Grey Knights and Eldar/Dark Eldar

[Denied]

Grey Knights have a lot of stuff that does extra harm to Daemons and psykers like Nemesis Force Weapons and Psyk-out grenades. Technically all Eldar are psykers at the very least for the purposes of fluff. So do these items harm all Eldar units or juts units with psychic powers.

I am fairly certain everyone is going to say only those with powers, but seriously all Eldar are all psykers!

So what does the internet think?

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Grey Knights have a lot of stuff that does extra harm to Daemons and psykers like Nemesis Force Weapons and Psyk-out grenades. Technically all Eldar are psykers at the very least for the purposes of fluff. So do these items harm all Eldar units or juts units with psychic powers.

I am fairly certain everyone is going to say only those with powers, but seriously all Eldar are all psykers!

So what does the internet think?

Most defently only Psyker units, it would just be ridiculous if they worked on EVERY unit + Dark Eldar aren't psykers, not at all. There power withered away, they fear pyskers in some ways

[Archon Charybdis]

If it doesn't have the Psyker rule, it isn't a psyker. Feel free to go to town on the Avatar with your daemon-affecting abilities though.

[Necron_Lord]

Most defently only Psyker units, it would just be ridiculous if they worked on EVERY unit + Dark Eldar aren't psykers, not at all. There power withered away, they fear pyskers in some ways

That's how we view it as well.

Affected Dark Eldar Units - Shadowseer

Affected Eldar Units - Eldrad, Farseer, Warlock (Spiritseer), Shadowseer

The rest don't have to worry about it. They only have to worry about those psyfileman dreads, force weapons, psycannons, etc. ;D

[Nabterayl]

Definitely only those with the option to buy powers. Remember, all Grey Knights are psykers too, but that doesn't mean they all count as psykers for rules purposes.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Definitely only those with the option to buy powers. Remember, all Grey Knights are psykers too, but that doesn't mean they all count as psykers for rules purposes.

Ironically they do. As they all have Psyker in there rules, where as Eldar do not :L (Every grey knight can use a power of some variety, meaning Eldar and Tyranids can screw the dynamic of the Grey Knights army :L)

[Nabterayl]

Ironically they do. As they all have Psyker in there rules, where as Eldar do not :L (Every grey knight can use a power of some variety, meaning Eldar and Tyranids can screw the dynamic of the Grey Knights army :L)
I disagree with that, but it sounds like that has the potential to derail the thread, so feel free to ignore my example. I still agree with the others that only eldar models with the option to purchase psychic powers count as psykers for rules purposes.

[Necron_Lord]

I disagree with that, but it sounds like that has the potential to derail the thread, so feel free to ignore my example. I still agree with the others that only eldar models with the option to purchase psychic powers count as psykers for rules purposes.

The Shadowseer for Harlequins doesn't have an option to purchase psychic powers as it comes with Veil of Tears with the purchase, but besides that caveat, I agree.

[Archon Charybdis]

Ironically they do. As they all have Psyker in there rules, where as Eldar do not :L

No, they don't have the Psyker rule, they have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule, which details how you handle PotW and Psyker affecting attacks directed at the unit.

[thecactusman17]

Brotherhood of psykers states very emphatically that the entire gk unit counts as a single psyker. So they will be affected by rules and abilities that affect psykers. BOP then describes how wounds and effects caused by those abilities are translated throughout the unit.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

So... In effect I was right to say what I said :L? But it's probably a good point Nabetrayl I do not want to mess with the thread, I just thought I should point it out D:

[Xelkireth]

Dark Eldar are most definitely not psykers.

[DarkLink]

As far as the rules are concerned, the only eldar psykers are Farseers and probably Warlocks. And for Grey Knights, the Brotherhood of Pyskers rule covers everything you need to know on how to handle GKs as psykers.

[Nabterayl]

They're right about shadowseers also being psykers; see eldar codex page 49.

[Denied]

Yeah Shadowseer's are psykers, yes ALL Grey Knights are psykers (for the interest of game rules). I knew the answer btw before I posted this, but I still feel all Eldar (exception Dark Eldar) should be considered psykers just because fluff actually says they are. I mean it was the psychic potential of the Eldar and their hedonistic ways that birthed Slaanesh, every Eldar is as powerful a psyker as a standard Marine Librarian.

I think GW needs to put out a FAQ for Eldar stating they are all special rule Psyker.

[Xelkireth]

I think GW needs to put out a FAQ for Eldar stating they are all special rule Psyker.

That's ludicrously absurd.

[Naravus]

Making all eldar Psykers would be absurd, as previously stated.

As this is somewhat relative, the greater and lesser daemons from Codex: Chaos Space Marines are not daemons....weirdly enough.

[Xelkireth]

Agreed. I'm done with this thread though. The OP obviously doesn't understand the balance between fluff and gameplay mechanics.

[Archon Charybdis]

every Eldar is as powerful a psyker as a standard Marine Librarian.

I would love to see anything even remotely suggesting this in the fluff. And if you want to give even my basic Dire Avenger Smite and Gate of Infinity, then I'd be more than happy to treat them as being Psykers.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Denied there psychic might did create Slaanesh... But in the same way that the Humans Psychic might feeds the warp. Granted all Eldar are Psykers, but unless they walk along the path of the the Seer, then they are not Psykers in the way everyone understands it. I.E they are psychic, but to a level that such Grey Knight attacks would not effect them...

As we'd have to say ALL Orks are Psychic, as there Weapons, Vehicles, and other stuff, they use only works because the Orks will it to work :L.

Oh and no, basic Eldar are no where near the level of power as a Space Marine Librarian... Space Marine Librarians are quite high in the power scale tbh (because they are marines) + What benefit would making all Eldar psykers be? It would just unbalance the game for the Eldar

[TheRise]

Rules and Fluff are seperate. It seems that fluff has no effect on rules.

[Image]

Yeah Shadowseer's are psykers, yes ALL Grey Knights are psykers (for the interest of game rules). I knew the answer btw before I posted this, but I still feel all Eldar (exception Dark Eldar) should be considered psykers just because fluff actually says they are. I mean it was the psychic potential of the Eldar and their hedonistic ways that birthed Slaanesh, every Eldar is as powerful a psyker as a standard Marine Librarian.

I think GW needs to put out a FAQ for Eldar stating they are all special rule Psyker.

Can't tell if stupid or trolling.

[dannyat2460]

Can't tell if stupid or trolling.

TBH id rather not know eather way its a fail :(

[Tynskel]

Denied there psychic might did create Slaanesh... But in the same way that the Humans Psychic might feeds the warp. Granted all Eldar are Psykers, but unless they walk along the path of the the Seer, then they are not Psykers in the way everyone understands it. I.E they are psychic, but to a level that such Grey Knight attacks would not effect them...

As we'd have to say ALL Orks are Psychic, as there Weapons, Vehicles, and other stuff, they use only works because the Orks will it to work :L.

Oh and no, basic Eldar are no where near the level of power as a Space Marine Librarian... Space Marine Librarians are quite high in the power scale tbh (because they are marines) + What benefit would making all Eldar psykers be? It would just unbalance the game for the Eldar

If we are going to go down this route, we know 2 things for sure: Both Necrons and Tau are NOT psychic.

But, that's not the point.
The psychic rule is to designate those whose psychic might/potential is developed to the point that they are 'targets' for daemons--- ie, they can suffer perils of the warp (even if they have rules that negate perils, like typhus).

For example, tyranid warriors used to be considered psykers, but they lost that term, because the reality is that their psychic talent does not draw daemons toward possession.

[Xas]

eldar are more psychic than humans.
humans are more psychic than tau.

so by that logic everyone but tau/necron/de (they removed the trait as to not attract slanesh towards commoragh) should be considered a psyker...

I'd love for my 10point item to eradicate EVERYTHING within 2d6 so lets go with that.



now back to actual usefull stuff:
fluff wise a normal human has more latent psychic potential than your guardian/aspect warrior simply because the eldar know about their taint and are taught how to shield themselfes where most humans do not even know that they are very weak psykers and therefore that little potential runs awild.

[eldargal]

That is not quite right. a Guardian or Aspect Warrior still have more latent psychic ability than a human as they use it in their day to day lives. They communicate via psychic interface with the Craftworld, they open doors, turn on lights, sculpt etc. They even interface with their armour psychically, Aspect Warriors at least (a lot of this is in Path of the Warrior). They just aren't trained to unleash it on the battlefield unless they join the path of the Warlock.

Psychic abilty in humans seems to be a genetic thing, from memory, and only some humans have the gene. So many humans have no psychic ability whatsover.

I would assume that anti-psyker weaponry only effects those individuals with significantly developed psychic powers, not your every day Eldar psychicness. For Grey Knights it becomes a little more complex because they are all supposed to be 'psykers', but from a rules perspective they didn't want whole squads of the elite of elite dissapearing when someone opens a Crucible of Malediction or whatever.

[Gir]

As this is somewhat relative, the greater and lesser daemons from Codex: Chaos Space Marines are not daemons....weirdly enough.

This falls into my "Rule-disputes-so-stupid-you-deserver-to-be-punched-if-you-try-to-argue-it" category.

[tabyrd]

I have a somewhat related question about what counts as a psyker... but pointed towards the DE's Crucible of Malediction. The wording of the Brotherhood of Psykers doesn't quite jive with the wording of the Dark Eldar Crucible of Malediction in terms of a clear cut answer. I mean that it could be argued both ways just how the crucible damages the GKs.

The crucible says, "Once per game, every psyker within 3d6" must take a leadership test or be removed".

I don't have the exact wording of Brother of Psykers with me, perhaps someone can supply it. But basically the wording of 'targeting the unit' or whatever doesn't quite make it clear if you treat the unit as one per the brotherhood of psykers rule or if the crucible's attack is special. It's technically not targeting any units, it's just hitting every psyker in range. blah blah, argue argue. Basically, do you go with the unit counts as a single psyker (brotherhood of psykers) so only one guy could possibly die from the crucible or does each individual have to take a leadership test?

Put that argument aside for a moment. What about vehicles? They have psychic pilots. It would seem logical that they are indeed psykers, or at least their pilots are. Does this mean they are susceptible? Say they are, what happens to it if you fail your LD10 check? Rules say it is removed. Ok clear for a dreadnought, but what if that vehicle was a rhino or razorback with guys inside? Does the whole vehicle go poof with the guys inside or does just the 'driver' disappear. If he does, what does that do to the vehicle?

[DarkLink]

One model in each unit of GKs with the Brotherhood of Psykers take the leadership test and may suffer Perils. It only affects one model per unit. Any @#$hole trying to claim that the Crucible doesn't "target" psykers and thus hits the whole unit of GKs deserves a broken nose.

As for vehicles, technically it seems they would take the test and possibly be 'removed from play'. The wording as it relates to Psychic Pilots is a little unclear, but this is the most direct and logical resolution. What happens to a unit inside isn't clear, since GW hasn't deigned to think about that.

[w7west]

Crucible can be argued either way, but generally speaking no elite grey knight player will let you blow up his entire army with a 10 point piece of wargear.

That being said here is something to think about:

I agree that brotherhood makes the entire squad count as a single psycher.
I agree that one leadership check is made for the entire squad against crucible.

But what should happen when this check is failed? I can see two schools of thought here:



1. Since it says only the main dude suffers effects of perils, he should be removed but the rest of the squad is fine.

2. The entire squad is one psycher that just failed it's leadership check. To the slave racks with the entire squad.



There is no rule saying what happens to the embarked unit when it's psycher rhino gets removed from play so that will just have to be house ruled.

[Archon Charybdis]

Crucible can be argued either way, but generally speaking no elite grey knight player will let you blow up his entire army with a 10 point piece of wargear.

That being said here is something to think about:

I agree that brotherhood makes the entire squad count as a single psycher.
I agree that one leadership check is made for the entire squad against crucible.

But what should happen when this check is failed? I can see two schools of thought here:

This keeps coming up, but the answer is already very clearly detailed in the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. Individual Grey Knights do not have the Psyker special rule, and are not eligible targets for the Crucible (or any psyker-specific effect). The squad as a whole however, counts as a single psyker, and "If the Grey Knight unit suffers... any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame... or against a random non-character model in the squad."

[Tynskel]

Rules and Fluff are seperate. It seems that fluff has no effect on rules.

This is most definitely, not the case.

check the Grey Knight FAQ 'plasma'--- anything with plasma as fluff description counts as plasma.

Or check out smoke lauchers-- you are actually launching smoke and can actually put smoke on the board, but don't have too.

This goes on n' on.