Storm Ravens in Apocalypse

[dannyat2460]

Hi my fellow BolS users quick question on storm ravens in Apocalypse, Do they have the 'Flyer' and 'Hover Mode' special rules?

I know in apocalypse you can normaly make your own rules up but this is a Games Workshop organised event and as such cant use my own datasheets ext.

So can you please include any and all referances if i can actualy use those rules

Thanks

[Nungunz]

Nope, Stormravens are still just Fast Skimmers.

[Majorcrash]

I cant quote page an verse, but i do believe that their is an FAQ, that make certain "skimmers" flyers. Including the stormraven. Also various formations give certain other more tradiinal skimmers the flyer rule, IE hawks and falcons.

[Gotthammer]

Page 34 of WD 373:

"Using Stormravens in Apocalypse
You'll notice that we've given the Stormravens here the Flyers and Hover special rules. This is to represent their use in the larger battles represented using the Apocalypse scenario. If you plan on using Stormravens from Codex: Blood Angels in your games of Apocalypse then counting them as flyers is entirely appropriate."

Games Workshop's own opinion is that making them flyers is fine, so quote this at the store if they don't like it.

[dannyat2460]

Page 34 of WD 373:

"Using Stormravens in Apocalypse
You'll notice that we've given the Stormravens here the Flyers and Hover special rules. This is to represent their use in the larger battles represented using the Apocalypse scenario. If you plan on using Stormravens from Codex: Blood Angels in your games of Apocalypse then counting them as flyers is entirely appropriate."

Games Workshop's own opinion is that making them flyers is fine, so quote this at the store if they don't like it.

Thankyou very much and i know which white dwarf your talking about just finding it out now :(

[Tynskel]

Really, any Apocalypse questions should be directed to the person running the game. The rules for apoc are designed such that you actively participate in changing the rules.

It isn't an issue if you can or cannot, written or not, it is an issue whether your organizer wants the game to be played one way or another.

[Archon Charybdis]

Tynskel really hit it on the nose, it's much more about what the event organizer wants to allow. Apocalypse doesn't transition perfectly into 5th edition, and if you want any semblance of balance it requires a fair bit of house ruling. And frankly, if you do want balance, giving an already potent vehicle the flyer rules at no extra charge will definitely not be balanced. Same holds for that Vend/Valk formation, official datasheet or not. A flyer is significantly more survivable and a much more dangerous gunboat than a vanilla fast skimmer, and should come with a premium cost attached to those rules.

[wkz]

Tynskel really hit it on the nose, it's much more about what the event organizer wants to allow. Apocalypse doesn't transition perfectly into 5th edition, and if you want any semblance of balance it requires a fair bit of house ruling. And frankly, if you do want balance, giving an already potent vehicle the flyer rules at no extra charge will definitely not be balanced. Same holds for that Vend/Valk formation, official datasheet or not. A flyer is significantly more survivable and a much more dangerous gunboat than a vanilla fast skimmer, and should come with a premium cost attached to those rules.

Then again, when str Ds are flying all over the table with impunity, the survivability of flyers are needed for some of the vehicles... We cannot shout "IMBA" when an entire airwing of Valkyries can be vaporized, and with a generous scatter allowance too (read as: top down area covered by a Valkyrie is HUGE).

[Archon Charybdis]

Then again, when str Ds are flying all over the table with impunity, the survivability of flyers are needed for some of the vehicles... We cannot shout "IMBA" when an entire airwing of Valkyries can be vaporized, and with a generous scatter allowance too (read as: top down area covered by a Valkyrie is HUGE).

That's assuming there are Destroyers all over the board, which depends entirely on the group and the person organizing. That said, even if Destroyers are plentiful, all of the ones I can think of (besides potentially the Gaze of Mork) are blast weapons. By just saying Valks and Storm Ravens can be flyers for free, you're effectively making them immune to D weapons, significantly more resilient, and able to fire all of their weapons anywhere on the board-- all for no extra points.

[wkz]

That's assuming there are Destroyers all over the board, which depends entirely on the group and the person organizing. That said, even if Destroyers are plentiful, all of the ones I can think of (besides potentially the Gaze of Mork) are blast weapons. By just saying Valks and Storm Ravens can be flyers for free, you're effectively making them immune to D weapons, significantly more resilient, and able to fire all of their weapons anywhere on the board-- all for no extra points.
Here's a few interesting questions I would like to ask:

- Are flyers immune to D weapons? Are flyers immune to blast weapons which has not scattered?

- Flyers will still be affected by Str8/9 weapons, correct? Apoc games are also known for the amount of Str 8~10 weapons being flung left and right...

- you will have to make a model a flyer by "buying" that through an apoc formation now, wouldn't you?

- Also: quite a lot of "new" GW models have older Imperial Armor rules... which declares them as flyers (see: Valkyrie, sister of the Vulture flyer). Would you then deny their "default" flyer-capable chassis from flying?

In the end, Mr T has it correct: Apocalypse games are "Story mode" game, to play it competitively is downright impossible (and expensive too). For each game of Apocalypse, there should be a "Game Master" or similar third party authority to hammer out what is allowed and disallowed, or the game would automatically be a bust, bogged down by rules arguments...

[Bean]

Here's a few interesting questions I would like to ask:

- Are flyers immune to D weapons? Are flyers immune to blast weapons which has not scattered?

- Flyers will still be affected by Str8/9 weapons, correct? Apoc games are also known for the amount of Str 8~10 weapons being flung left and right...

- you will have to make a model a flyer by "buying" that through an apoc formation now, wouldn't you?

- Also: quite a lot of "new" GW models have older Imperial Armor rules... which declares them as flyers (see: Valkyrie, sister of the Vulture flyer). Would you then deny their "default" flyer-capable chassis from flying?

In the end, Mr T has it correct: Apocalypse games are "Story mode" game, to play it competitively is downright impossible (and expensive too). For each game of Apocalypse, there should be a "Game Master" or similar third party authority to hammer out what is allowed and disallowed, or the game would automatically be a bust, bogged down by rules arguments...

Flyers are immune to weapons which don't roll to hit. This includes all blast and template weapons whether they scatter or not. Since almost all Destroyer weapons are blast weapons, this means that flyers are immune to most destroyer weapons. Notable exceptions are the Necron Pylon and the main gun on the Silver Tower.

[Gir]

That's assuming there are Destroyers all over the board, which depends entirely on the group and the person organizing. That said, even if Destroyers are plentiful, all of the ones I can think of (besides potentially the Gaze of Mork) are blast weapons. By just saying Valks and Storm Ravens can be flyers for free, you're effectively making them immune to D weapons, significantly more resilient, and able to fire all of their weapons anywhere on the board-- all for no extra points.

You do loose the ability to drop troops.

Also, Necron pylons make a MESS of flyers (Heavy 3, strD AA)

[Archon Charybdis]

Are flyers immune to blast weapons which has not scattered?

Already been covered by Bean, but yes. Unless it has the AA special rule, a blast weapon cannot hit a flyer.


Flyers will still be affected by Str8/9 weapons, correct? Apoc games are also known for the amount of Str 8~10 weapons being flung left and right...

I tend to think of this as the Apocalypse Fallacy--there's a whole bunch of big awesome stuff you can field, so nothing should be a problem. Except, everything scales up for your opponent too, which means there will also significantly more targets your anti-vehicle weapons need to be shooting at. You could just focus fire on one 200pt flyer until it's dead, but it's flyer special rules give it a significant advantage and it'll take a inordinate number of points to deal with.


- you will have to make a model a flyer by "buying" that through an apoc formation now, wouldn't you?

No, and that's been my entire point of contention. Simply declaring your fast skimmers to be flyers makes about as much sense as declaring your ordnance to be a Destroyer--its a significant advantage that you should pay for.

One self-correction, upon checking I found out the Bellerephon formation for Vendettas actually costs 150pts and grants an additional asset, which seems reasonable to me. I had been told by the one guy I've seen use it that it didn't cost anything and simply made Valks/Vends into flyers.


- Also: quite a lot of "new" GW models have older Imperial Armor rules... which declares them as flyers (see: Valkyrie, sister of the Vulture flyer). Would you then deny their "default" flyer-capable chassis from flying?

If they want to pay the old IA points cost for it, of course not. I simply object to granting a model significant advantages without a commensurate points increase.


You do loose the ability to drop troops.

Also, Necron pylons make a MESS of flyers (Heavy 3, strD AA)

You lose the ability to deploy them normally, but you can still make a drop run, which is safer really than Skies of Blood. I did forget about the Pylon though, that is nasty for Flyers.

[Tynskel]

Most IA point costs are way too high.


Also, depending on who you play with: I have played games where jumping. Out of a storm raven/ thunder hawk, because of the assault ramp rules, allows you to charge. Makes Dante with a sanguinary guard squad pretty sick!

I have seen Dante win a 100k point game because of that move. 400 points! But thats what I like about apoc, it allows these epic characters to be epic!

[Gir]

You lose the ability to deploy them normally, but you can still make a drop run, which is safer really than Skies of Blood. I did forget about the Pylon though, that is nasty for Flyers.

My friends have always played you can't make dropping runs unless your in hover mode for this very reason.