Wayland Games official announcement to GW's trade embargo.

[Morgan Darkstar]

Hi Everyone,

Before we start, if you'd allow me to present a little background about Wayland before we get into the meat of the issue I'd be grateful. We laid out our little web store back in August 2008, our beginnings were humble, with my brother and I packing orders in a spare room. It wasn't ideal but it was what we had to start with and we grew and grew through the continued business of our loyal customers through four warehouses to our current location. In thirty three months we have gone from a spare room in Essex, UK with my brother and I packing boxes to a global operation with fourteen full time staff which is now positioned as one of the largest if not the largest independent hobby retailer in the world. We run our business today as we always have done, in a professional and ethical manner both within the letter and the spirit of the law. Almost all suppliers like us, customers enjoy our openness and service-oriented outlook and whilst we're realistic enough to know we're not by any means perfect we will always strive to improve to ensure our central tenet of great prices and better service.

Managing such growth has been far from simple; we have experienced growing pains like any business in any sector that has exploded in market share terms. Our growing pains have also been more painful as we continually seek to adjust to a shifting commercial landscape from our dominant supplier, Games Workshop. Like many of you, I believe that Games Workshop produce a fantastic product which gives endless joy to countless people. I am proud to be associated with them. Unsurprisingly, therefore, I read with real concern the statement by the CEO Mark Wells over the new trade terms which effectively prevents us selling Games Workshop supplied products outside Europe. Mark's statement can be found at:
http://www.facebook.com/notes/games-workshop/our-changes-to-european-trading-terms/227996923881812

Mark seems to be clearly of the view that on-line retailers (and we are not purely that, of course given our bricks and mortar presence) ?free ride? on the back of Games Workshop?s bricks and mortar outlets. We have sought over the years, and I thought with some success and recognition, to demonstrate to Games Workshop the value that we provide not just in terms of sales but also in terms of pre and after sales service (not to mention our activities at trade fairs), which is clearly equivalent to the service that is provided on the ?ground? by bricks and mortar outlets. Quite aside from the legality of Games Workshop?s actions, we are confused by the commercial attitude of Games Workshop which hampers our ability to sell to hobbyists to the clear disadvantage of both Games Workshop (albeit maybe not their retail arm) and the hobbyists themselves.

I will not air anyone's dirty laundry in public. Therefore, I am writing to Games Workshop separately (its board, lawyers and their principal shareholders) to share my concerns in greater depth. I hope that commercial common sense will prevail and that we can continue to work with Games Workshop to expand their market and bring a great product to as many people as possible at the best price possible. After all, Games Workshop not only has a clear responsibility to the market but also a clear responsibility to its shareholders (which, after all, could be you and me!).
In the meantime, we believe after the announced terms are implemented we shall be able to continue to offer all of our loyal customers the same product range that we offer today. There may be a small lead time to implement but we've been given a rather short period to react. We will comply fully and completely with the new terms and conditions of sale imposed upon us and will not contravene them in any capacity whatsoever (albeit we would not wish that to be seen as acceptance of their legality), all we seek to achieve is that customers both old and new are able to benefit from our view of the market wherever they are located. We all love our hobby.
Over the next few weeks we'll be providing updates as to how the process of implementing these changes is coming along, the chances are we'll use Facebook to disseminate this information as it is a great platform for customers to interact with us and each other. We look forward to continue to serve you and we always will.

Keep on Wargaming.

Richard.
Wayland Games

Well it looks like good news for you non EU types wayland seems to have found a way around GW's trade restrictions. let the rejoicing begin

more info in the next few days & weeks.

[MarneusCalgar]

Thanks for posting the letter!!!

Hope they continue selling for all of you, non EU traders!!

[LostInTheDark]

If they try some shenanigans to continue distributing to the rest of the world they run the risk of GW refusing to supply in a similar way that Battlefront screwed Maelstrom recently. All they did was sell their product at too low a price.

Being in Aus I hope it pans out.

[Wathapend2urfase]

It's nice to have a company that can get a few lawyers to help. I ordered everything from wayland... everything.

[Wildeybeast]

I can understand where Wayland are coming from but they really are playing with fire. Not only have they completely failed to understand GW's point that they are not doing anything to increase GW's customerbase they seem to be implying that they intend to find a way round GW's trade embargo, which would be a profoundly stupid thing to do. GW has shown that they are more than willing to take legal action against anyone who crosses them and by Wayland's own admission GW is their 'dominant supplier'. GW could simply get huffy, take their ball home and not play with Wayland any more, which leaves them well and truly up the creek without a padle. I suspect that there would be considerably less than 14 full time staff if that happened.
Tread very carefully Wayland, it's never advisable to bite the hand that feeds you.

[flekkzo]

I can understand where Wayland are coming from but they really are playing with fire. Not only have they completely failed to understand GW's point that they are not doing anything to increase GW's customerbase they seem to be implying that they intend to find a way round GW's trade embargo, which would be a profoundly stupid thing to do. GW has shown that they are more than willing to take legal action against anyone who crosses them and by Wayland's own admission GW is their 'dominant supplier'. GW could simply get huffy, take their ball home and not play with Wayland any more, which leaves them well and truly up the creek without a padle. I suspect that there would be considerably less than 14 full time staff if that happened.
Tread very carefully Wayland, it's never advisable to bite the hand that feeds you.

Question is, how much are they loosing on not being able to sell to outside of Europe? I am pretty sure that they will have to fire people because of GW's actions.

I think that if GW wants their stores to be more profitable / grow the hobby more, they should find a way to do so without using strong arm tactics. Create better stores, have more events, have them be a haven of hobbydom. Make it worth while paying their prices in their store. It's the reason I pay full price at my local store even though I can get hold of things cheaper. It's because I like the store, and without it I have nowhere to play. Make it worth my while and I'll support you. Simple as that!

[Lexington]

Tread very carefully Wayland, it's never advisable to bite the hand that feeds you.
Ah, if only GW felt the same way...

[Wildeybeast]

Question is, how much are they loosing on not being able to sell to outside of Europe? I am pretty sure that they will have to fire people because of GW's actions.

I think that if GW wants their stores to be more profitable / grow the hobby more, they should find a way to do so without using strong arm tactics. Create better stores, have more events, have them be a haven of hobbydom. Make it worth while paying their prices in their store. It's the reason I pay full price at my local store even though I can get hold of things cheaper. It's because I like the store, and without it I have nowhere to play. Make it worth my while and I'll support you. Simple as that!

Agree with everything you said, and they may well improve their stores with the extra money they pick up having cut out the likes of Wayland. But at the same time, Wayland and others were undercutting GW's market without doing anything to grow it, so I can see both sides. By the sounds of it GW had two choices
1) cut out wayland et al and raise international prices
2) Scale back their store presence in places like Oz
Either way, customers and the hobby suffers, GW had to make a decision as to whic one would have the least damage.

[Mobynick]

Wildeybeast are you a GW employee ? Your comments to me seem out of touch and imply a lack of understanding.

" We will comply fully and completely with the new terms and conditions of sale imposed upon us and will not contravene them in any capacity whatsoever" how is this "playing with fire". How is compliance while questioning the legalities "biting the hand that feeds them? Honestly I will buy all my products from Wayland now because they alone have shown that they will fight for their customers rather than hobble them like GW seems intent to do. I appreciate Waylands courage and integity, traits long lacking within GW.

"Wayland and others were undercutting GW's market without doing anything to grow it". Really I would have thought selling GW products at a fair and reasonable price would indeed "grow" the hobby. Wayland has also stated that they do displays and turn up to major events. GW can't be bothered to do the same in Australia or Canada...proberbly not NZ either. GW has been lazy and have grossly overpriced their products here and now seek to blame inderpendants for GW stupidity. The current trend with GW stores is that they are closing them all over the globe, scalling back and not opening new hobby stores. So they themselves are cutting back their own bricks and mortar.

Surely the smart thing to do would be to see why the independants are so successfull. Little overheads better prices. Perhaps this is the model GW should aim for, maybe then they could "support" the hobby properly by visiting gameing clubs, giving each country a gamesday of their own and building some good will.

[daboarder]

Agree with everything you said, and they may well improve their stores with the extra money they pick up having cut out the likes of Wayland. But at the same time, Wayland and others were undercutting GW's market without doing anything to grow it, so I can see both sides. By the sounds of it GW had two choices
1) cut out wayland et al and raise international prices
2) Scale back their store presence in places like Oz
Either way, customers and the hobby suffers, GW had to make a decision as to whic one would have the least damage.

3) actually charge international customers an appropriate cost for the product?


see if they did that they wouldn't be hanging themselves right now.

[Wildeybeast]

Wildeybeast are you a GW employee ? Your comments to me seem out of touch and imply a lack of understanding.

" We will comply fully and completely with the new terms and conditions of sale imposed upon us and will not contravene them in any capacity whatsoever" how is this "playing with fire". How is compliance while questioning the legalities "biting the hand that feeds them? Honestly I will buy all my products from Wayland now because they alone have shown that they will fight for their customers rather than hobble them like GW seems intent to do. I appreciate Waylands courage and integity, traits long lacking within GW.

"Wayland and others were undercutting GW's market without doing anything to grow it". Really I would have thought selling GW products at a fair and reasonable price would indeed "grow" the hobby. Wayland has also stated that they do displays and turn up to major events. GW can't be bothered to do the same in Australia or Canada...proberbly not NZ either. GW has been lazy and have grossly overpriced their products here and now seek to blame inderpendants for GW stupidity. The current trend with GW stores is that they are closing them all over the globe, scalling back and not opening new hobby stores. So they themselves are cutting back their own bricks and mortar.

Surely the smart thing to do would be to see why the independants are so successfull. Little overheads better prices. Perhaps this is the model GW should aim for, maybe then they could "support" the hobby properly by visiting gameing clubs, giving each country a gamesday of their own and building some good will.

1) No I'm not and out of touch with what or who exactly? There are plenty of folk who agree with me.
2) "we shall be able to continue to offer all of our loyal customers the same product range that we offer today." Well clearly they can't do that without either flouting GW's embargo in some fashion or providing a legal challenge which I doubt they can afford and will most probably lose since GW will have checked the legality of this very carefully before going ahead with.
3) GW is not against independents. They are all for them, particularly in areas where GW doesn't have stores. They said that in their press release. What they are against is web retailers in areas where they have a limited store presence. People get into GW one of 2 ways. Either they are introduced by someone they know, or they wander past one of their stores. In most cases they are fairly young when this happens, so either way, bricks and mortar shops act as gateway into the hobby. Wayland does not. They have nothing in the way of stores and very little in the way of web advertising. People only go to Wayland and co once they are already into wargaming, they aren't already shopping at Wayland for bread and decide to make an impulse purchase of Noise Marines. Ditto for people at these wargaming trade fairs that wayland is using to claim they introduce people to the hobby What wayland were doing however, is selling GW products cheaper than GW was in Australia. As GW explained, this was because the store and web sales are supporting their store presence in Australia and other similar countries. Wayland does not have to worry about this. GW cannot use sales in the UK or US to prop up smaller countries, GW Australia has to support its own stores. If it doesn't, the stores close. GW doesn't want this, so they pay higher prices to support their stores.
4) What exactly is a fair and reasonable price? You tell me, what would be a fair price for say a box of space marines?
5) Are you seriously suggesting that a multinational corporation should close all it's stores and lay off most of it's workforce to reduce overheads so that they can come and do a personal visit to your gaming club? And yet I am the one with the 'lack of understanding'.

[Drew da Destroya]

all[/B] of our loyal customers the same product range that we offer today." Well clearly they can't do that without either flouting GW's embargo in some fashion or providing a legal challenge which I doubt they can afford and will most probably lose since GW will have checked the legality of this very carefully before going ahead with.

4) What exactly is a fair and reasonable price? You tell me, what would be a fair price for say a box of space marines?


Not covering all of your points, but these two I can answer:

2) I'd assume that Wayland is going to open up something to act as a "store", so they'd have an Ozzie location to "ship" from. I believe that'd be within the letter of their agreement with GW.

4) With current conversion rates, I'd say about $35.25 AUS. Maybe throw in $5-10 for shipping. A bit of a far cry from the $62 AUS listed on the website, and paid in the brick and mortar stores.

[Wildeybeast]

1) Sounds reasoanble enough to me and would probably make GW reasonably happy, providing it was a proper shop and not just a warehouse with a front desk that you can pick stuff up from.

2) $35.25 based on UK retail cost yes? So that takes us to a retail price of $45.25 with shipping. Then you need to add Australian VAT (despite GW having already paid UK VAT on them), which if wikipedia isn't lying to me, is 10% which takes us to around $50 dollars. So then we are only $12 dollars short, which is made up of underwriting GW's loss making australian stores (the UK retail price will already include their 'profit margin' on what it costs to make). So you could pay around $50 dollars for a box of space marines but would have no stores to sell them, or GW could just not make a profit and go out of business.

[Gotthammer]

underwriting GW's loss making australian stores

Where is this info from? I've never heard that all GW's in Australia are making losses - they're trying to open new stores but can't get the staff or locations to do so (in Sydney at least).

[Wildeybeast]

I'm made an assumption based on GW's reasoning about charging higher prices to Australia and cutting out Wayland and co which was that they needed to charge higher prices to support their stores. Of course I could be wrong and you could be right that the extra money is actually to fund an expansion of stores. What do they say about assuming making an a*s out of you and me?

[Gotthammer]

Ah, I see. The higher 'support' (I say that loosely given how little GW does officially down here) is due to Australian minimum wages being around double what they are in the US and UK, so it's a more general upkeep thing.

I'd be very happy paying $50 for a Tactical Squad and would accept the price rising again if the pound recovers or the aussie dollar drops. It's the lack of benefit when the dollar is good that grates on me personally (and for the record I've only ever bought locally).

[Wildeybeast]

I can understand the frustration over currency variations, I just guess that the practical implications of having prices constantly fluctuating based on exchange rates means it won't happen. If it's any consolation I'm pretty sure they do the same worldwide - prices in Euro are fixed, as are those in Scandanavian currencies, regardless of their rate against sterling. I suspect the only people not hit by currency differences are the US since they are big enough to warrant their own manufacturing plant. A plant somewhere in SE Asia would allieviate some of the problems, at least with shipping, storage and distribution costs, but the currency issue is always going to be a problem.

[Mobynick]

I'm ignoreing everything other than 4 as we have vastly different opinions but as for your 4th point I would say from the out cry of protest that what games workshop now charges Aussies has already exceeded "fair and reasonable. I still think your a GW employee.

[daboarder]

2) I'd assume that Wayland is going to open up something to act as a "store", so they'd have an Ozzie location to "ship" from. I believe that'd be within the letter of their agreement with GW.


If Wayland do that I will love them forever and ever. Honestly that could get me back as a customer and I would buy from then on ALL hobby material from them regardless of system.

[ankhcitizen]

In Aus GW prices are hefty I mean $62 for a tactical squad I understand GW needs to make a profit but surely it can do better the prices are just too much for me and indeed for many others.
I tried to get some friends who never considered the hobby to take a closer look but the price basically drove them away, when I found Wayland they became interested...without Wayland supplying Aus those guys won't be getting into the hobby and thats customers lost to Wayland AND GW.
I get all my paint/brushes from my local store and on occasion a model when I can (I hate waiting and last time I ordered from Wayland it took 6 wks for my order to arrive ->I bought it from my local store).
My friends would have bought their paint from a local store, my friends would have gotten the odd model here and there from the local store too.
But Aus prices are too high to rely on local stores for all our hobby needs, we lose, Wayland lose, GW lose.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm ignoreing everything other than 4 as we have vastly different opinions but as for your 4th point I would say from the out cry of protest that what games workshop now charges Aussies has already exceeded "fair and reasonable. I still think your a GW employee.

Wish I was dude, then I would get everything dirt cheap! But their pay in the UK is terrible, so it really isn't an option for me. A store manager only makes a couple of k a year more than I used to get working in a call centre.

[wittdooley]

I'm ignoreing everything other than 4 as we have vastly different opinions but as for your 4th point I would say from the out cry of protest that what games workshop now charges Aussies has already exceeded "fair and reasonable. I still think your a GW employee.

So you're ignoring his cogent arguments because you disagree. Way to form an opinion.

[Loken]

Discounting is ruining game stores and running them out of business. GW should disallow ANY discounting and force everyone to charge full price. My buddy just lost his game store because people keep going online to buy their stuff and then come into his store to play! And they admit it! You can't support a store by buying online and then expect the store to support you playing there.

Then GW should stop raising their prices constantly. I am so sick of their greed.

In my book, it is the independent retail store that is getting screwed.


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[Mobynick]

So you're ignoring his cogent arguments because you disagree. Way to form an opinion.

No because they've already been adressed. Your comment hardly added to the debate?

[Malachi]

Discounting is ruining game stores and running them out of business. GW should disallow ANY discounting and force everyone to charge full price. My buddy just lost his game store because people keep going online to buy their stuff and then come into his store to play! And they admit it! You can't support a store by buying online and then expect the store to support you playing there.

This appears to be GW's opinion as well. Their move to disallow internet retailers from shipping to other parts of the world was done (by their statement) in support of local retailers. I still believe that the future of more "fringe" hobbies continues to be built in the retail stores. Those of us in these hobbies should take the opportunity to support your FLGS at every opportunity.

[Necron2.0]

http://www.filmcostume.com/Nute%20Gunray3.jpg

Games Workshop says, "DON'T MESS WITH OUR EMBARGO!!!"

[wittdooley]

No because they've already been adressed. Your comment hardly added to the debate?

You're right, that one doesn't. I've offered plenty other elsewhere that you do. Not addressing his points because you disagree doesn't get anywhere...

[helvexis]

I completely agree that you should support you flgs and I do but seeing as it's going to cost me $165au for a box of bloodnights ... We as players and even the owner and staff have a hard time justifying those kind of price increases

And I would have no problem if there was any evidence at all to show there was an actual reason to the price increase this yr ... But if there was a reason they wouldn't of essentially hid the information on the website ...

[Daemonette666]

I think you interpreted their reply wrong Wildeybeast.

They said they would contact GW and try to persuade them to reconsider their policy. They want to explain the benefits GW gets from their service, extending GWs market base to places where GW does not have stores or bricks and mortar outlets. There was someone from Christmas Island or somewhere like that on this site who commented about only being able to order GW products online as they did not have a gaming/ hobby store of any kind near them, and it would cost too much to have a GW store in Australia ship things to them.

Wayland games also said they would comply with GWs final decision as they did not want to get into a legal battle, but they wanted their loyal customers, that they would continue to try to get GW to counter their controversial new policy through discussion, and they would get their lawyers to see if GW had any legal standing to enforce the new policy, or whether it was an illegal policy that would breach trading laws.

I do not order miniatures online much at all, except where they are very hard to get a hold of - such as when I built up my 3000 points Adeptus Arbites army (BOLS Minidex) using 2nd and 3rd edition Arbites miniatures from ebay, and other sources.

I personally think GW does not have the right to prohibit online sellers, and even bricks and mortar retail shops from selling to non European markets. If GW does not drop its prices to bring their product price inline with the new value of the Australian ans New Zealand dollar, then they are as bad as the Petrol companies who keep increasing prices when our dollar is at a low value, but do not drop their prices when the dollar changes to a higher value than previous when compared to the English Pound.

It does not cost them any more to pay their staff as their GM has stated. If you sell a miniature box set for a AU$50.00 and it costs you AU$30.00 to produce it, post it, pay for staff, and rental of the shop, development costs and all other factors added in, then when the value of the Australian dollars changes so that it now costs you only AU$24.00 because we need less dollars to equal an English Pound, then GW is still making a Huge profit. Why put the prices up?

No wonder the gaming community is in such an uproar about GW and their greedy dwarvish ways (short arms and long pockets).

Places like Wayland games picked up the slack for GW, and their stores internationally. How many people on assignment in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc would bother to order anything while over seas in remote areas. How many people who live in remote areas would order any GW products if it were not for Wayland games and their ability to provide a reasonable price for the model and postage when it would cost too much if dealing directly through the nearest GW store - that is if GW would even offer a delivery service to their location/country.

I am all for the little man providing competition to keep the big wigs honest, and stop companies from price fixing. The consumer has the right to a reasonably price and service, and yes sure the supplier has to make some profit, but when their profits grow astronomically out of proportion with what they are actually providing, then we need an alternative option to force the big stores to keep their prices at a reasonable level.

As to daboarders comment about charging international customers more for their product to come into line with GWs prices, I think GW should reduce their prices to come into line with Wayland Games prices. They would still make profit, and they would get a greater share of the market as customers would go back to GW shops to buy the miniatures.

[Kawauso]

As to daboarders comment about charging international customers more for their product to come into line with GWs prices, I think GW should reduce their prices to come into line with Wayland Games prices. They would still make profit, and they would get a greater share of the market as customers would go back to GW shops to buy the miniatures.

This. A thousand times this.
I can't help but wonder exactly why this simply doesn't happen.

[Gotthammer]

Because GW also has to pay for moulding equipment, sculptors, designers, writers, artists, printers, translators, legal team, larger staffing, warehousing, materials etc etc

[Mobynick]

You're right, that one doesn't. I've offered plenty other elsewhere that you do. Not addressing his points because you disagree doesn't get anywhere...

As have I, now lets move on.

[Kawauso]

Because GW also has to pay for moulding equipment, sculptors, designers, writers, artists, printers, translators, legal team, larger staffing, warehousing, materials etc etc

Right, but they're still making a profit from the sellers who offer discount prices, otherwise they wouldn't be selling to them in the first place.

So...why the difference in mark-up between retailers who offer between 20-35% off and what GW charges/recommends as MRSP?

[Necron2.0]

Because GW also has to pay for moulding equipment, sculptors, designers, writers, artists, printers, translators, legal team, larger staffing, warehousing, materials etc etc

Those are mostly all one time costs that get amortized over the entire production run of a miniature. These would also end up blended into the whole sale cost of the products, meaning if online retailers can sell the mini at a "reduced" price and still stay in business, then by definition GW is already recouping these costs, as they start by selling the mini to the retailers at a profit.

[Lockark]

I find all this about trade embargo's silly. If someone is ordering thier GW product off the internet it is because they no not care or care for their LGS/LGW or even have a LGS to support.

GW makes no less money because these are just going to order their product from other sources still anyway.
=/


I am a huge advocate of supporting your LGS, but trying to enforce polices to FORCE people to is just the wrong way to go about it.

[wittdooley]

As have I, now lets move on.

Touche'. Apologies for my antagonism. I think I was being a douche there, simply to be douchey. My bad.

[whitestar333]

I think GW has made itself into a big corporate monster, with lots of overhead and administrative costs that other miniatures companies don't have.

Several years ago, GW basically scrapped it's old web site design so that they could rebuild their online store to try to take a slice from the online pie. However, I think this has ended up hurting them more than helping, and has caused them headaches with these other online retailers.

I think that GW would make nice much better by completely killing-off it's online store, closing down its retail stores, and just working directly with these online retailers and LGSs. That would reduce a lot of overhead costs and they wouldn't have to worry about all these ridiculous currency issues (no retail stores in Oz means you don't have to pay employees the higher minimum wage, rental fees, etc.). GW is sticking with its failed model of keeping their retail outlets when they should instead work with pre-existing stores. I know that GW has been responsible for running 3 game stores in eastern and central MA out of business, and then pulling their own stores out because they were poorly run. They are terribly at running retail outlets and should make nice with independent store owners who can run their businesses better by selling lots of products and running events more often.

This has worked extremely well for Privateer Press, as their online store is only for special items and bitz orders, while they work closely with LGSs and their Press Gangers to get people interested in their game. It also allows them to run a tight shop with little overhead.

[wittdooley]

Your post is just too good not to break down:


I think GW has made itself into a big corporate monster, with lots of overhead and administrative costs that other miniatures companies don't have.

Strange. I wonder if any of that has to do with the fact that they make far more money than (and this is an assumption) all the other miniatures companies combined coupled with the fact that they are a public company. Hmmm.



Several years ago, GW basically scrapped it's old web site design so that they could rebuild their online store to try to take a slice from the online pie. However, I think this has ended up hurting them more than helping, and has caused them headaches with these other online retailers.

Beyond your thoughts, do you have anything to back this up? Once a website is up, it isn't expensive to maintain.



I think that GW would make nice much better by completely killing-off it's online store, closing down its retail stores, and just working directly with these online retailers and LGSs. That would reduce a lot of overhead costs and they wouldn't have to worry about all these ridiculous currency issues (no retail stores in Oz means you don't have to pay employees the higher minimum wage, rental fees, etc.). GW is sticking with its failed model of keeping their retail outlets when they should instead work with pre-existing stores. I know that GW has been responsible for running 3 game stores in eastern and central MA out of business, and then pulling their own stores out because they were poorly run. They are terribly at running retail outlets and should make nice with independent store owners who can run their businesses better by selling lots of products and running events more often.

Sigh, I wonder if you realize how ridiculous some of this sounds. So they should just not sell anything directly to the consumer, eh? How does that make ANY sense? There are certianly overhead costs associated with running the retail. And stating that GW ran those other stores out of business is silly. The problem with many LGSs is that they're run like clubhouses and not businesses. GW stores only sell GW product. If the LGSs went out of business, it was because they weren't capitalizing on the VAST other markets that bring in profit for a game store, most notably CCGs. Also, what makes the GW stores 'poorly run?'


This has worked extremely well for Privateer Press, as their online store is only for special items and bitz orders, while they work closely with LGSs and their Press Gangers to get people interested in their game. It also allows them to run a tight shop with little overhead.

Again, comparing GW to Privateer is so silly because of the vast difference in company size, profitability, and company status (private vs public).

I agree that the marketing strategies employeed by each company are vastly different (and I often think GWs are very poor) but to say that they should shut down their online store is silly.

[Gotthammer]

I think that GW would make nice much better by completely killing-off it's online store, closing down its retail stores, and just working directly with these online retailers and LGSs. That would reduce a lot of overhead costs and they wouldn't have to worry about all these ridiculous currency issues (no retail stores in Oz means you don't have to pay employees the higher minimum wage, rental fees, etc.).

No GW's in Aus, and no online GW store would mean next to no games stores of any kind (three in greater Sydney, rather than ten, and none closer than an hour away), and almost zero local 'net retailers. The ones that do exist have spotty inventory and/or terrible interfaces that make it hard to tell what's in stock.

[Kawauso]

Those are mostly all one time costs that get amortized over the entire production run of a miniature. These would also end up blended into the whole sale cost of the products, meaning if online retailers can sell the mini at a "reduced" price and still stay in business, then by definition GW is already recouping these costs, as they start by selling the mini to the retailers at a profit.



Exactly.
They're already getting a profit out of the 'discount' stuff we buy from online retailers. So why can't they just lower their prices to be closer? 20-35% cheaper is a pretty wide margin.

But then, when has their pricing ever made sense?
The new Dark Eldar stuff unveiled today...well, first of all, for those of us in Canada everything is more than 3% more expensive than what everyone in the States is paying, ignoring the current exchange rate (you could claim import fees, but they have to import stuff to the States to begin with, also, do they not?). The price difference isn't so bad in some places (the Haemonculus is only about $1-2 more), but the Grotesques are $10 more expensive in Canada vs. the US when the dollars are almost at parity! $30 for one model that goes in units of 3-10 as an elite!

...Mind you that's probably going to be what I'll have to wind up paying for resin Zoanthropes, too. :( At least those won't be 'web store exclusives'. And they only go in broods of up to 3.

EDIT: You know, I just thought of this, also: being a web store exclusive, they can't claim anything like import fees being the reason behind the price disparity for the Grotesque. It costs $10 more just because. Awesome.

[Wildeybeast]

I think you interpreted their reply wrong Wildeybeast.

They said they would contact GW and try to persuade them to reconsider their policy. They want to explain the benefits GW gets from their service, extending GWs market base to places where GW does not have stores or bricks and mortar outlets. There was someone from Christmas Island or somewhere like that on this site who commented about only being able to order GW products online as they did not have a gaming/ hobby store of any kind near them, and it would cost too much to have a GW store in Australia ship things to them.

Wayland games also said they would comply with GWs final decision as they did not want to get into a legal battle, but they wanted their loyal customers, that they would continue to try to get GW to counter their controversial new policy through discussion, and they would get their lawyers to see if GW had any legal standing to enforce the new policy, or whether it was an illegal policy that would breach trading laws.

I do not order miniatures online much at all, except where they are very hard to get a hold of - such as when I built up my 3000 points Adeptus Arbites army (BOLS Minidex) using 2nd and 3rd edition Arbites miniatures from ebay, and other sources.

I personally think GW does not have the right to prohibit online sellers, and even bricks and mortar retail shops from selling to non European markets. If GW does not drop its prices to bring their product price inline with the new value of the Australian ans New Zealand dollar, then they are as bad as the Petrol companies who keep increasing prices when our dollar is at a low value, but do not drop their prices when the dollar changes to a higher value than previous when compared to the English Pound.

It does not cost them any more to pay their staff as their GM has stated. If you sell a miniature box set for a AU$50.00 and it costs you AU$30.00 to produce it, post it, pay for staff, and rental of the shop, development costs and all other factors added in, then when the value of the Australian dollars changes so that it now costs you only AU$24.00 because we need less dollars to equal an English Pound, then GW is still making a Huge profit. Why put the prices up?

No wonder the gaming community is in such an uproar about GW and their greedy dwarvish ways (short arms and long pockets).

Places like Wayland games picked up the slack for GW, and their stores internationally. How many people on assignment in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, etc would bother to order anything while over seas in remote areas. How many people who live in remote areas would order any GW products if it were not for Wayland games and their ability to provide a reasonable price for the model and postage when it would cost too much if dealing directly through the nearest GW store - that is if GW would even offer a delivery service to their location/country.

I am all for the little man providing competition to keep the big wigs honest, and stop companies from price fixing. The consumer has the right to a reasonably price and service, and yes sure the supplier has to make some profit, but when their profits grow astronomically out of proportion with what they are actually providing, then we need an alternative option to force the big stores to keep their prices at a reasonable level.

As to daboarders comment about charging international customers more for their product to come into line with GWs prices, I think GW should reduce their prices to come into line with Wayland Games prices. They would still make profit, and they would get a greater share of the market as customers would go back to GW shops to buy the miniatures.

*Sigh*.

Just a few points in response to the many elements of wrongness here, in no particular order.

1) GW is not price fixing. that involves more than one company, working together to rig their prices.
2) Wayland and other internet companies are not providing competition. providing competition would involve making their own models and selling them cheaper. selling GW's produts cheaper than GW is simply undercutting their business.
3) Have you ever worked in retail and done anything to do with price changes? Do you have any idea how much hassle and expense it would take to contiually alter prices inline with exchange rates, which change on a daily basis?
4) Pretty sure there is a good reason why GW doesn't have stores in Iraq, Afghanistan or christmas island. of course, is it perfetly reasonsable for you to expect a multinational company to not introdue a business policy because it will negatively impact on, what, a few hundred people in those areas?
5) Your idea of GW reducing its prices inline with those of wayland is a great idea, I'll give you that. One tiny flaw in your plan though. It's b******S. The shareholders will still demand the same level of profit, and Waylands prices are so low beause THEY HAVE NO OVERHEADS. So, there won't be any GW stores for you to go into, which will get rid of any opportunity to introduce new ustomers = RIP GW. Not to mention the many, many people that will put into unemployment so you can pay a bit less money for your little plastic men.

[Kawauso]

With regards to your point on lower prices = lower profit Wildeybeast, I don't think that would be the case. Lower prices would mean (to a point) more people buying more product. It's worked out quite well in the video game industry thanks to digital distribution services such as Steam; typically, the cheaper a game is priced on Steam, the more -profit- a given studio/publisher makes on a given title. This is why Steam so regularly has ridiculous sales happening - it brings in boatloads of cash. This is also why there's been a boom in game development for things like the App Store for iPhones; millions can be made selling products for 99 cents which would have, historically, cost a lot more. There's even a significant market in games that are free nowadays, and run entirely off of in-game purchases (which can vary quite wildly in pricing, but more often than not tend to be dirt cheap for individual purchases).

You're right about GW having overhead to worry about, whereas online retailers don't. But then, the price gap is quite high (20-35%, depending on the seller/item). So why wouldn't GW be able to lessen the gap by charging less for products and/or giving retailers less of a discount? There has to be some happy middle-ground, here.

[Mobynick]

So your point 3 would imply GW is just plain lazy???
It's not just GW but Australian retail in general see here ...
http://www.news.com.au/money/money-matters/australian-shoppers-ripped-off-by-retailer-mark-ups-choice/story-e6frfmd9-1226063926920?from=igoogle+gadget+compact+news_rss

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[lobster-overlord]

and Waylands prices are so low beause THEY HAVE NO OVERHEADS.

To think that online retailers have no overhead is complete crap. Many still have rent for space, electricity, employees to pay, water to flush the toilet in the lou/WC/crapper, etc. Stores like this just have a MUCH larger customer base than a local game store, so they greater potential for profit even with lower prices.

So to say that there is no overhead in online retail is just ignorance of how a store is actually run.

A brick&Mortar store generally has a local clientele, which an online may or may not have.

[eldargal]

Malestrom has one store and warehouse, Games Workshop has hundreds of stores and several warehouses, not to mention factories. Maelstrom employs a couple of dozen people (or less, I forget), Games Workshop employs thousands. Every business has overheads, but Games Workshop has far more than Wayland or Maelstrom.

[Necron2.0]

And again, Malestrom is a middle man between GW and the end customer, is it not? If so, then it is beyond reason to suggest Malestrom is somehow undermining GW's business because GW must already be making a profit selling to Malestrom in the first place. In any scenario anyone can possible imagine, Malestrom must be selling GW's products above what it cost them to buy from GW, or else they could not stay in business. Similarly, GW must be selling their products to Malestrom at a price above their manufacturing and overhead costs, or else GW could not stay in business. In the end, Malestrom is paying not only for their own overhead, but for GW's as well, because it's all factored into the cost, and that is apparent because everyone is profitable and still in business.

[eldargal]

I was just putting the overheads in perspective, not claiming that GW was being hurt by Maelstrom, Wayland etc. You are quite right in tha regard, GW sells the kits to them at a wholesale price on which they still make a profit, the independents then sell them on at a price that makes them a profit. The problem (from GWs perspective) is that they have passed on nearly the entire discount on to their customers. Not a big issue in the UK, but for international customers it literally halves the prices compared to their local GWs and LGS. I get that they want to keep a buffer against currency fluctuations, but 100% increas in price is just stupid.

[Deadlift]

I think that GW would make nice much better by completely killing-off it's online store, closing down its retail stores, and just working directly with these online retailers and LGSs.

I sure as hell hope not :eek:. For me GW is not just a place for purchases but somewhere to browse though some very interesting articles on the hobby in its entirety. From painting articles to gaming I personally really enjoy what the web team do on a day to day basis. The GW website to me isn't just a shop.

I know I can get similar articles from other sites such as Beasts of War with much less bias but the GW site is still my 1st port of call when a new model is due for release.

As for the high street stores, again they have been somewhere for me to meet like minded people in a friendly environment. I think for many people (not just kids) its also the best way to have an introduction to our hobby though the intro games. I know there are many other independent stores that may do the same but in my area there are not. When I got into the hobby the only way (besides friends) to get an intro game in was to go to the local GW store.

Maybe I am biased because I became very good friends with the then manager. (who has since left and came to work for me) So besides the screaming hordes of kids on a Saturday morning I can honestly say I enjoy my local GW store very much. Actually even the kids can be fun :D

[eldargal]

The thing is the GW stores are its greatest marketing asset, while they increase overheads they give GW the kind of presence in the UK that no other wargames company will ever have. Its not quite at that same level in other countries I know, but it is a huge part of GWs business strategy and it does work for them.

[daboarder]

I was just putting the overheads in perspective, not claiming that GW was being hurt by Maelstrom, Wayland etc. You are quite right in tha regard, GW sells the kits to them at a wholesale price on which they still make a profit, the independents then sell them on at a price that makes them a profit. The problem (from GWs perspective) is that they have passed on nearly the entire discount on to their customers. Not a big issue in the UK, but for international customers it literally halves the prices compared to their local GWs and LGS. I get that they want to keep a buffer against currency fluctuations, but 100% increas in price is just stupid.

The price discrepancy however is of GW's own making, the way they have worded their responses makes it appear that they are blaming the price discrepancy on action taken by the retailers not their own ridiculous pricing practices.

[Necron2.0]

I was just putting the overheads in perspective, not claiming that GW was being hurt by Maelstrom, Wayland etc.

Ah. Ok, sorry. M'bad.

[Wildeybeast]

So your point 3 would imply GW is just plain lazy???
It's not just GW but Australian retail in general see here ...
http://www.news.com.au/money/money-matters/australian-shoppers-ripped-off-by-retailer-mark-ups-choice/story-e6frfmd9-1226063926920?from=igoogle+gadget+compact+news_rss

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

No not lazy. The actual setting of prices can be done by a computer. However, that would require all tills to be directly linked to some kind of GW supercomputer, which doesn't exist. That then has to be fed to staff every single day, otherwise every time someone comes into a store and says 'how much is that' the staff then go 'i have no idea, it changed overnight'. Also, at least in the UK, the price advertised on the product/shelf has to be correct, otherwise you get in trouble with trading standards. I imagine that other countries have similar rules. So someone would have to manually go round changing prices every single day. And imagine this scenario. You have saved up your pocket money every week for a month to buy a box of shiny new blood dragon finecast knights, only to walk into a store and find out that it has gone up by ten pounds/dollars/yen because there was an earthquake in peru or a miners strike in zambia. That's going to go down really well isn't it?

[Kawauso]

I don't think anyone is suggesting by-the-minute exchange rate accurate pricing, Wildeybeast.

I think people are just expressing disappointment at being, quite frankly, shafted when their local currency is doing well by corporations who are using prices based on exchange rate data from years (sometimes decades) ago.

I.E. The Canadian dollar has been close to parity with the American dollar for quite some time (a couple of years now, I think), but our prices compared to American prices are still what they were about 10+ years ago.

[daboarder]

Pretty much yeah,

Its not just GW that does this to us though, everything is OZ is marked up by ridiculous amounts. It's not small business however its the large importers. What is unique to GW and the snow sports market however is the embargo. Snow sports get away with it because what they don't allow retailers to ship here is the left over stock, so basically whatever isn't cost effective for them to ship here themselves. GW however is shipping here everything that it is cheaper to buy from their own company internationally.

[Maelstorm]

It's not rocket science - up to the second pricing is easily done today - stop at any new grocery store with LCD price lables on the shelf (not on each individual box). The LCD price labels are tied to a desktop computer (not a supercomputer) behind the counter, it in turn is tied to corporate for weekly/daily/hourly updates. The corporate "supercomputer" would be a laptop at the corporate office. Anytime a price change occurs the update is sent straight to the price display in every store at the same time.

If a local grocery store can do it, a multi-national company should be able to pull it's head out of the sand long enough to accomplish the same thing.

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/price.jpg

[Deadlift]

Anyone else notice in today's news on GWs website that there's lots of pictures of overly happy Australian customers with their new releases from the weekend. Would that be deliberate ? Of course not.

[wittdooley]

It's not rocket science - up to the second pricing is easily done today - stop at any new grocery store with LCD price lables on the shelf (not on each individual box). The LCD price labels are tied to a desktop computer (not a supercomputer) behind the counter, it in turn is tied to corporate for weekly/daily/hourly updates. The corporate "supercomputer" would be a laptop at the corporate office. Anytime a price change occurs the update is sent straight to the price display in every store at the same time.

If a local grocery store can do it, a multi-national company should be able to pull it's head out of the sand long enough to accomplish the same thing.

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/price.jpg

Is this really done?!? Man, you Michiganders must be a lot more advanced than us Ohioans. I blame Tressel and Pryor....

[Wildeybeast]

It's not rocket science - up to the second pricing is easily done today - stop at any new grocery store with LCD price lables on the shelf (not on each individual box). The LCD price labels are tied to a desktop computer (not a supercomputer) behind the counter, it in turn is tied to corporate for weekly/daily/hourly updates. The corporate "supercomputer" would be a laptop at the corporate office. Anytime a price change occurs the update is sent straight to the price display in every store at the same time.

If a local grocery store can do it, a multi-national company should be able to pull it's head out of the sand long enough to accomplish the same thing.

http://i832.photobucket.com/albums/zz246/bbrine01/price.jpg

1) That may work ok for food, where people expect regular changes and budget accordingly. Most people would get pretty hacked off having no idea how much a box of space marines would cost everytime they walked into a store.
2) Exchange rate changes can be good as well as bad. Imagine the amount of people on here moaning that the price of skaven jezzails has doubled because there was an earthquake in chile or shock election result in Japan.
3) Installing these machines in every GW store worldwide will be expensive. Guess who will end up footing the bill for that.
4) It will shaft independent stockists. These guys mostly run fairly tight profit margins and rely on knowing how much stock is going to cost them one month to the next. They simply don't have spare cash to swallow a sudden unexpected price increase.
5) 'Sorry guys, you can't buy anything today, Ken spilt his coffee on the computer in the office so we have no idea how much our stuff actually costs'. Or 'The stupid fat kid just poked his jammy donut fingers into the LCD and broke it, so you can't buy any Rohirrim today. Here, have some Moria Goblins instead.'
6) I have never seen these in a single store in the UK, nor ever heard of them in one. Why? Because they are impractical and expensive for large retailers and small retailers don't need them.

I'm sorry, but people are just going to have to accept that fixed prices are the most cost effective, practical and sensible way to run a business like GW.

[Gotthammer]

GW head office emails the stores any price changes. Staff change prices before store opens. It's how retail works - the store I manage will get anywhere from 10 - 200 price changes a day (not too long ago thousands of prices changed overnight), which would be changed not only in our store but in the hundreds of branches around the country.

And i seriously doubt anyone is advocating a daily price change structure. Some adjustment every year or two years based on trending exchange rates would be reasonable. The prices are currently using ten year old rates.



5) 'Sorry guys, you can't buy anything today, Ken spilt his coffee on the cash register so we have no way to process transactions'. Or 'The stupid fat kid just poked his jammy donut fingers into the EFTPOS machine and broke it, so you can't buy anything with a card. Got cash?'


6) I have never seen these in a single store in the UK, nor ever heard of them in one. Why? Because they are impractical and expensive for large retailers and small retailers don't need them.

Having worked in numerous large retailers they'd be a high initial outlay and require maintainence, but when compared to the manpower required to print, cut and replace paper tickets it'd be a long term saving. A medium sized supermarket can be replacing 100 odd tickets daily due to wear and tear, and has to replace several hundred weekly due to changing sales. This usually involves two or three people spending five or six hours each as their sole job. If that could be replaced by a single upload from head office (or more likely a local source) it'd make up for the initial outlay in short order.
And if you want to comment about the system going down, it can happen to the computerised ETF system, the computerised registers, power outages and much, much more preventing anyone from buying anything, let alone seeing the prices.

[Wildeybeast]

I have also worked in retail, I know how price changes work and how time consuming they can be. However GW is not a supermarket. They don't have someone whose job consists entirely of changing prices everyday, so there would be little to no saving for them to make.
My point about systems going down was not that this system would be any more vulnerable to that than any other electronic system, merely that you are unecessarily adding in something extra that could go wrong, when there is nothing wrong with the system at the moment.

If you want to argue for a yearly review of prices based on economic conditions over that previous year and forecast ones for the next, then that is reasonable. However, I don't recall seeing anyone do that on here, just people moaning that they are getting ripped off because the AUS$ happens to be quite good value at the moment.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

just people moaning that they are getting ripped off because the AUS$ happens to be quite good value at the moment.

'For the moment'. It's been pretty damn good for some time - especially the last three years. You can't tell me that prices shouldn't go down. If the US dollar has never been that much higher than the AU$, and people pay much less there, then something is distinctly wrong.

[Hive Mind]

This entire thread, and several others on here recently, is/are one massive White Whine.

Don't like the prices, don't pay them. I could understand it if it was something essential like a loaf of bread or a carton of milk being subjected to massive price hikes but moaning about how expensive your toy soldiers are? GTFO.

Anyway, I'm off to email Ferrari to complain that their products are too expensive.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

This entire thread, and several others on here recently, is/are one massive White Whine.

On both sides, perhaps ;)


Don't like the prices, don't pay them. I could understand it if it was something essential like a loaf of bread or a carton of milk being subjected to massive price hikes but moaning about how expensive your toy soldiers are? GTFO.

Again, you're not understanding, or ignoring, the issue of price discrepancies between hemispheres. Yes, they are expensive, but to see that people in another country are paying comparatively much less makes you wonder how reasonable GW are being. But yes, if one does not like the price, one should not purchase it. I agree with that.

By the way, what does GTFO mean? It sounds like a fabulous debating tool, and would like to adopt the acronym once I discover what it stands for. Good work, sir!


Anyway, I'm off to email Ferrari to complain that their products are too expensive.

A really flawed analogy.

[Hive Mind]

Again, you're not understanding, or ignoring, the issue of price discrepancies between hemispheres. Yes, they are expensive, but to see that people in another country are paying comparatively much less makes you wonder how reasonable GW are being. But yes, if one does not like the price, one should not purchase it. I agree with that.


I'm ignoring it because it doesn't over-ride my main point that if you can't afford a luxury item (which is what GW peddles) then simply don't buy them. This thread along with the others on the same subject seem to take as their starting point that there's some sort of requirement of fairness involved.



By the way, what does GTFO mean? It sounds like a fabulous debating tool, and would like to adopt the acronym once I discover what it stands for. Good work, sir!


Get The [Expletive Deleted] Out. It was not intended as a debating tool, more as an exclamation as to exactly how ridiculous it to complain that plastic soldiers, that no-one is forcing you to buy, are a bit pricey.



A really flawed analogy.

Not really. Both Ferraris and GW products are totally non-essential, luxury items. They (Ferraris, that is) also vary in price from territory to territory, seemingly arbitrarily.

[daboarder]

The stupidity of some of these "OMG YOU WANNA CHANGE PRICES BY THE MINUTE THATS IMPOSSIBIBLE!!11!" is unbelievable. Are you guys living under rocks? its the 21st century and earth is a global civilization people get with the times.

It has never been suggested that the price be updated "dailly" hell most of us wouldn't even push for yearly despite GW insisting that their rises are "readjustments" all we want is the exchange rate that has been standard for the last few years.

Edit: stuff removed after anger passed.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

I'm ignoring it because it doesn't over-ride my main point that if you can't afford a luxury item (which is what GW peddles) then simply don't buy them. This thread along with the others on the same subject seem to take as their starting point that there's some sort of requirement of fairness involved.

Convenient for a Norther Hemisphere gamer to say that. So do you honestly expect us, in Australia, to agree with the prices? I honestly think it's a bit rich for some of you to post, quite condescendingly I might add, that we shouldn't be expressing our frustration. Some of us, love the settings. I have been gaming since 1988, and it's not so simple that we can just drop it because the Australians are being gouged. I'm sorry to hear you are frustrated by the complaints, but honestly don't tell us what we can't and can say on a forum - leave that to a moderator/admin. It's a public place, with threads about the latest pricing extravaganza. I think all of us are allowed to vent our concerns and work towards a resolution.




Get The [Expletive Deleted] Out. It was not intended as a debating tool, more as an exclamation as to exactly how ridiculous it to complain that plastic soldiers, that no-one is forcing you to buy, are a bit pricey.

You do come across a rather frustrated, but no need to use GTFO. And yes, I was being facetious above; I know what it means. Just thought it was unnecessary.


Not really. Both Ferraris and GW products are totally non-essential, luxury items. They (Ferraris, that is) also vary in price from territory to territory, seemingly arbitrarily.

1. Most people don't collect cars. Gamers collect models.

2. Car collections don't require or recommend a Ferrari. Army book X recommends troop choices

3. A Ferrari, in comparison to other cars, is a luxury item. If you need something less expensive, then buy another model of car. You cannot field other company's models in GW tournaments, in stores, or with most gamers

4. Generally, Ferraris cost more the further the company has to ship them. Shipping GW products to the Southern Hemisphere is not that expensive (i.e. Maelstrom, Wayland)

Thanks for your advice, Hive Mind, but I'm happy with how I feel about GW. And will express it without concern. You call some of us whiners, but I've read numerous posts on facebook response pages where the opinion is that some people here at BoLS are fanboys upset at the complaints. You don't strike me as a fanboy, however.

[Hive Mind]

Convenient for a Norther Hemisphere gamer to say that. So do you honestly expect us, in Australia, to agree with the prices? I honestly think it's a bit rich for some of you to post, quite condescendingly I might add, that we shouldn't be expressing our frustration. Some of us, love the settings. I have been gaming since 1988, and it's not so simple that we can just drop it because the Australians are being gouged. I'm sorry to hear you are frustrated by the complaints, but honestly don't tell us what we can't and can say on a forum - leave that to a moderator/admin. It's a public place, with threads about the latest pricing extravaganza. I think all of us are allowed to vent our concerns and work towards a resolution.
[/quote]

I'm not telling you what you can and can't post, merely positing the idea that frankly all this reeks of entitlement.

FWIW, it's not all rosy in the Northern Hemisphere either. Unfortunately I live in the UK currently so the prices, while they aren't low by any means, aren't that much of an issue. However, I'm going to Ontario for the summer in a little under a fortnight and this time next year I'll be going there permanently. The prices in Canada suffer from many of the same factors that antipodean prices suffer from, though maybe not to the same extent. You can bet your life that when I have to pay over the odds compared to an American or British customer I won't be *****ing about how unfair it is.




1. Most people don't collect cars. Gamers collect models.

2. Car collections don't require or recommend a Ferrari. Army book X recommends troop choices

3. A Ferrari, in comparison to other cars, is a luxury item. If you need something less expensive, then buy another model of car. You cannot field other company's models in GW tournaments, in stores, or with most gamers

4. Generally, Ferraris cost more the further the company has to ship them. Shipping GW products to the Southern Hemisphere is not that expensive (i.e. Maelstrom, Wayland)


All utterly irrelevant to my point. They're both luxury items. Partaking in tournaments and wargaming in general are not essential things. They might well be things you like to do, much like I'd like to drive an Enzo, but they are not essential. There is no fundamental right of access to reasonably priced GW products.

Of course if you pick on the specifics then a Ferrari is to GW products as a raven is to a writing desk, but that is missing the point.



Thanks for your advice, Hive Mind, but I'm happy with how I feel about GW. And will express it without concern. You call some of us whiners, but I've read numerous posts on facebook response pages where the opinion is that some people here at BoLS are fanboys upset at the complaints. You don't strike me as a fanboy, however.

I may very well be a fanboy to be honest. I don't strive to be but I'm firmly in favour of a company having the freedom to contract and to conduct themselves as they see fit, subject to applicable laws. I don't like paying £30 for a Trygon (£30 can feed me and the missus for a fortnight) but no-one's holding a (bolt)gun to my head and making me buy them.

Again, what irks me is the overwhelming sense of entitlement I get from threads like this. That isn't directed at you as an ad hominen by the way, short of this back-and-forth I have no knowledge of you whatsoever and I'm sure you're a spiffing gent/lady/unicorn.

I'm also in favour of the U.S apparoach to freedom of expression and so I'm not trying to stop you posting your thoughts. By the same token however, I can comment on your thoughts.

Personally I think that posting complaints is the very definition of urinating in the breeze; GW won't care. Stop buying their stuff, that's the only way you'll get them to pay attention. Stop buying their stuff and let them know that they've gone too far. They can only charge what people will pay after all.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

Again, what irks me is the overwhelming sense of entitlement I get from threads like this. That isn't directed at you as an ad hominen by the way, short of this back-and-forth I have no knowledge of you whatsoever and I'm sure you're a spiffing gent/lady/unicorn.

No one is saying they are entitled, again, we're just asking for reasonable pricing compared to the rest of the world. Really, it just boils down to that.


I'm also in favour of the U.S apparoach to freedom of expression and so I'm not trying to stop you posting your thoughts. By the same token however, I can comment on your thoughts.

I never said you can't comment on my thoughts. But I do notice ad hominem attacks (not from you), or outright hostility (on both sides). But using terms such as 'whining' or 'STFO' is counter productive. You sound like an intelligent poster, but come on, avoid labeling us.


Personally I think that posting complaints is the very definition of urinating in the breeze; GW won't care. Stop buying their stuff, that's the only way you'll get them to pay attention. Stop buying their stuff and let them know that they've gone too far. They can only charge what people will pay after all.

I agree to this, wholeheartedly. In addition, there's been a meeting with Australian GW heads and a fan. It turned out surprisingly well, and some of the comments are interesting. I'd post what was said, but I'll get the guy's permission first. Whilst it may come to nothing, the response from the fans may result in something - simply, loss of sales.

Take it easy :)

[daboarder]

that meeting was a load, he got fed corporate BS that is untrue according to their own annual business reports.

[Gir]

Not really. Both Ferraris and GW products are totally non-essential, luxury items. They (Ferraris, that is) also vary in price from territory to territory, seemingly arbitrarily.

If the Australian 33% luxury car tax applied to GW products, then you would have an argument here.

[Hive Mind]

If the Australian 33% luxury car tax applied to GW products, then you would have an argument here.

If GW made cars, maybe you would.

[Duke]

This has all be talked to death... Closed.

Duke