Chaos is...back?

[BrokenWing]

Got tired of not playing Chaos in 40k. Will be awhile before I can buy anything for them because other projects are in the way, but here is version 1 of their comeback army list.

HQ


Grand Praetor Romulus (Abaddon)- 275

Elites

4 Praetorian Guard (Terminators) with lightning claws, mark of khorne- 190

-Dedicated Pre-Heresy Land Raider with Daemonic Possession- 240


Troops

10 Noise Marines, 7 Sonic Blasters, - 285
-Dedicated Rhino with extra armor

10 Noise Marines, 7 Sonic Blasters, - 285
-Dedicated Rhino with extra armor

10 Plague Marines, Two Plasma Guns, Champion with a powerfist- 350
-Dedicated Rhino with extra armor


Heavy

3 Obliterators- 225

Defiler with 2 extra close combat weapons- 150

-2000

[BrokenWing]

Not sure I have enough tank hunting, but Chaos tank hunting is so expensive it was hard to squeeze in more and still have the stuff I wanted. I was thinking of perhaps dropping the Defiler for two more obliterators, but figured that a Defiler with that many attacks and fleet is its own form of tank hunting.

In a previous version of the list I had no Defiler and took 5 Chosen with all melta guns for infiltrating tank hunting.

[Denzark]

OK, some thoughts. YMMV - I play an assault heavy list.

First, your anti-tank. This is Abaddon, the Defiler, your oblits. Also the LR. However Abaddon and the terminators (an awesome unit that will stamp face of anything) want to use the LR taxi to get close so the risk to the LR goes up. I feel the oblits to be a bit brittle (I know that is not the competitive thought) and i would consider dropping for a defiler. 3 Oblits will die to bolters or even lasguns with enough of them. Defilers won't.

The 2 x DCCW defiler is awesome. Unless there is a priority target such as just landed DS'ers, I would fleet him every tun and try to get him into combat. He will rip MEQs and vehicles alike - keep him away from dreads (leave abbaddon to deal with those.)

The troops choices. I assume the Plague Marines are your objective holders armed with Plasma. You could probably drop a couple and have the same effect - ie remain in your plasma pill box aka rhino, on the objective, until forced to bail out. But depending on placement you may wish to go forward and TAKE the enemy on - in which case melta them up. You might as well stnad next to the enemy bolter them up - because the blight grenades mean honours are even when you are charged - you will probably hit last anyway.

The noise marines. A lot of weight of fire, but if my assumption is correct on your plague marines then the noise marines are the assault troops. You are not playing necessarily to their full advantage - the I5. This will mean you kill MEQ quicker than sonic blaster alone - particularly if it is BA or DE with FNP. I think you need Champs, power weapons, and also the assault template S5 AP3 weapon noise marines can have.

Where will you get the points? I recommend ditch the extra armour on the noise rhinos (and probably on the PM as well.) Because Rhinos should last you 1-2 turns max - then you are on the enemy if you have deployed properly. Trust the smoke to keep you going. Turn 1 12" + smoke, turn 2 disembark 2", Move 6", charge 6". A 26" range for turn 2 charge from your baseline, more if you set forward.

I like the terminators and my army is Khorne. But Unfortunately I reckon if you mathhammer the extra attack from Khorne, hitting simultaneously against MEQ, versus the I5 if you go Slaanesh (ehich is still fluffy for Black Legion) the I5 takes it. You will have the points for champs for +1A if you ditch extra armour and/or the oblits for defiler.

Remember some of my modifications may leave you feeling undergunned - when you are locked in hth biting their noses off they can't shoot you so hth > firepower.

Hope this helps,

[BrokenWing]

HQ


Grand Praetor Romulus (Abaddon)- 275

Elites

4 Praetorian Guard (Terminators) with lightning claws, mark of slaanesh, 3 Champions- 220

-Dedicated Pre-Heresy Land Raider with Daemonic Possession- 240


Troops

10 Noise Marines, 7 Sonic Blasters, Champion with doom siren, power weapon- 315
-Dedicated Rhino

10 Noise Marines, 7 Sonic Blasters, Champion with doom siren, power weapon- 315
-Dedicated Rhino

10 Plague Marines, Two Plasma Guns, Champion with a powerfist- 335
-Dedicated Rhino


Heavy

Defiler with 2 extra close combat weapons- 150

Defiler with 2 extra close combat weapons- 150

-2000

[BrokenWing]

Looks interesting, probably proxy test it next weekend. Saw a Slaanesh army at the GT today (it did...poorly, from what I could tell) and now I just want to go out and buy random Chaos stuff. Sadly, it's too far down on my project list, but I'll get to it.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

You have both got me into Chaos again... I will need to purchase my Emporers Children army xD. Btw I like the list, and Abaddon is hard as nails

[Bean]

This seems extremely thin for 2000 points. I think you have more tied up in that Raider/Termies/Abbadon that is really worthwhile.

[Denzark]

Remember Abaddon is hard enough to get out on his own - so is the Terminator squad. It is quite thin but used correctly can rinse MEQ and mech alike - and pinning or tarpitting hordes is childs play.

[Bean]

Any half-way decent mech eldar or mech guard list would ruin this--it has virtually no long ranged anti-tank. Lascannons on the Raider (which it can't use without slowing down your 500 point uber-close combat unit) and two battlecannons? If it gets lucky against Guard and gets abbadon in, he'll do some damage, but ruining this with Mech Eldar would be child's play--Abbadon would do nothing, and the rest of the army would basically be in the same boat.

I mean, sure--it's going to ruin half-assed mech marines shooting missiles out of rhinos, but that's just not a difficult feat.

Needs more guns. Specifically, more Obliterators. Otherwise, its just a rock--and will lose to its paper pretty much every time.

[BrokenWing]

See, you just basically defined the Chaos codex.

[BrokenWing]

Obliterators, especially enough of them to actually matter, are expensive as all hell, and so is the rest of their anti-tank. This codex was not designed for the world of everyone's in tanks and has a bunch of anti-tank weapons and does really poorly in said world. There's a reason I quit playing them and if you think that I intend to go to a bunch of tournaments and rack up wins with my chaos, you are sadly mistaken. I have other armies that do that.

[BrokenWing]

But on that note, I'll probably post another list in a moment.

[BrokenWing]

Don't feel like posting another one. Here's the thing, I can drop the Defiler and have 5 Obliterators for alot of anti-tank shooting...and then someone shoots them with high strength ap 2 guns and they drop like flies because that's what they do. Or I could take some predators, which are also massively over priced, or I could take havocs which are *amazingly* over priced. I just got done playing in a GT and almost every army list has 10+ high strength low ap guns to deal with Guard, Obliterators wouldn't last very long at all. The only viable alternative I see is a bunch of Havocs...and that's 35 points per lascannon and equates to 290 points for 10 guys.

[Bean]

I've been playing Chaos at tournaments throughout fifth edition, and I continue to do so--and I routinely win. I often use Obliterators. They are fantastic, even for their cost.

The Chaos Codex is certainly not the cream of the crop. It is, however, awfully close, and it can certainly bring sufficient non-cc anti-tank. Your list just doesn't, and pretending that it's the fault of the Chaos Codex just makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

I, on the other hand, do know what I'm talking about. If you want a good Chaos army, play obliterators. Use Berserkers as your hammer unit. Use Daemon Princes and expect them to die. Fill out the core with plenty of CSMs or Plague Marines--don't bother with Noise Marines. There are good armies to be had out of the codex. You don't have to play them, but don't write a bad one, ask for advice, and respond to the inevitable observation that your list is bad with the assertion that it can't be helped. That's just silly.

[BrokenWing]

Perhaps if the advice was presented in a less aggressive manner.

Look I can play someone else's Chaos army all I want, but I'll be bored with it in 3 minutes, win or lose, it won't matter. I have an army with a rather long standing back-story, it plays a specific way, it has specific types of units in it and is organized along specific lines. It has alot of noise marines, it has alot of plague marines,it has a handful of Khorne warriors. The army you described would not be that army, I'm not going to play that. I'm perfectly willing to try and see if Obliterators actually work against all the AP high strength instant death weapons that are floating around there, and I probably will.

I will not however play your army, nor will I sit here and be half told that I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm doing. I've been playing this game for a long time, I have other really good armies, I'm just looking for a way to make a Chaos army that halfway works *and* plays like *my* army, not yours.

Denzark's style is similar to the format my army would run under, fielding long rang anti-tank weapons is good advice (and maybe you should go back and look at the first list I posted). Just because I post a list in here doesn't make it the be all end all of what I will actually field. These lists are to get me thinking about how I want to go about rebuilding the army of the faction I most enjoy in both GW game systems. I've been toying with ideas that would put in obliterators and a possessed Predator, I even toyed with a 9 Obliterator list before I determined I didn't want to sink that many points into them.

This thread is about having a conversation with myself as much as it is with having a conversation with other Chaos enthusiasts, it helps me bring in other perspectives. When those perspectives are presented in a kind and friendly manner I greatly appreciate them. When they are presented in a know it all, abrasive manner, I don't.

Try giving advice sometime without telling the other person their list is trash or they don't know what they're talking about, you'll be amazed at how people respond. People post lists on here that are rough drafts at best, I'd imagine half the time you don't see the final list they end up playing. Sometimes, it takes a long time and alot of tinkering to get a good army that plays along the lines the person enjoys, because the codex they're using does not particularly cater to it or they're just really new to using that particular army. In this case, an army I loved using for a long time was torn to pieces and I sold it off as a result. Now I want to get back into it, just because I really like Chaos. I have no plans of winning a thousand tournaments with it, I have no plans of making it my primary or most competitive army out of the ones I field until it gets a new codex, because this one just barely allows me to play an army I enjoy.

Finally, I don't take Demon Princes because their cost efficiency is horrifyingly bad. I could just take a Summoned Greater Demon for far fewer points and not waste an HQ slot. However, "summoned greater demon" is such a horrifyingly generic entry I can't bring myself to do it. This codex can't even go to the effort of naming the damn thing.

[BrokenWing]

After the GT with my Space Wolves and how pleased I was with their performance, especially considering I'd never used that particular army list before saturday, I was thinking about certain adjustments to my Chaos. I also agree with Bean's first post (and if he read my comments after my own first post, he would have been aware of this from the beginning) that I lack log ranged anti-tank and need to correct that on some level. In an effort to get some balance between Obliterators and more armor, I went this route:

HQ


Grand Praetor Romulus (Abaddon)- 275

Elites

4 Praetorian Guard (Terminators) with lightning claws, mark of khorne- 190

-Dedicated Pre-Heresy Land Raider with Daemonic Possession- 240


Troops

10 Noise Marines, 7 Sonic Blasters, - 270
-Dedicated Rhino

10 Noise Marines, 7 Sonic Blasters, - 270
-Dedicated Rhino

10 Plague Marines, Two Plasma Guns, Champion with a powerfist- 335
-Dedicated Rhino


Heavy

3 Obliterators- 225

Predator with all lascannons, possession- 185.

-1990

There's ten points to play with and I'm not entirely happy with no champions on the noise marines and I'm gonna be honest, not extra armor makes me nervous as all hell. I do rather like the Predator and Obliterators though. I've considered making my terminators and hq defensive rather than offensive by dropping the land raider and using deep strike with an icon or two, but I'm not particularly confident in that working. Also I rather like Land Raiders. I also really still agree with all the things that have been said about gearing for more close combat and would love to get some Doom Sirens in here somehow. Unfortunately I think dropping an Obliterator might rather damage their survivability. Nice thing is though I could probably pick up a pair of Defilers and run them in random pickup games without too much trouble.

[BrokenWing]

Ultimately though, nothing I put together makes me as happy as my old list or looks half as fun. Still committed to rebuilding, but really hoping for a new codex with the flexibility, variety and powerful HQs I so love about Chaos. By the time I get to buying models for this army, they very well may have a new codex.

Currently on my priority list above purchasing their models:

Buying my Airborne Grey Knight list.

Buying my Purifirer Grey Knight list.

Getting my Dark Eldar to 2,000.

Completing my 3 and 6k Fantasy Chaos lists.

Rebuilding my 40k Chaos to 2,000 points.

[Bean]

If you don't want honest advice, don't ask for advice at all.

Also, if you think Daemon Princes are bad in terms of return/point ratio, you really don't know what you're doing. Barring Kharne, none of the other CSM HQs even come close. But, hey. If you don't want to play a good army, that's your business. You're certainly not obligated to take my advice--I just wonder why you bothered to ask for advice at all if your goal wasn't to gather tips on making your army better.

[BrokenWing]

I asked for advice, not someone acting like I'm an idiot for not having an army the way they would play it. If you even read half of what I post in this thread you would see that I actually do have lists with obliterators in them, and that I do agree that I need more anti-tank.

The advice I'm seeking is someone saying "You should probably take more anti-tank because...."

not:

"You're an idiot and have no idea what you're doing, do this."

[Bean]

I asked for advice, not someone acting like I'm an idiot for not having an army the way they would play it. If you even read half of what I post in this thread you would see that I actually do have lists with obliterators in them, and that I do agree that I need more anti-tank.

The advice I'm seeking is someone saying "You should probably take more anti-tank because...."

not:

"You're an idiot and have no idea what you're doing, do this."

I didn't say you were an idiot, and I did tell you why you should take more anti-tank. Do you have any legitimate objections to my posts, or are you just looking for something to be irritated about?

[BrokenWing]

Edited: Didn't see your last response.


You did say I had no idea what I was doing and clearly implied I was an idiot in the process. If you think I didn't listen to your anti-tank suggestion, look at the last list I posted.

[Bean]

I posted this:


Any half-way decent mech eldar or mech guard list would ruin this--it has virtually no long ranged anti-tank. Lascannons on the Raider (which it can't use without slowing down your 500 point uber-close combat unit) and two battlecannons? If it gets lucky against Guard and gets abbadon in, he'll do some damage, but ruining this with Mech Eldar would be child's play--Abbadon would do nothing, and the rest of the army would basically be in the same boat.

I mean, sure--it's going to ruin half-assed mech marines shooting missiles out of rhinos, but that's just not a difficult feat.

Needs more guns. Specifically, more Obliterators. Otherwise, its just a rock--and will lose to its paper pretty much every time.


In response, you posted this:


See, you just basically defined the Chaos codex.


This is sufficient to demonstrate that you don't know what you're talking about. I explained why that is the case. I didn't call you an idiot. I didn't imply that you were an idiot. I said that you don't know what you're talking about, then I explained why. If you imagined I said more than I did, that's your fault--not mine.


Also, that last list is an improvement, but not nearly enough of one. Possessed, tri-las predator is, unfortunately, not worth it. I've played it a bunch, out of necessity, and it rarely fails to disappoint.

At 2000 points, you need more. It doesn't necessarily have to be lascannons. Meltas are acceptable and easy to come by in the Chaos list. Again, dropping those noise marines for something good would solve the problem easily.

[BrokenWing]

After this weekend, I tend to agree that Noise Marines are much less useful than I want them to be, just not nearly as many infantry anymore as there used to be. I could probably do something a bit similar to my Space Wolf list that did pretty well at the GT but with Plague Marines.

I did consider (and am still considering) 5 man Chosen squads with 5 melta guns for infiltrating tank hunting, but I'm not really sure I'm sold on the idea. Things could go badly for them real fast if I didn't get first turn.

[Bean]

After this weekend, I tend to agree that Noise Marines are much less useful than I want them to be, just not nearly as many infantry anymore as there used to be. I could probably do something a bit similar to my Space Wolf list that did pretty well at the GT but with Plague Marines.

I did consider (and am still considering) 5 man Chosen squads with 5 melta guns for infiltrating tank hunting, but I'm not really sure I'm sold on the idea. Things could go badly for them real fast if I didn't get first turn.

Yeah, it seems tempting to use the Infiltrate on those Chosen, but, usually, it's just better to put them in a Rhino. Sometimes, you'll want to outflank them in their Rhino, but usually they'll end up being better as just a CSM squad with more meltas. If you're not filling out your Heavy Support slots, you can use quad-melta Havocs, too, to avoid paying for Infiltrate.

Going to Plague Marines would be a good call. Plasma is fine, but I'd try to give at least one squad melta guns.

[Denzark]

Respectfully, you're not playing to your strengths. Don't leap to Bean's tune. What the hell - Mech Eldar? As if this is anywhere near the magnitude of Mech Guard as a threat.

You are not playing to your strengths, as discussed previously. Noise Marines firing 7 sonic blasters are not as effective as getting in at least 20 I5 attacks - 30 if the squad charges. The power weapon will pair out a squad. Do the mathhammer!

Oblits are so easily countered nowadays, they'll die if they teleport close after one round of shooting, and can't melta at range - 3 lascannons might as well be a guard squad.

If you get first turn and throw everything right forward you may get 1st turn charges, lock the shooters and win. Use cover, use smoke. Defiler - a 66% chance of at least 9 " on first turn and 50% chance of surviving any attack no matter how strong. If you get second try reserving depending on table edges and terrain, or hide in cover or behind the raider!

This is a thin list but not impossible if you play to strengths.

[Bean]

Respectfully, you're not playing to your strengths. Don't leap to Bean's tune. What the hell - Mech Eldar? As if this is anywhere near the magnitude of Mech Guard as a threat.

You are not playing to your strengths, as discussed previously. Noise Marines firing 7 sonic blasters are not as effective as getting in at least 20 I5 attacks - 30 if the squad charges. The power weapon will pair out a squad. Do the mathhammer!

Oblits are so easily countered nowadays, they'll die if they teleport close after one round of shooting, and can't melta at range - 3 lascannons might as well be a guard squad.

If you get first turn and throw everything right forward you may get 1st turn charges, lock the shooters and win. Use cover, use smoke. Defiler - a 66% chance of at least 9 " on first turn and 50% chance of surviving any attack no matter how strong. If you get second try reserving depending on table edges and terrain, or hide in cover or behind the raider!

This is a thin list but not impossible if you play to strengths.

If you manage to get a first turn charge with this list, it means you're playing against an incompetent. No-one cares whether their lists can beat people who practically beat themselves.

Anyway, the list is garbage against Mech Guard, too.

[BrokenWing]

Wouldn't worry about me leaping to anyone's tune, I'm still mulling over alot of directions with this list and will probably post yet another version later in the day. There is much to consider, and much I wish to keep in mind after my good experiences at the Grand Tournament. If I can bring in what worked from my Space Wolves into the Chaos but in a good, Chaosy fashion, then I very well may do that. My space wolves had no anti-tank beyond 24 inches, but did pretty well and really only suffer against Tanks once, when I kept rolling ones to shake on penetrating hits against a pair of Land Raiders.

[BrokenWing]

HQ


Grand Praetor Romulus (Abaddon)- 275

Elites

4 Praetorian Guard (Terminators) with lightning claws, mark of slaanesh- 175

-Dedicated Pre-Heresy Land Raider with Daemonic Possession- 240

Troops:

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns-290
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns-290
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Two Melta Guns-250
-Dedicated Rhino-35

Heavy Support:

3 Obliterators- 225

Defiler, 2 extra ccw- 150

-2000

[Bean]

HQ


Grand Praetor Romulus (Abaddon)- 275

Elites

4 Praetorian Guard (Terminators) with lightning claws, mark of slaanesh- 175

-Dedicated Pre-Heresy Land Raider with Daemonic Possession- 240

Troops:

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns-290
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns-290
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Two Melta Guns-250
-Dedicated Rhino-35

Heavy Support:

3 Obliterators- 225

Defiler, 2 extra ccw- 150

-2000


I like that list better.

[BrokenWing]

The lack of extra armor makes me really nervous, but it gave me the points to put in the Defiler, which I think is worth doing.

[Bean]

The lack of extra armor makes me really nervous, but it gave me the points to put in the Defiler, which I think is worth doing.

I wouldn't worry about extra armor. It's really not worth it. Getting stunned does suck, but it's actually one of the least likely damage results--Shaken and Destroyed are the most common, by a substantial amount.

[Cheese]

HQ


Grand Praetor Romulus (Abaddon)- 275

Elites

4 Praetorian Guard (Terminators) with lightning claws, mark of slaanesh- 175

-Dedicated Pre-Heresy Land Raider with Daemonic Possession- 240

Troops:

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns-290
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns-290
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Two Melta Guns-250
-Dedicated Rhino-35

Heavy Support:

3 Obliterators- 225

Defiler, 2 extra ccw- 150

-2000

Well, despite what you all may like to think, Chaos Land Raiders are terrible. They're too expensive to be a transport, they're not good enough to be an AT gun platform and they don't have substantial anti-infantry fire to do that well either. All it is, especially with the uber-expensive unit you've got inside, is a big "shoot at me with your Lances and Melta's!" and when that happens your termies and Abbadon are stranded and easily ignored. Sure, this won't happen every game, but there's so many things you could spend your points on.

Abbadon, while being very tough and killy, is really not that great. Daemon Princes should be the only HQ's used in a Chaos list.

The Terminator loadout is not ideal either. They're best used for deep striking with combi-meltas. That'd also give you some more AT.

You could fit in more Obliterators easily.

To make the Plague Marines more flexible, give them a flamer and then give the champion a combi-melta.

Extra-Armour is not worth its points. No upgrades on rhinos are.

[L192837465]

I'll break this down:


Well, despite what you all may like to think, Chaos Land Raiders are terrible. They're too expensive to be a transport, they're not good enough to be an AT gun platform and they don't have substantial anti-infantry fire to do that well either. All it is, especially with the uber-expensive unit you've got inside, is a big "shoot at me with your Lances and Melta's!" and when that happens your termies and Abbadon are stranded and easily ignored. Sure, this won't happen every game, but there's so many things you could spend your points on.

I agree. One land raider is awful. I'd drop the raider, pump your termies squad to 7 or 8 dudes, with a couple power fists and some combi-meltas. They really are amazing. Then I'd just deep strike em or run them up behind the rhinos.


Abbadon, while being very tough and killy, is really not that great. Daemon Princes should be the only HQ's used in a Chaos list.

I really like abbadon, because he is such a force multiplier in a unit of terminators. After you drop that LR, you should have the points for a DP. You can have your cake and eat it, too. Make him Slaanesh and give him lash. That'll help your teminators maul stuff quicker.



The Terminator loadout is not ideal either. They're best used for deep striking with combi-meltas. That'd also give you some more AT.

I addressed this above.




You could fit in more Obliterators easily.

While oblits are good, they aren't the end-all-be-all of Chaos. Especially with the termies kitted with some anti-armour.



To make the Plague Marines more flexible, give them a flamer and then give the champion a combi-melta.


What? How often have you ever used a flamer more than once. It's always better as the combi-weapon. Combi-flamer on all your champs and one melta-gun and one plasma gun will go a very long ways to helping your army.


Extra-Armour is not worth its points. No upgrades on rhinos are.
Smoke is. And a havoc launcher. heavy 2 s4 blast template. You dump troops, and you're still a threat to massed up infantry. It can help take some firepower off your terminators.


Just my thoughts.

[Bean]

I'll break this down:

I agree. One land raider is awful. I'd drop the raider, pump your termies squad to 7 or 8 dudes, with a couple power fists and some combi-meltas. They really are amazing. Then I'd just deep strike em or run them up behind the rhinos.
[[
I really like abbadon, because he is such a force multiplier in a unit of terminators. After you drop that LR, you should have the points for a DP. You can have your cake and eat it, too. Make him Slaanesh and give him lash. That'll help your teminators maul stuff quicker.


I routinely play a Raider for my Berserkers in an otherwise Rhino/Oblit list. I actually often get value out of it as both a transport and an anti-tank unit. It's obviously not as good as a loyalist Raider, but I think it's a reasonable pick. That said, your advice here combined with your advice below is a pretty reasonable idea. I would suggest bringing some personal icons on the plague marines if you plan to deepstrike--Abbadon and Termies need to come down close, and you really can't afford to have them mishap.



While oblits are good, they aren't the end-all-be-all of Chaos. Especially with the termies kitted with some anti-armour.


No, but they are one of the best four or five units in the book. You should pretty much always try to include some.



What? How often have you ever used a flamer more than once. It's always better as the combi-weapon. Combi-flamer on all your champs and one melta-gun and one plasma gun will go a very long ways to helping your army.


Yes on the flamer, no on the plasma. A combi-weapon (melta or flamer, honestly) is fine in pretty much any squad. Mixed plasma/melta squads are dumb. Take two of the same weapon in each squad--make sure they're actually good at what you're going to use them to do.



Smoke is. And a havoc launcher. heavy 2 s4 blast template. You dump troops, and you're still a threat to massed up infantry. It can help take some firepower off your terminators.


Smoke is free and you get it by default. It's not an upgrade.

Havoc launchers are too expensive for a vehicle that both is fairly fragile and wants to move at cruising speed most of the time. They're not the worst filler in the game, but you definitely shouldn't be trying to shoe-horn them in.

Straight-up, 35 point Rhinos are the way to go. Only take upgrades if you've really run out of other worthwhile filler. This list, without a third powerfist or combi-melta, isn't anywhere near the point where it should be spending points on Havoc Launchers.

[Tynskel]

I love that people ask 'how often have you used a flamer more than once?'.

I use them OFTEN. Shoot, Roast, Charge, wipeout, consolidate. Rinse, Repeat.

[L192837465]

Yes on the flamer, no on the plasma. A combi-weapon (melta or flamer, honestly) is fine in pretty much any squad. Mixed plasma/melta squads are dumb. Take two of the same weapon in each squad--make sure they're actually good at what you're going to use them to do.




So on this point, I've gotta make a point: Melta is good against everything, plasma is good against most.

Both are good against armour. Both are good against infantry.

You lose one shot per squad for the ability to kill a t4 thing outright, pop a LR, Leman Russ, etc. You do not lose any anti-infantry, as the plasma gun is usually overkill except against 2+ armour dudes, in which case it and the melta-gun perform great.

Not to mention drive-by melta-ing a tank from a rhino is hilarious.


I agree with you on most points about Rhinos, except I *LOVED* giving mine a combi-melta.
1) it's like, 5 points.
2) it has a second weapon for weapon destroyed results.
3) you remain a threat after your troops are out for very little additional investment.

If he's got 3 rhinos, I'd give two combi-meltas and one a combi-flamer.



I agree on the icons. I thought that was obligatory with a 400point unit DSing :p

[Bean]

So on this point, I've gotta make a point: Melta is good against everything, plasma is good against most.

Both are good against armour. Both are good against infantry.

You lose one shot per squad for the ability to kill a t4 thing outright, pop a LR, Leman Russ, etc. You do not lose any anti-infantry, as the plasma gun is usually overkill except against 2+ armour dudes, in which case it and the melta-gun perform great.

Not to mention drive-by melta-ing a tank from a rhino is hilarious.


I agree with you on most points about Rhinos, except I *LOVED* giving mine a combi-melta.
1) it's like, 5 points.
2) it has a second weapon for weapon destroyed results.
3) you remain a threat after your troops are out for very little additional investment.

If he's got 3 rhinos, I'd give two combi-meltas and one a combi-flamer.



I agree on the icons. I thought that was obligatory with a 400point unit DSing :p

Yeah, I like the combi-melta on the rhino better. Probably should have mentioned that.

Also, Abbadon + Terminators is well over 400 points =P

But yeah. Definitely should have those icons, and if you ditch the raider you have plenty of points for them. I still like the raider pretty well, though.

[L192837465]

Yeah, I like the combi-melta on the rhino better. Probably should have mentioned that.

Also, Abbadon + Terminators is well over 400 points =P

But yeah. Definitely should have those icons, and if you ditch the raider you have plenty of points for them. I still like the raider pretty well, though.

That's exactly the problem. When you put, say, Khorne Berzerkers in a LR, it's slightly intimidating, but not too terrible. The guys inside are just marines, and the threat is more evenly distributed around your army.

You drop ~500 points of terminators into that same LR, and all of a sudden you're looking at 800 points in one vehicle. That's a much jucy-er target, and minimizes the effect of the rest of the army from the point sink.

[Bean]

That's exactly the problem. When you put, say, Khorne Berzerkers in a LR, it's slightly intimidating, but not too terrible. The guys inside are just marines, and the threat is more evenly distributed around your army.

You drop ~500 points of terminators into that same LR, and all of a sudden you're looking at 800 points in one vehicle. That's a much jucy-er target, and minimizes the effect of the rest of the army from the point sink.

I definitely agree with that--and you'll note that my original advice was to not play Abbadon and a pile of terminators in a land raider, precisely because it is too much of an eggs-in-one-basket thing. It wasn't something the OP seemed willing to budge on, though, so I left it alone.

Playing some icons, dropping the raider, and deep-striking them, though, is a pretty reasonable suggestion, though.

[L192837465]

I definitely agree with that--and you'll note that my original advice was to not play Abbadon and a pile of terminators in a land raider, precisely because it is too much of an eggs-in-one-basket thing. It wasn't something the OP seemed willing to budge on, though, so I left it alone.

Playing some icons, dropping the raider, and deep-striking them, though, is a pretty reasonable suggestion, though.

Yeah. He must be in the same boat as me and bought a FW pre-heresy kit and wants to show it off. If that's the case, put 10 noise marines in it, and deep strike the termies anyways. Even though 4+abbadon isn't really quite enough to punch through stuff reliably while taking casualties.

[Bean]

Yeah. He must be in the same boat as me and bought a FW pre-heresy kit and wants to show it off. If that's the case, put 10 noise marines in it, and deep strike the termies anyways. Even though 4+abbadon isn't really quite enough to punch through stuff reliably while taking casualties.

Why noise marines? 'Zerkers are way better in that Raider--or even just plague marines, honestly.

[L192837465]

Why noise marines? 'Zerkers are way better in that Raider--or even just plague marines, honestly.

Zerkers can't take a charge. That LR gets popped, they're screwed. Noise marines have that glorious I5 at all times, plus the doom siren.

after that many points dropped in the termies, I'd say your cc is covered, your mobile firing platform is covered with the PM, and you need something that can take a charge and still fight back decently, while still being able to shoot well with tricks up the sleeve for objectives, which NM fill into very nicely.

Doom Siren = nightmares for marines in terrain on objectives. S5 AP3? No cover? sign me up.

[Bean]

Zerkers can't take a charge. That LR gets popped, they're screwed. Noise marines have that glorious I5 at all times, plus the doom siren.

after that many points dropped in the termies, I'd say your cc is covered, your mobile firing platform is covered with the PM, and you need something that can take a charge and still fight back decently, while still being able to shoot well with tricks up the sleeve for objectives, which NM fill into very nicely.

Doom Siren = nightmares for marines in terrain on objectives. S5 AP3? No cover? sign me up.

Actually, against almost all enemies, Berserkers perform better when being charged than Noise Marines do, thanks to their extra attack and extra weaponskill. I5 is nice and Berserkers are certainly much better on the charge than they are receiving a charge--but they're better than Noise Marines either way.

Noise marines may have the Doomblaster--and it is scary--but even scarier still to that squad-on-objective is getting charged by Berserkers--which is an option in every situation where your noise marines might have a worthwhile doom-siren shot anyway.

Berserkers are definitely the better choice for that raider. Of course, in this case, the OP might as well just put one of those Plague Marine squads in there, instead.

Consider a squad of assault marines charging either:

Noise Marines take 18 swings and 3 power weapon swings, killing about two marines. The marines then take 21 swings back and 3 power fist swings, killing 3 Noise Marines. Expected result: Noise Marines lose by one--and that's if the Marines don't get anyone with their pistol shots.

With those two extra marines, the Berserkers are about as likely to take four casualties as they are to take three--perhaps one more than the noise marines. But, in return, they take 27 swings and 4 power weapon swings--at WS 5. That's about four dead marines instead of two. Instead of losing combat, the Berserkers are likely to draw the combat or even win.

Berserkers are just better than Noise Marines at close combat, which is where the Raider-embarked unit should excel. Noise Marines are better at shooting, which isn't all that important for the guys in the Raider.

[BrokenWing]

"I bet someone posted a response."

Or they had an entire conversation =).

Lots to think about, will get back with another list as soon as I'm able.

[BrokenWing]

Also, some quick thoughts on the land raider stuff.

I love me some Land Raiders, but mostly I love Redeemers, bog standard Land Raiders I tend to think are far less effective than they should be. I took one because I wanted my nice assaulty unit to go somewhere. The idea of taking a bunch more with icons is an interesting one though. The only thing I like more than terminators is more of them.

[BrokenWing]

HQ


Grand Praetor Romulus (Abaddon)- 275

Elites

7 Praetorian Guard (Terminators) with lightning claws, mark of slaanesh, 3 with power fists and combi-meltas- 310


Troops:

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns, personal icon-295
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns, personal icon-295
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns, personal icon-295
-Dedicated Rhino-35

Heavy Support:

3 Obliterators- 225

Defiler, 2 extra ccw- 150

-1935


65 points left. I'm debating dropping all the champions with power fists in favor of adding something like a Daemon Prince or what have you. Not really sure how necessary those power fists are going to be and that's 40 points per squad.

I decided I liked the idea of deep striking the terminators in with icons, I think that could be all kinds of useful.

[L192837465]

HQ


Grand Praetor Romulus (Abaddon)- 275

Elites

7 Praetorian Guard (Terminators) with lightning claws, mark of slaanesh, 3 with power fists and combi-meltas- 310


Troops:

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns, personal icon-295
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns, personal icon-295
-Dedicated Rhino-35

10 Plague Marines, Champion, Power Fist, Two Melta Guns, personal icon-295
-Dedicated Rhino-35

Heavy Support:

3 Obliterators- 225

Defiler, 2 extra ccw- 150

-1935


65 points left. I'm debating dropping all the champions with power fists in favor of adding something like a Daemon Prince or what have you. Not really sure how necessary those power fists are going to be and that's 40 points per squad.

I decided I liked the idea of deep striking the terminators in with icons, I think that could be all kinds of useful.

Keep those powerfists. DP would be great, but having 3 useless squads isn't.

[BrokenWing]

Lol, that's fair. Still no idea what to spend the 65 on. The Chaos Codex doesn't have alot of "oh yeah, I'll just get one of those." selections for less than 80 points.

[Bean]

You can get another pair of terminators for 65 points. One with a combi-melta and a power sword, one with just a power sword and combi-bolter. They're not great, but a few extra wounds in there can't hurt--and neither can another combi-melta.

[BrokenWing]

True

[Cheese]

Some things I've got to point out in some previous arguments, mainly L192whatever.
The Havoc Launcher does not fire 2 shots, it fires 1 twin-linked shot. The combi-melta is not 5 points, it's 10. I don't think that's worth it at all on a vehicle that will die incredibly quickly. The extra weapon destroyed is pointless. The chances of your opponent getting 3 Weapon Destroyed/Immobilised results before just wrecking you is highly unlikely. With the combi-melta, if they immobilise you, you just wasted 10 points.
Berzerkers are better than Noise Marines. Anyone that has played Chaos for even 2 months could tell you that. How can Berzerkers not take a charge? They can survive getting charged better than your average marine due to having way more attacks and extra WS. They even have a better chance than Noise Marines, despite the Initiative 5. They may be going first, but they're getting 1 Attack each and possibly 3 Power Weapon attacks from the champ as opposed to 3 attacks per Berzerker and 3 Fist attacks from the Champ striking at the same time (except for the champ).

OP, those Terminators will not work as much as you want them to. You're Deep Striking an incredibly expensive Close Combat unit. That is the worst idea ever. Run them in units of 3-4 all with Combi-meltas and nothing else. As you have them, they're easily avoidable and if you're unlucky enough not to be able to DS near any icons you may find your extremely expensive unit that WILL NOT make their points back completely dead. They're also too slow to make their points back ever.

Drop Abbadon. He is for Apocalypse only. Get a Daemon Prince instead.

[Denzark]

Chaos Landraiders.

No Machine Spirit. Less room inside. But when you make them possessed thery are awesome! Math-hammer what you need to pen a LR. Then factor in the fact that it ignores (melta excepting) 1 in 3 results on the table.

Yes it makes shooting crapper but with TL you have a 75% chance of a hit anyway.

[Cheese]

But the LR itself without being possessed is crap at shooting. It doesn't have enough AT to work as a tank hunter, it doesn't fire enough shots to do anything to hordes and it still won't do that well against MEQ and TEQ. It's also too expensive to be a transport. It just doesn't hold up to the loyalist marines Raiders and should be left on the shelf.