each other as fast as possible to kill the head jedi becuase the entire battle will stall, no one else is capable of leading, there is absolutly no contengency plan if head jedi dude "dies" (again...and again...and again).

And lets not be stupid, the whole front won't fail becuase some warjacks go inert becuase they have to GIVE you free warjacks for people to even take them! You can tell a game has a broke function when they beg you to utilize said function. Even then, people normally take the bare neccesity then stock up on troops. It's not lovingly referenced as 'troopmachine' for no reason. Unfortunatly, no matter how many ground pounders are taken that have awesome training and individual command structures, they collectivly poop their pants and flee if jedi dude dies....agian.

On a personal note, I ****ing hate Victoria Haley. That ***** can do EVERYTHING. She has a great stat line, great amount of focus for her skill set, can cancel spells, can scramble jacks that get too close, can take down infantry (with a spell better than even ashes to ashes) and then combine that with an awesome utility feat and the ever dumb-as-hell temporal barrier and it just goes to show what bad writing truly is. I think she even has a buff too.

BrokenWing

07-06-2011, 08:33 PM

Two things I don't like about Warmachine:

1. Steampunk.

2. Having some random warmachine guy tell me (while I'm having alot of fun playing 40k) "You should sell all your 40k stuff and play a real game."

Buzz off.

Kovnik Obama

07-06-2011, 09:11 PM

I do like TLoS. You must be one of thsoe people that think armies set around before a battle aggreing which of their military units can shoot over which peices of terrain. Chess is a miniatures game, but it has zero fluff. My point was that PP tries (and does a really good job at) producing fluff for it's models but it's just falls flat on the table; which leaves it much like Chess.

It's a wargame. WAR-GAME. IT IMPLIES ABSTRACTION, or else we'd kill each other, plain and simple. And no, I think base2base LOS is the best way to go. TLOS 'because its realistic' is retardo, because it fails to grasp that the models are abstracted warriors that ARE STUCK IN A PARTICULAR POSE. ITS NOT REALISTIC.

Never one that consisted of so many prolonged battles from so many aggressors in such a confined space that consumes a mass amount of resources from all sides. The only thing close I can think of is Germany in WW2 when likened to Cygnar and it's battles on numerous fronts and dwindling resources, except Cygnars position is even more complicated what with fighting Trollkin, Undead, Khador, Skorne and PoM all on it's borders or oceans. It's horrible writing, period.

Confined space? I think the IK are about 2-3 times the size of Europe. So many prolongued battles? Only 2 important sieges in the last 6 years of settings, Northguard and Caspia. Everything else is peripheral. Cygnar is beset on all sides? Incorrect, they currently fight Khador and Cryx, as the hostilities with the PoM are currently on hold. And the trollkins are about as scary to cygnar as a wet baby hare is to a lion. It isn't horrible writing, its your inability to remember the fluff correctly.

I know that in every game of warmachine I've ever played, my warcaster has died and they're still kicking around in the fluff.

Dumbest critic ever.

I know that these same warcasters, rare as they are, seem to be at every warmachine game I've ever played.

2nd dumbest critic ever. I killed Captain America 2018 times at Marvel vs Capcom since the early 2000, why didn't he die earlier in the fluff???

Really, PP games are just horrible. The rock, paper, scissors mechanic is so broke that you and your opponent can show up with prebuilt lists and the game is already heavily against you. I show up with a stealth heavy force then sitting across from me is nothing but blast weapons = not a fun game for anyone.

It is for the Khador player. And now you know why focusing a force on a single shennannigan is a bad idea. But you really had to test it to realize it???

Most games end around turn 3, usually consisting of running towards each other as fast as possible to kill the head jedi becuase the entire battle will stall, no one else is capable of leading, there is absolutly no contengency plan if head jedi dude "dies" (again...and again...and again).

Man you must be a horrible player. Also, ''no one else is capable of leading, there is absolutly no contengency plan if head jedi dude "dies" '' is based on the fluff. No one else than the casters have the capacities to direct a dedicated Jack. THAT WAS IN THE RPG. and now you criticize that PP games don't feel like the fluff? Maybe you should reread the fluff.

On a personal note, I ****ing hate Victoria Haley. That ***** can do EVERYTHING. She has a great stat line, great amount of focus for her skill set, can cancel spells, can scramble jacks that get too close, can take down infantry (with a spell better than even ashes to ashes) and then combine that with an awesome utility feat and the ever dumb-as-hell temporal barrier and it just goes to show what bad writing truly is. I think she even has a buff too.

Sounds like you have a clear case of the butthurt there. Try not suck!ing so bad at the game, I guess?

C.of.N.finity

07-06-2011, 11:19 PM

It's a wargame. WAR-GAME. IT IMPLIES ABSTRACTION, or else we'd kill each other, plain and simple. And no, I think base2base LOS is the best way to go. TLOS 'because its realistic' is retardo, because it fails to grasp that the models are abstracted warriors that ARE STUCK IN A PARTICULAR POSE. ITS NOT REALISTIC.

Your abstract is different from my abstract, don't wet yourself over it. I prefer my way of playing with plastic men than you do.

Confined space? I think the IK are about 2-3 times the size of Europe. So many prolongued battles? Only 2 important sieges in the last 6 years of settings, Northguard and Caspia. Everything else is peripheral. Cygnar is beset on all sides? Incorrect, they currently fight Khador and Cryx, as the hostilities with the PoM are currently on hold. And the trollkins are about as scary to cygnar as a wet baby hare is to a lion. It isn't horrible writing, its your inability to remember the fluff correctly.

Incorrect, they are engaged currently with Skorne on the East, Cryx to the south and the ocean, Khador to the North, Trollkin to the Northwest and as long as I keep fielding Menoth models and my opponent fields Cygnar, then Menoth to the southeast. It's a fact, deal with it. I would think the threat each army posses towards Cygnar may differ depending on which army player your speaking with as I highly doubt a Troll player would assess themselves as a wet baby hare.

2nd dumbest critic ever. I killed Captain America 2018 times at Marvel vs Capcom since the early 2000, why didn't he die earlier in the fluff???

Maybe he should of? I don't know why people write things poorly, I only call them out on it. You have a problem with Captain America, I have a problem with PP and their poor writing.

I mean, I see your point so far as that just becuase something dies on the tabletop doesn't mean it should die in the fluff. Hell, 40k has character models that see repeated use too. However, my point was that I have the OPTION of selecting those 40k character models, they arne't forced upon me in every game like in warmachine which suggests that these incredably rare warcasters are at every single engagement and thus must be fleeing like a childish cartoon character whenever their defeated to have 'survived' so often. It's just poor writing based around the concept of the King in flavorless, fluffless, chess - which leads back to the first point I made earlier.

It is for the Khador player. And now you know why focusing a force on a single shennannigan is a bad idea. But you really had to test it to realize it???

I don't think it helps your argument when you call a gameplay element PP invented a shennannigan. Focusing around a central theme or concept is old hat and shouldn't be looked down upon especially in a game that encourages theme lists. What should be looked down upon is that there are a good deal of instances where Army A is across from Army B and you can already tell how the game is going to end. Every miniatures game can suffer from this to a degree; I played Wood Elves for awhile and had a friend that loved to run Thorek in a dwarves list, for instance. I just shook his hand, said 'good game, wanna play again?'. However, I've run into this so many times in warmachine. Hell, the 'rolling thunder' cygnar list still eats most of my forces if I feel like bringing a slower list to the table. It's just not balanced properly for the mechanics it emphasises.

Man you must be a horrible player. Also, ''no one else is capable of leading, there is absolutly no contengency plan if head jedi dude "dies" '' is based on the fluff. No one else than the casters have the capacities to direct a dedicated Jack. THAT WAS IN THE RPG. and now you criticize that PP games don't feel like the fluff? Maybe you should reread the fluff.

I have no idea what your talking about. If your referencing the turn 3 thing by calling me a horrible player, then sadly, your ignorant of yet another fact about your game. Even the latest article on the new Cryx model suggest that most games end around turn three. I'm not saying all, by any means, but most I've seen and heard of will end ~turn 3 on average.

Heres the qoute from the article I mentioned:
"Make it Incorporeal one turn, use her feat the next, then make it incorporeal again. That’s three turns of near invulnerability in a row, in a game that is frequently over that quickly. Just remember that eSkarre should always bring along one or two Heavies to make the best use of Admonition and Perdition."

Otherwise, I was ciritsizing the fact that you have an entire army of trained men, many of whom or dedicated to taking out warjacks on their own, that also possess their own highly trained command structure pissing themselves and running becuase a head jedi dude dies...again...for the billionth time... Hell, on a good night, I could have the same warcaster die three times in three individual games progressing at the same time. It's just stupid.

Sounds like you have a clear case of the butthurt there. Try not suck!ing so bad at the game, I guess?

This is usually the last line of defense for someone with nothing of value to say. You could have at least exhibited some drive and posted a link to a tactics forum giving advice on how to beat Haley, that would been snide AND crafty. In any case, I hate the caster so your not far off the mark but it does still serve the purpose of presenting a very poorly written character thats existed since the first book.

Kovnik Obama

07-07-2011, 12:08 AM

Incorrect, they are engaged currently with Skorne on the East, Cryx to the south and the ocean, Khador to the North, Trollkin to the Northwest and as long as I keep fielding Menoth models and my opponent fields Cygnar, then Menoth to the southeast. It's a fact, deal with it. I would think the threat each army posses towards Cygnar may differ depending on which army player your speaking with as I highly doubt a Troll player would assess themselves as a wet baby hare. Your ignorance is showing.

Ah. It's actually a case of ''not getting that Fluff =/= Rules. Doug Seacat himself stated that the hostilities with Menoth are currently at n standstill, with each sides only testing each other trough very small skirmishes. His word trumps yours. He also posted a chart of hostility levels between the factions. It was shown that right until FoW ; Cryx (so what, 607-8?), the Legion had not faced Cryx in a single encounter. The number of games played or the possibilities of engagement have no bearing whatsoever on the number of actual engagements of the warcasters and warlocks in the setting. This is what having a ongoing setting means. Think back to Vampire the Mascarade, pre-Gehenna.

Focusing around a central theme or concept is old hat and shouldn't be looked down upon especially in a game that encourages theme lists.

You cannot avoid the fact that WHEN YOU DECIDE TO BUILD A ONE TRICK LIST, and that particular one trick list HAS A VERY OBVIOUS HARD COUNTER, you will get frakked WHEN FACING SAID HARD COUNTER. That is why mixed force is INHERENTLY superior, because it can negate BOTH your one trick list and its hard counter. You are a Menoth player, and I still have to tell you this?

"Make it Incorporeal one turn, use her feat the next, then make it incorporeal again. That’s three turns of near invulnerability in a row, in a game that is frequently over that quickly. Just remember that eSkarre should always bring along one or two Heavies to make the best use of Admonition and Perdition."

Case of different meta? I rarely play less than 5 turns. I'm a Menoth player. I bite on my enemies fists and proceed unto grinding them through attrition.

This is usually the last line of defense for someone with nothing of value to say. You could have at least exhibited some drive and posted a link to a tactics forum giving advice on how to beat Haley, that would been snide AND crafty. In any case, I hate the caster so your not far off the mark but it does still serve the purpose of presenting a very poorly written character thats existed since the first book.

Why help you? From your posts you don't appear to me to be a new player. You appear to me to be someone who failed to learn from his mistakes and developped bitterness toward a game. I don't feel in any way the desire to artifically push you up the learning curve. But I won't either accept that you misrepresent the balance of the game to a crowd that's already ... what's the word... negative?.. about it because you don't get the very basics of confrontational situations. But ...

Hell, the 'rolling thunder' cygnar list still eats most of my forces if I feel like bringing a slower list to the table.

... what? How is eStryker's feat better agaisnt a slow list than a fast one? With the right distance measurement, speed won't change a thing... And... How is it that much better than eKreoss's? Or any of the Tier 1 Caster feats? How does that show that ''It's just not balanced properly for the mechanics it emphasises.''?

Paul

07-07-2011, 12:42 AM

Ah. It's actually a case of ''not getting that Fluff =/= Rules. Doug Seacat himself stated that the hostilities with Menoth are currently at a standstill. His word trumps yours.

See, there's part of my problem with Warmachine. Yes, I know that Fluff != Rules. However, I would LIKE them to, and there's so many options and lists in 40k that I can at least field what I want, and the suspension of disbelief is easier for me to maintain.

Suffice to say, I play both 40k and Warmachine, and have a sizeable Khador force who follows Karchev the Terrible. However, I play 40k more, because as much as it breaks physics and known science, it isn't so egregious as to have to say "our armored units are magic powered, because it's the only way they could possibly work."

Kovnik Obama

07-07-2011, 01:03 AM

Suffice to say, I play both 40k and Warmachine, and have a sizeable Khador force who follows Karchev the Terrible. However, I play 40k more, because as much as it breaks physics and known science, it isn't so egregious as to have to say "our armored units are magic powered, because it's the only way they could possibly work."

Mechanika was one of the 1st theme of the game. You are taking it backwards. It isn't ''we need to use magick to excuse our ridiculous armour'', it's ''what ridiculous armours can we invent that uses magick''. That was a signature point of the IK steampunk feel. That and the almost inexistence of wheels.

Paul

07-07-2011, 01:11 AM

Mechanika was one of the 1st theme of the game. You are taking it backwards. It isn't ''we need to use magick to excuse our ridiculous armour'', it's ''what ridiculous armours can we invent that uses magick''. That was a signature point of the IK steampunk feel. That and the almost inexistence of wheels.

No, I see that logic. The problem is the last sentence.

It's a basic law (the Square Cube law, in fact) that if you put some armor over a given surface area, you can make the same amount of armor much thicker by giving it a small surface area.

SO, if you have magic armor, you can put it on legs, and get 100mm thick armored plates (Armor rating 20) because it's a big beastie.

OR you could put your magic armor thing on a small box on treads/wheels (think the cortex (head of the jack) plus, say, a single Bombard or Deck Gun) and then the same weight of armor and end up with a much smaller, much cheaper thing which is also more mobile and (provided it is 50% less surface area) with probably has 200mm of armor (Armor rating 25?), without an appreciable loss of firepower over, say, a Destroyer.

Walkers have other problems, too.

Long story short: this sort of thing ruins my suspension of disbelief.

Kovnik Obama

07-07-2011, 01:18 AM

Long story short: this sort of thing ruins my suspension of disbelief.

Thats kinda sad, since it's an intentional design, and in all honesty, isn't the worst suspension in the setting or in any wargame setting. But at least you admit to it being a subjective factor, which is cool.

Paul

07-07-2011, 06:56 AM

Thats kinda sad, since it's an intentional design, and in all honesty, isn't the worst suspension in the setting or in any wargame setting. But at least you admit to it being a subjective factor, which is cool.

I agree that it is kind of sad. In all honesty, it comes with the territory; I don't like Star Wars for a similar reason; too much nonsense engineering and physics problems.

But, as we agree it is subjective. And so I am not trying to get anyone to change games or views, it's just my personal reason why I have trouble enjoying it. :)

wittdooley

07-07-2011, 07:41 AM

@ Kovnik: Are you Melissia in disguise? You seem to have the same festering anti-marine angst she does. :) We'll simply have to agree to disagree about the IA Books. Badab is, in my professional opinion, really well written and well thought out. It is what it is, I suppose. I also disagree about Eisenhorn; again, really well written with fantastic character development; 1st person turns some people off, I suppose.

As for PP fluff: Aren't the Cygnarians and the Trollkin in a relatively loose alliance?

Lexington

07-07-2011, 09:03 AM

I also disagree about Eisenhorn; again, really well written with fantastic character development;
Oh my lord, ain't they though? They've got rough edges (really, endings), but to me, they're the epitome of one of 40K's best features - the ability for the universe to plausibly hold all sorts of stories. If only the BL felt the same way.

As for PP fluff: Aren't the Cygnarians and the Trollkin in a relatively loose alliance?
Previously, yes, but it's since been terminated, and rather dramatically at that. Initially, the Trolls were simply defending the lands they had earned for their service to Cygnar, but with aggressive moves on both sides during Evolution and Metamorphosis, it's now a state of all-out hostilities. Suffice to say that, due to some boneheaded moves on King Leto's part, he turned a friend into an enemy - perhaps the only talent he's ever actively displayed.

wittdooley

07-07-2011, 09:12 AM

but with aggressive moves on both sides during Evolution and Metamorphosis, it's now a state of all-out hostilities. .

And there it is. I don't have those two books.

Lexington

07-07-2011, 09:43 AM

IIRC, the original "break" between Cygnar and the Trollkin was actually detailed in an early No Quarter story that hasn't been reprinted. Here's a rough summary:

Madrak Ironhide: "So, hey, Leto, you know how my people have been fighting and dying for your country? Gonna need those lands you promised us. Y'know, to build hospitals and things. Because we're dying. For you."

King Leto: "Yeah, about that...see...well, I'm in a bind here. There's these nobles, you know? They don't want to give up any land."

Madrak: "Well, gosh, that's too bad for them. What with you being King and all."

Leto: "It's a delicate situation. I can't make them mad. That would just be awful! Can't do it."

Madrak: "You are the King of the most powerful nation in the known world. You deposed your brother - a power-mad tyrant who also happens to be the best swordsman in recorded history - but you don't have the stones to stand up to some snippy landowners."

Leto: "It's really hard! They might even use bad words and stuff! I'd cry."

Madrak: "...you are an artificially stupid human being. We're taking those lands." *storms out*

Leto: "Oh no! An incident! Time to go to my room and listen to some Dashboard Confessional. That'll make everything better. Hope this doesn't create another drain on my already-strained military. Oh, well. I'm sure everything will work out for the best. Tra-la-la!"

wittdooley

07-07-2011, 10:03 AM

And this is why they need some novels.

Man, I'm really itching for them.

Lockark

07-07-2011, 10:48 AM

Eh. Having been a fan before there were novels or even a single full decade of writing behind 40K, I think this oversells the worth of supplementary material like novels and IA books.

So your saying novels add nothing?
:rolleyes:

Lexington

07-07-2011, 11:55 AM

So your saying novels add nothing?
No; they're just not necessary for a good setting. Thought the post was pretty clear on that.

Lockark

07-07-2011, 01:04 PM

The point is that Novels help expand the background.

Kovnik Obama

07-07-2011, 01:59 PM

Suffice to say that, due to some boneheaded moves on King Leto's part, he turned a friend into an enemy - perhaps the only talent he's ever actively displayed.

Awwh, man, I like Leto. He is like the penultimate reason why a good guy should never be king. Oh and

Madrak: "You are the King of the most powerful nation in the known world.

He is only a King in name, Cygnar works like a confederation. While his handling of the Trollblood affair was kinda lame, if you compare it to the sh!tstorm that was awaiting him if the eastern nobles were to rally under the pro-Vinter banner, I think almost everyone with a political sense would make the same choices. He more than likely would have lost the entire 4th Army to defection, rather than just a few elements.

Anyway, it's trollbloods. Give them the Schardes Islands.

wittdooley

07-07-2011, 02:37 PM

Awwh, man, I like Leto. He is like the penultimate reason why a good guy should never be king. Oh and

He is only a King in name, Cygnar works like a confederation. While his handling of the Trollblood affair was kinda lame, if you compare it to the sh!tstorm that was awaiting him if the eastern nobles were to rally under the pro-Vinter banner, I think almost everyone with a political sense would make the same choices. He more than likely would have lost the entire 4th Army to defection, rather than just a few elements.

Anyway, it's trollbloods. Give them the Schardes Islands.

Okay, so I'm obviously missing some of the fluff then:

Gunbjorn, the Sluggers, and the other units with Cygnarian weapons are all former Cygnar soldiers, yes? So they've been introduced NOW into the Trollbloods because they've officially defected from Cygnar, right? For some reason, I thought I read that they were still in an uneasy alliance. The Gunnbjorn story in the FoH Trolls book seems to indicate that, I thought.

Maybe I need to read it again.

Kovnik Obama

07-07-2011, 02:49 PM

@ Kovnik: Are you Melissia in disguise? You seem to have the same festering anti-marine angst she does.

Lol. Everytime I get involved in a flame war here, I get accused of being some other poster in disguise. It's cute :o

I don't really hate marines and everything marine related, I just don't like how they seem to be so prevalant in the setting, and how they are constantly portrayed. I see very little depth added to them in most cases.

I am currently VERY tempted to start back 40K, as my buddies have hinted they would like to play a heavily modded Killteam (kinda like 40k Skirmish). If it pans out, I would pick up Marines converted with Tomb Kings, a bit like Thousand Sons without the Rubric...

Kovnik Obama

07-07-2011, 06:05 PM

Gunbjorn, the Sluggers, and the other units with Cygnarian weapons are all former Cygnar soldiers, yes?

Gunbjorn is a former cygnaran soldier/artillery platform. The sluggers, as well as all the ''modern weapons'' Trollkins are, to my knowledge, beneficiaries of Leto's military support. Gunnbjorn probably still has a few links to the cygnaran military, since I think he is portrayed as a good guy, but the rest of the trollbloods are vindicative enough that they could kill cygnarans without remorse. Especially 4th Army.

SMC

07-07-2011, 06:47 PM

Lol. Everytime I get involved in a flame war here, I get accused of being some other poster in disguise. It's cute :o

I don't really hate marines and everything marine related, I just don't like how they seem to be so prevalant in the setting, and how they are constantly portrayed. I see very little depth added to them in most cases.

I am currently VERY tempted to start back 40K, as my buddies have hinted they would like to play a heavily modded Killteam (kinda like 40k Skirmish). If it pans out, I would pick up Marines converted with Tomb Kings, a bit like Thousand Sons without the Rubric...

They're prevalent in the setting because they're basically the main characters of 40k. I've never understand the problem people have in understanding this. It seems to boil down to, "I don't like Space Marines." To which I say, I don't like Frodo Baggins. That doesn't mean I hate the Lord of the Rings trilogy. When he sails away with the elves at the end I don't roll my eyes and say, "man Frodo's so OP." You don't see depth in Space Marines because, wait for it, you don't like Space Marines. You don't want to see depth.

As for wanting to start a 40K skirmish campaign, have you looked into Killzone? http://galaxyinflames.blogspot.com/2011/02/final-killzone-rules-update-for.html

Kovnik Obama

07-07-2011, 07:11 PM

They're prevalent in the setting because they're basically the main characters of 40k. I've never understand the problem people have in understanding this. It seems to boil down to, "I don't like Space Marines." To which I say, I don't like Frodo Baggins. That doesn't mean I hate the Lord of the Rings trilogy. When he sails away with the elves at the end I don't roll my eyes and say, "man Frodo's so OP." You don't see depth in Space Marines because, wait for it, you don't like Space Marines. You don't want to see depth.

I see what you mean, but that's not really my frustration. If they are the main characters, then I wish they would be more developped in individual ways that make me relate to them. But they are superhumans, cold, ultra-religious types, which i feel would be better left as obscure, distant enemies you only see when you're already dying. Now, there EVERYWHERE. You can't throw a brick in an alley in 40k without hitting 3 power armours.

Anyway. If you think that I don't like marines... well... I wouldn't consider starting a Marine army if I didn,t like them. It's just that I will fluff them out myself, and not let the Studio basterdize what I think could be a very neat concept...

And thanks for the link, I'll take a look and suggest it to my friends!