Defiler or Vindicator

[CouchViking]

I am building a Khorne Zerker army for my new project and I was wondering, what heavy support option would compliment them best? A defiler with its long reaching battle cannon, base demonic possession, and multiple weapon configurations allowing for up to six attacks on the charge (pretty Khorny huh?). With out doubt it will draw incoming fire like none other giving my assault squads much needed time to get into assault. Taken in pairs and placed in cover behind my lines of berzerkers, their low ballistics skill and relatively moderate armor value are enhanced by redundancy of two battle cannons and survivability from cover saves. In an army where points are precious currency and lack of anti-tank sorely lacking, the simple thought of three-hundred points base firing at a squad of paladins or thunder hammer, storm shield terminators only to see it drift off or watch them save is not a pleasant thought. In a time of teleporting dreadknights, melta and powerfists galore, and razor spam; the size and speed make the defiler more like a risk that will either pay dividends or fail horribly (although I guess that applies for any unit in the game). A vindicator seems an almost perfect fit.
Armed with a high strength and low armor penetration value cannon and at a reasonable points cost, the vindicator comes in swinging for the win. Wait a second, a twenty-four inch range? Not to mention the vindicator needs to be placed out of sight so that it can work, meaning my assault squad's rhinos are drawing fire. If I do place my vindicators in the open demonic possession seems almost a must have upping the unit's survivability and still allowing them to fire but hiking up the price to that of the defiler. Then there is the phsycological factor that the demolisher cannon provides and you can't put a price on that, potentially using the vindicator to herd your opponent to the slaughter (not saying it will happen every time but here's to hoping:p).
I know I am comparing apples to oranges here but some feedback would be great as I have never used a defiler or vindi before.

[Hive Mind]

Personally I favour Defilers with two extra DDCW's in my Khornate army but that's largely because I favour the 'run at them and chop them up' approach and I hold 'fluffy' uber alles.

[DarkLink]

Unfortunately, while both Defilers and Vindicators are decent, they aren't Obliterators.


Then there is the phsycological factor that the demolisher cannon provides and you can't put a price on that

Actually, you can put a price on it. And it's not that great of one.

[mstingray]

I use both in my iron warriors army, from the reactions of my opponent he hates the defiler more because of it's close combat ability, although against anything with a powerfist it's likely to die. The vindicator is useful although against anything with a 4+ invulnerable save or better it doesn't do much. Personally I prefer the defiler for the long range of the battlecannon but remember against dreadnoughts or monstrous creatures you're committing it to death.

[Bean]

Unfortunately, while both Defilers and Vindicators are decent, they aren't Obliterators.



Actually, you can put a price on it. And it's not that great of one.


Exactly.

Of the two, Defiler over Vindicator. If you want a good unit instead, play Obliterators.

[Demonus]

meh Oblits are ok, but I prefer defilers. Oblits suck in CC, and can be 1 shotted by stuff as easily as Defilers can. Defilers look 10x cooler, and wreck tanks like no tomorrow.

[Bean]

meh Oblits are ok, but I prefer defilers. Oblits suck in CC, and can be 1 shotted by stuff as easily as Defilers can. Defilers look 10x cooler, and wreck tanks like no tomorrow.

Yeah, they do--if you can catch those tanks while they still matter (which is unlikely against an opponent who's paying attention. Personally, though, I don't like the look of defilers or obliterators.

[Denzark]

Oblits are a one trick pony. It is a good trick to be sure. But Oblits will die to enough small arms fire, Defilers only to serious efforts at shooting. A Tac squad equivalent (subsitute your army's troops choice here) will charge and lock Oblits probably happy that sufficient will die by PF whilst the ablative wound meat shield keeps the Sgt/whatever alive. They would have to have real balls to to charge a defiler.

The only thing defilers need fear in hth really is monstrous creatures, Dreads or something hitting at high S with better initiative.

Twin DCCW defilers are definitely more fluffy for your khorne army. Oblit synergy is best in the back line with your lash Prince (boring and easily countered and tricksy slaanesh not khorne) or teleporting in to TL melta stuff up close - a suicide squad.

Defiler>Oblits>Vindicator.

[DarkLink]

Well, the Vindicator is a massive one trick pony, and not a particularly good one at that. Defilers are much more flexible, but they have their own weaknesses. Obliterators, on the other hand, are relatively cheap and pretty durable, and literally have a gun for every situation. Obliterators are good exactly because they're not a one trick pony. Yes, they're not the most durable things in the game. But they're just about the most flexible long range firepower for their cost as well.

Chaos Marines just don't have a whole lot to work with, really.

[BrokenWing]

Dark Link makes an interesting point about Vindicators. I took two to the GT in my Space Wolf list and I have to say, for the most part they spent alot of time getting shot and exploding. That said, they were only 125 points and sucked in alot of shooting that could have gone to my more important units. One also went on a two turn high speed chase with a bike/storm shield Captain and won me the game by killing him (the mission objective was to kill the other HQ choice) with one shot, where the guy finally failed his invulnerable save.

[mstingray]

That's the thing about vindicators when they work they work well, I had mine kill four wolf guard terminators and a rune priest in a single turn. Although some battles they would do next to nothing.

[DarkLink]

That's the thing. As scary as some noobz think they are, Vindicators in practice aren't particularly reliable. They're not bad, there are simply other things to spend points on that are more worth it, typically.

[BrokenWing]

Am considering keeping my list as a standard tournament list. Unfortunately the price of 2 Vindicators isn't enough to buy two Predators with Lascannons.

[Archon]

A Vindicator has still the capability of killing things right out. On a turnament a couple of SW-wulf-cavallerie killed my three terminators, my DP an the rest of the berzerker-squad only to end up bund up in the middle - where my vinid had a clean field of fire ... the only one left with a stormshild rolled a 2 so the four giant wulf riders vanished.

A defiler can´t do that, because of the "low" strenght of his main gun.

The other side of the vindicator could see on the side of my opponent in the same game. He deployed two of this tanks with a few inches left between them. I drived a rhino with smoke in his fire arc - one trailed far off, the second was saved by cover. Next turn my iniltrating choosen rolled over the flank and popped the first vindi. The second was shoot by my autocannon-havocs and was granted a pause of firing. The following turn it was wrecked too be the choosen.

The vindicator ist still a (fear) factor. Termies don´t like it an instakill is given up to T5. On the downside it´s side armour ist very vulnerable.

The defiler has rarley a cover save because of his bulk. The battlecannon ist still a battlecannon but with enough cover it´ll remove only a few MEQ even with a "hit". His best abiltiy is close combat againt vehicles or small units. I like it with autocannon cause its good against annoying speeder and the like. The surviviabilty is good for armour 12 because of the demon-engine, but it´still armour 12 and could by averagely killed with S8 weapons, wich came en masse in modern SM-Variants as SW or GK.

If i would run a khornate oder WE force, i will go for both of this warmachines, cause khorne loves warmachines. Havocs with long range fire still fell not right in a cc-oriented force and oblits ? From my view of thing oblits are okay fluffwise if you refer to the current codex but in genral the feel not right too, but i would still paint a couple of them (three) in red ... for turnament play for example.

[CouchViking]

Well, sounds like there is more love for the defiler going around. Archon your absolutly right about the lower strength of the defiler's battle cannon meaning no instant killing hq's and other pain in the rear units. Kudos for bringing up the autocannon, that right there put a big feather in the defiler's cap by giving it the ability to multi task. Giving the defiler diferent weapon load outs and giving it multiple rolls really filling in the gaps.

[Demonus]

I dunno about 75pts for something that is 1 shotted by a melta gun being "cheap". Hehe. All three have their uses of course. Remember, while that Vindicator took out 4 TWC with a good roll and the opponent not having cover, it would be defenseless if even 1 survived and charged it. The defiler laughs at most Str 5 shots, even rending ones in cc.

Id rank them

Defilerw/ Reaper +1 CCW 1
2 Oblits 1a
Possessed Vindicator 2

Try them all, play whichever is the most fun :)

[Da Gargoyle]

I like defilers and vindicators. My unit of storm guardians will do evil things to them both, if they get in assault range. My guardians with two fusion guns & accompanied by a warlock with enhance are actually more deadly to vehicles than to other troops units. That warlock's witch blade has a S9 profile against vehicles which don't get armour saves like troops.

[incenerate101]

The defilers ability to shoot the cannon on the move is a big plus in my book. When something is within assault range of your defiler you can simply move away hit them with the cannon and the autocannon then assault them if needed. Its survivability is much higher then either the Oblits or the Vindicator.

[Pendragon38]

I have to admit that the vindi work well as a pair, with bikes to help them survie a little longer by covering there flanks same can be said about rinos