6th edition rules - vehicles

[ArmyC]

Based off this
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/05/goatboy-looking-at-6th-and-whats-ahead.html

My thoughts are to expand the damage table. With +1 for melta and AP1, and all the negative modifiers, why not go to 7 and down to 0?

I like Goatboy's idea that all results on the damage table include the "shaken" result automatically. I prefer a penetrating hit is shaken, but a glancing hit allows defensive weapons to fire. I would also like the definition of defensive weapons to change to allow the 2nd weapon to fire as a defensive weapon. If the vehicle only has 2 weapons, but both are S6 well I'm sorry for being technologically advanced, but why can't I shoot!

7-explodes-occupants take S5 hit and autopinned
6-explodes-occupants take S4 hit and take pin check at -1 per unsaved wound
5-destroyed-occupants exit and take pin check
4-system failure, immobilized and all weapons fail
3-immobilized
2-offensive weapon destroyed
1-defensive weapon destroyed
0-stunned

Also cover from woods, and units needs to change to a 5+ cover save.

[DrLove42]

Personally I Don't agree with nearly anything that man said in his post (no change there then) except for Vehicle saves should be 5+ not 4+ (even though as a DE player that'd hurt)

Defensive weapons should stay as they are...otherwise on your rules I could move a Falcon at high speed and fire a Bright Lance cos its a "second weapon"

[Denzark]

I don't like the autopinning idea. Pinning needs to be consistent. If there is a chance you will stay up in the face of the hardest artillery barrage or intense sniper fire, then there should be a chance you will bail out of your vehicle OK and ready to fight.

[Rissan4ever]

I think the vehicle rules are just fine the way they are. Yes, tanks are tougher than they were in 4th Ed., but so what? Tanks are supposed to be tough; they're TANKS. Denzark makes a good point about Pinning consistency, and I think the other rules need to be consistent, too.

The game is based on D6s, so no chart should exceed results 1-6. Reliance on charts in general and the complexity of the charts should be as minimal as possible. I agree with Goatboy on that point. ArmyC's expanded chart is unnecessarily complicated, IMO.

A cover save is a cover save. If it's 4+ for infantry, it should be 4+ for vehicles. It's already pretty hard to get a cover save for a vehicle in the first place, so making it 5+ is overkill.

The Defensive Weapons rule is there to balance the fact that vehicles are very mobile and are tougher to kill than they were in 4th Ed. I think that's pretty fair.

[Anggul]

Transports sucked in 4th ed because vehicles were so easy to destroy. Making it easy to render a vehicle useless again would just be regression in my opinion. Some things might be changed for the better, but I'm happy to see the damage chart stay as it is, apart from perhaps giving vehicles a distinction of 'transport' or 'gunship' as their primary type. Transports have weapon destroyed on a 3, immobilized on a 4, gunships have it the other way around, as currently if I'm firing at a Predator, Vindicator or some such thing, I'd rather roll lower and destroy a weapon or shake/stun it than roll higher and stop it from moving. There's something not right about that. However, this is just a little thing and I wouldn't really care if they didn't bother.

[Rissan4ever]

Again, that's over-complicating the damage chart. The difference between a 3 and 4 on one D6 is nothing; there's a 1 in 6 chance of either one.

[mstingray]

It would be good to choose from an immobilised result and a weapon destroyed one.

[Lane]

I think the vehicle rules are just fine the way they are. Yes, tanks are tougher than they were in 4th Ed., but so what? Tanks are supposed to be tough; they're TANKS. Denzark makes a good point about Pinning consistency, and I think the other rules need to be consistent, too.

Given the short weapon ranges and focus on HtH I would say the the game is about small unit firefights so vehicles should be at a disadvantage. OTOH a tank should have a much longer range main gun compared to man portable versions.

On the pinning issue I can see an alternative. Troops forced to disembark by damage count as gone to ground.



The game is based on D6s, so no chart should exceed results 1-6. Reliance on charts in general and the complexity of the charts should be as minimal as possible. I agree with Goatboy on that point. ArmyC's expanded chart is unnecessarily complicated, IMO.

So we should never have BS 6 or above, no T7 models, no AV 14 or rending weapons?

I'm fine with a damage chart that goes from 0 to 7+.

The problem is how to extend the chart without giving an unfair advantage to some models.
If you expand the weapon damage section then transports get an boost,

I can see adding a middle result for shaken/ stunned section.
0: Primary shaken - may not file primary weapons
1: All shaken - may not fire any weapon
2: Stunned - may not move or shoot

Note that you only get a primary shaken on a glance thus it's lesser effect.

I would also add that shaken on a vehicle with no weapons remaining becomes a stunned result.

Allowing attackers to upgrade shaken to driver stunned on transports would balance things a bit as well. As is transports can still perform their mission on damage results 1 and 4 assuming they have any weapons.




A cover save is a cover save. If it's 4+ for infantry, it should be 4+ for vehicles. It's already pretty hard to get a cover save for a vehicle in the first place, so making it 5+ is overkill.

I see tanks get cover saves a lot. Depends on the terrain. Then there was the guy that parked his Land Raider behind a Rhino.

[Mauglum.]

If its SIMPLE vehicle damage rules you want ...

All Anti Vehicle weapons get a bonus to penetration.(Usualy a D6 as now.)

Other weapons do NOT get any bonus to penetration vs vehicles .

Add the penetration dice roll (if aplicable ) to the str of the weapon.
Subtract the AV value from this total .
If the result is less than 0 the attack has no effect.
If the result is 0 the crew is shaken.
If the result is 1 or more the crew /passengers are stunned , and the vehicle looses this many structure points.

Vehilces have structure points given to armament and mobility.
1 structure point per weapon , and one mobility point per factor.

Armament points reduce the ofencive capabilities first.When a vehicle reaches 0 armamanet structure points it must pass a moral check or fall back next turn.

When a vehicle reaches 0 mobility points its classed as desroyed.

I an attack reduces the vehicle to below 0 mobility structure points , it explodes with a blast radius of this many inches.Any pasengers must take this many unmodified saves .

I may not have explianed this very well, but feel free to ask questions..:D

[Grimfoe]

If you're frustrated by the new vehicle rules and their simplicity, you're not alone. Many of the older gamers have been for some time. There is really no reason to reinvent the wheel here. If you want better vehicle rules bring back the second edition rules. They were much better.

Back in my day, vehicles could move and shoot. :eek:

You had different modifiers to hit and penetrate that made sense. :D

You could only blow up weapons that you could see. :p

Really, though, they dumbed down the rules significantly moving to third. That's why many of us quit the game for a while. The rules have gotten better, but second edition was still far superior with respect to vehicles and several other things.

[Lane]

. If you want better vehicle rules bring back the second edition rules. They were much better.


LOL I was going to use the 2nd ed rules as an example of what not to do.

I liked the concept but that damned targeting template to find where you hit was a PITA.

[Wolfshade]

If its SIMPLE vehicle damage rules you want ...

All Anti Vehicle weapons get a bonus to penetration.(Usualy a D6 as now.)

Other weapons do NOT get any bonus to penetration vs vehicles .

Add the penetration dice roll (if aplicable ) to the str of the weapon.
Subtract the AV value from this total .
If the result is less than 0 the attack has no effect.
If the result is 0 the crew is shaken.
If the result is 1 or more the crew /passengers are stunned , and the vehicle looses this many structure points.


I liked this idea as it was similar to the wounding infantry, but now I think about it, there needs to be some mechanic to enable instant death to vehicles, otherwise it'll be like only ever being able to roll a weapon destroyed result at the moment. But then again I suppose that would then go against it being a simple damage rule

[Psychosplodge]

Transports sucked in 4th ed because vehicles were so easy to destroy. .

ROFLAMO
try playing a game of 2nd ed. with the tracked coffins...

[Grimfoe]

I disagree. You could actually move up, disembark and attack, for one thing. Add to that you could move and shoot. Vehicles were much more effective.

But I know I'm biased. This was the best edition of the game. I know that many of you will disagree, but many of the older players still feel that way. It was hero hammer, but it was balanced. You could still die if you were shot with a lascannon or hit with a vortex grenade. Many of us liked that dynamic. Vehicles can be blown up fairly easily now, just as in 2nd edition. Or they can take a crap load of hits without blowing up.

[Diagnosis Ninja]

I've wrote a bunch of stuff which I feel is a midground between the Parking lot of today, and coffins-on-treads of yore.

Damage
I like the idea of a constant effect on every result, but it seems a bit excessive. I mean, a destroyed vehicle can't shoot anyway, right? What about changing Shaken?

Shaken: The vehicle can fire one weapon less than normal until the end of its next turn. Shaken can be stacked multiple times.

Then, expand the table so that it includes results outside one to six.

0: Shaken.
1: Double Shaken.
2: Shaken and Stunned.
3: Weapon Destroyed and Shaken.
4: Immobilised and Shaken.
5: Vehicle Destroyed. Leaves Wreckage as cover.
6: Vehicle Explodes. Leaves nothing, causes AoE damage. Moving Skimmer Crashes instead.
7: Vehicle Annihilated! Leaves Crater as cover, causes AoE damage. Moving Skimmer Crashes instead, then leaves a crater.

Crash
Skimmer Scatters D6 inches, and wrecks, staying at least an inch away from other units. AoE damage on impact.

Realistically, it means only the most well armed of tanks can still fire anything on the roll of one or two, impacts a vehicles capability on each roll, and also means that Weapon Destroyed can greatly affect capability, negating two guns.

Cover
Include various scales of Vehicle coverage for cover saves.

Obscured: 50% Coverage. 5+ Save.
Concealed: 75% Coverage. 4+ Save.

Transport
Leadership test on Penetrating hit. Fail = Bail. Unit goes to ground. Means units won't be able to sit inside a pillbox, but doesn't stop them from being useless.

Transport destroyed
Varying Strength hits on transported unit like now.

S4 base.
-1 for open topped.
+1 for a result of Vehicle Explodes!
+2 for a result of Vehicle Annhilated!
Armour Saves Allowed.

So, Dark Eldar in an exploding transport take a S4 hit. Space Marines in an Annihilated Land Raider take S6 hits.



Either that, or... Make standing around a little more preferable.

[Grimfoe]

It woud also be nice to move away from the current facing rules. It's a bit silly to see the rhinos slide across the battlefield sideways because they provide better cover that way.

[Psychosplodge]

I disagree. You could actually move up, disembark and attack, for one thing. Add to that you could move and shoot. Vehicles were much more effective.

But I know I'm biased. This was the best edition of the game. I know that many of you will disagree, but many of the older players still feel that way. It was hero hammer, but it was balanced. You could still die if you were shot with a lascannon or hit with a vortex grenade. Many of us liked that dynamic. Vehicles can be blown up fairly easily now, just as in 2nd edition. Or they can take a crap load of hits without blowing up.

Oh I agree 2nd was the best edition, but you had to be very brave to use transports....