New convert to the House of Draigo and fun new GK tactic

[plawolf]

Up till now, I have never really even thought about taking Draigo in sub 2k games and just automatically classed him as unsuitable under that point limit because of how much he costs, but having had a thought about it, I now have had a bit of a change of heart.

If you are taking Draigo, you are very likely to also be taking Paladins, and I normally take 10.

With such an army, the Paladins are going to be key obviously, and here is the real value of Draigo comes in. Normally with only two troop units, you would want to combat squad the Paladins to give yourself a little more flexibility, but instead of splitting the psycannons evenly between the two squads, I would place all four in one squad, all the hammers and swords would go to the other combat squad.

Draigo would go with the psycannon combat squad while the other one either follows behind to gain a cover save, or heads off towards a different target. This goes against conventional wisdom, but I think it has distinct and significant advantages compared to lumping Draigo with the CC combat squad. The main reason for doing this is wound allocation.

Even with 2 wounds each, 4 psycannons in a 5 man squad is risky as it does not take a lot for you to start loosing those precious psycannons. But with different weapons and master crafting, the biggest shooting threat to your Paladins are going to come from plasma, lascannons, missile launchers and meltas etc that either ignore armour or can cause ID. Draigo's role is to take those Paladin killers on his storm shield.

With everything but devastators, you should be able to place the single las/plas/melta shot on Draigo from any squad shooting at the Paladins. With devastators/long fangs, they typically carry missile launchers, so you should normally get a save from their krak missiles. With a 6 men unit, you could potentially also even allocate two or more plasma rounds to Draigo if the enemy rapid fired with a full 10 men tac squad or large IG blob squad.

If Draigo takes only two lascannon or melta shots all game, he has more than paid for the price difference between himself and a regular GM, and he is almost certain to take a lot more than 2 las/melta shots.

I realise you can kinda do the same thing with a GM, however, with only an Iron halo, the GM has worse odds of making his Inv save, and critically, does not have EW, so can get instagibbed from a single failed lascannon/melta shot, so its a massive risk you are taking.

What more, Draigo is such a CC powerhouse, that he can happily detach from the Paladins and go take down an entire enemy unit by himself leaving both Paladin squads free to engage other targets.

This is particularly fun when you do it against the enemy deathstar unit like TH/SS termies, as the enemy first gets a nasty surprise when they find their CC deathstar tied down by Draigo alone, instead of Draigo and 4 psycannon trotting Paladins, and then realize that with his NFS, Draigo has a 2+ in CC, and cannot be instagibbed by the TH so they are going to be at it for a long time if the termies are lucky. If they are not, and Draigo wins combat and they run, at I5, there is a fair chance Draigo will wipe them out!

While this is happening, your other CC Paladin squad will have almost free reign as few competitive lists have more than 1 deathstar CC unit at 1.5k, and with Draigo tying that unit down, both your Paladin squads suddenly become top dog.

This tactic also scales up quite well. At 2k+, I like to also add a Libby to the Draigo squad. With shrouding and Draigo, they are almost impossible to kill off with shooting, and can easily soak up an army's worth of shooting with few losses for a turn or two at least.

I also tend to take a LR (any variant) with warp stabilization field for the other Paladin squad. Team Draigo would get into a decent shooting position while the LR zips up a flank towards a big juicy unit as far away from team Draigo as practical.

This often causes the enemy to re-position his CC deathstar against either Draigo or the LC full of CC Paladins or both if he has two death stars.

If the enemy positions his death star against the LR Paladins, or even deploys one against each, I would use the summoning on the LR. Suddenly his CC deathstar is horribly out of position with nothing to engage. I would then detach the Libby, or Libby and Draigo depending of what I was facing, from the shooty Paladin squad, attach them to the CC Paladin squad during the movement phase, and assault the target with 5 CC Paladins, Draigo and a Libby with nades to powers to buff them all. very few things can survive against that, especially if the top enemy CC unit is on the other side of the board.

If the opponent deploys his CC deathstar against Darigo, the LR and CC Paladins would just go into a tear up whatever they were targeting and roll up the enemy flank from the opposite flank.

Draigo would detach and tie down the enemy deathstar if they tied to engage the shooty Paladins as described earlier, so the psycannons should get plenty of use no matter what.

This is a fairly simply tactic, but I feel it massively boosts the overall effectiveness of Paladins to the point where they are well worth taking, and certainly superior enough against a GM with Paladins to justify the extra costs.

If you want to take Paladins, Draigo is actually better at 1.5k, since then you do not have to compromise your list as much to shoehorn in troop choices to make the list legal, and so can take more Paladins and/or other goodies despite the higher cost of Draigo.

Hope my fellow GK players find this interesting and useful, any feedback would be most appreciative if you also decide to give this a try out.

[DarkLink]

I've been playing with 10 Terminators backed by a Librarian, and they just walk through most opponent's armies. No need to combat squad or anything fancy, just march forward and shoot and assault anything that gets in your way.

Driago and 10 Paladins can be used exactly the same way, and are even tougher to deal with. I've found that most armies, even IG, have trouble killing said Terminators when backed up by the Librarian, Psyrifle Dreads and lots of psycannons, so Paladins would almost certainly be even tougher to deal with. Just get some cheap scoring units to fill the rest of your points, and your opponent will likely be so busy dealing with the Paladins he won't be able to do anything else.

Playtesting Paladins vs Terminators is my next step forward. I've had great success with 10 Terminators, now I want to see how a similar priced unit of Paladins performs.

[Foreigner]

TLDR.


Of note, Draigo does not have a nemesis force sword.

He therefore has the 3++ Storm Shield save in combat, not a 2+.

[plawolf]

I find it hard to believe your 10 termies and Libby marching up the middle will do well when a 10 men enemy TH/SS termie squad piles into them.

I also suspect your 'march down the middle' battle plan will loose effectiveness rather rapidly once people get more familiar with GKs.

GK is a very balanced codex, and GKTs or Paladins are not anywhere close to being OPed enough to expect to be able to dominate games with a strategy as simply as 'march down the middle'.

As soon as other players start catch on that GKs are down to using harsh language beyond 24" after they loose their dreads, you can expect better target prioritization and your life to get a lot harder after you start loosing your dreads earlier in the game on a regular basis and the enemy can then take down your termies at their leisure.

[plawolf]

TLDR.


Of note, Draigo does not have a nemesis force sword.

He therefore has the 3++ Storm Shield save in combat, not a 2+.

Interesting, it seems you are right. Oppst, guess I should have been more thorough when I was reading the rules. Only just realized it only said force sword instead of nemesis force sword in the titan greatsword rules. :o

[DarkLink]

I find it hard to believe your 10 termies and Libby marching up the middle will do well when a 10 men enemy TH/SS termie squad piles into them.

I also suspect your 'march down the middle' battle plan will loose effectiveness rather rapidly once people get more familiar with GKs.

GK is a very balanced codex, and GKTs or Paladins are not anywhere close to being OPed enough to expect to be able to dominate games with a strategy as simply as 'march down the middle'.


I should probably clarify that, while I am technically just walking up the middle, there's an art to actually pulling it off. It takes a lot of skill to play it. And if I ever let 10 THSS Terminators pull off the charge on me, I deserve to lose.




As soon as other players start catch on that GKs are down to using harsh language beyond 24" after they loose their dreads, you can expect better target prioritization and your life to get a lot harder after you start loosing your dreads earlier in the game on a regular basis and the enemy can then take down your termies at their leisure.

That's why I take lots of psyrifle dreads, and why holding the center of the board is so important. I only need the dreads for the first couple turns, then the rest of my army with its 'mere' 24" range can threaten anything on the board.

Incidentally, one of the reasons the Terminators are much more survivable than one might think at first glance is because every game my opponent's long range heavy firepower is usually focused on my Dreadnoughts. By the time the Dreads die, the Terminators and the rest of my army are where they need to be and it becomes a moot point.

[plawolf]

GKT or Paladins are no faster than TH/SS termies, less so in fact, since TH/SS termies would be running when you are shooting. If your opponent cannot catch your termies, it sounds like you are playing pretty poor opposition. They don't even have to catch you to completely ruin your day.

Your entire tactic requires good solid cover saves or your shrouding is not worth using over your built in 5++. A decent opponent would force to to choose between staying in cover and getting charged by TH/SS termies, or having to bolt from cover and exposing yourself to low ap high str shooting.

What more, most of the time when someone takes TH/SS termies, they are usually 7-8 strong, maybe with an attached character that all rides in a LRC, so its even more improbable to expect to being able to avoid them. And even at 7-8 strong, TH/SS termies will eat GKTs in CC.

You might get some joy against players not too familiar with GKs, but as your oppents start to get a better idea of what GKs can and cannot do and start to pick up on their weaknesses, they should be able to effectively counter a 10 men GKT squad camping the midfield, especially in objective games and when your opponents start playing more aggressively to throw a spanner in your game plan.

[Bean]

I've been playing Draigo and paladins basically since the codex came out, and I agree. Draigo's ability to suck up lascannon and melta shots that would otherwise be ruining your paladins is almost always worth how much you spend on him. Also of note is that he is mastery 2, where a normal GM is mastery one. I make use of that second psychic power routinely.

[DarkLink]

GKT or Paladins are no faster than TH/SS termies, less so in fact, since TH/SS termies would be running when you are shooting. If your opponent cannot catch your termies, it sounds like you are playing pretty poor opposition. They don't even have to catch you to completely ruin your day.

But Grey Knights have guns. He can run at me for 2-3 turns as fast as he can, but I can just back up a bit, shoot him for 2-3 turns, then charge him when he gets close enough. I get the charge, I pick my fight, and he's taken 2-3 rounds of storm bolter and psycannon fire, meaning I'll probably kill him on the charge.



Your entire tactic requires good solid cover saves or your shrouding is not worth using over your built in 5++. A decent opponent would force to to choose between staying in cover and getting charged by TH/SS termies, or having to bolt from cover and exposing yourself to low ap high str shooting.

Learn to create cover yourself. It's a valuable skill. In fact, I almost never have to actually sit in area terrain to get cover saves.



What more, most of the time when someone takes TH/SS termies, they are usually 7-8 strong, maybe with an attached character that all rides in a LRC, so its even more improbable to expect to being able to avoid them. And even at 7-8 strong, TH/SS termies will eat GKTs in CC.

Yes, and I've faced LRs full of assault units before and still won.

In particular, at the Socal Slaughter I faced an opponent with a full Purifier squad with Halberds backed up by a Librarian and a Xenos Inquisitor with grenades in a Redeemer. Actually quite a bit nasiter than 10 THSS termies on the charge, though less durable. Obviously his goal is to assault one of my large GK units, so I put sacrificial melta squads in front to slow him down. After a couple turns of blocking his movement, I eventually managed to pop the Raider with a Psycannon (all my meltas missed). I then shot the Purifiers to death.

Exact same thing would happen against THSS Terminators, unless I have some bad luck. Pop the Land Raider, block their movement with cheap units, then shoot them up. By the time they make it into combat, there's not going to be 7+Chaplain anymore. There will be maybe 3-4, and most of those will get killed before they get a chance to strike. I lose 1-2 Terminators myself, then finish them off in combat the next round or whatever.



You might get some joy against players not too familiar with GKs, but as your oppents start to get a better idea of what GKs can and cannot do and start to pick up on their weaknesses, they should be able to effectively counter a 10 men GKT squad camping the midfield, especially in objective games and when your opponents start playing more aggressively to throw a spanner in your game plan.

Maybe if I play stupid, which you seem to think I do. There's not a whole lot of skill in running up the middle hoping my opponent is an idiot. There is a whole lot of skill in running up the middle creating cover for myself, judging threat ranges to what can and can't hurt me, and baiting my opponent to maneuver in a way that's favorable to me.

[plawolf]

But Grey Knights have guns. He can run at me for 2-3 turns as fast as he can, but I can just back up a bit, shoot him for 2-3 turns, then charge him when he gets close enough. I get the charge, I pick my fight, and he's taken 2-3 rounds of storm bolter and psycannon fire, meaning I'll probably kill him on the charge.

Sounds like wishlisting to me.


Learn to create cover yourself. It's a valuable skill. In fact, I almost never have to actually sit in area terrain to get cover saves.

And its no mystical special power only you know how to use. And it can be countered easily enough with the right tools and/or moves.

It is plainly silly to expect, no, count on being able to generate a cover save when a good opponent can easily maneuver and deny you that cover save you depend on so much.

From what I have seen, most of your opponents were playing fairly defensively, probably a little wary of an unfamiliar army and what little is common knowledge (like an army of force weapons, and psycannons being nasty), but its only a matter of time before people start getting a good measure of the new GKs, and start to really play aggressively and get in your face as much as you are getting in their faces.


Yes, and I've faced LRs full of assault units before and still won.

And grots have beating assault termies in CC.


Exact same thing would happen against THSS Terminators, unless I have some bad luck. Pop the Land Raider, block their movement with cheap units, then shoot them up. By the time they make it into combat, there's not going to be 7+Chaplain anymore. There will be maybe 3-4, and most of those will get killed before they get a chance to strike. I lose 1-2 Terminators myself, then finish them off in combat the next round or whatever.

Again, sounds like wish listing and using your entire army to beat up on one unit. Guess you are also counting on the rest of his army sitting out half the game while you use your entire army to pull off this unlikely scenario.

Even with psybolts, autocannons are no good against AV12, so you are relying on your psycannons to rend to have much chance of popping the LR. That's hardly as straight forward or reliable as you seem to want to think.

You mentioned you throwing some sacrificial squads at the enemy to slow them down, ever stopped to think what would happen to you oh so pretty battle plan if the enemy did that to you and bogged you down with some assault marines for a turn or two? Suddenly you are not shooting or moving, and you would be lucky to finish off the assault marines before the assault termies pile in.

If you are that obsessed with the assault termies, frankly the would have done their job even if everything goes as you want, since the rest of his army has gotten a free pass for half the game.


Maybe if I play stupid, which you seem to think I do. There's not a whole lot of skill in running up the middle hoping my opponent is an idiot. There is a whole lot of skill in running up the middle creating cover for myself, judging threat ranges to what can and can't hurt me, and baiting my opponent to maneuver in a way that's favorable to me.

So in other words, you just expect your opponent to play stupid and dance to your tune at every turn.

I know about generating cover saves, but I also know how to counter that so you get no cover saves unless you happen to be camped in terrain.

If you always go into battle expecting the best case scenario, you can count on loosing at some point.

[DarkLink]

Sounds like wishlisting to me.

We're getting a new codex already? That was quick.

Or do you mean wishful thinking? Maybe this would be, if I didn't already actually do it a lot. Evidence is better than theory, especially when theory tends to be based on approximations anyways. And y'know, the funny thing is, when I play well and pull it off, I win, and if I mess it up by misjudging a charge range or something I lose.

I lost my last game against 'nidz because I got too aggressive and misjudged the charge distance of one unit of genestealers, and my opponent's combined forces were enough to cause mutual destruction. Then the rest of his army was able to bog down the rest of mine and trap me in my deployment zone. Had I moved or deployed just a little bit better, he only would have gotten one unit of genestealers into CC and I probably would have wiped them and then gotten a second round of shooting against the second unit, and with a little luck taken out the only things that could really threaten my Terminators.



And its no mystical special power only you know how to use. And it can be countered easily enough with the right tools and/or moves.

It is plainly silly to expect, no, count on being able to generate a cover save when a good opponent can easily maneuver and deny you that cover save you depend on so much.

Sure, sometimes you have to suck it up. But this is what Rhinos are for. And Smoke Launchers. And Shrouding. Vehicles with 3+ cover are very difficult to remove, and can easily provide cover against the majority of my opponent's army. Every once and a while something will slip past and I lose a Terminator, but that's just the way the game goes. And so far, the only games where I've lost all my Terminators were when they got assaulted by a bunch of genestealers, or when they spent 6 turns marching across the board absorbing 2000pts worth of fire while the rest of my army did what it pleased. The Terminators may die, but I control the rest of the board. The rest of my games my Terminators have survived, so I must be doing something right.

And before you go there, because I'm sure you will, my opponents are not bad players. Well, most of them aren't. There are a couple, but I don't play them regularly. You'll just have to take my word that the handful of players I normally face are solid, and that I'm not just getting a free pass because my opponent is a noob.

It's also important to remember that with all the Psyrifle Dreads and Psycannons I have, Gks are very good at suppressing enemy vehicles. It's all well and good to think that even though I have cover against most of your army you can still drive a unit around and rapidfire a plasma rifle at me, until I stun you and you can't move or shoot. Against Razorback spam lists, I've been able to reliably keep a half-dozen razorbacks stunned/weapon destroyed for almost the whole game on several occasions, limiting their firepower enough that they are trapped in their deployment zone and barely have enough to whittle down just my Terminators over the course of a game, let alone killing my entire army.



From what I have seen, most of your opponents were playing fairly defensively, probably a little wary of an unfamiliar army and what little is common knowledge (like an army of force weapons, and psycannons being nasty), but its only a matter of time before people start getting a good measure of the new GKs, and start to really play aggressively and get in your face as much as you are getting in their faces.

Some have played defensively, such as razorback spam BA/SWs and IG chimera walls, while others have been very aggressive, such as 'nidz, DE and BA Dreadnought spam. I've found that most lists tend to be on the defensive side, but what you mention here is a very important point. Regardless of army, you have to be able to realize when you should be the aggressor and when you should be the defender. Just as important, you have to be able to consciously recognize shifts in the battlefield that cause you to swap roles with your opponent, and to be able to recognize when you can press the attack on one flank but have to give up on the other.

So while I offhandedly said that I 'just march the terminators up the middle', what I've been trying to explain is that what I actually do with the Terminators is far more complex than that, and just as often it's the rest of my army in front of my Terminators as opposed to the other way around.



And grots have beating assault termies in CC.

Yes. The difference is that one is statistically improbably, while the other works fairly reliably. In case you haven't read the vehicle rules, Land Raiders can't tank shock through my Rhinos/Razorbacks, and a half-dozen meltaguns have fairly good odds of killing the Land Raider. I don't know why you think my Terminators are completely unsupported by the rest of my army. And since I played GKs with the old codex, I've been using Land Raiders in pretty much every game from when 5th ed came out to the new GK 'dex came out, so I know what does and does not work well against Land Raiders. For two years Land Raiders full of GKs were my bread and butter.



Again, sounds like wish listing and using your entire army to beat up on one unit. Guess you are also counting on the rest of his army sitting out half the game while you use your entire army to pull off this unlikely scenario.

If you mean my Terminators and a couple cheap acolyte squads to deal with the biggest threat to my army, while the rest of my Grey Knights and Dreadnoughts hold off the rest of his army, then sure.



Even with psybolts, autocannons are no good against AV12, so you are relying on your psycannons to rend to have much chance of popping the LR. That's hardly as straight forward or reliable as you seem to want to think.

Sure, one autocannon isn't great against AV12. And IG Chimera walls are one of the big weaknesses of my list. I think I need to figure out a way to fit a few more psycannons in it, somewhere. I'll probably take some Purifiers for that.

That said, 3 Psyrifle Dreads and 6 psycannons is nothing to laugh at, even against AV12. It might not be great at killing lots of Chimeras, but against Rhinos or Dreadnoughts it works just fine. I played a BA drop pod Dreadnought army and even though I didn't have enough firepower to actually kill every Dread, all I had to do was immobilize them. Once I did that, I just ignored them, and won on objectives. Unfortunately, that doesn't work as well against IG.



You mentioned you throwing some sacrificial squads at the enemy to slow them down, ever stopped to think what would happen to you oh so pretty battle plan if the enemy did that to you and bogged you down with some assault marines for a turn or two? Suddenly you are not shooting or moving, and you would be lucky to finish off the assault marines before the assault termies pile in.

How many assault Marines? Because the unit of Terminators will, on average, kill more than 10 MEQ models in one round of combat, even if they didn't get the charge. Just my halberds will kill ~6, assuming I get hammerhand off (which I probably will, since between the unit and the Librarian and Coteaz if I have him attached I get several attempts).



If you are that obsessed with the assault termies, frankly the would have done their job even if everything goes as you want, since the rest of his army has gotten a free pass for half the game.

And if my opponent is so obssessed with my assault Terminators that he puts multiple assault Marine squads into them (while ignoring the rest of my army), then runs the gauntlet past the rest of my army and their meltaguns/psycannons in order get into assault with my guys, then my terminators have done their jobs.

Or, if both me and my opponent are actually smart players, what's in the rest of our armies might actually matter. So does the terrain, and the deployment, and the mission, and who goes first, and whether or not I get lucky and pop the raider with an off psycannon shot, or if I fail to pop any of his other vehicles, or if he manages to kill all my vehicles and wipe out my melta squads, or catches one of my GKSS units out in the open and manages to kill it, or any one of any number of other things that can't be quantified with sweeping generalizations that you seem to like to make.



So in other words, you just expect your opponent to play stupid and dance to your tune at every turn.

I expect that either I will outplay my opponent and win, or my opponent will outplay me and I lose. Why would I expect anything else? I suppose one of use might get screwed over by the dice, but we have no control over that so there's little point in worrying about that.



I know about generating cover saves, but I also know how to counter that so you get no cover saves unless you happen to be camped in terrain.

You do know you also get cover if LOS is mostly blocked to a unit, right? And you realize that most weapons that are a big threat to my Terminators, namely high AP stuff, are usually either heavy weapons or mounted on vehicles, which means they are immobile or static or can be shaken. Yes, most armies will have a few guns that can drive 12" and disembark and rapid fire around my vehicles to get a clear shot at my Terminators. But after playing this unit and army for a couple months, against a number of quality players, I can without reservation say that a competent player with enough vehicles in their army can reliably produce cover for a given unit that is difficult to remove or circumvent. If you decide that your internet dick is bigger than mine here, then go ahead and refuse to believe me. It's not like we have a ruler we can pull out to measure and compare.



If you always go into battle expecting the best case scenario, you can count on loosing at some point.

I don't really go into battle expecting anything, other than what I mentioned just above. Instead, when I see something in the game that is a threat, I try and take it out. If it's no longer a threat, or if there are other, bigger threats, I try and deal with those first.

This is basic target priority that I'm talking about. It's not that complicated, really. Just think 'what can I do to win, and what can my opponent do to win or try to stop me from winning'. Once you've figured that out, you're one step closer to victory. Some games that means that I absolutely have to kill his Land Raider full of guys before he hits my lines. Other games it means that I need to ignore his Land Raider full of guys and kill his other stuff first, then come back to the Land Raider and guys if I can.

[Denied]

Palwolf and DarkLink at it again you say? You two just need to F**k and get it over with. Honestly listening to the arguments you both make is like listening to a pessimist and optimist fight it does no good. Just stop one of you please. I agree a good player CAN make cover for themselves and a good player CAN take away cover saves from another. Guess what your both right!! OMG !!1one. Truth be told in a perfectly balanced game with perfectly balanced armies and perfectly balanced players it all comes down to the dice, but we don't live in a perfect world so eventually someone is going to F**k up and expose themselves (if your me this happens fairly often :-P) and it is in these moments that a game gets decided.

We can sit here and argue strategy and game play over and over again, but the best tool in a players arsenal is their ability to recognize when the opponent made a mistake and attack while limiting the mistakes they make and the only way to truly gain that skill is to play constantly and learn.

Now can you two stop this I am a better Grey Knights player D**k measuring contest so we can actually discuss tactics in a constructive manner because you both lost that some time ago.

:: Topic Change::

I am becoming more and more interested in converting my terminators in the current list I run to Palys but the fear I have is in the lose of GKSS because pals are hella expensive. I also don't think it is necessary to have Dargo in a paly list because you can get a better GM for fewer points and use his Grand Strategy to turn the palys into scoring units.

I like the idea of combat squading them though. I mean you could have roughly 5 psycannons (if the GM has one) in a unit since they are all in terminator armor they are shooting 4 time with each meaning any thing you target gets blasted in the face with 20 Str 7 rending shots .... it will die :-P

The other fear is the additional wound isn't worth the points because they can still die to force weapons and other multi wound killers. They don't have FNP or EW so its potentially devastating if the opponent has a multi wound model killer. I mean if they hit them and succeed you loose like have of the points in your list .

[DarkLink]

I want to try out Paladins because you can get more wounds for less points, and you get more Psycannons on top of that.



Honestly listening to the arguments you both make is like listening to a pessimist and optimist fight it does no good.

It's even more pointless to me. I basically offhandedly made a comment about taking a bunch of Terminators and having a lot of success with them, then suddenly there's plawolf arguing "the tactics that you've been using successfully for the last two month would never ever ever work, ever, against anyone who has played more than three games".

For me, this isn't a question about whether or not the Terminator unit I take works. I know it does, and I know it works against plenty of nasty lists and in a competitive tournament setting. I just find it kinda funny that someone is so utterly convinced that I can't possibly win doing what I have been.

[Denied]

I want to try out Paladins because you can get more wounds for less points, and you get more Psycannons on top of that.

This is the same reason I am interested I just don't think Draigo is worth it in comparison to a GM. Like I said a GM you can give a psycannon as well, especially if the strategy you are using is to combat squad them into Psycannons and non psycannon units and have Draigo sit with the psycannons protecting them, why not (for cheaper) make it a psycannon wielding GM?

I know it has also been debated whether having a GM and Libby both is worth it at 2000pts, I think it is especially in this situation because you have lets say your GM go off with the psycannon shooty guys and then have the libby roll with the assault squad providing things like Sanctuary, Might of Titan, Quicksilver, and Hammerhand to boost the CC abilities and they will defiantly wreck stuff up.



:: I am going to ignore the rest of your post as I see it as counter productive to getting back on track to a non- he said she said argument, don't take offense::

[Bean]

This is the same reason I am interested I just don't think Draigo is worth it in comparison to a GM. Like I said a GM you can give a psycannon as well, especially if the strategy you are using is to combat squad them into Psycannons and non psycannon units and have Draigo sit with the psycannons protecting them, why not (for cheaper) make it a psycannon wielding GM?

I know it has also been debated whether having a GM and Libby both is worth it at 2000pts, I think it is especially in this situation because you have lets say your GM go off with the psycannon shooty guys and then have the libby roll with the assault squad providing things like Sanctuary, Might of Titan, Quicksilver, and Hammerhand to boost the CC abilities and they will defiantly wreck stuff up.



:: I am going to ignore the rest of your post as I see it as counter productive to getting back on track to a non- he said she said argument, don't take offense::

This is basically the way I felt, at first--I liked paladins for the extra density-per-point they offered, but wasn't entirely sold on Draigo.

Having played Draigo several times, now, I am entirely sold on Draigo. The difference between Draigo and a normal GM is drastic--where a normal GM dies to lascannons almost as easily as a paladin--and thus you never really put those lascannon wounds on him till the end--Draigo is extremely resilient to lascannons. Between his 3+ invulnerable, Eternal Warrior, and extra wound, he can soak up wounds that would insta-kill you paladins in a way that the normal Grand Master will never even come close to matching.

I do wish he had a psycannon, obviously, but, with Draigo, you definitely get what you pay for--and it's something that is particularly useful to paladins and something that nothing else in the codex can provide.

Don't balk at paladins because of Draigo. He's totally worth it.

[DarkLink]

The only reason i wouldnt take driago is if i didnt wantto have a 800+ pt unit as the core of my army. With a paladin heavy list that isnt a problem, but it could be if you only have a few paladins. You end up with a solid rock, but so few points to spend on the rest of the army it becomes easy prey. A full paladin army doesnt really have that problem as your whole army is equally hard. But with only one medium unit of paladins i prefer hqs that support my whole army rather than just one unit.

Incidentally, i just played a game vs a guy who just picked up de, for a change of pace from his cheesy armies. Fun game, and i took paladins since there isnt much better at killing paladins than de. 6 paladins, a librarian, and i only lost one and another took a wound. The rest of my aemy was beat up, but i was way ahead on killpoints and he was even more beat up. Fun game, ill post some pictures.

And while he didnt have nightshields, he did have aethersails and got in my face turn one so i had to eat some assaults from wyches, that and the venoms killed most of my strike squads. GKs still mow diwn de vehicles, butfnp from his wyches drugs saved a ton of his dudes and bought him a chance.

Now i just need to figure out the optimum halberd/falchion mix to make up for the fewer attacks in cc.

And i got a nook color, which is pretty awesome. Excuse the non-capitalized i's, if you will.