Grey Knights Tactica

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

So I read Mat Ward's Tactica on Grey Knights in the latest White Dwarf - it's a good starting point for those who are looking to build an army and have some idea how to best use it, but I reckon there are more in depth strategies hidden away.

One I thought of using is having a Purgator Squad with a Psycannon load out advancing behind a tank - using it as a shield but using Astral Aim to attack units 'through' the Razorback/Rhino/Land Raider.

Anyone have any other cool ideas?

[Mr.Pickelz]

precarious use of Summing psyker power and skulls to teleport your squads around the board.:D

attaching IC's (HQ's) to squads with a banner, so you can use the banner to pop the FW while having the IC pop Hammerhand and such.:cool:

if you really want to be crazy, buy a land raider and the Warp Stabilzation Field for it, allowing your Libby to summon the sucker, nothing says, "Surprise!" quite like a crusader/redeemer DS with a full squad, of doom and destruction, in it...;)

[CrimsonTurkey]

Especially if the libby is in Mordrak's squad and deep strikes on turn one wherever you want him and the land raider.

[DarkLink]

Read Way of the Water Warrior (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214). Done.

Edit: What does Mat Ward recommend, btw? Not everyone wastes their money on White Dwarf.

[Bean]

Read Way of the Water Warrior (http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214). Done.

Edit: What does Mat Ward recommend, btw? Not everyone wastes their money on White Dwarf.

This article was amusing in its day; now it's just dated beyond the point where it's anywhere near useful. It was pretty bad when he failed to really update it for fourth edition (it still routinely discusses LOS manipulation tricks that haven't been legal for years) but now it references the wrong codex, too. Nothing but the very most basic "this is how you make decisions" is even close to accurate--and, again, since his original decisions tended to revolve around LOS manipulations that no longer work, even that really needs a revamp.

If Silent Requiem ever gets around to re-writing this based on the current rules, it might be worth suggesting to someone. As is, though, it's basically worthless.

[DarkLink]

There are sections and specific tactics that don't work anymore, but there are still a lot of concepts that are perfectly valid.

Honestly, I think the best way for anyone to learn to play Grey Knights is to go back to the old codex for a year or two until you can win competitive games, then play the new codex. Even though the units and specifics have changed, the concepts and strategies you'll learn will still be very useful. The thing I like most about the new codex is that it plays exactly the same as the old one, yet actually has plenty of good units.

[Bean]

There are sections and specific tactics that don't work anymore, but there are still a lot of concepts that are perfectly valid.

Honestly, I think the best way for anyone to learn to play Grey Knights is to go back to the old codex for a year or two until you can win competitive games, then play the new codex. Even though the units and specifics have changed, the concepts and strategies you'll learn will still be very useful. The thing I like most about the new codex is that it plays exactly the same as the old one, yet actually has plenty of good units.

There are a very small handful of very general concepts that are still perfectly valid. Wading through those walls of text for the handful of worthwhile nuggets that haven't been completely obviated by new rules isn't something I would suggest to anyone--especially since all the general advice is extremely basic stuff. Sometimes people need to learn the basic stuff, but that article is no longer either the right place to do that or the right place to learn about Grey Knights.

As for using the old Codex, it's true that the two play very similarly, but there's no point in going back--anything you can learn from the old codex you'll learn just as easily from this one, and you won't get old stats and rules stuck in your head in the process. That really seems like bad advice, too, DarkLink.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I'm loving the Mordrak/Librarian 'Here Boy!' Land Raider surprise - I think that has to happen for sure...

[Bean]

I'm loving the Mordrak/Librarian 'Here Boy!' Land Raider surprise - I think that has to happen for sure...

Yeah, but getting that land raider to arrive safely is a bit of a challenge. It has an enormous footprint, and has to be placed within 6" of the librarian. If you're anywhere near enemy models, it becomes all too easy to scatter on top of something and mishap, which has the potential to destroy the land raider and the guys inside. Remember that the Teleport Homer you can put on that Librarian won't help the Summoned Land Raider.

The best thing Mordrak can really do for a librarian is position him somewhere where he gets a good first-turn Warp Rift.

[DarkLink]

There are a very small handful of very general concepts that are still perfectly valid.

If by small handful you mean most of the article. The important stuff here is the general concepts that have nothing to do with specific rules. Just skip the armylist review of the old codex and almost the entire article is completely comparable with 5th. Even the battle reports are still useful as long as you realize it was 4th ed. Some inexperienced players might get a bit confused there, so they can skip it until they know 5th ed rules better.



That really seems like bad advice, too, DarkLink.

To the contrary, though I did say it in jest. With the old codex, you have to play perfectly to win. The new codex lets you get sloppy and make mistakes, or play with tactics and strategies that will only win against certain armies that are weak against Grey Knights already. I've seen a lot of battle reports from plenty of very good players who are new to Grey Knights making very subtle mistakes that hurt them.

[Bean]

If by small handful you mean most of the article. The important stuff here is the general concepts that have nothing to do with specific rules. Just skip the armylist review of the old codex and almost the entire article is completely comparable with 5th. Even the battle reports are still useful as long as you realize it was 4th ed. Some inexperienced players might get a bit confused there, so they can skip it until they know 5th ed rules better.

Yeah, I just read through it. More than half of the content it specific to fourth edition or the old GK codex, and all of the stuff that isn't specific to outdated rules is, again, extremely generalized.

Again, if you're looking for "how to play the game" basics and you're willing to wade through more worthless stuff than there is worthwhile stuff, this isn't terrible article (though, for that sort of stuff, I've seen better articles).

For newer players, of course, this would be a disaster--routine un-explicated references to old rules are a recipe for confusion. For more experienced players, frankly, I wouldn't expect this sort of very general advice to be novel.



To the contrary, though I did say it in jest. With the old codex, you have to play perfectly to win. The new codex lets you get sloppy and make mistakes, or play with tactics and strategies that will only win against certain armies that are weak against Grey Knights already. I've seen a lot of battle reports from plenty of very good players who are new to Grey Knights making very subtle mistakes that hurt them.

You don't have to play with an army that only wins if you play it perfectly to learn how to play an army perfectly. Again, anything you can learn with the old book you can learn with the new one just as easily--except the rules in the old book which are no longer relevant. If you just learn with the new book, you'll learn all the same stuff, just as easily, but you'll learn the right rules instead of the wrong ones.

No, Darklink, this bizarre obsession with older versions is, frankly, not a good basis for advice. Neither Silent-requiem's article nor playing with the old codex are good mechanisms for learning how to play the current Grey Knights army.

[DarkLink]

Are you reading the same thing as I am? Because I'm seeing plenty of useful stuff and very little that is actually 4th ed specific.

The tactica has 11 sections, not counting the table of contents.
Post 02: Combat and the Four Elements.
An intro to his idea of the four elements, quick and useful for beginners.

Post 03: Why Play Reactively.
Just a quick intro.

Post 04: Analysis of Grey Knight special rules.
Specific to the old DH codex, so go ahead and skip it. Though it actually does highlight an interesting thought process, so not useless.

Post 05: Analysis of Grey Knight unit choices.
Specific to the old DH codex, so go ahead and skip it. Though it actually does highlight an interesting thought process, so not useless.

Post 06: 1000 point List, Evolution of the List, Massaen.
Specific to the old DH codex, so go ahead and skip it. Though it actually does highlight an interesting thought process, so not useless.

Post 07: Fighting the Four Elements.
Not rule specific, and while it is generalized it is very useful for less experienced players to decide how to react to an opponent's army. More experienced players will learn to do something like this instinctively.

Post 08: 7 Habits of Highly Effective Gamers.
This has nothing to do with specific rules, and more with how to play a competitive game. Very useful for someone who hasn't learned to carefully consider their moves on their own already, and the stuff mentioned here is something that most competitive players do now.

Post 10: Common Tactical Manouvers.
About half of this is either useless or irrelevant due to rule changes. The other half are useful but basic tactics that you can find or figure out pretty easily.

Post 11: Who's the Beatdown?
Probably the single most useful concept in this whole tactica, and extremely useful for any army in the game. Perfectly relevant regardless of edition, or even game.

Post 12: Battle Reports.
These battle reports do follow 4th ed rules, but if you're getting caught up on the specifics of the rules you're missing what's important that is going on here. The strategy and approach to each battle is the important thing. While I can see how this might confuse a noob, anyone who can differentiate 4th from 5th ed rules can get a lot out of these reports, as they are effective examples of the strategy and concepts discussed earlier.


Seems to be plenty of relevant stuff in there to me. And while you complain that it is too generalized, that's really the only way something like this could be written. There are no real hard-cut answers with this style of play. It's very reactive and instinctual, and requires a lot of individual though and experience. Giving specific answers would not only be extremely difficult, but would get too caught up in the unimportant details as opposed to the idea of stepping back and assessing what you need to do to win.



No, Darklink, this bizarre obsession with older versions is, frankly, not a good basis for advice. Neither Silent-requiem's article nor playing with the old codex are good mechanisms for learning how to play the current Grey Knights army.

Dude, I was freakin' joking about playing the old codex for a few years before playing the new one. That's what "said in jest" means.

[Wildcard]

Take inquisitor hq so you can take henchmen.. equip them anyway you like but get chimera for them.

take 10 paladins, others loadout is irrelevant, but 4 psycannons.
-> combat squad paladins so that there are 4 psycannons in other group.

put the psycannon paladins in the chimera -> cruise away!

relentless means 4 x 4 str7 ap4 rending from the hatch each turn even if the chimera moved, as a bonus your paladins are practically immune even to massed small arms fire if you angle your transport right ^^
And on top of that you still got your transport weapons to fire, even on different target if you like..

One cool use of this: Use the psycannons to pop a transport, then fire the passengers with 2x heavy flamers from chimera.. priceless :)

[TheRise]

I'm loving the Mordrak/Librarian 'Here Boy!' Land Raider surprise - I think that has to happen for sure...

Why not put a couple of IC's in one unit to just carry on grabbing to one specific place.
Or put one on either side inside some sort of cover, then attarct so you have some coming from either side.

[Bean]

Are you reading the same thing as I am? Because I'm seeing plenty of useful stuff and very little that is actually 4th ed specific.

The tactica has 11 sections, not counting the table of contents.
Post 02: Combat and the Four Elements.
An intro to his idea of the four elements, quick and useful for beginners.

Post 03: Why Play Reactively.
Just a quick intro.

Post 04: Analysis of Grey Knight special rules.
Specific to the old DH codex, so go ahead and skip it. Though it actually does highlight an interesting thought process, so not useless.

Post 05: Analysis of Grey Knight unit choices.
Specific to the old DH codex, so go ahead and skip it. Though it actually does highlight an interesting thought process, so not useless.

Post 06: 1000 point List, Evolution of the List, Massaen.
Specific to the old DH codex, so go ahead and skip it. Though it actually does highlight an interesting thought process, so not useless.

Post 07: Fighting the Four Elements.
Not rule specific, and while it is generalized it is very useful for less experienced players to decide how to react to an opponent's army. More experienced players will learn to do something like this instinctively.

Post 08: 7 Habits of Highly Effective Gamers.
This has nothing to do with specific rules, and more with how to play a competitive game. Very useful for someone who hasn't learned to carefully consider their moves on their own already, and the stuff mentioned here is something that most competitive players do now.

Post 10: Common Tactical Manouvers.
About half of this is either useless or irrelevant due to rule changes. The other half are useful but basic tactics that you can find or figure out pretty easily.

Post 11: Who's the Beatdown?
Probably the single most useful concept in this whole tactica, and extremely useful for any army in the game. Perfectly relevant regardless of edition, or even game.

Post 12: Battle Reports.
These battle reports do follow 4th ed rules, but if you're getting caught up on the specifics of the rules you're missing what's important that is going on here. The strategy and approach to each battle is the important thing. While I can see how this might confuse a noob, anyone who can differentiate 4th from 5th ed rules can get a lot out of these reports, as they are effective examples of the strategy and concepts discussed earlier.


So, that's ten sections: about five and a half are specifically about old rules (though a little bit of value can still be extrapolated from the battle reports). Then, of course, section 2 and 7 are basically the same thing: focused on a highly unoriginal conceit of extremely dubious value.

Section 8 is valuable, but, again, extremely generalized (how to play the game) advice. This is perfectly legitimate, but not really particular to playing Grey Knights.

About half of section 10 is valuable.

Section 11, as you point out, is very nice (but, again, not specific to playing Grey Knights at all).

So, yeah. That's basically exactly how I described it. Less than half is relevant to the current rules-set. Pretty much all of the rest is very generalized and not GK specific. In other words, if it were pared down, it could be a great primer on basic war-game-decision-making strategies. As it is, though, you basically have to wade through a bunch of worthless stuff to get to the good parts--and when you do, they're not really about Grey Knights at all. That renders it pretty straight-forwardly a poor GK tactics article.



Seems to be plenty of relevant stuff in there to me. And while you complain that it is too generalized, that's really the only way something like this could be written. There are no real hard-cut answers with this style of play. It's very reactive and instinctual, and requires a lot of individual though and experience. Giving specific answers would not only be extremely difficult, but would get too caught up in the unimportant details as opposed to the idea of stepping back and assessing what you need to do to win.


Again, that's all fine, but it's just not really a good Grey Knights tactics article. It's a good war-gaming primer buried in a pile of outdated rules. That's something, but it isn't anything like what you're making it out to be.



Dude, I was freakin' joking about playing the old codex for a few years before playing the new one. That's what "said in jest" means.

Fair.

[Bean]

Take inquisitor hq so you can take henchmen.. equip them anyway you like but get chimera for them.

take 10 paladins, others loadout is irrelevant, but 4 psycannons.
-> combat squad paladins so that there are 4 psycannons in other group.

put the psycannon paladins in the chimera -> cruise away!

relentless means 4 x 4 str7 ap4 rending from the hatch each turn even if the chimera moved, as a bonus your paladins are practically immune even to massed small arms fire if you angle your transport right ^^
And on top of that you still got your transport weapons to fire, even on different target if you like..

One cool use of this: Use the psycannons to pop a transport, then fire the passengers with 2x heavy flamers from chimera.. priceless :)

This is actually a pretty amusing idea. A little bit involved (that pile of paladins is a little pricy for guys that aren't troops) but it's definitely worth remembering that the terminator psycannon can fire from the chimaera on the move.

[Wildcard]

@Bean: Well, you could change the paladins to a purgation squad with 4 psycannons, making it alot cheaper, but, then you would ofc lose 2 shots / psycannon + rending when the chimera moved.. although its still not bad to have 12 armor to cover your troops against massed enemy small arms fire + still be able to pop 8x str7 ap4 shots + 2x from stormbolter + the chimeras own weapons..

[DarkLink]

What happens when the Chimera is shaken? And what henchmen unit did you take that you can afford to stick somewhere else?

I think that is something useful to keep in mind, just in case the right situation pops up, but I wouldn't build an army planning to do that every game.


Again, that's all fine, but it's just not really a good Grey Knights tactics article. It's a good war-gaming primer buried in a pile of outdated rules. That's something, but it isn't anything like what you're making it out to be.


The whole point of his article is describing a playstyle that fits Grey Knights perfectly, and all the relevant things relating to that have little to do with what edition they came from. There's a bit of useful stuff for beginners, but most of it is for people who kinda know what they're doing already but are still learning.

Now, the new codex is quite a bit more flexible than the old one, but how I play has remained essentially unchanged compared to the last codex. The difference is really only in the details. I have found the Way of the Water Warrior to be very useful when I was learning to play, and most people that I've talked to about it agreed.

It might not cover specific GK tactics that the internet likes to talk about, and something covering the new units and the like would be extremely useful for new players, but for someone who already knows the basics I feel this is still a useful article.

[Bean]

Wildcard: Yeah, I was thinking maybe Purifiers, too. A little less effective on the move, but a lot less expensive.


What happens when the Chimera is shaken? And what henchmen unit did you take that you can afford to stick somewhere else?

Well, they can disembark and still shoot just fine if necessary, and Henchmen (some combination of assassins and crusaders) make a great, cheap combat unit to stick in a Raider or Raven, so there's certainly room for a spare chimaera in there, somewhere. Personally, I'm never going to do this, 'cause I prefer straight GK aesthetically, but combatty henchmen units in storm ravens aren't a bad buy and a Chimaera is a good transport for a four-psycannon-purifier-combat squad. It's worth remembering.



I think that is something useful to keep in mind, just in case the right situation pops up, but I wouldn't build an army planning to do that every game.


If I were inclined to play that selection of units anyway, I would probably anticipate using this disposition fairly routinely. It certainly isn't the be-all-end-all of army building, though.



The whole point of his article is describing a playstyle that fits Grey Knights perfectly, and all the relevant things relating to that have little to do with what edition they came from. There's a bit of useful stuff for beginners, but most of it is for people who kinda know what they're doing already but are still learning.

Now, the new codex is quite a bit more flexible than the old one, but how I play has remained essentially unchanged compared to the last codex. The difference is really only in the details. I have found the Way of the Water Warrior to be very useful when I was learning to play, and most people that I've talked to about it agreed.

It might not cover specific GK tactics that the internet likes to talk about, and something covering the new units and the like would be extremely useful for new players, but for someone who already knows the basics I feel this is still a useful article.

Fair. You have to agree that it would be a lot better--more accessible and more useful--if he took the time to update it, or even just to cut out the bits that are specific to the old rule-sets.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, I don't even know if he plays anymore. As far as I know, Silent Requiem hasn't posted anything in a while, and as far as I can see all of the tacticas and reviews are from bandwagon players. Were it not finals week I'd put something up myself, as it's obviously something I've thought about a lot since the new codex came out. A unit review at the least would be nice for new players, and fairly straight forward to write up. An actual tactica would be quite a bit more work.




I've thought about trying the steal-a-chimera thing to make Crowe work, taking some DCA and putting them in a Raven or something. Then I'm like "why would I take Crowe instead of a Librarian or a Grand Master or Coteaz or a Xenos Inquisitor with Grenades or a Malleus Inquisitor with a Psycannon" so it became a moot point. Crowe sucks because not only does he suck, but he sucks. And on top of sucking he has a massive opportunity cost in taking up an HQ slot. Purifiers are good, but not that good. And I've come to like the Librarian's flexibility too much as compared to a Grand Master, and taking both is too expensive, meaning my options for making Purifiers scoring is pretty limited.

[Bean]

Yeah, I don't even know if he plays anymore. As far as I know, Silent Requiem hasn't posted anything in a while, and as far as I can see all of the tacticas and reviews are from bandwagon players. Were it not finals week I'd put something up myself, as it's obviously something I've thought about a lot since the new codex came out. A unit review at the least would be nice for new players, and fairly straight forward to write up. An actual tactica would be quite a bit more work.




I've thought about trying the steal-a-chimera thing to make Crowe work, taking some DCA and putting them in a Raven or something. Then I'm like "why would I take Crowe instead of a Librarian or a Grand Master or Coteaz or a Xenos Inquisitor with Grenades or a Malleus Inquisitor with a Psycannon" so it became a moot point. Crowe sucks because not only does he suck, but he sucks. And on top of sucking he has a massive opportunity cost in taking up an HQ slot. Purifiers are good, but not that good. And I've come to like the Librarian's flexibility too much as compared to a Grand Master, and taking both is too expensive, meaning my options for making Purifiers scoring is pretty limited.

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Crowe. I would like to try a librarian, but we've been playing Draigowing, which I actually like a lot more than I expected to at first. I love Draigo. It seems odd, but he has routinely proven worthwhile, even for his massive point cost. The Storm Shield, Eternal Warrior, and fourth wound mean that he can take hits from lascannons and meltas and whatnot that would otherwise be gibbing paladins and basically just shrug them off. He routinely saves four or five paladins a game, and almost always gets to hit something as well. He does something that a normal GM or Librarian just can't replicate and that is important in his army list. So, I haven't really bothered with other HQs yet.

[DarkLink]

Here's some stuff on Strike Squads and Terminators:


Strike Squads
The most efficient shooting in the codex. You get bodies, storm bolters and psycannons at a price that makes everyone else jealous. The fact that you get power weapons (even on a plain MEQ statline), warp quake, deepstrike and hammerhand are just icing. These guys are what Tactical squads wish they were. They can move and shoot (so long as you never, ever take a psilencer), they can assault reasonably well, and they can shoot extremely well. Combined with the ability to deepstrike where you will and hide them in a Rhino, and these are one of the most flexible units in the game.

These guys are not an assault unit. Do not try and make them one. You’ll just end up spending a ton of points on 10 Marines in power armor. Not worth it. Take the minimum to do what you need, which usually means 1 Hammer in 10 guys and that’s it. The reason you’re taking Strike Squads over other units is efficiency. You get more psycannon/stormbolters per point than anywhere else, and they just happen to bring some decent CC with them. Giving a Strike Squad a ton of upgrades defeats their purpose.

There are pretty much two ways to go here. You can take a full 10-man unit, with 2 psycannons, psybolts and a hammer. I wouldn’t take more upgrades than that, pretty much ever. And keep in mind that the hammer and psybolts are optional here. What you’re getting is 2 psycannons (always psycannons, never anything else), 8 storm bolters (possibly str 5), and a good number of force weapon attacks.

Alternatively, you can take 5-6 dudes with a psycannon. They can move and shoot effectively, let you split your firepower very well, and can contribute to assaults (just don’t let them get assaulted). They’re a relatively small threat, so they’ll be relatively ignored, and you can maneuver them to take objectives or mess with the enemy without having to devote 300 points to that particular goal. Just be careful about things like Mephiston flying up and eating them alive. Note I didn’t mention psybolts. That’s because psybolts are only worth it on large squads. Don’t take psybolts on anything less than 7 Storm Bolters.

In both cases, always always always take a Rhino or Razorback. Both work well, as a Rhino will hide and move your guys really well while a Razorback provides extra firepower at the small cost of making you footslog if you want to shoot psycannons.

And in case you didn’t get the hint about psycannons, ALWAYS TAKE PSYCANNONS. NEVER TAKE INCINERATORS OR PSILENCERS. I don’t think I can make that any clearer. Yes, Incinerators are cool. You’ll probably get to shoot them once, maybe twice a game, whereas a psycannon will get more hits overall, and is str 7 with rending. Psycannons can pop armor from 24”, Incinerators can’t. Incinerators are good, but Psycannons are just so much better, and cheaper to boot. And psilencers are a joke. They’re horrible, especially on non-Terminators. A Storm Bolter and NFW is always better than a psilencer, and a Psycannon is always twice as good as that. Always.


Terminators
These guys are the opposite of GKSS. While you take GKSS for great shooting and ok CC, you take Terminators for great CC, good shooting and lots of durability. I have routinely had 10 man GKT units take a full game’s worth of fire from 2000pt armies and survive. Between shaking enemy vehicles, cover and killing whatever assaults you, these guys are hard to kill.

Do take NFW upgrades on these guys. Falchions are awesome for their +2A, Halberds are the default choice, and take 1 Hammer per 5 guys always. I would rather kill my opponents than be forced to take a slightly better invulnerable save so keep the swords to a minimum. It’s not a bad idea to take 1-2 swords to absorb power fist attacks, though. A stave might be worth it in larger units, I’m planning on playtesting that idea as so far the only thing that’s been able to kill my 10 terminators deathstar was CC units with lots of rending/power weapons, and only genestealers have been able to actually win combat.

The Brotherhood Banner is a tricky choice. It’s only really worth it in large units, and oftentimes your opponent will put so much fire into your Terminators that you won’t be a ‘large’ unit by the time you reach combat. I would save the Banner upgrade for last, if you happen to have some points left over. A full unit of 10 guys with a banner is brutal, though, so if you do have the points don't be afraid to spend them.

As for shooting upgrades, same psybolt advice as for GKSS, and always take psycannons. Terminators are less mobile* than power armor dudes because of the lack of transport, so Incinerators aren’t so hot, plus psycannons are better once again. And even though you can at least move and shoot psilencers, they’re still horrible. They can’t touch vehicles, and psycannons will do more wounds than psilencers against most anything.

An important thing to mention is that several GK HQs are in Terminator armor, meaning you can’t put them in a Rhino with the GKSS. That means taking a unit of Terminators to hide them with. I think this alone makes at least one unit of Terminators an almost default choice.

*GKSS/Purifiers should always have a transport, always. Even if you don’t plan on using it much. Terminators, however, can only be carried in Storm Ravens and Land Raiders, neither of which are that great of choices. I’ll go into that later, but long story short they’re too constraining and suffer from eggs-in-one-basket syndrome. Note that they can be carried in Chimeras (yes, it is legal, it always has been and there is absolutely no reason to expect that GW will change that), meaning it might be worth sitting a henchmen unit on an objective and hijacking their Chimera. I wouldn’t plan around that, but it’s a nice option to have to get a good turn or two of extra movement at an opportune time.

[jeffersonian000]

What are peoples thoughts on the Ghostwing? At 1750ps (the common point value for tourneys at my venue), I'm running:

Mordrak + Ghosts with an attached Librarian + Homer, for a 1st turn no scatter, "put them where I want them" unit.

2x 10-man GKT squad with psycannons and enough different weapons so that each model is unique and that there is 1 hammer per 5 models

1x 10-man GKIS squad with psycannons and 2 hammers.

This nets me 37 models, 5-8 kill points (as needed), and the flexibility to put units where I want them, when I want them.

SJ

[Bean]

What are peoples thoughts on the Ghostwing? At 1750ps (the common point value for tourneys at my venue), I'm running:

Mordrak + Ghosts with an attached Librarian + Homer, for a 1st turn no scatter, "put them where I want them" unit.

2x 10-man GKT squad with psycannons and enough different weapons so that each model is unique and that there is 1 hammer per 5 models

1x 10-man GKIS squad with psycannons and 2 hammers.

This nets me 37 models, 5-8 kill points (as needed), and the flexibility to put units where I want them, when I want them.

SJ

Mordrak is great, but I'm not sure I'd bother with a teleport homer on the librarian. Remember that the homer has no effect on units that you summon, so it's only worthwhile if you start the other stuff in reserve, too. Frankly, I think mordrak is much better as the only deepstriker in an otherwise-on-the-table army than as the first deepstriker in a deep-strike army. Those termies just aren't really tough enough to land somewhere useful turn one and survive.

[DarkLink]

Plus the lack of psycannons means you can't drop down and hit side armor to pop vehicles or something like that. And if you're not careful you're handing your opponent 400pts of your army to plasma/melta, while his long range stuff shoots the rest of your army. Turn 2 you might be down a quarter of your points at relatively little loss to your opponent.

[Bean]

Plus the lack of psycannons means you can't drop down and hit side armor to pop vehicles or something like that. And if you're not careful you're handing your opponent 400pts of your army to plasma/melta, while his long range stuff shoots the rest of your army. Turn 2 you might be down a quarter of your points at relatively little loss to your opponent.

You could be, but, frankly, if you use Grand Strategy for scout and have reasonable long-ranged support, it isn't likely. A friend is playing a mech strike-squad list with dreads and mordark/ghost knights. The rhinos scout up, the Dreads don't have to be close, and Mordrak doesn't really get hung out to dry unless you're just playing stupidly. It's true that his landing turn is unimpressive, but it's not too hard to put him somewhere where's he's a pain to get rid of and a substantial close combat threat, and if you press correctly with the rest of your army, they won't be able to kill him offhandedly without pulling important shots from your other stuff.

[jeffersonian000]

Mordrak is great, but I'm not sure I'd bother with a teleport homer on the librarian. Remember that the homer has no effect on units that you summon, so it's only worthwhile if you start the other stuff in reserve, too. Frankly, I think mordrak is much better as the only deepstriker in an otherwise-on-the-table army than as the first deepstriker in a deep-strike army. Those termies just aren't really tough enough to land somewhere useful turn one and survive.

That's assuming I'd bother Summoning, which my list just doesn't need to do. I'm more focused on Quicksilver, Shrouding, Sanctuary, and Warp Rift.

SJ

[Bean]

That's assuming I'd bother Summoning, which my list just doesn't need to do. I'm more focused on Quicksilver, Shrouding, Sanctuary, and Warp Rift.

SJ

So...why are you bringing a teleport homer?

[jeffersonian000]

So...why are you bringing a teleport homer?

Really? I mean, dude, really?

The homer is useful for when my reserved units first come in on turn 2 and later, when they will be teleporting on to the table per the deep strike rules. The GK Teleport Homer doesn't work with The Summoning power, as it only works for deep striking GKT, GKSS, and GKIS arriving via teleport. The Summoning does not "teleport" a unit, so a Teleport Homer has no effect.

In my army, the Teleport Homer allows me to place arriving units within the Librarians radius of effect for powers such as Sanctuary and Shrouding on my opponents turn, or Quicksilver and Might on my turn. The utility of not needing to worry about scatter more than makes up for the price tag a Libby pays for a Teleport Homer.

SJ

[Bean]

Really? I mean, dude, really?

The homer is useful for when my reserved units first come in on turn 2 and later, when they will be teleporting on to the table per the deep strike rules. The GK Teleport Homer doesn't work with The Summoning power, as it only works for deep striking GKT, GKSS, and GKIS arriving via teleport. The Summoning does not "teleport" a unit, so a Teleport Homer has no effect.

In my army, the Teleport Homer allows me to place arriving units within the Librarians radius of effect for powers such as Sanctuary and Shrouding on my opponents turn, or Quicksilver and Might on my turn. The utility of not needing to worry about scatter more than makes up for the price tag a Libby pays for a Teleport Homer.

SJ

Yeah, so I addressed this, too. You really shouldn't have second-turn teleporting squads routinely--certainly not often enough to make it worth its cost.

Also, I know that the Homer doesn't work with the summoning. I already said that, remember? No need to repeat it back to me. I just figured that you were bringing the Homer under the mistaken assumption that you could use it to aid with The Summoning. Clearly, I was giving you too much credit.

[jeffersonian000]

Yeah, so I addressed this, too. You really shouldn't have second-turn teleporting squads routinely--certainly not often enough to make it worth its cost.

Also, I know that the Homer doesn't work with the summoning. I already said that, remember? No need to repeat it back to me. I just figured that you were bringing the Homer under the mistaken assumption that you could use it to aid with The Summoning. Clearly, I was giving you too much credit.

The goal is tactical flexibility, not to be locked into one strategy every game. I can deep strike everything, or not. I can walk stuff across the board, or not. the ability to be able to place my units exactly where I want them to be is huge. Yep, this is not the best force build, as lot's of armies and players can rip it apart. But its not a bad army, either, and if played well could be quite rewarding, aka "If I'm the better play, I should win, but if not, I should be able to force a draw".

Not sure what the "Clearly, I was giving you too much credit" comment was for, as your post to me seemed to imply that I should be using The Summoning, a tactic I just don't trust due to the fairly large chance of mishap. While it seems to be in vogue at the moment, I see too many complications with its use.

SJ

[BrokenWing]

My question for everyone is...how certain are we that Falchions add +2 attacks and not just +1?

[Bean]

My question for everyone is...how certain are we that Falchions add +2 attacks and not just +1?

As of this moment? Quite certain. Sooner or later, though, there will be an FAQ--and there's really no way to guess which way that ruling will go, or even if it will be addressed at all.

[Bean]

The goal is tactical flexibility, not to be locked into one strategy every game. I can deep strike everything, or not. I can walk stuff across the board, or not. the ability to be able to place my units exactly where I want them to be is huge. Yep, this is not the best force build, as lot's of armies and players can rip it apart. But its not a bad army, either, and if played well could be quite rewarding, aka "If I'm the better play, I should win, but if not, I should be able to force a draw".


I guess. I'm still not convinced it's a good expenditure of points. You can all-reserves everything without a teleport homer, and the homer, frankly, only makes the army a little bit better a little bit of the time. That's not the sort of benefit I'd be spending points on--especially not as many as the Homer costs.



Not sure what the "Clearly, I was giving you too much credit" comment was for, as your post to me seemed to imply that I should be using The Summoning, a tactic I just don't trust due to the fairly large chance of mishap. While it seems to be in vogue at the moment, I see too many complications with its use.

SJ

Nah, I thought you were planning to use Summoning. I definitely wouldnt' suggest it. If the Homer helped guide Summoned units, it would be a great power and you'd play that and the homer all the time (and I thought you were operating under this assumption in making your original decision). The way it actually is, though, I definitely would advise not bothering with Summoning--or the Homer.

[BrokenWing]

As of this moment? Quite certain. Sooner or later, though, there will be an FAQ--and there's really no way to guess which way that ruling will go, or even if it will be addressed at all.

Unfortunately around here I'm not going to get that benefit without an FAQ.

[Bean]

Unfortunately around here I'm not going to get that benefit without an FAQ.

Bummer.

[BrokenWing]

Yeah. I asked around here and they believe the +1 attack is from two close combat weapons, not because of the natural coolness of the swords, so it's just +1 attack. Come on FAQ.

[DarkLink]

They're illiterate. The rules are pretty clear, and it's absolutely in favor of the +2A. There's just enough wiggle room for people to whine about it and try to deny it, but you get +2A unless GW FAQs otherwise.

[BrokenWing]

Right, see my thought was that if you just gained +1 because it was a pair of weapons the rule would say as much. These are clearly special abilities granted by the weapons themselves, and paying that many points for a random extra close combat weapon would be pretty stupid.

Think I'll just use it as +2a and not mention it again until there is an FAQ I can wave around at people.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Yeah, I get that whole +1 A craporama, because it's pointed out that they now cannot use the Storm Bolter as a CC weapon, so the falchions allow an extra attack. Grrr...

Anyway, DARKLINK thanks for the run downs on the Strike Squads and Terminators, good to get confirmation on the Psycannon thing (I just could never see the point of the psilencers other than model aesthetics). One thing I was wondering is why you said not to bother with psybolts on small squads?

Anyway, I have a 3500 point list I have used twice now, and it sure has worked a treat. I smashed the granny out of a large Eldar force on Saturday, Chaos MArines before that - using two Stormravens. Anyway, list is below: -

Kaldor Draigo
Draigo ‘Retinue’ – 5 Paladins (1xPsycannon and Ward Stave, 1xFalchions,1xDaemonhammer, 1xForce Sword, 1xHalberd). Psybolts, Brotherhood Banner
Paladins x 6 (Halberds, 2x Psycannon, Psybolts, Brotherhood Banner)
Paladins x 5 (Halberds, 2x Psycannon, Psybolts, Brotherhood Banner)
Librarian – Mastery 3, Halberd, Servo Skulls x 3, 7 Powers (attaches to 5xPaladin unit)
Venerable Dreadnought – Twin Linked Lascannon, DCCW
Purifier Squad with Halberds x8, 2xIncinerators and Rhino Transport w/ Warp Stab. Field
Stormraven with M.Melta, TL Assault Cannon, Hurricane Bolters and Psybolt Ammo
Stormraven with M.Melta, TL Lascannon Hurricane Bolters and Psybolt Ammo
Interceptors x 5, Halberds, Incinerator and Psybolts
Purgation Squad x 5 – 4xPsycannon, Teleport Homer, Razorback with Lascannon Transport
Dreadknight 1 Greatsword, Gat Psilencer, Teleporter
Dreadknight 2 Heavy Psycannon, Heavy Incinerator, Greatsword and Teleporter
3484 points (may be slightly wrong, but around that mark - don't have codex to check ATM)

I'm certainly going to be changing the Gat psilencer on the Dreadknight - even though it was nice to chew up a squad of Rangers. What I liked about this list was the amount of Psycannons, the character of the Kaldor retinue (even though some of the upgrades should be halberds really), the fear factor of the jump pack Dreadknights, the Purifiers shooting over the Razorback, the possibility of first turn charges with Stormravens and their surprising durability (opponents just didn't seem to want/be able to take them down until turn 4) plus their huge firepower and the sneakiness of the Interceptors for objective grabbing). Draigo makes the Paladins troop choices, meaning objective grabs, and the option to give the Dreadknights troop status is great. Opponents just have such a headache taking out the Paladins compared to GKT. Used in concert as a spearhead, the opponent feels he has to concentrate fire on them, meaning your shootier units go largely unmolested.
Any screaming problems you guys can see here? Bear in mind I usually play one big game every two weeks

[DarkLink]

Psybolts are cool, but when you only have 4-5 storm bolters it's just not worth 20pts for str 5. GKs are already very expensive for not really being any tougher than normal Marines, so you have to very carefully consider each and every upgrade you give them. While str 5 storm bolters are nice, they really don't bring a whole lot to your unit, unless you get a lot of str 5 out of it.

[jeffersonian000]

I guess. I'm still not convinced it's a good expenditure of points. You can all-reserves everything without a teleport homer, and the homer, frankly, only makes the army a little bit better a little bit of the time. That's not the sort of benefit I'd be spending points on--especially not as many as the Homer costs.

Well, I'm just not interested in scatter, so 15pts is worth it to me to not have to worry about scatter. YMMV.



Nah, I thought you were planning to use Summoning. I definitely wouldnt' suggest it. If the Homer helped guide Summoned units, it would be a great power and you'd play that and the homer all the time (and I thought you were operating under this assumption in making your original decision). The way it actually is, though, I definitely would advise not bothering with Summoning--or the Homer.

I'm not able to find a use for The Summoning. It seems nice, with a lot of potential, until you start to use it. Then you see all the little problems that pop up, too many to be worth the rare opportunity it might effect the game in a positive way.

SJ

[DarkLink]

My biggest problem with the Summoning is that I don't want to pull units to my Librarian. My Librarian is front and center where the action is, or close to it. Thus, most of my army is already there. I don't need to draw units to him. Instead, I need to take a unit and toss it on that far objective I wasn't able to get to.

Just that alone has made the Summoning completely useless for me. I don't think I've had a game yet where I was in a situation to actually use it.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Actually, it can be useful if you get out manoevured or otherwise stranded. My Purifiers in their Rhino were heading off towards a nice bunch of Eldar Guardians, but my 2nd turn of firing wiped out an entire flank of Eldar. My Purifiers were totally out of the game at this point, on the wrong side of the board. But one quick Summoning later and they were right back in the thick of it, blowing the crap out of stuff. I then Summoned them again later to catch up with the Librarian who had used the Stormraven to travel to the other flank. I liked it. Against fast-moving opponents, I think it's really useful

[Duke]

This is a perfect example of a situational power... for 4 out of 5 games you won't even use it. Then, in one game you use it 3 times! My ruling is that if you have extra points to spend then fine add summoning, but if it is between giving a strike squad a hammer or this power, then take the thing that isn't another power.

Duke

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

True. Loads of powers I didn't bother using, like the offensive powers. Opportunity just didn't arise. Boosting the abilities of those around him was way more effective.