Tyranids: still the horror to be feared? Or just a pesky fly you bat out of the way?

[shadosun]

Ok so I've seen alot of posts from nid, and non nid, players on different sites about how the nids are in a decline. They're done as far as some are concerned. Now excluding the people who fear the apocalypse is coming whenever they feel a breeze, there is enough concern to maybe raise the question that there are too many armies that can use the bugs then toss them aside. I had tried not to believe them as well, but now I have a fellow nid player throwing in the towel with them for the tourney's saying that they just can't do it anymore.

So my question to the masses of the lounge. If you are a nid player do you feel we (I myself collect nids) can be a force to be reckoned with in tourney's or not. And if you're not a nid player your input is wanted too as maybe you have an opinion after facing nids. Or just have an opinion period. Thank you all in advance, I'm using this to decide if I invest the final 300 in finishing them now or later :)

[Xas]

judging from the full codex nids can do quite OK.
judging just those units the nids currently have available as modells from gw its pointless (meaning: you really NEED tervigons, tyrannofexes and pods).


the nid and de books should have shown GW two prime examples of how to NOT do a army release and how you should instead do it: some randomly trown out changes and a few randomly new metal modells as well as a pretty cheap forgeworld transform to plastic while the true gems stay unreleased is WRONG. writing a powerfull, charackterfull and full of options book with interesting spezial rules while releaseing the core models first and all but the named ICs within a short timeframge is RIGHT.


I mean the nid book is older than the de and is missing 3 core modells while the DE will have all but one (voidraven bomber) available in a few weeks.


so yeah, its not the book thats bad but the support...

[Brotherjames]

judging from the full codex nids can do quite OK.
judging just those units the nids currently have available as modells from gw its pointless (meaning: you really NEED tervigons, tyrannofexes and pods).


the nid and de books should have shown GW two prime examples of how to NOT do a army release and how you should instead do it: some randomly trown out changes and a few randomly new metal modells as well as a pretty cheap forgeworld transform to plastic while the true gems stay unreleased is WRONG. writing a powerfull, charackterfull and full of options book with interesting spezial rules while releaseing the core models first and all but the named ICs within a short timeframge is RIGHT.


I mean the nid book is older than the de and is missing 3 core modells while the DE will have all but one (voidraven bomber) available in a few weeks.


so yeah, its not the book thats bad but the support...

Not a nid player but I agree totally that they didn't get the support they needed

[shadosun]

That has been one of my biggest issues playing with the nids. I don't enjoy doing conversions, and yet units I need don't exist. There is maybe hopes of a tervigon on the horizon, kinda hard to tell really, I think its just wishful thinking but a friend of mine said he thought he saw one in the new WD. Specualtion aside though very good point. I'd like to think the codex isn't dead and is capable of winning, but those models need to be released to jump start them some.

[Nungunz]

I've done alright in tournaments playing Tyranids, but it is difficult to pull off. We absolutely need long-distance anti-transport in order to do well. Sometimes even Hive Guard don't cut it against the fast armies.

Tyrannofexes with rupture cannons, Harpies with TL-Heavy VCs, Winged Tyrants with TL-Devs, poding Thropes. All very expensive units, but it's our only options for decently ranged AT shots. Honestly I don't even care about killing heavy vehicles with these, as long as they don't shoot, I'm okay with that.

[HsojVvad]

I have taken a break from 40K and when I did play I sucked not because I played Nids but because I am still getting use to the rules. More collector/modeler than playing. When I do play, it seems the rules changes so never really played a true 40K game much.

From what I gather from peoples opnion on the net and playing, it's easiest to play SM type armies. From what I see about 50% of players play SM type armies for either fluff because they like them, or from what I gather because it's easier to win with.

This is not saying Tyranids can't win, some people claim they won some tournies with them, but it's EASIER with SM because it seems people HAVE to win playing with plastic toy soldiers. for some reasons.

From what I gather, Tyranids is like playing with Dark Eldar, they can win, but it's possible to win with them, BUT you need to be patient with them and an experianced player can do good with them. Sadly I have seen experinaced players on the internet give up on them because they say Tyranids can't do good in the Tourney scene and shelved them sadly.

[Ghoulio]

I would have to say that Tyranids are one of the harder armies to play for tournaments out there. Right from the get go you are behind everyone else due to limited anti tank weapon options and Robin Crudace's huge over estimate of how powerful Monstrous Creature with no inlvun save are (almost all are massively overpriced).

You can definelty win, you just have to work that much harder then everyone else. That being said with every new release that comes out though it makes winning tougher and tougher (DE is THE nightmare draw at a tournament for Tyranids closely followed by GK). I am a long time Tyranid player (almost 20 years) and once my DE are painted the Tyranids are getting put on the shelf until their new codex comes out.

[shadosun]

I would have to say that Tyranids are one of the harder armies to play for tournaments out there. Right from the get go you are behind everyone else due to limited anti tank weapon options and Robin Crudace's huge over estimate of how powerful Monstrous Creature with no inlvun save are (almost all are massively overpriced).

You can definelty win, you just have to work that much harder then everyone else. That being said with every new release that comes out though it makes winning tougher and tougher (DE is THE nightmare draw at a tournament for Tyranids closely followed by GK). I am a long time Tyranid player (almost 20 years) and once my DE are painted the Tyranids are getting put on the shelf until their new codex comes out.

WOW that bad huh? Thats gonna be a long time before we get a new one sadly. I just kinda hoped that I'd hear they do better, I really don't plan on playing in top competitive games, but still I'd like to know my army can, and with nids that chance seems to be dwindling. Esp. with the cron's finally getting their rebirth if the rumors I see are true (which they're rumors can't really believe them) they could mess up the MC's alot too.

[BrokenWing]

One thing that turned me away from the new Nid book almost instantly was how expensive hive tyrants were and yet they have *no* invulnerable save, which is idiotic.

[Cyberscape7]

One thing that turned me away from the new Nid book almost instantly was how expensive hive tyrants were and yet they have *no* invulnerable save, which is idiotic.

Too true! Robbin Cruddace has basically made the Hive Tyrant DEPENDANT on the hive guard, unless you go for the flyrant config.
As for the book as a whole, I haven't experienced much trouble playing with it. This being said, me and my friend are not really competitive players.

[DarkLink]

'nidz have a big learning curve, but someone who knows what they're doing can do pretty well with them.

In fact, at socal slaughter this weekend my last game vs a quality 'nidz player was my only real loss (I actually almost got tabled, as opposed to nearly tabling my opponent like in every other game). Partially my fault though, as we don't have an local regulars that play 'nidz that are any good so I don't have a lot of experience facing them.

[s_harrington]

I've placed in a few tournaments with the Tyranids, but recently shelved them and picked up a Grey Knight army for tournament play.
It's not that I can't win with Tyranids, it's just so damn hard to do compared to Grey Knights or Space Wolves.
I've gotten a bit bored with eeking out minor wins with bugs. When I use the Knights, I get major wins and massacres in the same setting.

To me it comes down to this: If you have the skill set to win, why don't you make use of a codex that best takes advantage of those skills?

[BrokenWing]

I played Tyranids back in 3rd edition straight out of the rulebook and through that codex. I took a break last codex and then this one made sure I kept staying on that break.

[Hive Mind]

A bad workman blames his tools.

[BrokenWing]

As does a good workmen with bad tools, who then usually goes out and buys different ones.

[shadosun]

Ok I'm starting to get more of a feel of the thoughts on nids now. As I assumed it isn't so black and white, it seems alot think they can win and yet feel that it's such an uphill fight to do so that it would be better to pick a new army. Am I understanding that right?

I can agree with thoughts like that. And yet part of me wants to rebell against that. I mean couldn't ecking out a win be more meaningful than stomping all over the other army. I understand flooring an opponent could be better tournament wise, but I can't be the only one who thinks a close match is alot more fun than a one sided fight, for both players really.

Ok while I like my point in the second paragraph I just realized that we haven't been discussing whether they are fun in a fight its whether they can win at a tourney. While I love a fun fight if you don't floor someone that could be bad for your standings. So I guess then that the view I brought up doesn't bode well for the bugs in tourney's. Or can you still place really high just ecking out wins? I haven't played in a major tourney yet (ok 1 'ard boys that I'd rather forget, my poor zoan's the eldar didn't let them do anything lol) and I have no idea how a win like that vs a massacre would affect a standing.

[BrokenWing]

I like Tyranids, I just don't like how they operate currently. Give me a hive tyrant with an invulnerable save and we'll talk. It may seem like a small thing, but HQs are very important to my enjoying an army and tyranids are no exception.

[DarkLink]

Ok I'm starting to get more of a feel of the thoughts on nids now. As I assumed it isn't so black and white, it seems alot think they can win and yet feel that it's such an uphill fight to do so that it would be better to pick a new army. Am I understanding that right?


They can make a pretty competitive army, far moreso than most of the internet seems to think. There are a few specific things in the game that competitive 'nidz have trouble dealing with, and you probably won't hear some bull about 'the new leafblower' ever, but anyone who thinks they can't win is either uninformed or a bad player.

They are, however, tricky to play correctly, and it seems they don't play quite like the old codex and that turns a lot of old players off. And they don't play like Marines, which turns a lot of other players off.

[s_harrington]

I don't think I clearly communicated my position.
I shelved my Tyranids for tournament play only.

For a friendly pickup game, I'm more likely to play them then not, as I'm not as concerned about winning as I am at a tournament. I still play to win, but it's not as important.

Tyranids are still fun. They are still interesting. They can still challenge your opponents. I've just relegated them to non competitive games in favor of stronger codexs when winning the game actually counts.

I took the Tyranids through all 3 rounds of Ard Boyz last year's Ardboyz, till I got face smashed at the LA finals by Spacewolf Long Fang/Razorbacks spam by AJ. (Who took 2nd). Every game of every round was a struggle, even against baby seals in the first round.


My advice is to gauge the environment you'll be playing in. If your non competitive, then by all means, Tyranids are a great army that will fulfill the need for fluff, story driven games, and a sense of a hard fought battle. But if you’re going into a competitive environment, then you need to make some hard decisions on how hard you want forward progress to be.

[shadosun]

I see what you are saying. Fighting hard for a win can feel like a great accomplishment. But feeling like you're fighting that hard for a win in only round 1 can be a morale killer, that and I can see it being a huge pain that we can't afford to make mistakes while a cheesy SM list or IG list could make a mistake and still win.

I am debating on trying another army and building another more competitive army for tourney's. I guess part of my hesitation on deciding is the fact my nids hold some sentimental value as my first army that I invested time and energy into. Well that and I love the fact you have living tanks, few models look as good as a well painted trygon or 'fex.

[Ghoulio]

I see what you are saying. Fighting hard for a win can feel like a great accomplishment. But feeling like you're fighting that hard for a win in only round 1 can be a morale killer, that and I can see it being a huge pain that we can't afford to make mistakes while a cheesy SM list or IG list could make a mistake and still win.

I am debating on trying another army and building another more competitive army for tourney's. I guess part of my hesitation on deciding is the fact my nids hold some sentimental value as my first army that I invested time and energy into. Well that and I love the fact you have living tanks, few models look as good as a well painted trygon or 'fex.

If you want an army that is fun, challenging, competitive and looks incredible on the field then why not just go for Dark Eldar. Like Tyranids they are difficult to play well but unlike Tyranids they actually have a well written codex. So all your choices are "what units fit my playstyle the best?" instead of "what couple of units can I take that won't 100% screw me because they are so awful?".

I am about as big of a Tyranid fan boy as you can get. I have played Tyranids in 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th edition and this is the only time I have been this frustrated playing any army. It isn't nessecarily that I can't win, it's more the fact that it is such a low quality product. The book is filled with options that you pay LOTS of points to make your model the same or worse, rules that anyone could write better (looking at yu Trygon hole), only having assault grenades on a unit that is initiative 1 and lictors. The list literally goes on and on. This is why my nids are sitting in storage until someone who actually likes Tyranids writes their codex :)

[Lemt]

Tyranids have some hidden gems that most people don't seem to notice because of the Hive Guard and Trygon spam you see everywhere. The Parasite in a big unit of Gargoyles is quite cheap for what it does, and can bring the hurt to pretty much anything (give Adrenal Glands to the Gargoyles, you'll thank me later).
The Doom in a Spore is great at dealing with pesky Long Fangs and their friends, worst case scenario he'll call for quite a lot of shots, and is also on the cheap side of things.

[GAZ-NZ]

I came 7th in a NZ tournament using Nids and new codex.
I had never really played them before - 2 games prior.
Used lots of Spore Drop pods - got em up close and ate SM armies for breakfast.
Wiped other nids army off the field along with orks.
My army had shooty and cc mix.
I had no trygons or mawlocs either.
If i had had one trygon I would have came 3rd prehaps I reckon.

Im a Marine/Dark Angels player generally.
Only army I struggled with was chaos Daemons but the terrain didnt help with that.

Playing against Nids with Marines I wipe them out mostly usually by turn 3 with good shooting as per my last tournament playing Dark Angels.
I note the player didnt deep strike on me by any means and was easy to deal with.

Nids are quite playable and have different options.
Try different things.

[Cavscout]

I love my Nids. I usually change up my lists to keep things interesting. I have converted two tervigons, a tyrannofex, and a Harpy. I am unhappy with the amount of love from GW. Last I heard from them was that slap to the face FAQ. If I play in a local tourny I can beat most of my local competition with the exception of a friend who plays Mech Eldar. He's a sneaky bastage. If I'm going to go to a higher level of competition, no way. Once you step into higher levels of play, they just can't compete. No retreat wounds to MC's because they got multi charged along with some guants, lack of EW, Invul saves, speed of army just can't compete. If you look at the way this game is changing, then look closely at deployment options. Alpha warrior can't join a unit in a pod? Lictors phermone trail doesn't start working until the turn after he arrives (if he survives) and he has to deploy via DS? Can't use a trygon tunnel the turn he arrives from DS? How many turns does GW think our games are? If I don't want to run across the kill zone, then I only get half a game to do my best. Nids are just not fast enough to compete. I'll be taking my DE wych/warriors to Ard Boyz this year. Rant over

[newtoncain]

With the Rock-Paper-Scissors of WH40K as a Nid player they are in decline.

Between DE (posion all around), GK and 3 x Long Fang Wolf builds they are not worth taking to a tourney.
It used only be Mechdar that gave me problems.

SO they slowly go the way of ebay.:(

Sure I'm keeping a few around for fun battles, but for competitive = no way.

[Lemt]

With the Rock-Paper-Scissors of WH40K as a Nid player they are in decline.

Between DE (posion all around), GK and 3 x Long Fang Wolf builds they are not worth taking to a tourney.
It used only be Mechdar that gave me problems.

SO they slowly go the way of ebay.:(

Sure I'm keeping a few around for fun battles, but for competitive = no way.

You just have to change your army a bit to adapt to the metagame. If that's what you have to play against, don't go for an army made of Tervigons and Trygons. Play Ymgarls, Gargoyles, what have you.

[Drunkencorgimaster]

This is one of the more insightful discussions I have read lately. Good comments all around. I played 40k casually for about ten years and never placed in a tourney. With the new Nid codex I have placed in my last two competitions (one win, one second). I'm not disagreeing with the critics per se, rather I suspect that because I am the only one in my local area still playing the bugs, my opponents are not really prepared for dealing with them. It does help to be able to make conversions as I use a Tervigon and Parasite team that works pretty well. As suggested above, the parasite has to be in a swarm of gargoyles for protection, but if she gets amongst enemy troops she will really wreck havoc. The Tervigon is not reliable, but if you happen to make the right rolls it is very difficult for an opponent to deal with the swarms of new models that keep popping up on the table. The comments about the lack of anti-tank options and waiting a turn for the tunnels to activate or for the lictor's pheronome (s/b) trail to kick in are clearly correct. I think if you're going to play the bugs you just have to reconcile yourself to not being able to take out tanks at a distance and accept the fact that the once-beloved lictor needs to stay on the shelf.

[Cavscout]

I was just pointing out the inconsistancies in the nid book. The only reason i dont use lictors is that the elite slots are so competitive. If they were FA then you would see them used more often. Two str6 rending shots on rear armor? Yes please. The people i play with will tell you nids are a hard army. Its when you take them to a real competitive environment that they are meh. Nidzilla dies too fast. Horde armies never get past the fourth turn because of time constraints. 3Rd turn on is when horde armies potential to kill units start. I like my big bugs but a 3+ arnor save just doesnt cut it.