GW Models are NOT that expensive!

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

That's right I said it.

Now I know everybody is going to completely bombard this thread.

However I was browsing some other models like you see in a craft store like to make car planes ships and even some exotic sci-fi space ships and also some star wars hobby models and the prices were not much cheaper. and the quality of plastic usually sucks a big rhino butt

now given the quality of detail and material that GW produces in my opinion the are not too much more expensive maybe like $10-$15 more in comparative size. A battle ship the size of a baneblade or stoompa was $80 and a f-15 jet fighter was actually $50 compared to the $41.50 of the new Razorwing

With that said I do believe that the most of the metal models are out of hand. Just to take orks for example $37.50 for 5 Kommandos models or $20 dollars for one meganob is completly ridiculous. so to field 5 meganobs is $100 plus tax makes me want to puke.

so before everybody rants about the prices compare the quality and enjoyment you get from your hobby as opposed to watching your models sit on a shelf and collect dust.

Ok tear me apart :p lol

[Cyberscape7]

You know, it might seem odd but I completley agree!
My Dad got a replica of a Japanese warchip for christmas. £50 and it sits in his study.
Looks like you're not getting ripped apart alone I guess ;)

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

With that said I do believe that the most of the metal models are out of hand. Just to take orks for example $37.50 for 5 Kommandos models or $20 dollars for one meganob is completly ridiculous. so to field 5 meganobs is $100 plus tax makes me want to puke.



Eldargal keeps mentioning how Games Workshop metal prices are low for Wargaming metal products, and other such games where supprised at how low the cost was. Refer to her for where she got the info btw :P. Not that I dont agree btw, just sort of saying that it isnt all GW's fault for that. I agree with your thread + I am not a rich kid with tonnes of desposable money... I just save and buy in small quantaties :)

[Grailkeeper]

Well they're certainly not shy about raising them, It'd be interesting to compare the price of models that haven't changed in ten years, and compare their prices then and now, if anyone has access to that information?

[lattd]

It is not that they are expensive, i remember when a squad of wolf guard terminators cost you 8 a blister and it was one model a blister, yes you get slightly more in some box's terminators are now cheaper since they moved to plastic. Its the annual price rises that annoy people.

I remember when a box of LOTR plastics was £12 for 24 models its now £17. £5 in 3 years is above inflation.

[Demonus]

The price is relative. Take the amount you paid for the hobby, and divide it by the number of hours you have enjoyed assembling, painting, and playing with your plastic/metal army men. If this final number is reasonable to you, you spent your money wisely. If it is not, sell your plastic/metal army men, and find another hobby.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

The price is relative. Take the amount you paid for the hobby, and divide it by the number of hours you have enjoyed assembling, painting, and playing with your plastic/metal army men. If this final number is reasonable to you, you spent your money wisely. If it is not, sell your plastic/metal army men, and find another hobby.

Here Here :)

[Denzark]

I can empathise with the australians to a degree.

But in terms of prices I am not bothered, it is a premium product as GW state. Seeing as I already ebay the majority.

In one of the outrage thread someone put a link to a blog that showed inflation back to 2000-ish, and then compared 10 GW products and how their prices had gone. Whilst some were above inflation some where actually below!

So this makes sense to me although I can't be arsed to search for it to prove it:D

[BuFFo]

Yeah, GW models are expensive because you REQUIRE more of them to play.

My Hordes army has 21 models costing me about $200 for a standard army.

My Dark Eldar army has 75 models, costing me about $620 bucks for a 1500 standard army.

My Infinity Army cost me $100 bucks for 15 models for a large scale game.

Model to model, yeah, GW isn't ALL that much more expensive, but keep it all in context that yes, you require more models to play.

[wittdooley]

Yeah, GW models are expensive because you REQUIRE more of them to play.

My Hordes army has 21 models costing me about $200 for a standard army.

My Dark Eldar army has 75 models, costing me about $620 bucks for a 1500 standard army.

My Infinity Army cost me $100 bucks for 15 models for a large scale game.

Model to model, yeah, GW isn't ALL that much more expensive, but keep it all in context that yes, you require more models to play.

This is very true. Kill Team is very fun :-D.

What Hordes faction you run?

[Tamwulf]

This might surprise you, but I don't agree. Those other companies that make metal models do limited runs of maybe a couple hundred, or a thousand at best. GW makes thousands of models. The more you make, the cheaper they become to produce. They have a state of the art plastics factory using CAD software, a well trained, specialized work force, and deep pockets.

There is no arguing the quality of the minis. In general, GW has one thing going for them: consistency. They produce more top quality models then most other companies. On the other hand, I have seen some fantastic mini's that blow the best GW has to offer out the window.

It's interesting that you bring up the metal discussion, as GW has now stopped using metal. Everything is being converted over to plastic/resin. It's amazing that they are able to still provide such great quality in this format! However, they are using a less expensive material and manufacturing process for that mini and raising prices. :(

This is a hobby, and like all hobbies, it's as expensive or cheap as your checkbook allows. :D

[DrLove42]

I agree with this thread!

That is all

Maybe it happens with a slightly inflated budget to spend, compared to what some people might have spend.

[DadExtraordinaire]

This might surprise you, but I don't agree. Those other companies that make metal models do limited runs of maybe a couple hundred, or a thousand at best. GW makes thousands of models. The more you make, the cheaper they become to produce. They have a state of the art plastics factory using CAD software, a well trained, specialized work force, and deep pockets.

There is no arguing the quality of the minis. In general, GW has one thing going for them: consistency. They produce more top quality models then most other companies. On the other hand, I have seen some fantastic mini's that blow the best GW has to offer out the window.

It's interesting that you bring up the metal discussion, as GW has now stopped using metal. Everything is being converted over to plastic/resin. It's amazing that they are able to still provide such great quality in this format! However, they are using a less expensive material and manufacturing process for that mini and raising prices. :(

This is a hobby, and like all hobbies, it's as expensive or cheap as your checkbook allows. :D

IMHO historical gamers will always get better VFM than in particular GW games. The proliferation of high end quality plastic, metal and resin manufacturers with prices considerably cheaper than GW. The quality of the figures sometimes beat GW!

If you have a family, mortgage commitments etc then VFM is top of the list - excellent quality at cheap price, certainly compared to GW. You do not have to wait for the latest codex release to butcher half your army....Napoleonic British is Napoleonic British and has been for decades, however you could not say that for GW armies.

Consider the price of the new Grotesques...they are...well, grotesque....there is a warning in those prices there for Eldar players, particular for wraithguards and wraithlords.

[isotope99]

My personal bugbear is older kits where you clearly get less being inflated to match newer releases with more options.

I know GW are shooting for consistency but I'd feel short changed by some of the kits out there. The ones that spring to mind are the IG Basilisk (repackaged, but has few options), the Eldar Falcon (about to be increased to match the fire prism) and tyranid gaunts (small infantry with few options that you have to buy in hordes).

Overall though, the plastic kits feel just about OK on price.

[Lane]

Comparing GW minis to traditional plastic models on a price basis is pointless.

GW doeas great work on figures but a lot of that is due to the proportions. If limited to naturalistic designs GW would probably not look much better than companies like Dragon.

IMHO Dragon makes a much better vehicle model kit than GW. Fit is as good or better, surface detail is far better than GW. Whne you consider a WWII tank or modern jet fighter has to look like the actual subject but a GW kit can be re-designed if it is too difficult to make then GW kit is not that impressive.

[bonedale]

when you try to find alternative models for GWs in your 40k army, you learn just how "normal" priced GW is.

My personal take is they need to drop the stores entirely. Let someone else carry that cost. Someone who deals with all game systems, etc. All that staff and store space is causing GW to try and scramble to cover cost in the one place they can.

The whole aussie issue, seriously, drop the stores, staff, etc. and just sell models to resellers. Not shut down the continent to try and keep a couple of stores a float.

[newtoncain]

Sure, Sure,
Just like GAS (Petro) is not that EXPENSIVE:eek:

exhails:cool:

[jorz192]

For a box of scourges it costs 25.00 USD for only five models. The miniatures are expensive especially vehicles. And as for tanks a year ago I bought a perfect substitute for a basilisk from "Target" for ten dollars.

The miniatures are expensive even considering their quality.

[bonedale]

Well I guess they are too expensive, even if they are average or above average price. I think the days of owning multiple armies is over. Build, sell, build again.

At least GW keeps the value during the "sell" period.

[SotonShades]

This might surprise you, but I don't agree. Those other companies that make metal models do limited runs of maybe a couple hundred, or a thousand at best. GW makes thousands of models. The more you make, the cheaper they become to produce. They have a state of the art plastics factory using CAD software, a well trained, specialized work force, and deep pockets.

This is only partially true, especially when it comes to metal models. While the originial sculpt only has to be done once. A lot of smaller companies tend to cast as many models as they can from a mold before the deteriation in quality becomes too great. GW has the fan base and financial backing to be able to retool again and again, but the cost of doing so each time still remains the same and is a predominant factor in the cost of each miniature, sometimes almost matching the cost of the metal in some of the shorter product runs.


This is a hobby, and like all hobbies, it's as expensive or cheap as your checkbook allows. :D

This I definitely agree with. As others have said, we may pay more for our base materials than some do for other hobbies, but unlike going down the pub and buying many pints of beer, we still having something to show for our pennies that can be used over and again.

[eldargal]

I'm trying to find the source for that, for some reason mozilla keeps deleting my bookmarks which makes it hard to keep track of things.

Basically another miniature producer had to up the prices on his metal range significantly, and mentioned converting as many to resin (expensive procedure apparently) over time. He said something along the lines of not being able to believe how GW could offer nine pound metal blisters, (probably economy of scale).

On a per figure basis GW models are still quite cheap, especially when you consider the quality. Yes you need more to get larger armies but contrary to popular opinion 500-750pt games are perfectly fun and you can scale up over time. You don't need to have 1500 points right away, you can if you have the money but you don't need to.



Eldargal keeps mentioning how Games Workshop metal prices are low for Wargaming metal products, and other such games where supprised at how low the cost was. Refer to her for where she got the info btw :P. Not that I dont agree btw, just sort of saying that it isnt all GW's fault for that. I agree with your thread + I am not a rich kid with tonnes of desposable money... I just save and buy in small quantaties :)

[DadExtraordinaire]

Comparing GW minis to traditional plastic models on a price basis is pointless.

GW doeas great work on figures but a lot of that is due to the proportions. If limited to naturalistic designs GW would probably not look much better than companies like Dragon.

IMHO Dragon makes a much better vehicle model kit than GW. Fit is as good or better, surface detail is far better than GW. Whne you consider a WWII tank or modern jet fighter has to look like the actual subject but a GW kit can be re-designed if it is too difficult to make then GW kit is not that impressive.
You can compare, as many of the GW and ex-GW figure designers and sculptors are enjoying huge success in the historical arena.

Compare Perry's Miniatures (Historical) with GW - the sculpts and detail is on par or better than GW. Take a look at Warlord and Victrix......as well.

I think you will be surprised by the accurate proportions and anatomical correctness of the figures with the amazing amount of detail currently out for historical wargamers, at what I consider, reasonably priced.

[Xas]

compare it to other hobbies and you will realise how cheap wargameing actually is.

the nearest combatant prolly is PC gameing but it really doesnt come near with ~2k€ for a high-end PC (usually lasts 1-3 years depending on how well you can live with playing on worse and worse settings over time) and a total of at least ~150€ per month for internet and fresh games.

and then consider a "real men's" hobby like car tuning. the entrance price really speaks for itself :)

[TheRise]

I have been getting rather annoyed with GW lately. Things like not answering to our independant stores orders. And also the fact that each year they make a price increase, as the economy is getting crapper, and more people are dropping out. And also the molds that they use are not realy tht expensive, yet they charge over double what it costs to make them.
But then I compare it to how much it costs for my bmx and my bmx racing. Then I realise that over one year, Wargaming in general is cheaper.
Perhaps you need to step a litle further back, to appreiate the actual cost, if you can budget this right.

[DrLove42]

Its a question of comparison

I regualry drop £50-£100 a month on 360 games, and don't think about it. And in the last month i've paid nearly £200 for a huge host of new DE

And yeah, compare to other hobbies it gets incredibky cheap. Professional Photgraphy? Paintballing? Watersports? Music Instruments?

And remember...GW are a buisness. They charge what they have to to stay afloat. With the VAT rise in the UK, rising costs of fuel for shipping and deliveries and running a retail high street chain on an international level costs money!

[Gir]

the nearest combatant prolly is PC gameing but it really doesnt come near with ~2k€ for a high-end PC (usually lasts 1-3 years depending on how well you can live with playing on worse and worse settings over time) and a total of at least ~150€ per month for internet and fresh games.

Really common misconception. Game visuals have stagnated heavily in the past 3-4 years because of how appaling slow consoles are, and 99% of games are developed for consoles first.

The biggest example of this is Crysis 1 looking better then Crysis 2. Basically, iif you bought a high end computer 4 years ago, you're still playing everything on near full settings.

[gendoikari87]

That's right I said it.

Now I know everybody is going to completely bombard this thread.

However I was browsing some other models like you see in a craft store like to make car planes ships and even some exotic sci-fi space ships and also some star wars hobby models and the prices were not much cheaper. and the quality of plastic usually sucks a big rhino butt

now given the quality of detail and material that GW produces in my opinion the are not too much more expensive maybe like $10-$15 more in comparative size. A battle ship the size of a baneblade or stoompa was $80 and a f-15 jet fighter was actually $50 compared to the $41.50 of the new Razorwing

With that said I do believe that the most of the metal models are out of hand. Just to take orks for example $37.50 for 5 Kommandos models or $20 dollars for one meganob is completly ridiculous. so to field 5 meganobs is $100 plus tax makes me want to puke.

so before everybody rants about the prices compare the quality and enjoyment you get from your hobby as opposed to watching your models sit on a shelf and collect dust.

Ok tear me apart :p lol
um what hobby store are you going to? cause i can usually get something twice as big as GW stuff for the same price in there, OR twice as detailed. Those models you get in hobby stores are usually high detail anyway. as they are purely meant for display. unless you get the super cheap crap ones.... which are about GW quality in detail. Good day.

[fuzzbuket]

COUGH
http://www.kallamity.com/
COUGH


yes i want one but the prices are insane :(


people say GW is pricey because the look at things like humbrol... heck even warmahordes is prices when you look at single models !

[Psychosplodge]

the nearest combatant prolly is PC gameing but it really doesnt come near with ~2k€ for a high-end PC (usually lasts 1-3 years depending on how well you can live with playing on worse and worse settings over time) and a total of at least ~150€ per month for internet and fresh games.
)


Really common misconception. Game visuals have stagnated heavily in the past 3-4 years because of how appaling slow consoles are, and 99% of games are developed for consoles first.

The biggest example of this is Crysis 1 looking better then Crysis 2. Basically, iif you bought a high end computer 4 years ago, you're still playing everything on near full settings.

You can build a high spec gaming pc for £1k easily.
There's no necessity to spend anywhere near that monthly cost on games/internet.
And Gir is right the console market has stagnated, meaning the upgrades aren't necessary because they're still using directX 9 technology.

[eldargal]

Another reason to hate consoles then.

GW is cheap compared to my other hobbies. When I'm paying an equal amount for a Games Workshop army as a gothic plate harness (£30-50k+), then I'll worry.:rolleyes:

[wittdooley]

um what hobby store are you going to? cause i can usually get something twice as big as GW stuff for the same price in there, OR twice as detailed. Those models you get in hobby stores are usually high detail anyway. as they are purely meant for display. unless you get the super cheap crap ones.... which are about GW quality in detail. Good day.

Yup, I'm calling bull****z on this one.

@eldargirl - What is this "gothic plate harness" you speak of?

[Morgan Darkstar]

Yup, I'm calling bull****z on this one.

I agree "unless the shop he is talking about is ran by a Leprechaun in a fez with a white suit"

GW products are a high quality and are affordable.

[Psychosplodge]

@eldargirl - What is this "gothic plate harness" you speak of?

+1

[Morgan Darkstar]

@eldargirl - What is this "gothic plate harness" you speak of?

i believe it is plate armour of some kind, and at that price is probably tailor-made to your size and combat ready rather than cheap flimsy replica armour made of tin foil.

i Approve :D

[Aldramelech]

Yup, I'm calling bull****z on this one.

I think not actually. Im doing Secrets of the Third Reich atm and needed to buy a late war Sherman for my Americans. I found what I was looking for in the Hobbyboss 1/48 Sherman M4A3E8. This kit has a fantastic amount of detail and even comes with etched brass pieces, far better then any GW tank kit and all for £8.50! Yes £8.50!

As has been mentioned already in this thread historical plastic sets are being made with more figures, better sculpts and half the price of GW. From a fantasy point of view I challenge anyone to look at the Perry Twins Wars of the Rose's Mercenary Infantry box set and tell me they are not better then any GW Imperial infantry figure, If I was interested in doing an Empire army I wouldn't be looking anywhere else.

This is just a couple of examples of the stupid prices GW charge, I can list many more, and its the "thats ok because its the best quality product on the market" argument that is bull****, cause they are not the best anymore and haven't been for some time.

[Psychosplodge]

EEEEK I thought that was only £500-£1500 a section, how many pieces is in a suit to make 30k?....

[BuFFo]

Oh noes! Let's compare non table top war gaming hobbies to the table top war gaming hobby to show how cheap GW models are!

There is a problem when people have to compare boating to GW's models prices to justify GWs model prices.

Oh noes! My house cost me $165k! GW could easily charge $300 a model and it would still be cheap in comparison, right?

LOL

[eldargal]

Gothic plate:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Medieval%20European%20Armour/Gothic_Armour_c1470.jpg

You can get cheaper display harnesses, but for a properly made harness made to your measurements it costs quite a lot. £15k for a relatively plain harness with minimal fluting £50k for a very ornate or Maximilian style harness.

Maximilian style:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1189/1132008001_010fed0997.jpg

It is actually cheaper to buy an original Maximilian plate harness of any quality than to have a reproduction made. But as original harnesses are rare and irreplaceable, obviously you can't fight in one. Much to modern armourers delight.:rolleyes:

[Morgan Darkstar]

I think not actually. Im doing Secrets of the Third Reich atm and needed to buy a late war Sherman for my Americans. I found what I was looking for in the Hobbyboss 1/48 Sherman M4A3E8. This kit has a fantastic amount of detail and even comes with etched brass pieces, far better then any GW tank kit and all for £8.50! Yes £8.50!

As has been mentioned already in this thread historical plastic sets are being made with more figures, better sculpts and half the price of GW. From a fantasy point of view I challenge anyone to look at the Perry Twins Wars of the Rose's Mercenary Infantry box set and tell me they are not better then any GW Imperial infantry figure, If I was interested in doing an Empire army I wouldn't be looking anywhere else.

This is just a couple of examples of the stupid prices GW charge, I can list many more, and its the "thats ok because its the best quality product on the market" argument that is bull****, cause they are not the best anymore and haven't been for some time.

would this be the tank model you are talking about?

http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/misc/vehicles/tmc/tmcez8.htm

personaly if it is i would say the gw stuff is better, however its hard to make a comparison as one is a model of a real thing and the other is essentially a toy.

[gendoikari87]

Another reason to hate consoles then.

GW is cheap compared to my other hobbies. When I'm paying an equal amount for a Games Workshop army as a gothic plate harness (£30-50k+), then I'll worry.:rolleyes:

um..... you'll also be the only one playing at those prices.


look the bottom line comes down to GW and that they believe they are immune to competition. They aren't. For a while they were the only ones, so yeah they were immune, small little ones cooked up in a garage couldn't compete. but things are vastly different. Warmahordes is growing and half the cost for comprable level armies. that's a huge advantage.

[gendoikari87]

I think not actually. Im doing Secrets of the Third Reich atm and needed to buy a late war Sherman for my Americans. I found what I was looking for in the Hobbyboss 1/48 Sherman M4A3E8. This kit has a fantastic amount of detail and even comes with etched brass pieces, far better then any GW tank kit and all for £8.50! Yes £8.50!

As has been mentioned already in this thread historical plastic sets are being made with more figures, better sculpts and half the price of GW. From a fantasy point of view I challenge anyone to look at the Perry Twins Wars of the Rose's Mercenary Infantry box set and tell me they are not better then any GW Imperial infantry figure, If I was interested in doing an Empire army I wouldn't be looking anywhere else.

This is just a couple of examples of the stupid prices GW charge, I can list many more, and its the "thats ok because its the best quality product on the market" argument that is bull****, cause they are not the best anymore and haven't been for some time.

+1

GW is kinda like Mercedes or Ferrari, your paying a lot for name brand now.

[Morgan Darkstar]

um..... you'll also be the only one playing at those prices.


look the bottom line comes down to GW and that they believe they are immune to competition. They aren't. For a while they were the only ones, so yeah they were immune, small little ones cooked up in a garage couldn't compete. but things are vastly different. Warmahordes is growing and half the cost for comprable level armies. that's a huge advantage.

look i am not trying to put down warmachine however it has been going 8 years and still only has a tiny fraction of the playerbase that Warhammer has.

the truth is GW knows they can increase prices because they don't have any serious competition.

[eldargal]

You realise that was a joke, right? I thought that was blatently obvious.

'Comparable armies', you mean six guys and a warcaster.:rolleyes: Warmachine is a skirmish game, comparing it to WFB or 40k is silly, comparing it to Necromunda or Mordheim would be a better bet. Oh and look, GW is still cheaper. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if PP goes down the corporate road at some point, they are already struggling to produce enough miniatures to meet demand, if they want to continue to grow their market share they have to grow as a company too.



um..... you'll also be the only one playing at those prices.


look the bottom line comes down to GW and that they believe they are immune to competition. They aren't. For a while they were the only ones, so yeah they were immune, small little ones cooked up in a garage couldn't compete. but things are vastly different. Warmahordes is growing and half the cost for comprable level armies. that's a huge advantage.

[gendoikari87]

You realise that was a joke, right? I thought that was blatently obvious.

'Comparable armies', you mean six guys and a warcaster.:rolleyes: Warmachine is a skirmish game, comparing it to WFB or 40k is silly, comparing it to Necromunda or Mordheim would be a better bet. Oh and look, GW is still cheaper. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if PP goes down the corporate road at some point, they are already struggling to produce enough miniatures to meet demand, if they want to continue to grow their market share they have to grow as a company too.

try again at something like 25 guys and a warcaster compared to something like 30-50 guys and a few tanks

oh and lookit this, 23 bucks FROM JAPAN 1/35th scale

http://static.hlj.com/images/acd/acd13208.jpg

[Morgan Darkstar]

GW is kinda like Mercedes or Ferrari, your paying a lot for name brand now.

Yes you hit the nail on the head GW is a brandname and i choose to buy the models because i want GW products not someone else's, regardless of price or quality.


try again at something like 25 guys and a warcaster compared to something like 30-50 guys and a few tanks

oh and lookit this, 23 bucks FROM JAPAN 1/35th scale

http://static.hlj.com/images/acd/acd13208.jpg

thats nice, but it's not GW

[eldargal]

On a per miniature basis GW models are cheaper, so those 25 guys are going to cost a similar amount to GWs thirty. Its one of those unfortunate facts snotty little Warmachine elitists* try and ignore. They hate it when I point out people who work for PP still buy GW products too.:rolleyes:


*I'm not calling you one of these gendoikari87, just stating an observation on those I've encountered myself.

try again at something like 25 guys and a warcaster compared to something like 30-50 guys and a few tanks

oh and lookit this, 23 bucks FROM JAPAN 1/35th scale

http://static.hlj.com/images/acd/acd13208.jpg

[Aldramelech]

Yes you hit the nail on the head GW is a brandname and i choose to buy the models because i want GW products not someone else's, regardless of price or quality.



thats nice, but it's not GW

Then your a Mug with more money then sense

[eldargal]

GW make an excellent product, backed by some of the most interesting background out there (in my opinion). Wanting that over PPs range and admittedly excellent rules doesn't make you a mug, it is just a difference of opinion.

[wittdooley]

That armor is really, really cool. I do not have a similarly cool hobby. I play rugby....

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the plastic used in those military vehicle models a lot thinner than what GW uses? I haven't built one in quite some time, but I seem to recall it being quite a bit thinner.

Also #2: I've built and painted some of the Wargames Factory historicals (from all accounts some of the best on the market as I understand it for historicals) and they aren't in the same ballpark of detail as the GW fantasy miniatures. YMMV.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Then your a Mug with more money then sense

yay! i love to be told im wrong because of the choice of the products i buy, next you will be telling me im a mug because i choose persil over ariel to wash my socks. :D


GW make an excellent product, backed by some of the most interesting background out there (in my opinion). Wanting that over PPs range and admittedly excellent rules doesn't make you a mug, it is just a difference of opinion.

thanks, eldargal :)

[Aldramelech]

would this be the tank model you are talking about?

http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/misc/vehicles/tmc/tmcez8.htm

personaly if it is i would say the gw stuff is better, however its hard to make a comparison as one is a model of a real thing and the other is essentially a toy.

That would be the model, but what did you do? Go and find the worst possible paintjob example you could find? Mine don't look anything like that!

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/andyblackmore/100_0891.jpg

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/andyblackmore/100_0890.jpg

(Modified slightly for Wierd WW2, upgunned and given an IR searchlight, otherwise the basic kit)

[DrLove42]

End of the day it boils down to playing what you want to play.

I play 40k because i love it. To me the game system works well, the models are wonderful, the rules are good, the background is immersive and its what my friends play.

Sure you could experience that in another system. But I don't want to play another system. All the people throwing their toys out of the poram over a price rise need to consider if the system they enjoy is worth the money. For me it is. Hence why i've order over £200 of new DE in the last month. And will order £400-£500 on FW Eldar when the book is released

And to the people saying "I'm selling everything and stopping full stop" I say Bye bye. If you're willing to stop playing with models and rules you loved 2 months ago, just because any new models cost a little bit more then you obviously never really enjoyed the game

Also note I've not described it as the "hobby". The hobby can be satisfied in any of the systems. And frankly...GW do it best for me. Particularly in the UK, no other system is as widespread or succesful as them.

And I agree with eldargal...PP will go more commercial eventually. They will need to to match demand as it grows. But they will never have the beginners market in the same way GW do, particularly in this country. And when PP put up their next price raise I hope their fanbases riots as well

[Morgan Darkstar]

That would be the model, but what did you do? Go and find the worst possible paintjob example you could find? Mine don't look anything like that!

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/andyblackmore/100_0891.jpg

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/andyblackmore/100_0890.jpg

(Modified slightly for Wierd WW2, upgunned and given an IR searchlight, otherwise the basic kit)

Yes Adramelech you got me, I deliberately went and found the worst possible photo i could find,:rolleyes:

nice paintjob btw.

[eldargal]

Historial kits don't help me much, I want Eldar/Dark Eldar/SoB/Empire/High Elves/Etc, not because they ar GW but because I adore the background and aesthetic. I'm willing to pay a premium for that.

[Aldramelech]

Historial kits don't help me much, I want Eldar/Dark Eldar/SoB/Empire/High Elves/Etc, not because they ar GW but because I adore the background and aesthetic. I'm willing to pay a premium for that.

Yes I know that, what Im saying is that GW are taking the piss charging you what they do for them, when quite clearly a quality plastic kit needn't cost a full suit of plate.

[gendoikari87]

GW make an excellent product, backed by some of the most interesting background out there (in my opinion). Wanting that over PPs range and admittedly excellent rules doesn't make you a mug, it is just a difference of opinion.

GW's extensive background is all it has going for it these days. it's constantly coming out with **** models. Sure its go teh razorwing, but then it has the wracks.... and grots.... and the stormraven.....

there is a historical precedent for what GW's going through and its the great american car companies at the beggining of the 70's JUST after honda and toyata appeared.

[eldargal]

Well its that whole luxury goods thing, you are buying into an idea not just a product. Like champagne vs sparking wine. Sure GWs stuff is expensive, but it has a unique aesthetic that I love (mostly, I don't like all armies), is high quality and has a fascinating background that I'm addicted to.


Er, taste is subjective. The wracks are nice, the Grotesque is nice it is just absurd there is only one. The rest of the DE range is superb, Space Marines are nice, Eldar are beautiful, Imperial Guard are impressive, Orks are interesting, etc etc. The Stormraven is ok, it certainly fits the aesthetic. GW does produce some bad models sometimes, but they are the exception.


GW's extensive background is all it has going for it these days. it's constantly coming out with **** models. Sure its go teh razorwing, but then it has the wracks.... and grots.... and the stormraven.....

there is a historical precedent for what GW's going through and its the great american car companies at the beggining of the 70's JUST after honda and toyata appeared.

[wittdooley]

GW's extensive background is all it has going for it these days. it's constantly coming out with **** models. Sure its go teh razorwing, but then it has the wracks.... and grots.... and the stormraven.....

there is a historical precedent for what GW's going through and its the great american car companies at the beggining of the 70's JUST after honda and toyata appeared.

TROOOOOLLLLLLLL!

Constantly coming out with crap models? You're really funny.

[Aldramelech]

TROOOOOLLLLLLLL!

Constantly coming out with crap models? You're really funny.

Thats his opinion (and I happen to agree with him), you've got your own very special Fan Boy slant on things and thats up to you.

[wittdooley]

Thats his opinion (and I happen to agree with him), you've got your own very special Fan Boy slant on things and thats up to you.

Dude, that's not even an objective opinion though. I value opinions, but that one is simply wrong from any objective viewpoint.

"Constantly" implies that they release crappy models on a regular basis. That simply isn't true. Let's go through the past 3 releases:

Tomb Kings-
All of the new Finecasts look nice. I don't like the Aphophas or the Necropolis Knights models, but you can hardly call them crappy. The Sphinx is a good looking model, as are the Tomb Guard

Grey Knights
Everything in this line looks good. Regardless whether or not you LIKE the aesthetic of the Dreadknight, it is a nice model, easy to assemble, and looks good on its own.

Dark Eldar
Best GW line, period. I have not personally seen any better looking plastics in existance. They are gorgeous.

Seriously, where is the "crap" in this lineup. Moreso, where is the 'constant crap.' Because I defend against an ignorant statement makes me fanboy? Seems that term is tossed out when you don't have a better argument.

And FWIW, I have tons of models from tons of companies, most recent purchases being a few Dust Models from Parente's website and a bunch of Smart Max Smog 1888 models; I have a decent eye for solid looking mins, and the ability to discern "crap" from the otherwise. It's not hard to objectively say that GW doesn't "constantly make crap."

EDIT: And please, I'm open to a discussion about the "constant crap" models and why you consider them so, so provide some examples.

[Aldramelech]

Dude, that's not even an objective opinion though. I value opinions, but that one is simply wrong from any objective viewpoint.

"Constantly" implies that they release crappy models on a regular basis. That simply isn't true. Let's go through the past 3 releases:

Tomb Kings-
All of the new Finecasts look nice. I don't like the Aphophas or the Necropolis Knights models, but you can hardly call them crappy. The Sphinx is a good looking model, as are the Tomb Guard

Grey Knights
Everything in this line looks good. Regardless whether or not you LIKE the aesthetic of the Dreadknight, it is a nice model, easy to assemble, and looks good on its own.

Dark Eldar
Best GW line, period. I have not personally seen any better looking plastics in existance. They are gorgeous.

Seriously, where is the "crap" in this lineup. Moreso, where is the 'constant crap.' Because I defend against an ignorant statement makes me fanboy? Seems that term is tossed out when you don't have a better argument.

And FWIW, I have tons of models from tons of companies, most recent purchases being a few Dust Models from Parente's website and a bunch of Smart Max Smog 1888 models; I have a decent eye for solid looking mins, and the ability to discern "crap" from the otherwise. It's not hard to objectively say that GW doesn't "constantly make crap."

EDIT: And please, I'm open to a discussion about the "constant crap" models and why you consider them so, so provide some examples.

In your opinion................

I personally dont rate any of the stuff you have mentioned, I think at lot of what GW churns out now is overstylised, stupid looking junk with mold lines the size of the San Andres Fault.

But that aside I think he was refering to Vehicle kits specifically.

[Psychosplodge]

yay! i love to be told im wrong because of the choice of the products i buy, next you will be telling me im a mug because i choose persil over ariel to wash my socks. :D



thanks, eldargal :)

You fool AERIAL is clearly superior to persil for sock washing, don't you know anything?

But seriously, the quality of the models has declined in recent years, the ridiculous penitent engines, the new grey knight thing that is essentially the same concept model with different fluff are the biggest examples,
the awful characters at the blood angels release are another (I initially liked them, but looking at them now they just look silly.)

Where's the quality like some of the necromunda characters, the imperial noble from warhammer quest, the terminator captain?

IDK anymore...

[wittdooley]

You fool AERIAL is clearly superior to persil for sock washing, don't you know anything?

But seriously, the quality of the models has declined in recent years, the ridiculous penitent engines, the new grey knight thing that is essentially the same concept model with different fluff are the biggest examples,
the awful characters at the blood angels release are another (I initially liked them, but looking at them now they just look silly.)

Where's the quality like some of the necromunda characters, the imperial noble from warhammer quest, the terminator captain?

IDK anymore...

I have to admit I'm confused by this quote. You're saying that the Necromunda models are better than the Blood Angels and Grey Knights models?

The Imperial Noble is nice...but it's no different than any of the new Empire stuff, and if anything has a more static pose.

Again, I think a reasonble person can agree that while an aesthetic may not please you, you can't objectively call it crap. You can objectively look at art, and that's what these are. The sculpts on the new GW stuff are of high detail and quality, regardless whether or not you like the aesthetic.

[BrokenWing]

This kind of non-sense drives me up the wall to the point of missing the good old days when the elitists in town were the Fantasy players turning up their nose at a game for not having armor save modifiers and movement trays.

Trying to talk with *half* or more of the warmachine players in this area is like beating your head into an arrogant wall. "You should play this game because it's cheaper and you don't need to play as big of a game."

1. It isn't.

2. I like big games.

I'll never forget being in the store playing a game and there were warmachine players playing as well and having someone actually turn to someone else and say: "What are *they* doing here?"

Seriously?

If you like Warmachine, go play Warmachine. It has some nice models I might buy one or two of for use in DnD or as a conversion for a Fantasy army. Quit taking a piss all over the people that don't like your game. I have no problem with someone playing Warmachine, people should play what they want and I have never *ever* told a Warmachine player they should play 40k or Fantasy, I find it extremely arrogant and rude to be told I should play their game by people that don't even understand my tastes or know my name.

As for GW constantly producing crap models, if that were true they wouldn't exist.

[Aldramelech]

yay! i love to be told im wrong because of the choice of the products i buy, next you will be telling me im a mug because i choose persil over ariel to wash my socks. :D



thanks, eldargal :)

No what you said is that you are willing to buy a product regardless of quality or price, which is lets face it, galactically stupid.

Oh and for the record, I DONT play Warmachine, Mallathingymabob or anything similar.

[BrokenWing]

So you don't play anything? You're just here to piss on everyone? Nice.

[Psychosplodge]

I have to admit I'm confused by this quote. You're saying that the Necromunda models are better than the Blood Angels and Grey Knights models?

The Imperial Noble is nice...but it's no different than any of the new Empire stuff, and if anything has a more static pose.

Again, I think a reasonble person can agree that while an aesthetic may not please you, you can't objectively call it crap. You can objectively look at art, and that's what these are. The sculpts on the new GW stuff are of high detail and quality, regardless whether or not you like the aesthetic.

Let me clarify,

I generally liked the last lot of greyknight's but preferred the original terminators from way back when,
but I think the dreadknight looks like some ridiculous overgrown bondage device,
The penitent engine is a silly model and basicly of the same form.

The characters of the new blood angels are all lets stick wings on everything that'll be corkin'. the masked gold angel thing is just - well the models are to wh40k miniatures what James Swallow's blood angels books are to the fluff,

Yes I think some of the necromunda models are better, more fitting to the background than the new releases, I've no issue with static poses.

The new stuff is meant to be using the same moulds so how can it be any more detailed? It may have the potential to be when cast appropriately but you won't see that much difference until new models are sculptured.

And yes this is subjective but so is "the dark elder range is the best sculpt ever"

(And I only collect GW ranges, no other systems, I do Love the fluff of 40K)

[BrokenWing]

Man it is hard to tell who plays 40k on here. People will trash the models or the company or both left right and center and then turn around and tell you they play it.

So confused.

[wittdooley]

And yes this is subjective but so is "the dark elder range is the best sculpt ever"

(And I only collect GW ranges, no other systems, I do Love the fluff of 40K)

You've got me there. Though I think you can look at them, look at how well and how dynamically many of them are sculpeted, and say, "thats a better sculpt than Mephiston." Which I think is an awful model. He looks Mr. Perfect from 80's wrestling.

As for the New BA: You don't like the new Lemartes or Gabriel Seth? I think those two models are simply badass, both in their detailing and their posing.

[Aldramelech]

So you don't play anything? You're just here to piss on everyone? Nice.

I play FUBAR, Very British Civil War, Secrets of the Third Reich, Strange Grogg, Flames of War, Incursion, Mordhiem, WFB, 40K, Blackpowder, Gaslight, Wings of War and a whole raft of other historical rule sets since you ask.

If your feeling pissed on brother, thats your hang up.

[wittdooley]

I play FUBAR, Very British Civil War, Secrets of the Third Reich, Strange Grogg, Flames of War, Incursion, Mordhiem, WFB, 40K, Blackpowder, Gaslight, Wings of War and a whole raft of other historical rule sets since you ask.

If your feeling pissed on brother, thats your hang up.

Hey now, lets save the Golden Showers for the adult section of the lounge.

Those Incursion models are really cool; how are they to put together.

[Psychosplodge]

Man it is hard to tell who plays 40k on here. People will trash the models or the company or both left right and center and then turn around and tell you they play it.

So confused.

Being a fan of something doesn't involve blindly liking everything, that's fanaticism and where fanboy's, religious lunatics and ****'s live.
Anyone can pick and choose which bits of something they like and which bit they dislike.


You've got me there. Though I think you can look at them, look at how well and how dynamically many of them are sculpeted, and say, "thats a better sculpt than Mephiston." Which I think is an awful model. He looks Mr. Perfect from 80's wrestling.

As for the New BA: You don't like the new Lemartes or Gabriel Seth? I think those two models are simply badass, both in their detailing and their posing.

The Sanguinar is the one I particularly dislike, but the style is through the entire elite/hq range
Mephiston is dated but a modern update would probably bring it into the same style which IMHO, lol,
isn't a massive improvement.

I recall an older seth (unless it was a conversion) that was less "pretty" and more in keeping with fleshtearer fluff, I don't think I've ever liked lemartes!

Till laters, the pub beckons....

[BrokenWing]

I find it exceptionally difficult to believe people play a game they spend so much time saying quite clearly they don't like. It just seems to me that if you didn't like the models for a game so much as to go around calling them crap, you wouldn't play the game. I'm sure you play (as I don't see why you'd lie about it) but it just seems very strange to me.

It would be like me saying I really don't like small games or steam punk and then saying I play Warmachine all the time. Except in this case I don't.

[BrokenWing]

Being a fan of something doesn't involve blindly liking everything, that's fanaticism and where fanboy's, religious lunatics and ****'s live.
Anyone can pick and choose which bits of something they like and which bit they dislike.




Naturally, but the last several posts (or pages really) didn't indicate any actual *liking* until just a moment ago (in forum speak anyway). You can see why someone would think you don't like something when you spend alot of your time in a particular thread talking about how much you don't like it and very little of it talking about what you do like.

[Aldramelech]

I find it exceptionally difficult to believe people play a game they spend so much time saying quite clearly they don't like. It just seems to me that if you didn't like the models for a game so much as to go around calling them crap, you wouldn't play the game. I'm sure you play (as I don't see why you'd lie about it) but it just seems very strange to me.

It would be like me saying I really don't like small games or steam punk and then saying I play Warmachine all the time. Except in this case I don't.

I haven't played 40K in over a year, I now use my IG army to play FUBAR. I haven't played WFB in over a year and am thinking of selling my Dwarf army, I didn't buy 8th edition and have no plans or desire to do so.
I no longer buy anything from GW, including paints etc. I do not like the stupid prices, I do not like new rule's editions that are designed to sell more stuff rather then improve the game and I do not like the way GW conducts itself in General (The recent trade terms are a case in point).

The other games systems I mentioned (especially SotTR, Incursion, VBCW) are now my main focus.


Incursion figures are a joy to paint and require little assembly.

[gendoikari87]

That would be the model, but what did you do? Go and find the worst possible paintjob example you could find? Mine don't look anything like that!

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/andyblackmore/100_0891.jpg

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx135/andyblackmore/100_0890.jpg

(Modified slightly for Wierd WW2, upgunned and given an IR searchlight, otherwise the basic kit)

Dude you made a firefly. Nice.

Know what I really want?

vietnam/cold war era 28mm wargame.

[gendoikari87]

In your opinion................

I personally dont rate any of the stuff you have mentioned, I think at lot of what GW churns out now is overstylised, stupid looking junk with mold lines the size of the San Andres Fault.

But that aside I think he was refering to Vehicle kits specifically.

out of all that, only the sepulchral stalkers, the big guy from the TK, and the razorwing are good. IMO, the rest of the DE line is ****.

and as for Grey knights. They were already designed well. Transferring them to plastic doesn't take a genius and they manage to **** up the few good things they have that are new. like the new psycannons, the psilencer and the falchions. all are overly simple or just look boring. everthing from the old design still rocks but that was from back when GW cared.

[wittdooley]

out of all that, only the sepulchral stalkers, the big guy from the TK, and the razorwing are good. IMO, the rest of the DE line is ****.

and as for Grey knights. They were already designed well. Transferring them to plastic doesn't take a genius and they manage to **** up the few good things they have that are new. like the new psycannons, the psilencer and the falchions. all are overly simple or just look boring. everthing from the old design still rocks but that was from back when GW cared.

Well enjoy that Island by yourself. You're the only person I've ever heard say the DE line is crap.

@Psycho -- So we've pinpointed that you don't care for the baroque style of armour. Fine. Doesn't mean it's poorly made or ill-conceived.

[Aldramelech]

Dude you made a firefly. Nice.

Know what I really want?

vietnam/cold war era 28mm wargame.

Its better then that :D Thats the 90mm gun from an M26 Pershing. The US did experiment with this toward the end of the war as it was felt the M26 was too heavy for all ocasions but it was feared it would slow M26 production and the war was all but over, so it got dropped. But its 1949 and the war goes on........

I call it M4A4E8(90).

Plenty of people doing 28mm Nam out there.

[Daemonette666]

I saw the "NEW" GW fine detail Resin Models that a whole heap of pro GW members were touting as going to reduce the cost of GW miniatures. It has not. In fact it has made them more expensive. An Abaddon metal miniature valued at AU$35.00 in my local gaming shop has been replaced by a resin model that costs AU$40.00 and the staff can only say that it has more detail, and worth the extra cost.

With prices due to go up in another 2 days, it has only proven my point that GW is one of the most expensive gaming companies about. Since you need more of their miniatures to play games as opposed to other gaming systems, this only escalates the problem gamers have in either starting a new army or expanding their armies to incorporate the "NEW" GW miniatures they push you to buy at their retail stores.

They should have just stuck with plastic models instead of Resin, and kept the price lower. There are plenty of companies out there that produce armies, units and box sets of high detail plastic miniatures for a lot less price. They also produce fewer miniatures, and so have a higher running costs per miniature. (you make more of a model, and the mold pays for itself in no time, reducing costs).

They would produce some miniatures all the time as well, and so almost never need to change out the mold from the centrifugal machine, and so they reduce time, and in the end we pay, because they think we are gullible enough or desperate enough to keep buying overpriced models.

I have not bought a GW model for 2 months now, and have purchased models from other companies to convert and sometimes use directly as the appropriate GW miniature.

I think it is a trend that will grow, especially in Australia/ NZ, and areas where there is not a GW store nearby, and the local gaming shop is able to stock miniatures from other companies.

I do not play in 40K tournaments much anymore, so there is no need to keep up with the "Latest" releases.

[eldargal]

I wouldn't pay Australian prices either, and I think they missed a great opportunity to earn some goodwill by not dropping the price of the Finecast range.

[Verilance]

I wouldn't pay Australian prices either, and I think they missed a great opportunity to earn some goodwill by not dropping the price of the Finecast range.

from what I understand almost everything has almost a 100% mark up in Austarlia, from video games to clothing expecting GW to lower their prices whilst no one else does is slightly unreasonable.

I don't know what can be done about it though, boycotting everything??

I hate paying 3-5 dollars more for books in Canada but it is either not buy them or pay the prices.

[vyrago]

Hell yes boycott them! GW raises their prices because they CAN. they want to see what the market will bear, and from what I gather on these forums.....most people will continue to buy GW, albeit some will buy less but buy nontheless.

Miniwargaming.com has 'invited' people look into other games, and Beast of War have used the term "vote with your feet". If you dont like what GW is doing, then stop buying it. You can keep playing if you want....but just stop buying. Myself and my close gaming group are all agreed to no longer support GW. Call it a boycott, call it "looking at alternatives", but end result is my 40k armies are done.

on a side note, we're considering going back to the miniature tabletop version of an old canadian favorite RPG, Heavy Gear. cheaper minis, lower model count per army.

cheers!

[Gotthammer]

from what I understand almost everything has almost a 100% mark up in Austarlia, from video games to clothing expecting GW to lower their prices whilst no one else does is slightly unreasonable.

I don't know what can be done about it though, boycotting everything??

I hate paying 3-5 dollars more for books in Canada but it is either not buy them or pay the prices.

A lot of people are boycotting everything (well, a lot of things). Personally I buy CD's from Europe or the US, DVDs and books from Amazon & Ebay (though Madman and JB, Aussie companies, don't charge excessive amounts for their wares so also get my business), clothes either on sale or from overseas and so on.
Video games are somewhat trickier due to region locking on consoles, but I mostly play PC games (and very few at that) so I often wait and pick up a bargain bin game of the year edition for half the release price with all the DLC a year later. GoG is my friend, as are indie games like GSB.
I have friends who buy almsot everything from overseas, employing proxy's to get around ISP deteting regional e-shop fronts.

I've bought three non-GW books full price locally in the last year or so. Crazy as it seems Black Library is sometimes cheaper than a normal novel here :eek:

These are the main areas (aside from consumer electronics like TVs) that are over priced here, so I get around it. If Gerry Harvey (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/internet-postings-pummel-gerry-harvey-over-online-shopping/story-e6freooo-1225983199204) wants to have a cry (http://www.smh.com.au/business/poor-gerry-harvey--tell-him-hes-dreaming-20101124-186nm.html) about it hurting his business (http://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/03/gerry-harvey-no-one-makes-money-from-the-internet/) he should look at JB Hi-fi for a place that has dropped prices and is very successful. All GW is going to do with a large amount of its fan base here is drive them to online alternatives which are now, thanks to the embargo, other companies who will be all too happy to take our money.

That said I will still be buying from my local GW.
Why? Because unlike the clothing stores or whitegoods retailers my GW fosters a community and goes beyond the base corprate level to make itself a great hobby store (even if it is the kind that only stocks one type of product ;) ). I wish I could buy more, but I'm going to spend the same dollar amount as I used to, or realistically less as the price rises make the sets break my budget weirdly.

Hell, buying less might mean I'll get everything painted (ha ha).

[Morgan Darkstar]

Hell yes boycott them!

No I wont boycott them, infact if i get this new job i will be purchasing far more GW stuff.

to be honest i am getting sick and tired of hearing about, "how terrible it is that GW have raised prices"
give it a rest they dont owe us low prices. if you want it you pay for it if you dont you dont simples!

[HsojVvad]

Of course GW is Expensive. When something costs 50 cents to make and being sold for $50 it is way exepensive and over costed.

I don't want to hear about costs for molds and designs, blah blah blah, all that is, is excuses. You don' hear GM or Ford or any other company talking about charging more for start up costs. Start up costs is up to the company to take, so they can make money not for it's customers to suffer from.

Yes GW is expensive, but it will only bear what the market will bear. Problem for alot of us, the market seems to be bearing the "GW Hobby" so nothing will change until then.

Most of us on the forums here have been in the GW hobby for 2 years or more. We are not GW customer base. GW coudln't care if we complain about high prices becaue we are not comming into the stores dishing out $500 or more to start up. I said most since there is a few people here who still dish out alot of money for thier plastic crack. Thing is we are not GW customer base so the prices are not for us. It's for the rich people who dish out alot of money right away for Little Timmy and that's it. So untill the market will not bear this, nothing will change, GW and the share holders are laughing all the way to the bank.


thats nice, but it's not GW

What is this suppose to mean? So what if it's not GW? GW themselves say use anything you want when you play 40K. Just not sure what the intenet is suppose to mean.

[Zeonic Marine]

A couple points if I may:

I came to GW models about 5 years ago after building 1/35th scale armor kits and 1/48th scale aircraft for about 24 years and one of the reason I was less than thrilled with the hobby I loved was the increase in kit prices here in the states. Now mind you there are distinctly different reasons for the increase.

Yes, scale models are getting more expensive but before you say they are apples and apples look at the kits. A Dragon 1/35th scale Pz.Kpfw Ausf. J Mid Production has at our around 700 plus parts on nearly a dozen sprues. Some of these kits while expensive have turned aluminum barrels, full or partial interiors, engines, small frets of photo-etch brass etc. Granted some of these kits are made up of recycled molds where sets of common parts are tossed in the box with a few new sprues to make specific version. Not to mention the tooling quality makes GW kits look primitive by comparison. Many GW kits minus some of their larger efforts (Baneblade for example) are on no more than two sprues. They do some excellent details but they are hardly state of the art. There are no slide-molded parts with multi-part molds in GW's line that I've seen.

This isn't meant to disparage GW's efforts, simply pointing out the facts.

I'm not sure who GW has doing their mold tooling but scale armor molds are pretty expensive, still, how fast does your investment return when you sells thousands of copies from each mold. Careful mold maintenance means these toolings can last for decades. Look at Revell, they make kits from molds that have been in existence for decades. Once the cost of the tooling has been paid for, you can generate kits for little more than the cost of the raw plastic, packaging and the electricity to run the machines (this is a simplification, but it's not far off)

GW is the manufacture and distributor of their products, there isn't a middleman. You want their products; they are made or packaged in your region (in this case, the United States) and shipped to you from the manufacture's warehouse. An Academy 1/48 F-15 Ra'am costs $55 from your local hobby shop these days but it came from an independent distributor like Squadron or Steven's International and they tacked anywhere from 20-60% on to the wholesale to margin their profit in after it was shipped from Korea. Some digital camera accessories reach 200% mark-ups before they hit the shelves depending on these factors.

Many have taken to buying from direct sources in Asia.

I used to work with a model kit importer based in Carrollton Texas as a pattern maker for one of their resin lines and while the manufactures did raise the prices there were some heated debates amongst the management because frankly, some wanted to raise prices for no other reason than the justification that people would pay it.

The manufactures were being angrily rebuked for their drastic price increases when it was the distributors picking the customers profit. A check of retail prices through regional distributors bore this out. Kits that cost $44.95 here were selling for $14.95 in Hong Kong.

There are formulas in retail that dictate how much profit you make after a wholesale purchase and this type of data is a proprietary. Afterall, if you're getting a better deal you can lower the price on a sale, outsell your competitors and still maintain a margin per item to maintain a healthy profit. GW doesn't have to do any of this, its all internal.

I'm not sure if the market is actually sustaining GW's price increases. There is a stereotype floating around that "we are geeks, we will pay it". This can be true, I've certainly see people that will pay any price for their hobby, still I konw just as many that have reduced their purchases pretty heavily. Are they doing this out of rage or indignation? No, it's an almost subconscious response. Sure they had $60 to spend, but instead of getting two boxes, they would buy one because they have gone up or they would put one back until "later". This purchase deferment hits home at the end of the year.I realized one day I was doign the same thing, impulse purchases were mostly gone, forays in to new armies or fleshing out small forces had fallen by the wayside. This is why pricey restaurants refuse to print dollar signs next to the numeric costs of their items? Research shows people buy less when the dollar sign is present.

Has GW hit their market tipping point? I don't know, we will probably never see honest data or a breakdown, in part because it's internal and proprietary (they would be crazy to release it frankly) and most companies will spin or obfuscate data like no tomorrow to present the image they want, especially where investors are involved, still they could be caught in a cycle of raising prices and seeing profits fall flat and needing (or wanting) to raise prices to offset the losses caused by the increases and lackluster returns on new kit investments. All we can see is the retail side and GW frankly, is pretty expensive.

Nice to be part of a community again

David

[Morgan Darkstar]

Of course GW is Expensive. When something costs 50 cents to make and being sold for $50 it is way exepensive and over costed.

I don't want to hear about costs for molds and designs, blah blah blah, all that is, is excuses. You don' hear GM or Ford or any other company talking about charging more for start up costs. Start up costs is up to the company to take, so they can make money not for it's customers to suffer from.

"you might not want to hear about it however molds and designs aside, it does cost money to run a business, staff wages, recruitment, insurance, buildings, heating, water, taxes, more taxes, shipping storage etcetera the list goes on and on. if they sold the models based solely on the cost it took to make, where do you suggest they recoup the cost for those?"


Yes GW is expensive, but it will only bear what the market will bear. Problem for alot of us, the market seems to be bearing the "GW Hobby" so nothing will change until then.

Most of us on the forums here have been in the GW hobby for 2 years or more. We are not GW customer base. GW coudln't care if we complain about high prices becaue we are not comming into the stores dishing out $500 or more to start up. I said most since there is a few people here who still dish out alot of money for thier plastic crack. Thing is we are not GW customer base so the prices are not for us. It's for the rich people who dish out alot of money right away for Little Timmy and that's it. So untill the market will not bear this, nothing will change, GW and the share holders are laughing all the way to the bank.

"i aint rich by a long way infact i am between jobs and i can still afford to drop £50 a fortnight on models"



thats nice, but it's not GW

What is this supposed to mean? So what if it's not GW? GW themselves say use anything you want when you play 40K. Just not sure what the intent is supposed to mean.

"It means i want GW models to play GW games, nothing more nothing less."

[HsojVvad]

It means i want GW models to play GW games, nothing more nothing less."

Thanks for explaining, just wanted to make sure.:)

[Commissar Lewis]

Maybe GW models aren't as expensive as other hobbies, like shooting, drinking of high-end liquors, or what have you - but to be honest this price hike has effectively priced me out of the hobby.

And even though I'll have some cash when I start my adventures in the Army this Sept... truth be told I'm not spending my pay on GW.

[HsojVvad]

I said it once, I will say it again, when it costs GW 50 cents to make a spure and they sell it for $50 something is wrong. If all the excuses were used to defend GW then automobiles should be costing a million dollars to buy a chevette then.

Lets see, huge start up costs, huge material costs, and huge salary costs for the auto workers and we only paying about $15 000- $75 000 for a car.

What does GW have? one or two people in a store for minimum wage, still using molds from 10 years ago. A car costs about $10 000 to make so it's sold for $20 000 or $30 000. That is no where what GW does.

GW is a 10 000% price increase while a car is 300% price increase.

Again what ever the market bears, but if you going to make excuses for GW compare them to other companies. I don't know of any other company that has a 10 000% more price increase. I thought cars are expensive, but at least they actually have material, labour plant, start up costs to contend with. GW doesn't has as much as the auto industry.

Imagine the price of a cheap car is GW made it and sold it? so a $10 000 car would cost $10 000 000.

Now tell me GW is not expensive?

[Verilance]

What does GW have? one or two people in a store for minimum wage, still using molds from 10 years ago..



Isn't it wonderful all the workers at the factories making the miniatures, all other GW employees (artists, sculptors, writers) etc work for nothing.

you seemed to have left them out in your analogy.

I am not saying they are not expensive but it is all relative, Knowing people who spend upwards of $100 on one plastic doll of an anime/manga figure I say we got it pretty good

[vyrago]

man...I know a guy that spent like $13,000 on a CAR! (it came assembled and painted though) that sure makes GW look cheap now doesnt it!


*tongue firmly pressed against cheek*

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

I am not saying they are not expensive but it is all relative, Knowing people who spend upwards of $100 on one plastic doll of an anime/manga figure I say we got it pretty good

The difference being that you don't need to collect at least 50 of those expensive (i.e. $100) anime figures. The difference being that the prices for said anime figures are equivalent in other countries, and not overpriced in Australia.

[Paul]

The difference being that you don't need to collect at least 50 of those expensive (i.e. $100) anime figures. The difference being that the prices for said anime figures are equivalent in other countries, and not overpriced in Australia.

1) you don't need to buy 50 40k models, either. I played a hilariously fun Killzone game last night with a techmarine and five tactical marines (one had a plasma gun).

2) Austrailia != world. I'm in the USA and don't care about Austrialia. They can do whatever they like to fix the problem, but I'm not going to damper my fun for their sake.

[Denzark]

Good things that could happen from GW being too expensive:

1. All the boycotters/CHS fans/outrage bus riders quit the hobby. Masses of cheap GW on ebay.
Result: Winner.
2. GW prices little timmy out of the market. Denzark can go in GW without hordes of screaming children who smell and act like nurglings.
Result: Winner.
3. Because little timmy's mum isn't funding the GW corporation, they decide to listen more to veterans. Save modifiers are brought back.
Result: Winner.
4. GW starts to make genuine losses. As a result they mammothly cut prices, drop LOTR (whose conditions prevent sale prices I understand) and one million bandwagon jumpers quit pretending they like 'kill the warcaster'.
Result: Winner.
5. Boycotts completely closes down one or more overseas divisions. GW returns to its roots of catering to British gamers with a slightly eccentric sense of humour.
Result: Winner.
6. GW makes eternal profits and never loses ever. Old Nick himself comes up on firey wings to oversee Tom Kirby's ascension to Daemonhood. All Anti-GW zealots heads explode, the resulting youtube video is more entertaining than that dramtic chipmunk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw

Result: Winner

We are on the verge of a whole possible range of awesome win, like Charlie Sheen the tiger blooded warlock. Whatever happens clearly price increases are only for the best.

PS Mr A that is a top notch sherman what about something decent like a Churchill Flamethrower or zimmerit ridden Koenigstiger!

[daboarder]

Good things that could happen from GW being too expensive:

1. All the boycotters/CHS fans/outrage bus riders quit the hobby. Masses of cheap GW on ebay.
Result: Winner.

I love troll posts like this denzark. I mean Honestly just because you refuse to pay the prices GW asks any longer does that mean you must refuse to play the game? or that you must immediately register your army on sale?

I've got 3 armies, I love the game, and I'm boycotting GW, all this means is that I wont be expanding or starting a new army unless I land a high paying job, and even then I'll be buying from alternate sources.

[Gir]

I said it once, I will say it again, when it costs GW 50 cents to make a spure and they sell it for $50 something is wrong. If all the excuses were used to defend GW then automobiles should be costing a million dollars to buy a chevette then.

Lets see, huge start up costs, huge material costs, and huge salary costs for the auto workers and we only paying about $15 000- $75 000 for a car.

What does GW have? one or two people in a store for minimum wage, still using molds from 10 years ago. A car costs about $10 000 to make so it's sold for $20 000 or $30 000. That is no where what GW does.

GW is a 10 000% price increase while a car is 300% price increase.

Again what ever the market bears, but if you going to make excuses for GW compare them to other companies. I don't know of any other company that has a 10 000% more price increase. I thought cars are expensive, but at least they actually have material, labour plant, start up costs to contend with. GW doesn't has as much as the auto industry.

Imagine the price of a cheap car is GW made it and sold it? so a $10 000 car would cost $10 000 000.

Now tell me GW is not expensive?

Pulling random numbers out of the air doesn't help your case.

You also compare a car cost with labor and startup, while you only include the raw material for the sprue. Seems fair.

[Verilance]

The difference being that you don't need to collect at least 50 of those expensive (i.e. $100) anime figures.

You obviously have never seen some of these peoples collections :D

but seriously I feel sorry about the prices for everything in Australia but it is more than just GW thing you are getting royally screwed on everything.

in Canada they are not priced uncompetitively compared to other hobbies IMO

[Gir]

You obviously have never seen some of these peoples collections :D

but seriously I feel sorry about the prices for everything in Australia but it is more than just GW thing you are getting royally screwed on everything.

in Canada they are not priced uncompetitively compared to other hobbies IMO

We're priced pretty accurately here too. But most Australian's buy everything overseas anyway. Australian's get pissed off when they're suddenly told they're not allowed to do that anymore.

Cars are easily the worst though. Our BMW's go for Maserati prices :(

[eldargal]

Silly post, despite being tongue in cheek. A car is a necessity for most people, not a luxury (hobbies are by definition not necessities). We are comparing costs of hobbies, not random products.


man...I know a guy that spent like $13,000 on a CAR! (it came assembled and painted though) that sure makes GW look cheap now doesnt it!


*tongue firmly pressed against cheek*

[vyrago]

You're right, cars are never hobbies. my mistake.

[eldargal]

You want to compare cars as a hobby to GW? My brother just bought a 1927 Hispano Suiza that needs minor restoration (his hobby) for over three hundred thousand pounds.

[vyrago]

thats precisely my intent! to show that a great many hobbies can be selected as examples in order to make GW look cheaper. In the grand scheme of 'hobbies', GW games are quite affordable. Skiing, scuba, rare stamp collecting, cars, collecting fine art....are all examples of things that would make GW look quite cheap. dont you agree?

I was poking fun at those who were choosing to do this. So, I think we've boiled it down. GW are NOT that expensive in their own right. What makes GW expensive, as mentioned already, is that many models are needed to fill out an appropriately sized army. Most armies of say...1500 points require somewhere around 30-75 models. This is where the premium price of GW starts to creep up higher and higher, thereby making it seem 'expensive'. But the fact remains that many other miniature wargames have either lower model counts per army, cheaper miniature prices or both. not to mention arguably less detailed miniatures as well.

[eldargal]

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post, too early in the morning.:rolleyes:

[Denzark]

I love troll posts like this denzark. I mean Honestly just because you refuse to pay the prices GW asks any longer does that mean you must refuse to play the game? or that you must immediately register your army on sale?

I've got 3 armies, I love the game, and I'm boycotting GW, all this means is that I wont be expanding or starting a new army unless I land a high paying job, and even then I'll be buying from alternate sources.

DAboarder. Do you not understand irony? In a post I entitled 'the more expensive the better'?

But as you took it at face value, where did I say anything about anyone must doing anything?

And, unless all your 3 armies are new codexes, you will be drawn back in faster than Don Corleone when your army gets a buff.

[daboarder]

......YUP! my bad.


sorry denzark just havin' a rough week, my apologies mate.

[TheRise]

I have been hating GW for a long long time, but not massively. Only because they don't want to send the orders to my local indy store...
I have also been complaining about the prices.
But I have recently broke my leg and fractured my ligements and torn a tendant in my leg doing another of my favourite hobbies, BMX racing. Now I have been told I can't continue racing for another 4 months. Also I can't gig with my band, I also play guitar, because of this injury. This is saving loads of my costs on these hobbies, and I am actualy buying £20 more each month on wargaming. And after that and buying all my food and drink and rent etc. I still have a fair bit of money left over.

But I am now mainly spending my money on PP.
So why don't you guys just change to a different range. Liek Privateer Press? And after all with all the saving going on for PP at the moment why not start now?!

[eldargal]

Well, for my part, I don't like Privateer PRess' miniature range, it is dull and static and costs more than GW figures which are ridiculously better for detail, design and customisation. Also, female miniatures with arms that would reach their knees if they were standing straight, not acceptable.
I don't like the ruleset, its an ok skirmish game but I would rather play a brilliant skirmish game like Necromunda. I also can't stand most of the Warmachine players I've met in person*.

I'd rather play Kings of War, the rules are good, pity all but Mantics undead miniatures have been a huge dissapointment (for me).


*Except two of my brothers who play Warmachine, they're ok.

[Psychosplodge]

2. GW prices little timmy out of the market. Denzark can go in GW without hordes of screaming children who smell and act like nurglings.
Result: Winner.

It does seem to be a lot younger audience than when I started....

[HsojVvad]

thats precisely my intent! to show that a great many hobbies can be selected as examples in order to make GW look cheaper. In the grand scheme of 'hobbies', GW games are quite affordable. Skiing, scuba, rare stamp collecting, cars, collecting fine art....are all examples of things that would make GW look quite cheap. dont you agree?

I was poking fun at those who were choosing to do this. So, I think we've boiled it down. GW are NOT that expensive in their own right. What makes GW expensive, as mentioned already, is that many models are needed to fill out an appropriately sized army. Most armies of say...1500 points require somewhere around 30-75 models. This is where the premium price of GW starts to creep up higher and higher, thereby making it seem 'expensive'. But the fact remains that many other miniature wargames have either lower model counts per army, cheaper miniature prices or both. not to mention arguably less detailed miniatures as well.

Is GW really that affordable? Get a deck of cards and now you really have a cheap gaming system. To compare GW to scuba diving or collecting cars, of course GW is affordable just by saying GW is expensive compared to playing Monopoly or a deck of cards, it is really expensive.

If you really want to compare prices compare everything then. Compare start up costs to start up costs. Compare labour costs to labour costs. Compare material costs to material costs. Collecting cars is a hell of alot cheaper then since it already costs alot to make that car.

Again when it costs a company $10 000 to make a car and costs GW 50 cents to make a sprue, that is quite a differnence and mark up costs.

Again compared to other companies, GW doesn't have that much high set up costs and material costs and labour costs to justify the high prices is all I am saying.

Yes I get more worth spending $80 on a Carnifex than my wife spending $80 at Bingo or someone else drinking at a bar, GW has more worth that that if we compare that. You can say spending $200 on a Carnifex is worth more than spending money at a bar or at Bingo or what not because that can be years of fun, but still, it is expensive.

Maybe the title should be, GW is not expensive in the long run as a hobby but intial costs are expesnive for what it costs to make.

[Denzark]

......YUP! my bad.


sorry denzark just havin' a rough week, my apologies mate.

Fair one mate, I'm often a d*ck so most of the time pulling me down a peg or 5 won't hurt!

[TheRise]

Well, for my part, I don't like Privateer PRess' miniature range, it is dull and static and costs more than GW figures which are ridiculously better for detail, design and customisation. Also, female miniatures with arms that would reach their knees if they were standing straight, not acceptable.
I don't like the ruleset, its an ok skirmish game but I would rather play a brilliant skirmish game like Necromunda. I also can't stand most of the Warmachine players I've met in person*.
But you don't need as many minis to play with. Over all it is cheaper... And it is a great game, great tactics. I was sayign thsi to the people who are getting realy ****ed about GW.
I'd rather play Kings of War, the rules are good, pity all but Mantics undead miniatures have been a huge dissapointment (for me).


*Except two of my brothers who play Warmachine, they're ok.


.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Originally Posted by eldargal Well, for my part, I don't like Privateer PRess' miniature range, it is dull and static and costs more than GW figures which are ridiculously better for detail, design and customisation. Also, female miniatures with arms that would reach their knees if they were standing straight, not acceptable.I don't like the ruleset, its an ok skirmish game but I would rather play a brilliant skirmish game like Necromunda. I also can't stand most of the Warmachine players I've met in person*.But you don't need as many minis to play with. Over all it is cheaper... And it is a great game, great tactics. I was sayign thsi to the people who are getting realy ****ed about GW.I'd rather play Kings of War, the rules are good, pity all but Mantics undead miniatures have been a huge dissapointment (for me).*Except two of my brothers who play Warmachine, they're ok.

Eh? whats going on here. Why are you inserting things into a quote that the OP, "eldargal" did not say?

[Verilance]

One thing that is missed here is that if GW was profiteering as much as some people seem to think, Stock Brokers all over the world would be telling people of this wonderful investment that will return your money at lightning speed.

why bother investing in gold when you can invest in miniatures!!

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Well, GW stuff is too expensive for me personally - I dont get much money and have gotten less over the past few years which means I've had to quit buying because other things are more important to me.

I don't think id continue buying though if I did have the money, my tastes have simply gone further from GW's aesthetic and I've become more and more obsessive with lovecraftian/eldritch aesthetics over the past 5 years. So inless they make floaty, abstract, tentacled...things I can't see myself buying again.

I'm sticking to my own game and minis instead. Can't get more perfect than DIY.

[HsojVvad]

One thing that is missed here is that if GW was profiteering as much as some people seem to think, Stock Brokers all over the world would be telling people of this wonderful investment that will return your money at lightning speed.

why bother investing in gold when you can invest in miniatures!!

Just goes to show you how poorly they are run that is all. Part of the problem is, for what a 50 cent kit to make and they use to sell it for $50 but now selling it for $60 or $65 dollars, it cuts down on bulk sales.

Then again, companies on purpose loose money so they can claim it off taxes so who knows what GW logic is. Nothing they really do makes sense.

[Occam]

There are plenty of options out there to play the game. I'm writing an article on the subject now...or would be, if my data key hadn't been left at work over the weekend. /d'oh!


Anyway, it is true that GW models are expensive, but the cost is kind of deceptive when compared to most other hobbies. For example, video games. The average new system is what, $300? That bundle is a game [or a demo disc] with a controller. Plus, you need the TV and probably another controller plus two more games. Let's say ze games are $50 each, the controller about $30 and ignore the cost of the tele as most people already have one. That is $430 or so. And if one has to always have the latest and greatest, most new systems come out about every five years or so now? Haven't played video games in a while.

Now let's take 40k: Let's price the average of two battle force boxes as $100 each, plus two vehicle kits at $50 each, the templates, dice and big rule book. Roughly $430. So, whereas the video games go out of fashion reletively quickly, 40k has been around for more than 20 years now. Last year at 'Ard boyz at my local store, one gentlemen informed me he played every army and had been playing since the game's first edition! He had some very old, odd looking vehicles for the imperial guard, space wolves and everyone else that were still considered legal to play.

Magic CC is also way pricey! Sure, at $10 a deck or so it isn't bad, but doing it every week becomes pretty pricey at $520.

Anyway, while it is true that while our particular wargaming hobby has major costs, they are deceptive in that they are up front costs and diminish over time--just divide by the number of games or hours of enjoyment you have while playing. Like anything else, collect it by bits and pieces and budget appropriately. Heck, just take half of your beer money every week and put it forward to a good army inside of 6 months. Just sock your pennies away and look for cheaper options or even for models that no one else uses any more.

No, I'm not a sales rep...though I should be paid as one. That being said, the sudden price hike is a tad annoying. They just had one!

[Commissar Lewis]

I'm just hoping the prices do go back down to what they were before this new price hike.

Cause as they stand, I'm not gonna use the money I'll be earning during my adventures in the Army which will start in Sept to buy models, which are quality models, that I think are a tad overpriced.

True, the cost is not that bad compared to some other hobbies; it's just more than I'd like to pay for miniatures.

[vyrago]

I can say with a very high degree of certainty that GW will never go down. In fact, you can count on an "annual price increase" from now on. We dont know how much, but likely around 5-20% every year. This will likely continue untill the sales actually begin to suffer at noticeable levels. I'm sure GW has already discussed and projected the figures. For those of you who have said you dont understand what GW is doing, you have a lot to learn about business. What theyre doing makes perfect sense and is not an entirely bad move either. In fact...its quite smart. You want GW stuff? pay GW prices. thats the overall goal. sure, they wont be able to stop every kind of deal out there, but they can stop enough from getting through the cracks. They have a premium product that is in demand, which means they can control the price. Even the general sentiment of THIS forum speaks to the numbers. MOST gamers/hobbyists will continue to buy GW. Maybe some will buy less, and another small group will stop buying or even try new games. Overall, I'd say the amount of people "quitting" or boycotting GW will be quite small in the grand scheme. Many of those boycotters will come back when a new codex or army gets released.

Me personally, I fully intend to stop buying GW. Im not doing it to punish GW or make a statement, im doing it so I can invest in a new game thats also homegrown from Canada: Heavy Gear. I was going to buy a 1500 pt Eldar army this summer, but now its going to HG minis instead. Just a personal choice.

[Gir]

But you don't need as many minis to play with. Over all it is cheaper... And it is a great game, great tactics. I was sayign thsi to the people who are getting realy ****ed about GW.

Because it's impossible to play smaller games of 40k :rolleyes:



Just goes to show you how poorly they are run that is all. Part of the problem is, for what a 50 cent kit to make and they use to sell it for $50 but now selling it for $60 or $65 dollars, it cuts down on bulk sales.

Where are you getting this 50c a kit from? Your arse is not a good place to get information.

[Occam]

I love troll posts like this denzark. I mean Honestly just because you refuse to pay the prices GW asks any longer does that mean you must refuse to play the game? or that you must immediately register your army on sale?

I've got 3 armies, I love the game, and I'm boycotting GW, all this means is that I wont be expanding or starting a new army unless I land a high paying job, and even then I'll be buying from alternate sources.

Amen! Testify!

[Denzark]

Not sure what relevance the somewhat non-sequitur 'amen' and 'testify' have. But given post 105 and 106 above when I respectfully suggested Mr Daboardr had missed my irony and then he concluded, you may like to check the detail.

[wittdooley]

No use arguing with HsojVlad-- he pulls stats from thin air about as often as Donald Trump spray tans.

[Occam]

I was supporting his statement about fiscal responsibility, "voting with one's wallet" as it were whilst still enjoying the game and expanding his army via acceptable substitutions and creative innovation. I did not mean to call you "troll" at all.

[Xelkireth]

My two cents? Only suckers pay full MSRP. GW isn't that expensive of a hobby, as others have mentioned.

For the GW QQ-ers, quit already. Go find another hobby you can /nerdrage on.

[daboarder]

My two cents? Only suckers pay full MSRP. GW isn't that expensive of a hobby, as others have mentioned.

For the GW QQ-ers, quit already. Go find another hobby you can /nerdrage on.




Honestly, the whole point of this unrest is that the southern Hemisphere now has no reasonable option other than TO PAY TWICE THE RRP OF OTHER BUYERS.

as far as price is concerned I can buy a new snow board or go on a week trip to one of the most expensive snowfields in the world (auzzie snowfields are extremely over priced) for what it would cost me to get e 1750 pt army. If thats not over price plastic crack I don't know what is.

[Brettila]

This is a hobby, and like all hobbies, it's as expensive or cheap as your checkbook allows. :D

This, in a nutshell, is the essential point. Wargamming is a very niche hobby. Rather than tackle the entire world, I will try to use the U.S. as an example. We are a relatively 'rich' country, with high average household incomes, reasonable tax levels (yes, really), high standard of living, highest GDP, etc. We have a bit over 300 million citizens. Of those, how many truly wargame? No more than a few hundred thousand I'd wager. Furthermore, actual business research has shown that the standard member of our hobby is white, male, and between 14-20. For example, I live in a state that is less than 40% Anglo, yet at a recent 42 -man tournament I noticed exactly 2 non-Anglos. At my LGS I see one African-American and a handful of Hispanics. Everyone else is Anglo. Meaning stores have a very small potential market for their goods. Spread that over 50 states and a continent, and suddenly GW doesn't have that many people to make money off of like other corporations that sell items like candy bars. Look at any other niche retailer like gift shops, etc., and you can see how their products are expensive as well. Yes it sucks that we have to pay 100's for an army. However, look at how much use you get out of it, and how much enjoyment; unless you are a WAAC monkey who is angry all the time... Finally, you also have something to keep for your money. We could be like card gamers who have some of their cards invalidated every few months.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Honestly, the whole point of this unrest is that the southern Hemisphere now has no reasonable option other than TO PAY TWICE THE RRP OF OTHER BUYERS.

Amen. But of course, we're not allowed to complain about that. :rolleyes:

[Hive Mind]

Honestly, the whole point of this unrest is that the southern Hemisphere now has no reasonable option other than TO PAY TWICE THE RRP OF OTHER BUYERS.


You could stop buying. That's an option and it's the only way you'll get GW to care about your 'plight'.

In the luxury items market consumers hold the power. Stop buying and prices will drop. It's that simple. Or you can keep on complaining on the internet and change nothing.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

You could stop buying. That's an option and it's the only way you'll get GW to care about your 'plight'.

In the luxury items market consumers hold the power. Stop buying and prices will drop. It's that simple. Or you can keep on complaining on the internet and change nothing.

I've stopped buying, anyway. Keeping my DE and Dark Elf armies, but getting into Warmachine and Flames of War.

[Xelkireth]

I tried posting a link and it wouldn't let me. There is a discount seller on Ebay that ships to Oz and is amazing. The eBay store is Discount Warhammer Fantasy and 40K. I've purchased from him and is very prompt in getting back to emails.

I do feel for our Aussie compatriots. Is it going to make me nerdrage over it? No.

[HsojVvad]

No use arguing with HsojVlad-- he pulls stats from thin air about as often as Donald Trump spray tans.

I did say they were made up, not real stats, but something close.

Can you really argue about wage comparasions to GW staff and an automotive workers? Who pays more for wages, but yet the mark up is less? Who pays more for material costs and has less mark up. Who pays more for start up costs but has less mark up? That is what I was trying to say so there is no justifing on GW part for such high prices.

Even though the prices are still High, I still buy GW stuff, well not as much as I use to but still choose to do so. Why because even though they are out rageously priced, I still get great value from it.

[Gir]

Can you really argue about wage comparasions to GW staff and an automotive workers? Who pays more for wages, but yet the mark up is less? Who pays more for material costs and has less mark up. Who pays more for start up costs but has less mark up?

Comparatively speaking, Games-workshop is the answer to all your questions.

[HsojVvad]

comparatively speaking, games-workshop is the answer to all your questions.
:d lol

[shadosun]

We could be like card gamers who have some of their cards invalidated every few months.

THIS. That is one of the reasons I looked to 40k as a fun hobby. Yes I pay a premium for an army, but 6 months down the road my army is still my army, still able to do the same thing it did earlier. If there is a 'dex change then you get a few more models to round out the change and you're good. I still spend less than I did playing MTG. I spent about 150 on each set every couple months. 3 sets in a block. So thats 450. And oh yeah I can't use those cards in a little over a year if I want to play standard. Good riddance to that, I'll take a small price hike to keep the enjoyment of my models instead of packing them away and wishing i could use them at a tournament because they are no longer legal.

[Necron2.0]

For myself, here is the primary reason why I feel GW's minis are perhaps a tad overpriced. I have experience casting miniatures - it's a hobby. RTV silicone (for mold making) costs $150 per gallon (I use the expensive stuff). Casting resin costs roughly $30 per half-gallon. My vacuum chamber cost $150. The pump for my vacuum chamber cost another $150. If I were to create something similar to my Dark Eldar army, I'd probably need a gallon of resin, so altogether that'd come to $510, of which approximately $375 would be one-time costs (it doesn't take a full gallon of RTV to make all the molds). Doing the math, the recurring costs for making multiple armies would therefore be just $135. Bear in mind, I'm paying retail prices for all this, not wholesale.

My dark eldar army (excluding tax) cost me $549.25. That means I'm paying more for my army than it would cost me to set up a casting shop of my own. Now, I know people will come up with reasons and whyfores, but even with the excuses this seems a bit much to me.

[Gir]

For myself, here is the primary reason why I feel GW's minis are perhaps a tad overpriced. I have experience casting miniatures - it's a hobby. RTV silicone (for mold making) costs $150 per gallon (I use the expensive stuff). Casting resin costs roughly $30 per half-gallon. My vacuum chamber cost $150. The pump for my vacuum chamber cost another $150. If I were to create something similar to my Dark Eldar army, I'd probably need a gallon of resin, so altogether that'd come to $510, of which approximately $375 would be one-time costs (it doesn't take a full gallon of RTV to make all the molds). Doing the math, the recurring costs for making multiple armies would therefore be just $135. Bear in mind, I'm paying retail prices for all this, not wholesale.

My dark eldar army (excluding tax) cost me $549.25. That means I'm paying more for my army than it would cost me to set up a casting shop of my own. Now, I know people will come up with reasons and whyfores, but even with the excuses this seems a bit much to me.



Add in wages, development costs, taxes, transport, sales costs, store rental and utility bills then get back to me.

[Gir]

:d lol

I don't know about where you live, but it's very much the case is Aus.

[Hive Mind]

Games Workshop products are over-priced because we've demonstrated to them that we will buy them no matter how much they cost. It's that simple. Piss and moan all you like but the only way you'll make a difference is to stop buying.

"Oh, the prices went up, I wonder why?"
"Because **** you, that's why."

In the meantime if you could stop all the whining it'd be much appreciated. It's giving me a headache and you may not realise it but it makes you look very silly indeed.

[vyrago]

Games Workshop products are over-priced because we've demonstrated to them that we will buy them no matter how much they cost. It's that simple. Piss and moan all you like but the only way you'll make a difference is to stop buying.

"Oh, the prices went up, I wonder why?"
"Because **** you, that's why."

In the meantime if you could stop all the whining it'd be much appreciated. It's giving me a headache and you may not realise it but it makes you look very silly indeed.


HAHAHA, awesome. you're dead on man. 'we', the market have shown we'll pay pretty much whatever GW wants to charge.

[Necron2.0]

Add in wages, development costs, taxes, transport, sales costs, store rental and utility bills ....

I did.


That means I'm paying more for my army than it would cost me to set up a casting shop of my own. Now, I know people will come up with reasons and whyfores, but even with the excuses this seems a bit much to me.


+++++


Games Workshop products are over-priced because we've demonstrated to them that we will buy them no matter how much they cost. It's that simple.

Agreed.

[Hive Mind]

None of this is specifically aimed at anyone on this forum.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It really boggles my mind that some people appear to think they possess some kind of fundamental right of access to GW products just because they like to play the games. Of course it's less than ideal when products are expensive but these are not essential items we are talking about; no-one forces you to play these games.

It would be nice if GW products were more affordable, but there's no element of fairness involved on their part. Maybe if they'd stayed as a small boutique company then things would be different but then we wouldn't have the range of products we have to choose from. The fact is however that they're a corporation listed on the London Stock Exchange and their directors and upper management are under a fiduciary duty to maximise the returns of their shareholders. That means that by law (s.172 of the Companies Act 2006, IIRC) they have to screw us for every penny they can get. If sales stay stable through price rises, why would they not raise prices?

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the only way to get at a company like GW is thru their bottom-line. If we don't buy their products, shareholders don't get their dividends and upper management gets the boot. Sign e-petitions, whinge away on message boards, liken them to repressive, authoritarian governments all you want but know that all you're doing is wasting your own time with such things. You'd have more effect taking a piss in the wind and at least that way you wouldn't annoy everyone else with your incessant whining.

[eldargal]

Necron, you setting up a casting shop in your back shed is a world away from an industrial scale factory capable of producing one hundred and twenty million pounds worth of kits every year. It is interesting to note that Privateer Press which has a 'cottage industry*' sort of set up is having difficulties keeping up with demand of onl a few million dollars worth of kits a year and has had to delay the release of new models as a result. You can only do so much with that set up before you need to upsize dramatically.

*Or atleast a very small factory.

[Necron2.0]

True enough, which is why I said it struck me as a bit much, and not "OH MY GAWD!!! THOSE @#$%!" :)

The situation in Australia might be another matter, however. I do think what's happening in Australia is straying into the excessive range, but that's another issue entirely.

Oh, and Hive, in your analysis I think you may have missed one very important point. As much as anyone loves anything ... people love to complain about it most of all. ;)

[Mick A]

eldargal- Just out of curiosity, what do you want a suit of late 15th century, German style, gothic armour for?

Mick

[eldargal]

Apart from the fact it looks beautiful, historical reenactment mostly, wear it, fight in it, look pretty in it etc.

[Mick A]

Apart from the fact it looks beautiful, historical reenactment mostly, wear it, fight in it, look pretty in it etc.

Have to admit, its my favourite style of armour and always has been but not at all historically acurate for this country until at least 1500 onwards (I started WotR reenactment twenty five years ago but stopped five years ago when I was stabbed in the back by a halberd that actually went completly through quilted, ten layer padding cracking a rib...).

Mick

[wittdooley]

Have to admit, its my favourite style of armour and always has been but not at all historically acurate for this country until at least 1500 onwards (I started WotR reenactment twenty five years ago but stopped five years ago when I was stabbed in the back by a halberd that actually went completly through quilted, ten layer padding cracking a rib...).

Mick

I have a problem if I went straight to "War of the Ring" with that, instead of "War of the Roses," right?

[Psychosplodge]

I have a problem if I went straight to "War of the Ring" with that, instead of "War of the Roses," right?

Yes

Yes you do.

[Lemt]

Just as I was thinking it was a pity there was no real substitute for 40k out there (all sci-fi games out there are skirmish games), Mantic announces a sci-fi game.

[Mick A]

Just as I was thinking it was a pity there was no real substitute for 40k out there (all sci-fi games out there are skirmish games), Mantic announces a sci-fi game.

You could also try FUBAR. Its what our local club uses instead of 40k now. Get to use any sci-fi figures you want and is free... Check out the Forge of War yahoo site.

Mick

[Necron2.0]

Apart from the fact it looks beautiful, historical reenactment mostly, wear it, fight in it, look pretty in it etc.

What accoutrements you looking to get with it? I ask because I collect c-c-c-c-c-c-cutlery (among other things). I've got several replica pieces (long sword, B-Stard sword, battle axe, rapier and main gauche and the like). I eventually want to get over to Toledo (Spain) because supposedly they make the finest swords in the world there. I'd also like to pick up a real (as in meant to be used) Mensur fencing sword.

[Lemt]

What accoutrements you looking to get with it? I ask because I collect c-c-c-c-c-c-cutlery (among other things). I've got several replica pieces (long sword, B-Stard sword, battle axe, rapier and main gauche and the like). I eventually want to get over to Toledo (Spain) because supposedly they make the finest swords in the world there. I'd also like to pick up a real (as in meant to be used) Mensur fencing sword.



Damn, I had a link somewhere explaining why swords from Toledo had such high quality. From what I recall, what they did was use two types of steel, one for the core of the blade and another covering it. They had complementary physical properties, one was more flexible and fragile and the other was the opposite. This means that you got the best from both worlds.
Just be careful, apparently many replicas sold today only use one type of steel, and hence aren't really good. A good replica, however, would be MCH more expensive.

[eldargal]

I have a large collection of cutlery, both authentic stuff from the family armoury which I sometimes wear for display only events and reproduction stuff. Half a dozen single handed swords, a few hand and a half swords, some two handed swords, axes, maces, halabrds, spears, awl pike, pistols you name it I've probably got it and if I don't one of my brothers will.:rolleyes:

Toledo steel used to be superb, but as I understand it the high grade ore deposits ran out in the 17th or 18th century. Toledo steel is still very good, but its not at the same level it was. Its more of a prestige brand name now.



What accoutrements you looking to get with it? I ask because I collect c-c-c-c-c-c-cutlery (among other things). I've got several replica pieces (long sword, B-Stard sword, battle axe, rapier and main gauche and the like). I eventually want to get over to Toledo (Spain) because supposedly they make the finest swords in the world there. I'd also like to pick up a real (as in meant to be used) Mensur fencing sword.

[Psychosplodge]

I have a large collection of cutlery, both authentic stuff from the family armoury .

Best quote ever lol

[Emperorsmercy]

I can't wait until Mantics sci fi game comes out. Might have to pick up an army (or three.).

(Or six.)

[Denzark]

I have a large collection of cutlery, both authentic stuff from the family armoury which I sometimes wear for display only events and reproduction stuff. Half a dozen single handed swords, a few hand and a half swords, some two handed swords, axes, maces, halabrds, spears, awl pike, pistols you name it I've probably got it and if I don't one of my brothers will.:rolleyes:

Toledo steel used to be superb, but as I understand it the high grade ore deposits ran out in the 17th or 18th century. Toledo steel is still very good, but its not at the same level it was. Its more of a prestige brand name now.

The prides of my collection are a baker rifle bayonet, an 1813 stamped Kligenthal Cavalry Sabre, and a George V basket-RAF Officers sword, engraved with the dates of all my foreign 'holidays'...

Toledo bangs out loads of the cheapy repros you see in Great Yarmouth. Now Solingen in Germany provides to more than one sword manufacturer.

What about http://www.raven-armoury.co.uk/?

(Sorry to go Off Topic majorly but hey...)

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

In the meantime if you could stop all the whining it'd be much appreciated. It's giving me a headache and you may not realise it but it makes you look very silly indeed.

Your whining about whining is giving me a headache too! :rolleyes:

[Necron2.0]

I have a large collection of cutlery, both authentic stuff from the family armoury which I sometimes wear for display only events and reproduction stuff.

Now see, this is where we Yanks are at a disadvantage. Even though my family's been here since that little issue with good ol' Bonnie Prince Charlie, the best I could ever manage is "This hyar is the rifle what my ancestor kill't all those people with ... and this hyar is the rope what hung him."

Somehow saying "I'm going to get all Industrial Revolutionary on your butt," just doesn't have the same ring. ;)

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

I have to say this has gone off topic... But I believe it is far more intresting now :D. Anyone British been to Leeds Royal Armoury? (sorry to everyone else who isn't... Even though the question is still going out to everyone, as some people who are not may have been :) )

[Necron2.0]

I have to say this has gone off topic... But I believe it is far more intresting now :D. Anyone British been to Leeds Royal Armoury? (sorry to everyone else who isn't... Even though the question is still going out to everyone, as some people who are not may have been :) )

Well ... no, and yes. Not British, but I've been to Leeds - a couple decades ago, though. JOY-GASM!!! Can't forget the elephant.

[eldargal]

Leeds is a good museum, I have some issues with some staff members which I won't go into here. But the collection is excellent, one of my favourite pieces is this:
http://www2.hud.ac.uk/shared/shared_newswg/images/2009/images_11/11_rimer2.jpg
Pity the rest of the harness is lost.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Leeds is a good museum, I have some issues with some staff members which I won't go into here. But the collection is excellent, one of my favourite pieces is this:
http://www2.hud.ac.uk/shared/shared_newswg/images/2009/images_11/11_rimer2.jpg
Pity the rest of the harness is lost.

Thats a helmet made for Henry VIII? isn't it (not sure though?)? But yeah.. Bit creepy though :L

[Hive Mind]

I'm now a bit scared to say that I used to work at the Armouries... though it was only a gift shop gig while I was attending the College of Music so it's probably not me that EG is pissed at...

Anyway, yeah it's quite good. Also, the armoury at Wawel Castle in Krakow has tons of 15th and 16th century German weapons and armour if that's what you're into.

[eldargal]

Yep, gifted to Henry VIII by Emperor Maximilian I, from memory. Or was it Charles V? Hm no I think it was Maximilian. I'm too lazy to google it to check.:rolleyes:


Thats a helmet made for Henry VIII? isn't it (not sure though?)? But yeah.. Bit creepy though :L

Hehe, no it was one of the 'expert' staff, an assistant curator or some such thing. I don't think he even works there anymore.
I've been trying to get to Wawel castle for ages, something always comes up which interferes whenever we get near Poland.
I also recommend Schloss Ambras at Innsbruck and the Landeszeughaus at Graz, both in Austria, for anyone interested in armour.

A fair proportion of the stuff in Leeds is German or Italian in origin funnily enough, it was Henry VIII who actually founded the first proper English armour manufactory and even then it still had to import steel from Germany to produce anything. He still commissioned harnesses from German makes too. I think Time Team excavated the armoury site a few years back.


I'm now a bit scared to say that I used to work at the Armouries... though it was only a gift shop gig while I was attending the College of Music so it's probably not me that EG is pissed at...

Anyway, yeah it's quite good. Also, the armoury at Wawel Castle in Krakow has tons of 15th and 16th century German weapons and armour if that's what you're into.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

I would say it was more likely to be Maxmillian... I could check to, but I can't be bothered either :L

[mikethefish]

Yes you need more to get larger armies but contrary to popular opinion 500-750pt games are perfectly fun and you can scale up over time. You don't need to have 1500 points right away, you can if you have the money but you don't need to.

They are not nearly as fun - or as balanced - as games in the 1500 pt range. And it's also difficult to find players who are willing to play at such a small points level.

In other words - not really a viable option. It's technically true that you can play GW games at a small points level, but the reality of the situation is a bit different.

[Commissar Lewis]

Huh, recently I decided to browse the GW site and it's prices are back to how they were before. That is, $49.50 for a Leman Russ instead of $83.

I'm baffled. And no longer priced outta the hobby. But mostly confused; I'll turn to some Jameson for answers.

[daboarder]

Huh, recently I decided to browse the GW site and it's prices are back to how they were before. That is, $49.50 for a Leman Russ instead of $83.

I'm baffled. And no longer priced outta the hobby. But mostly confused; I'll turn to some Jameson for answers.

thats just the Auzzie tax. Grab a bottle of Bundy and join the club.

[eldargal]

Really? So all those fun 750/1000pt games and 250/500pt kill team games I've played actually weren't fun at all? Who would have thought it.:rolleyes:


They are not nearly as fun - or as balanced - as games in the 1500 pt range. And it's also difficult to find players who are willing to play at such a small points level.

In other words - not really a viable option. It's technically true that you can play GW games at a small points level, but the reality of the situation is a bit different.

[Lemt]

Really? So all those fun 750/1000pt games and 250/500pt kill team games I've played actually weren't fun at all? Who would have thought it.:rolleyes:

You have no right to have fun at those point levels!

On an unrelated note, I've finally gotten my hands on Finecast minis. Apparently there are some known problems with some minis. Coteaz has an eagle that frequently has a bubble on the beak, and the Terminator Librarian's bolter is commonly miscast. I know because a red shirt told me, but every mini I looked at was fine.

I'm converting an Abbadon into Horus (I'm turning the Horus Heresy image into miniature form), and I really like the Finecast resin. It's slightly brittle, but I've dropped it from table height several times on purpose and nothing happened.

Last but not least, the extra resin you get on the minis is GREAT for sculpting. The material they've used obviously holds detail very well, but it's also soft enough so that you can take a chunk and sculpt it into anything you want. Honestly, I'm going to use it to make all the little details that would be extremely hard to do with GS.