Throne of Skulls DE list comparisons

[The other guy]

I went to Throne Of Skulls in April, and managed a respectable 2wins, 2draws and a loss. This was my first ever tournament, and my first time with the army (save a practice game after registering for the tourney).

Game 1 – win against terminator heavy Space Wolves. He had 12 models inc 2 landraders. I wiped whole army off the board.
Game 2 – Loss against Close Combat Dark Eldar (They got into combat before I could shoot them) The guy played better then me. He won overall best Dark Eldar player.

Game 3 - Draw against Tau, but I was lucky to get that. He out-shot my shooty army. I should have assaulted him, but I was too focused on shooting. It was capture and control, and just managed to hold mine, while he comfortably held his.

Game 4 – Draw against Chaos Space Marines. Close game. Objectives. End turn 5 im winning. End turn 6 He is winning. End turn 7 and Game is drawn.

Game 5 – Win against Space marines. Easy win, bad deployment by opponent. Took out all his tanks turn 1, kept raiders out of his range and just shot unit after unit to death.

Things I learned –
1 – I have practically no close combat. The Archon only got into combat twice in 5 games.
2 – Night Shields did save many ships from short-range fire. Flicker Fields also were vital.
3 – I lost less raiders then I expected.
4 – I had almost too much Anti-tank.
5 – Having lots of troop is great. Many opponents were focusing on taking out troop in objective games, rather than possessing the objectives.

THEREFOR –

Please can you look at my two lists, and see if you think I should make changes.

Original List

HQ
Archon, Agoniser, Blaster
95 Points

ELITE
Kabalite Trueborn x 9, Dracon, Shredder x 4, Shardcarbine x 3, Splinter Cannon x 2,
168
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points
(Archon with this unit)

TROOP
Kabalite Warriors x 10, Sybarite, Blaster
115 Points
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points

Kabalite Warriors x 10, Sybarite, Blaster
115 Points
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points

Kabalite Warriors x 10, Sybarite, Blaster
115 Points
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points

Kabalite Warriors x 10, Sybarite, Blaster
115 Points
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points

HEAVY

Ravager, 3 x Dark Lances, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
125 Points

Ravager, 3 x Dark Lances, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
125 Points

Ravager, 3 x Disintegrator Cannons, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
125 Points

1498 total

NEW LIST

HQ
Archon, Agoniser, Blaster
95 Points

Haemonculus, Venom Blade,
55 Points

ELITE
Grotesques x 4
140 Points
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points
(Archon and Haemonculus in this unit)

TROOP
Kabalite Warriors x 10, Sybarite, Blaster
115 Points
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points

Kabalite Warriors x 10, Sybarite, Blaster
115 Points
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points

Kabalite Warriors x 10, Sybarite, Blaster
115 Points
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points

Kabalite Warriors x 10, Sybarite, Blaster
115 Points
Dedicated Raider, Dark Lance, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
80 Points

HEAVY

Ravager, 3 x Dark Lances, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
125 Points

Ravager, 3 x Disintegrator Cannons, Night Shields, Flicker Fields
125 Points

Talos,
100 Points

1500 Exactly


Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.
God, I love quoting star wars

[davel]

I have a theory on throne of skulls

dark eldar are likely to win tournie overall

this is due to them being a either win big or lose big.

those who loose big lower the average army score down,giving those who win big get a boost over more forgiving " can hang on in for the draw" races.

so if you are good dark eldar player the trophy is there for the taking, but you do have to be good.

Dave l

[The other guy]

The Throne Of Skulls i went to in April was won by a sisters-of-battle army. Big surprise, but the guy played like a legend.

I really dont think you can predict the results too much. Lots of good players at the event, who can turn a rules poor army into a really good army.

Any idea on which list i should use?

[DarkLink]

Who says Sisters are a rules poor army? Their options may be a little limited and sometimes overpriced, but they're still a solid codex. It was really only Daemonhunters and Necrons that genuinely sucked.

[davel]

I'm a craft world player
my experience of dark eldar is this
ravs with lances crack my transports but don't do much to occupants
ravs with dis murder my squads but can't crack my transports
So I'd say list 1 over list two
I run a mech list so don't like dark lances, if your dark rav wiffs the second can step up. Meaning your dis rave 'sn't deprived of targets.

That said I have not played against a talos yet

as for the sister winning throne of skulls I think my theory still holds as

1) any decent tournie army has to be able to take on marines and win
2) sisters are easier to destroy than marines as they are T3
3) therefore they will get beaten a lot giving those players who can and do use them well a big margin over those who wiff with them ( hey it happens as rolls of 1 happen)

also there is the statistic thing armies that show in small numbers tend to take the big margins. I'm guessing ( from my ToS and other tournies) thar there were approx 3 sisters armies.

dave l

[thecactusman17]

I'm a craft world player
my experience of dark eldar is this
ravs with lances crack my transports but don't do much to occupants
ravs with dis murder my squads but can't crack my transports
So I'd say list 1 over list two
I run a mech list so don't like dark lances, if your dark rav wiffs the second can step up. Meaning your dis rave 'sn't deprived of targets.

That said I have not played against a talos yet

as for the sister winning throne of skulls I think my theory still holds as

1) any decent tournie army has to be able to take on marines and win
2) sisters are easier to destroy than marines as they are T3
3) therefore they will get beaten a lot giving those players who can and do use them well a big margin over those who wiff with them ( hey it happens as rolls of 1 happen)

also there is the statistic thing armies that show in small numbers tend to take the big margins. I'm guessing ( from my ToS and other tournies) thar there were approx 3 sisters armies.

dave l

Sisters of Battle? They are harder to kill than you suggest, as any serious SoB player knows. T3 is countered by one of the few pre-5th edition armies with 3++ saves and they absolutely murder most space marines in the shooting phase. Add in all sorts of anti-horde weaponry and you have a versatile army that really just goes to town on unprepared players.

[DarkLink]

Right, Sisters will have quite a few more bodies than Marines due to the fact that they're cheaper and rely on fewer supporting units. On top of that, Marines can't get 3++ saves, rending bolters and flamers, double meltas in basic squads or heavy flamers on pretty much every unit.

[davel]

You may find it difficult to shift troops in cover on objective. Having an assault unit will help as loosing assault inflicts massive ld penalties. If you want to keep your troop count high go wytches

On the sisters thing I'm not saying they are identical to SM and I'm not saying they don't have tricks ( I've lost count of squads who have a paper back copy of their sacred book. Water stones best seller of 41st millennium)

I'm saying weapons that are good against marines are good for sisters and most tournie armies will have them.

their faith points can be generated by buying certain units but mostly from loosing units.
With 5th missions relying on kill points or specific units to stay alive neither situation makes winning a game easier even if it generates faith points

Was I correct about the number of WH armies? I'm not going to gloat as I have started to see a decline in eldar on the tournie scene( 3 armies at last one including me). Seems our dexs may be heading the way of tau and rons

dave l

[The other guy]

You may find it difficult to shift troops in cover on objective. Having an assault unit will help as loosing assault inflicts massive ld penalties. If you want to keep your troop count high go wytches

Was I correct about the number of WH armies? I'm not going to gloat as I have started to see a decline in eldar on the tournie scene( 3 armies at last one including me). Seems our dexs may be heading the way of tau and rons

dave l

The first army list (the one i took to the first tournement) is a pure Kabalite, and i made the fluff around it. Suggesting a Kabal that does not trust anyone else, with the possible exception of the haemonculus covens.

I get your point about cover, and the Archon comes with defensive grenades as standard, so he could still attack at normal Initiative.

And im playing a shooty army. The main aim is to shooty them! I hit/slash/attack them with a pointed stick if i cant shift their own fire-base


I dont remember if it was 2 or 3 witch hunters, but it was not a huge number. Saw quite a few normal eldar, and tau. I admit i didn't see any Necrons...

[Cheese]

Your first list is better. Mainly because Grotesques are just bad and the Talos just doesn't fit the list. A Cronos would be better. Anyway, your Archon loadout isn't particularly great either. With the loadout he's got, a Succubus would be far better and the Blast Pistol is just a waste of points.

Shredders are OK, but not great. i'd change the Shredders for more Shardcarbines. Drop the Archon, the Sybarites and the Night Shields from the Ravagers (Night Shields are for stopping mid-range fire) and get Duke Sliscus for this unit. The amount of 3+ poison shots you're getting is just brutal. To get some CC in there, you might want to drop 1 Warrior squad for either some Incubi or some Bloodbrides.

[The other guy]

Your first list is better. Mainly because Grotesques are just bad and the Talos just doesn't fit the list. A Cronos would be better. Anyway, your Archon loadout isn't particularly great either. With the loadout he's got, a Succubus would be far better and the Blast Pistol is just a waste of points.

Shredders are OK, but not great. i'd change the Shredders for more Shardcarbines. Drop the Archon, the Sybarites and the Night Shields from the Ravagers (Night Shields are for stopping mid-range fire) and get Duke Sliscus for this unit. The amount of 3+ poison shots you're getting is just brutal. To get some CC in there, you might want to drop 1 Warrior squad for either some Incubi or some Bloodbrides.

Why are Grotesques "just bad"?

It would be a waste if the Archon was armed with a blast pistol. But he is armed with a full blaster. A BS7, 18inch Strength8 Lance? Yes please

Why do you think a Cronos would be better than a talos?

[Cheese]

Grotesques look good on paper, but they are just not worth their points. They explode if you don't have a HQ with them. Really, it's because they're too expensive, you can't get enough of them and we have other Elites that do a better job.

Even with a Blaster, it's not that great. It's a single Lance weapon in a unit and Lances really don't do that well at taking down armour, at least not as easily as many would like to think. Also, dropping him for Sliscus will work better.

The Talos doesn't fit because it's too slow. In Coven lists they work and fit in perfectly well, but not here. The Cronos would be better because he can shoot, getting some kills first or 2nd turn with the Spirit Vortex and he would bolster your force and support your units better.