Alternative Chaos?

[BrokenWing]

So I'm a huge Chaos fan, I've played Chaos in 40k for years (until this latest sham of a codex) and play it in Fantasy with great zeal.

When the latest 40k Chaos codex came out, it did so much damage to my beloved 10,000 point Chaos Army, that I couldn't field a useful, competitive 2,000 point list with the models I had and half my characters with their pages of background became completely unusable.

Fortunately, I kept the character models and didn't kill off my Chaos army in the background (just had them disappear).

So my question is, is there a 40k Codex that would make for fairly good rules for a Chaos army? I was thinking perhaps Space Wolves, since it attains the powerful Lord feel that I like with Chaos. I won't get a perfect army (for my tastes) out of any of them, but maybe I can get an army I can at least stand playing?

Or am I stuck waiting a year+ for the next Chaos codex and hoping it's less terrible?

[wkz]

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You sure are late to the party eh? Welcome to the wonderful world of "counts as" by the way. Watch out for the flamebugs flying around here somewhere, they tend to congregate when someone so much as whispers "counts as".


First up: which army you should choose as "counts as" is dependent a LOT on your army's fluff.

Coincidently, the amount of respect you get from your fellow gamers is dependent a LOT on how much work you do to make said army fit into the fluff AND "count as" codex you've chosen.

For examples, trying to make a "more or less regular Renegade army", or the "Black Legion" using anything other than the Chaos codex will invite scorn and derision. Despite what you think, C:CSM is still a strong codex ... if you take certain choices (what's broken about C:CSM is actually the huge downsizing of unit choices available to you). And the general "agreed it is reasonably ok" things taken so happens to fit the "Black Legion" to a tee (regular chaos undecided, some oblits, a defiler or two, a few terminators, Abbadon himself...)

But if you're going for... ... hmm... ... Pre-Heresy Iron warriors, a Lysander-themed Terminator heavy army with 3 Vindicators will actually fit quite well (both IronFists and IronWarriors are siege armies: one puts up, one tears down)

Edit: ... Actually, scratch that. 3*3 Obliterators + the cheapest available Terminator-heavy army means the original C:CSM codex is quite high in the choices for a pre-heresy Iron Warriors army... just re-tool a Defiler as some kinda super-advanced siege tank or something.

Or if you're after a pureblood Thousand Sons army... The new Gray Knights might work well if you self restrict yourself: take nothing but troop units, restrict your HQs to Librarians, "adapt" the 30" shunt as a Chaos spell, bring along a few bio-armored monstrous DaemonKnights, etc.

Or if you're going for the Night Hauter's bunch, surprisingly Chaos Daemons work very very well (as a full deepstrike army, that is). Or you can have a full jumppack Blood Angels army led by Dante too. (Dante's "hero nerf" ability can even be fluff-hijacked as your HQ haunting the opponent's HQ into a "brown pants" moment :D)

Actually, the daemons thing might work a LOT better for the Alpha Legion: Being so sneaky, they basically appear outta nowhere. Even their Dreadnoughts (retasked Soul Engines).

As for Slanneshi Marines... "Count as" Eldar/DarkEldar would be darn hilarious. Surprisingly, Space Wolves would work too (Longfangs with 5 heavy bolters are a very scary stand-in for Noise Marines. And Slanesshi fiends = ThunderWolves, Regular Slanneshi Marines = blood claws. etc. etc...)



So, if you want more help, you'd have to give more information: what do you think your army should look like. What do you think your army's general history should be like (most of us only have a vague idea of our army's history. We're all NOT Dan Abnet after all.), etc, etc...

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But if you're "count as"-ing because you want the other codex's "killyness" and over-hyped power levels instead... well... I suggest you abandon the chaosness of your army and build towards an entirely new army instead. The flamebugs tend to go into a frenzy when they realize you've just "count as" your army for such reasons, you see...

[BrokenWing]

Well, I've had other projects on my mind and have put Chaos to the back burner for a long time. It's possible they'll still be there when a new Codex comes out, but I want to explore my options first.

What really killed the hell out of my army was losing demons and my HQs going from terrifying badasses to mewling weaklings who got repeatedly beat into the ground by vanilla marine hq choices. Also losing my Daemon Princes to the "Daemon Prince" in the current codex. Fortunately my lovely Noise Marines were left uncastrated and my Nurgle marines remained remarkably fat.

I have a loyalist army that uses the Space Wolves and Grey Knights codex to represent different companies (who act remarkably different from one another) and I have a Dark Eldar army, so I'm not just looking for the latest and greatest as much as I am something that will allow me to dust off my HQ models, buy some new Chaos stuff and get my Forge World Keeper of Secrets back to keeping secrets.


The most important thing to getting my army back on track really is making my elite units feel elite. There's nothing that makes me feel like my Terminators are less elite than everyone else s than fighting a huge amount of storm shield wielding terminators. Chosen are...well and my HQ's get murdered by the likes of Imperial Guard HQ's at this point. I don't even own a Chaos codex anymore, I gave it to a friend after I sold 8,000 points worth of Chaos (the remaining points being my HQ models).

The army history is complicated and goes back to the first days of the last codex so I'll try and be brief. It's a huge amalgamation of Chaos armies at this point, largely populated and controlled by two central armies, both of which were at one point loyalist marine chapters. The largest by far (and the controlling faction) made use of alot jump packs, elite close combat units and shooting. They number around 10,000 strong and come equipped with their own Titan Legion and factory ships. They had to operate on their own for thousands of years as a Chapter, so have all the equipment necessary to keep things running. In the fluff they recently took out a Forge World to gather replacements and replacement parts for their aging 10 operational Titans.

They have a long running feud with the Mortifactors and were a large presence at Medusa Five. The most powerful lord controls the entire army (including elements that have joined just because it means they can go kill Imperials) and the other former chapter that fights under their banner. He is assisted by a powerful and highly mutated, if not particularly tactically sound, Slaanesh Lord, a quiet but potent Nurgle Lord, a Nurgle Daemon Prince and an infamous Tzeentch Sorcerer. There is a limited Khornate and Tzeentch presence within the Legion, but they are overwhelmingly Slaanesh and Nurgle, with a large, central core of elite units. Whenever possibly they like to get things done the old fashioned way (beating your head in) and quickly.

[wkz]

Basically it boils down to: Big dudes kill lotsa things. Lots of jump packs, elite close combat units and shooting. Slaanesh and Nurgle as a core. Access to recent Forgeworld (with recent Imperialistic innovations), thus good access to equipment.

Correct?

Hmmm... let me think on this for a bit? Trying to match Nurgle (high tough, slow mobility, feel no pain) with Slaanesh (high I, high mobility, many shooting/closecombat attacks, hexing the opponent) in a single non-Chaos codex which has solid elites too is proving to be a pain...

[BrokenWing]

I can deal with a lack of high initiative. It would be swell, but it's secondary to everything else. The Slaanesh never formed the core of the close combat ability anyway.

It's hard for me to not look at the Space Wolf codex for answers. Space Wolf HQs are some of the toughest around in close combat and I was just thinking earlier that Thunder Wolves could make for some really nice demons rules wise.

[DrLove42]

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You sure are late to the party eh? Welcome to the wonderful world of "counts as" by the way. Watch out for the flamebugs flying around here somewhere, they tend to congregate when someone so much as whispers "counts as".



Death to the Infidel!

[Lerra]

You can make Chaos count as nearly every codex. I've seen everything from Space Wolves to Tau. It's just a matter of how much conversion work you want to do to make it WYSIWYG. The marines codices are easiest.

[helvexis]

I've recently been thinking of using tyranids to do an alpha legion with warriors as the few and far between squads of actual legionaires keeping all the dakkagaunt cultists together with there orders via synapse and probably 2 primes/hive tyrants to make a baby alpharious/omegon

However a hive tyrant would work with a slaaneshi color and a tervigon as a burgle daemon prince could be done with green stuff and paint

And have your troops mostly warrior squads with maybe a few gaunt squads as recent recruits who just want to run forth and kill in the name of chaos ... The pawns that you sacrifice for the greater good of ... Yourself as a decadent lord of chaos should ;-)

Heavy support (steam punked maybe) tyrranofex and/or shootyish carnifex's as your smaller titans and large tanks

And shrikes for the jump packs

And ymgarl stealers as the high initiative choppy elites?

Now personally I think painting nid models with chaos color schemes would looks sexy ... Well maybe not nurgly schemes but even so you could convert the more creaturey aspects to be a bit more mechanical ...

[Tynskel]

This actually sounds really cool.

[BrokenWing]

I've recently been thinking of using tyranids to do an alpha legion with warriors as the few and far between squads of actual legionaires keeping all the dakkagaunt cultists together with there orders via synapse and probably 2 primes/hive tyrants to make a baby alpharious/omegon

However a hive tyrant would work with a slaaneshi color and a tervigon as a burgle daemon prince could be done with green stuff and paint

And have your troops mostly warrior squads with maybe a few gaunt squads as recent recruits who just want to run forth and kill in the name of chaos ... The pawns that you sacrifice for the greater good of ... Yourself as a decadent lord of chaos should ;-)

Heavy support (steam punked maybe) tyrranofex and/or shootyish carnifex's as your smaller titans and large tanks

And shrikes for the jump packs

And ymgarl stealers as the high initiative choppy elites?

Now personally I think painting nid models with chaos color schemes would looks sexy ... Well maybe not nurgly schemes but even so you could convert the more creaturey aspects to be a bit more mechanical ...

I've thought about this as well but the new Nid codex is a bit of a turn off. Although using it for a different army might help alot. I just wish they'd fix my codex.

I'll keep your idea in mind, I don't think I'm one hundred percent sold on the idea of counts asing my Chaos army just yet.

[Denzark]

Broken Wing

I am one of the aforementioned flame bugs. I will split this post into 2 - firstly, answering your questions to the best of my ability. Secondly, a defence of that codex and how I am surprised by your post.



First, what could you use?

Space wolves. Grey Hunters have the excellent bolter/pistol/hth weapon combo that CSM troops do. TWC could take you back to old school juggernauts, Wolfs could be discs of tzeentch, using the sagas and all the options could make a Daemon Prince of any variety.

Blood Angels. A squad with its Sang Priest are instant berzerkers, as are Death Coy. Many characters are bad-arse enough to sub in as chaos. I would respect a 100% 'Raptor' army using the ability to take an all jump pack assault army.

Gk - are they tzeentch-esque with all the psychics, are they hth gods with glaives thus Khorne?

SM - could Vanilla Marines be an imediately pre-heresy army? Iron Warriors if you went heavy on Vindi and Techmarines fortifying stuff, along with thunderfire.

Necrons, a shuffling mass of rusty metal as a counts as Nurgle?

Eldar or DE - a prime candidate for Slaanesh speedy little high initiative?

You could see an aspect of Chaos in almost anything.

As to why you are ditching the army...

I am primarily a Chaos Space Marine Player. I have been since 2ed and yes the degradation of the codex to the latest edition, is the worst I have seen, and as a mainly Khorne army, prevented me using my pretty squads of 8, bloodletters etc. I feel your pain.

But, if you can't find competitive lists out of 10000 points there is something lacking in your selection. You mentioned the characters - I play at 1500 mostly and field Kharne + DP (MoK). They are an awesome tag-team and Kharne particularly doom to dreads and vehicles. If I went to 2000 like you stated, i would use Abaddon everytime. I don't know which other characters you may feel have been nerfed but these are enough.

The dual lash 3 oblit list still makes an appearance with hardcore gamers at UK GW GT - I took my chaos and went W3 D1 L1 against the full range of competitiveness cheesy spam you can think of.

The CSM troops are probably in the top 3 of selections for points, against SW. LR with daemonic possession is one of the best battle taxis and Defilers are awesome - as long as they stay away from dreads or 2d6 pen in hth. Berzerkers are ace (although Sang Priest has somewhat diluted this) and everyone knows how thorny Plague Marines can be.

I note you turn down the tyranids as well because of their codex. I would play almost any army because of good fluff counts as - the Throne of Skulls in Nov last year had a 100% gretchin army in hulks, as IG tanks. Awesome.

BUT - you must expect people to get sniffy about count-as purely because you don't like the codex. It will make people think you can't play the hand you were dealt, and not that you are a Chaos fan as you state, but merely a fan of winning who for wahtever reason doesn't invest in a new codex - just pops up using whatever may make you more likely to win.

Wrt tyranids as Alpha legion, I would play WYSIWYG counts-as - ie chaos as vanilla or SW. But not as a totally separate race as not only would you need to remember what each unti was but you would need to know the weapons - too confusing.

[BrokenWing]

Space Wolves are the ones I keep thinking about the most, for the reasons you bring up really.

As for my deep loathing of the Chaos Codex...

I'm not a tournament guy, so it's not (just) about winning. However, when an army that saw far more wins than losses goes from that to losing almost every game against just about anyone, including people I beat on a routine basis with other armies, there is a significant problem. Still, I tried for almost two years after the book came out to tweak the army so that I was playing an army I still enjoyed, matched my fluff and managed to win a few games. I was never able to make a list I was satisfied with. Since then I have moved to other projects (like my Fantasy Chaos, Dark Eldar and my loyalist marines).

While there are some really good characters still in the book, it's not about the named characters, that wasn't where I ran into a problem. Lord Romulus (the leader of the entire horde) was fielded using Abaddon's rules and did plenty fine, as did Sleen using the rules for Typhus. It was my other lords that all stopped working. When you have 10 lord models and 2 of them can actually do what they were designed to do, something is wrong.

One of my mainstay lord choices just stopped working entirely, there was no good named Slaanesh character to take rules from and his former abilities had all but vanished. One of the vital components of my army, a squad of always well placed Daemonettes, vanished into thin air. Gurpies, my Nurgle Daemon Prince since way back in the day, also ceased to function, since Daemon Princes got castrated and he just stopped being worth the points.

My Nurgle Terminators lacked *all* of the coolness of Legion Nurgle thanks to that rather odd codex, but more importantly, they just couldn't compete against the hordes of storm shields I have to deal with all the time. My Tzeentch terminators were a little more interesting at least.

Really what it came down to is I just couldn't make an army that fit my army's fluff and be competitive anymore and I thought it more silly to completely rewrite the back-story of an army that dated back to the first days of the last codex just to make myself feel better when fielding a list that had nothing to do with it just to break even than to just sell my army and move on to other projects until another codex came out.

I've kept all the character models and the big tanks (Baneblade, Titan) for when that next codex eventually comes out.

Lately though, playing my Fantasy Chaos has me really itching to start up my 40k Chaos army again. I already run an army using the Space Wolves codex, so I'm quite familiar with how I could run Chaos out of it, though I worry that I couldn't replicate my Sonic Blaster line that was so important back in 4th edition.

Of course selling my old army allso leaves me the ability to just make a new one, but I'm pretty invested in the fluff of my chaos army, especially since it has a long running feud with a friend's Mortifactor's army that dates back to Medusa 5. The last thing my Chaos army did was orchestrate the destruction of his army's recruiting world. There's alot of hate between the two armies and it used to make for really awesome games, because you knew that each model on each side had a connection to the other. One of his dreadnoughts is a chaplain that was brutally mauled by my Slaanesh lord protecting Lord Inquisitor Broken Wing during Medusa 5. My Forge World Keeper of Secrets had orchestrated the fall of both of the Chapters that made up the Chaos army and had slain dozens of Mortifactors. His army had to re-organize after Medusa 5 because my Chaos army killed several companies to a man. You can't replace that kind of awesome connection with a new army.

[somerandomdude]

I'd actually like to second Grey Knights.

Nurgle Terminators? Paladins - multi-wound with potentially FNP (which many people think is a wasted upgrade so you could take it and not get as many bad looks) They will virtually ignore small-arms fire, but still have trouble with S8+, just like Plague Marines.

Slaaneshi Daemons/Marines? Halberds! Swinging fast is what it's all about there.

Obviously Tzeentch is easy to explain.

Khorne units could have Falchions for a few extra attacks, as well as a character with Rad Grenades to make up for the lack of FC.

Daemon Princes (or Defilers) as Dreadknights.

Build-a-Lord options for HQs.

[BrokenWing]

That's really interesting, but the difficulty is all those psy powers. They make sense with Tzeentch but it's alot harder to explain why your nurgle terminators have psychic powers.

[somerandomdude]

Is it? Every chaos god provides gifts.

"Psychic test" is just the name used for a set of rules in the book so that we can all understand what the other person is talking about. It could be looked at as a test of devotion - the greater favor your unit has with their god, the more likely it will succeed. Nurgle is just helping his followers bring about destruction and decay. If you don't feel like using your imagination that far (why are you playing this game? or suggesting counts-as in the first place?) then Khorne and his followers are the only ones who truly go against psykers.

I almost forgot - Cultists (Henchmen squads with various set-ups) with an attached Inquisitor with Rad/Psychotroke Grenades = Aura of Decay and Pestilence.

[BrokenWing]

Hm...

HM....

I see.....

I must consider this further. I hadn't really looked at it from a GK perspective before.

[BrokenWing]

You know I was really psyched about doing this, sat down and tried to make a list...and just can't do it. I can't seem to bring myself to field a Chaos army out of some other book, no matter how well it would work, it just doesn't have the right feel to it.

[Denzark]

Good. Now try tweaking to get a competitive list out of whats left.