Misconceptions about GKs vs DE

[DarkLink]

Having played several games against DE so far (with exactly the same result in all of the games), all I can say is that a good GK list has little to fear from most DE armies, with the sole possible exception of Webway portal lists. This applies to any DE list with lots of Raiders, Ravagers and Venoms.

I've heard a lot of talk across various 40k forums about how DE have so many Dark Lances that the Gks won't last long, and any Paladins will be dead immediately. In reality, in each game the DE came on the board, bounced off the Shrouding, and as soon as the Gks got to shoot the game was effectively over. Yes, a good DE list has lots of AP2, and some potent close combat that can threaten GK units. However, barring Webway Portals (which I haven't faced yet), those AP 2 weapons will have one turn to shoot, will be hitting units with 3+ cover, and those DE close combat units will never make it into close combat. A good GK list has so many psycannon shots and a couple psyrifle dreads, meaning half the DE vehicles will be dead in one turn, with the other half soon to follow. The exposed infantry will get whittled away before they can get close enough to really threaten any GK units. In each game I literally just marched forward mowing down everything that got close to me until my opponent conceded turn 5 with almost nothing left of his army.

So the question is twofold. One, how could a skimmer-heavy DE force face off against GKs, and two how would one make a competitive DE list that can face GKs effectively?

Oh, and about Paladins? I don't remember losing any Terminators to Dark Lance fire. They were too busy trying to kill my Psyrifle Dreads. Any Terminators I lost were either in CC from what little made it through, or from weight of fire. I wouldn't hesitate to take Paladins against DE, so long as I had a Librarian in the list.

[plawolf]

Firstly, shrouding only gives you a one better cover save than what you would have had anyways, so it can be a little misleading to mention a 3+ cover save and marching up the board in the same breath, as that might lead to some people who haven't read the rule to think shrouding gives a 3+ cover save, which it doesn't.

If you were just matching across open ground, shrouding only gives you a 6+ cover save. If you are termies, you are better off using your 5+ inv.

Secondly, the fact that you have won a few games means very little. It could easily be that your opponent has played and/or rolled poorly.

A couple of psyrifle dreads are not really all that hard to kill. If I had played DE, I would have priorities killing them off, and after they are gone, you are in a bad position since nothing else in your army can shoot more than 24", nor could many GK units move fast enough to hope to catch raiders, and Interceptors are not all that common in competitive GK lists any ways, so for most competitive GK lists, they would be next of nothing that could outrange raiders or hope to catch them once the dreads are gone.

With that in mind, a good DE player could have traded a couple raiders or similar fast AT platform for your dreads, and then if they could stay outside of 24", they could shoot at you with almost impunity.

Once DE plays start to pick up on that and start prioritizing against your dreads as they should, you might easily find the going not so easy, since your entire strategy hinges on how long your dreads can stay alive and how many transports they can down. If you loose those dreads early, especially if before they can take out much, it will be a very hard to come back from that position.

Your opponent could spend most of the game whittling your forces down, and then focus his entire army to attack your weakest link when he chooses, and there will be precious little you as a GK play can do to counter it.

[helvexis]

I agree dark eldar exist to kill marines it is what they are brilliant at a good DE player would target the dreads with the lot of lance weapons they get then just stay out of range and whittling your low numbers down to even lower numbers and using the last couple of turns to rush forward and kill what's left the whole idea of DE is to not be where your opponent can shoot and target with overwhelming force that which can shoot you Not always as easy to do though lol

And as to shrouding I'm quite happy letting your unit hide in a piece of terrain as I can stay away from it so unless it's on an objective I can afford to go around and/or wait till you leave. There is no way I would be heading towards your lines without some advantage ... Be that variable ap flamers or just a horde of bodies to poor through the grinder and let attrition do it's work

And a webway list could be a bit scary but it's still units coming on piecemeal ...

[Necron_Lord]

What is the terrain situation at your club? I take it that there is no terrain that can hide DE vehicles to minimize your
shooting. That might be part of the reason you're pwning the DE lists you've faced. If you can have all your dreads shoot stuff every turn every game, you're doing it wrong. Have they tried suicide wyches to lock the dreads so everything can concentrate on the others while staying 24+" away with NS?

[Denied]

I think the misconception the Dark Eldar players are having is that when shooting at a Grey Knight vehicles they need to wreck or explode the vehicle to do any damage to it. This means a lot more shooting at a single target then before.

Grey Knight have Fortitude on every single one of their vehicle this means that sure you may be shaking and stunning like a champ but all I need to do is make an LD 10 test and I ignore it. Add in the fact that Rhinos have the repair function if they get immobilized means the only way to take out a GKSS hunkered in a Rhino blasting up your dudes is to wreck or exploded it.

Sure you could cleave off a weapon but under most GK builds the real weapons are the Psycannons on the dudes in the heavily protected vehicle shooting at you from the inside their rolling fortresses.

Additionally the Psyfile Dreads also have Fortitude, so unless you either remove both weapons or wreck or destroy it its going to sit back probably in cover blasting your pretty little open top transports out of the sky.

I mean lets say you shoot at a GKSS in its pretty little Rhino, if they are being played well they will be using any cover to their advantage and have a Librarian rolling behind casting shrouding so they get their 3+ cover saves. Meaning 1/3 of your penetrating hits will get through, then out of those that get through you have a 50% chance of actually damaging the vehicle in any significant way (assuming they don't roll like a boss to repair those immobilized results), 1/3 a chance of actually popping those turtles out of their shells. If you don't pop them out of the shell they will probably still sit there shooting you up.

So assuming you actually pop them out of their transports, which you have roughly an 11% chance of doing with your penetrating hits, then there is still almost an entire GKSS still shooting at your dudes.

This is the major advantage that Grey Knights have over other Marine chapters and if you play to this advantage you have a heavily armored mid ranged shooting army that can still protect itself in CC.


I am not saying GK's are invincible because against more long range shooting armies with better armor it can get vicious, but Dark Eldar are too glass cannon imo.

[Anggul]

I find it odd that anyone would suggest otherwise. Grey Knights have so many psycannon and storm bolter shots I have no idea how anyone would think that Dark Eldar would give them a particularly hard time.

[DarkLink]

Just for reference, I'll post his and my lists. This is from memory, so I might have forgotten a unit of his. Some of the details changed game to game, but this is the basic layout:

DE
Vect
Haemoculus
Wyches, Raider
3 Trueborn in venoms
2 wracks, raiders
3 Ravagers

GK
Librarian
Coteaz
10 Terminators, 2 Psycannons, Psybolts, BBanner
2x 10 GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Hammer, Rhino
3x 5 Acolytes, 2 Melta, Razorback
3 Psyrifle Dreads


Firstly, shrouding only gives you a one better cover save than what you would have had anyways, so it can be a little misleading to mention a 3+ cover save and marching up the board in the same breath, as that might lead to some people who haven't read the rule to think shrouding gives a 3+ cover save, which it doesn't.

I've never had trouble getting cover for my guys. That's what Rhinos are for, even if you don't have lots of terrain. And if you're playing with 25% terrain then there should be enough in the center of the board that you can get cover from most angles if you play smart.



If you were just matching across open ground, shrouding only gives you a 6+ cover save. If you are termies, you are better off using your 5+ inv.

As a matter of fact, you're actually required to take your best available save, so 5+ it is for Terminators.



Secondly, the fact that you have won a few games means very little. It could easily be that your opponent has played and/or rolled poorly.

Exactly. Hence this thread. My opponent in the games is a pretty good player (not amazing or anything, but he goes to a fair number of tournaments in the area and does reasonably well, so he's not incompetent at the least). And the only real bad luck he has with DE is usually failing his first shadow field save in every game:rolleyes:.



A couple of psyrifle dreads are not really all that hard to kill. If I had played DE, I would have priorities killing them off, and after they are gone, you are in a bad position since nothing else in your army can shoot more than 24", nor could many GK units move fast enough to hope to catch raiders, and Interceptors are not all that common in competitive GK lists any ways, so for most competitive GK lists, they would be next of nothing that could outrange raiders or hope to catch them once the dreads are gone.

With that in mind, a good DE player could have traded a couple raiders or similar fast AT platform for your dreads, and then if they could stay outside of 24", they could shoot at you with almost impunity.

Once DE plays start to pick up on that and start prioritizing against your dreads as they should, you might easily find the going not so easy, since your entire strategy hinges on how long your dreads can stay alive and how many transports they can down. If you loose those dreads early, especially if before they can take out much, it will be a very hard to come back from that position.

There are two things I think you're missing here.
1. If he wants to get close enough to shoot my Dreads, he's in psycannon and storm bolter range. The Dreads are near the back of my deployment zone, my GKs are marching forward into the center of the field, and his guns are only 36" range max. He is in range, and the board is too small for him to outrun my 30" threat range on my psycannons.

2. Again, my GKs are moving forward to the midfield. One turn of movement with Rhinos, and maybe Running the terminators turn one, and I'm in the center of the board. Psycannons and storm bolters have a 30" threat radius. Do the geometry. There is nowhere for him to run and hide to, excluding LOS blocking terrain. I don't need to catch and assault him, I can just shoot him to death.



Your opponent could spend most of the game whittling your forces down, and then focus his entire army to attack your weakest link when he chooses, and there will be precious little you as a GK play can do to counter it.

My point is, my opponent didn't have the game to whittle down my forces. Half his army was dead by turn 3. I was only a few min trueborn units away from wiping him turn 5. It was literally like shooting fish in a barrel. All my units always had range to something (see my point above), and even if I lost a few guys here my opponent lost far more. He moved on from reserves and killed a few of my guys, or get first turn and kill a few, then I would blow away a quarter of his army. His firepower reduced, he would inflict fewer casualties than before, and I would blow away another quarter of his army. Here and there he managed to kill a razorback or psyrifle dread, but he simply could not kill things fast enough when literally every single unit in my army (except my two Rhinos) can reliably kill one of his vehicles in one round of shooting. After all his vehicles are gone, except maybe a venom or two I choose to ignore, his now stranded units get shot to pieces.


What is the terrain situation at your club? I take it that there is no terrain that can hide DE vehicles to minimize your shooting. That might be part of the reason you're pwning the DE lists you've faced. If you can have all your dreads shoot stuff every turn every game, you're doing it wrong.

We have plenty of terrain, about 25% of the board and a mix of buildings, forests and hills. Some of it can block LOS to a DE vehicle, some just grants cover. And remember, if I position my army well then if he wants to shoot at me he'll have to expose himself to my fire. Even if most of his vehicles are hidden, there's always something for me to shoot at.



Have they tried suicide wyches to lock the dreads so everything can concentrate on the others while staying 24+" away with NS?

They never even got close to the Dreads. I shot down all his vehicles before they made it across the midline of the board. In one game Vect managed to get close enough to kill all my Terminators (after which I stormbolted him to death), but his wracks and wyches have either gotten shot to pieces before they could get close enough, or have been so whittled down that I didn't bother to finish them off until late game so they couldn't claim an objective.

[DaveLL]

One of your opponent's main problems is that he's blowing a lot of points on Vect in what looks like a fairly small point value army.
For the price of Vect, he could be getting two squads of wracks in raiders.

Also, it seems like you're taking for granted that you get cover saves with your dreads - they are vehicles, remember, so they don't get cover just by standing in a piece of terrain - and he doesn't get them with his raiders...

[DarkLink]

Yeah, he should probably just have a cheap Archon. This is 2000pts, though, so it's not a small game. If his army list doesn't add up to 2000, it's because I forgot something he had. In fact, now that I think about it I believe he had 5 Venoms total, so probably 2 small Warrior squads.

Edit:

And I know how cover saves work:p. It's easy to get cover when you have 5 Rhinos. Plus, by turn 3 there isn't much left that can hurt the Dreads anymore, so I didn't really need to worry about cover on them. If he shoots the dreads, those are GKs with psycannons that he isn't shooting, and they're more important anyways. One of the greatest thing about the Dreads is the amount of fire they draw (and can shrug off thanks to Fortitude).

[w7west]

I dont know how to really put this so here goes:

Nightshield

That is all, perhaps some new de generals will learn something from this post.

[BrokenWing]

Nightshields, flicker fields...playing better...not using so many venoms...all sorts of things come to mind.


Seriously, 3 trueborn units in venoms? He could buy alot for those points.

[Quaade]

Tell your friends to forget the internet and have them make lists of what they think would be good. Chances are they will do better with their own lists than with anyone elses.

I personally always have a unit or 2 warriors with lance and blaster for backfield claiming as well as assisting shooting. According to tah interwebs, they are not worth taking, according to me, they are the shizzle because they have always given me wins, either because the opponent have to do something about them, or because they shot the snot out of something.

People are always on and on about raiders, guess what, you don't kill a warrior squad with your rhinobunkered psycannons as easily as you do one raider or ravager.

[BrokenWing]

Point of inquiry. Your "backfield" warriors...are they full 20 warrior squads?

[newtoncain]

I dont know how to really put this so here goes:

Nightshield

That is all, perhaps some new de generals will learn something from this post.

2nd that:eek:

[DarkLink]

Ironically enough, he is one of those voices on the internet;). He is a fairly experienced player, has good lists and plays them pretty smart. Fun is the reason why he takes Vect, and the rest of his army is pretty solid as a take-all-comers list. Gks just happen to be a horrible matchup for that type of list.


Point of inquiry. Your "backfield" warriors...are they full 20 warrior squads?

I honestly don't remember, but I know they weren't full 20-man squads. All I remember is that he had 5 venoms one way or another, and that he had some sniper trueborn squads in the backfield. I don't quite know the DE codex well enough, but my best guess was that he had 2 5 man warrior squads with blasters in the venoms while the trueborn shot darklances in the backfield.


I dont know how to really put this so here goes:

Nightshield

That is all, perhaps some new de generals will learn something from this post.

I think this might be the best advice for skimmer-based DE armies against Gks. The problem is, we were playing with our take-all-comers lists here, and typically nightshields aren't a great upgrade. So the question is, are the extra points worth it against just GKs.


Anyone have any experience with Webway Portals? Being able to pop out of the center of the board deals with some of the issues that DE have, but I'm not familiar enough with DE to know what a good WWP list would look like.

[Vindur]

So far played 3 games vs Grey Knights with my DE against 3 different players. 2 board wipes to me and a major victory to the GK in the other due to over eager charges on my part.

Personally swear by night shields and give all my vehicles a set.

I'll admit they are a tough nut to crack but they are by no means unstoppable

[DarkLink]

What's the general list you took, and what sort of GK lists did you face?

[thecactusman17]

typically nightshields aren't a great upgrade.

Every time I hear this from somebody who isn't playing Tau or artillery Guard, I question the playing quality of both the person making the statement and their opponent.

Nightshields: Impossible to shoot with Melta, Bolters, rapid fire weapons, etc.

Flickerfields: Work against 1/3 of successful hits, only better than flat-out saves against Hydra tanks, Hellhounds and Collosus Siege Mortars. AND ONLY HYDRAS, HELLHOUNDS AND COLLOSUS SIEGE MORTARS.

Guess which I would rather take given the points?

[Quaade]

Point of inquiry. Your "backfield" warriors...are they full 20 warrior squads?

Nope, I run them as 10 man units, a 20 man unit is as likely to run away after taking 5 casualties as the 10 man group.
It's also more targets for the opponent to kill. Focus firepower on a 20 man unit, if they run away, you lose everything.
2*10: only one of them is likely to be wiped out/run away leaving the other capable of shooting back.

10 man you can also ferry them around in spare raiders if you need it for some reason. A trick which has won me the game once or twice.


Ironically enough, he is one of those voices on the internet. He is a fairly experienced player, has good lists and plays them pretty smart. Fun is the reason why he takes Vect, and the rest of his army is pretty solid as a take-all-comers list. Gks just happen to be a horrible matchup for that type of list.

I will sound pretty arrogant now, just a warning, but just because you're a voice on the internet it doesn't mean you're worth listening to or even know what you're talking about outside your own narrow slice of interest.
Case in point. In my local gamerculture, a lot of experienced players came out of the woodworks and started talking about DE when the new book came out. Pretty much parroting what everyone else was saying "RAVAGERS RAVAGERS RAVAGERS!!!! nothing else" I told them to try out a razorwing because they were awesome. I was pretty much laughed at, then they tried it and now it's "Razorwing, never leave home without it."
My point? "Just because I'm not you doesn't mean that what I say is less valid than what you're saying."

Tell your "resident expert" to think outside his little box and try something different, spamming 2-3 units is a onetrick pony that will leave your vulnerable once the trick is figured out.

I myself play what I think is an allcomer list with the models currently available to me, I seldom change anything in it other than how I play it because it's set up in a way so it can adjust to several different scenarios and styles.

My usual 1750 list is
Archon + usual stuff + PGL
5 incubi (Master) + raider NS/FS
Hemo + WWP + flesh gauntlet, liq.
9 wracks, 1 liq. (Acothyst + flesh gauntlet)+ raider NS/FS
2*10 warriors blaster+lance
10 warriors, shredder, splintercannon
10 Wyches (hekatrix, agoniser) 2*nets + raider
7 Hellions (heliarch, ago)
2*ravagers, lances NS/FS

Once I get my grubby mits on a razorwing model, some changes will be made to accomodate it.

It's full of models and combinations that according to the internet is no good, a waste of points and while I don't play nearly as many games as I'd like to, in the 6 I've had time to play with it since the codex was released, it's undefeated.
My opponents so far has been Tyranids, Space Wolves, Eldar, Mech Orks, Chaos SM and GK.

[crazy_irish]

Ridicules with how many things i agree with you Quaade XD

There are lot of voices an the web (especially after the release) and they where so full of crap. How can you make a podcast, to help other guys, when you do not even get the rules right :mad:

anyway. I only had one game against GK and i made a huge mistake. I reserved a good bit of stuff, as i knew he would be inside my deployment zone turn one with the gost guy and 2 jump-teleporting Nemesis DK. He killed what i had left foolishly on the board in 2 rounds and to make matters worse half of my reserve came in round 4 or 5.... still killed stern and a NDK with my Huskblade archon and got a draw.

If i would have left my complet army on the board, i would have won the game, that's for sure, still it wasn't the best army list(his) so no biggie.. and fun was had on both sides!

The Army List the thread is referring to is quite a tuff one. Lots of amour and 3 RifelBots. On the other side, funny Vect with Trueborn sniper squads(3 Trueborn 2 DL sitting in cover) doesn't seem to be a fun against fun match...

Either way, dark Eldar should focus on the "easy-win" bringing lots of pressure on a small part of the opponents army. That beeing said, any castle army with amour is a tuff nut to crack, but DE can bringt the amount of needed overkill to break a GK amour list.
Not in every game, but that just comes with it, if your Codex is a balanced one ;-)

sláinte, crazy

[Vindur]

Heres the general outline Dark Link
Duke
2 Heamonculus
8 wyches in a raider x 2
9 bloodbrides with hydras in a raider
10 wracks 2 liquifiers in a raider
5 wracks in a raider (harlies take it)
8 harlies with kisses and a shadowseer (still not sold on the unit)
2 ravagers
6 bikes with cluster caltrops
razor wing

all vehicles have night shields and the HS ones have flickers


1st was trip dread knights crowe and 50 purifiers
2nd was libby, the normal character that crowe is, cant remember then name, psyfle dreads 15 termis, 10 interceptors 2 x 7 man strikes 10 purifiers.
3rd was 10 termies libby, 2 dreads, 3 x 6 purifiers with psycannons with asscan razorbacks with psybots and a dread knight

[DarkLink]

Ok, yeah, Dreadknights aren't so hot against DE. And the only real significant difference between your list and my opponent's is really just the Baron and nightshields. I'll have to play a game with flickerfields on his vehicles. He can drop Vect to a normal archon and probably get the points for it right there.



Every time I hear this from somebody who isn't playing Tau or artillery Guard, I question the playing quality of both the person making the statement and their opponent.

Guess which I would rather take given the points?

First off, we're not talking about tailored lists. This isn't about "I know I'll be facing GKs, so I'll take nightshields on everything". My intent is to ask "how would tournament DE face GKs, and will GKs change DE tournament lists significantly".

Secondly, I'm not a DE player. I never claimed to be an expert on what DE should or should not take. Insulting my competence, and the competence of my opponent, is pointless. If you want to get into a dick-measuring contest on the internet where no one can pull out a ruler, go ahead, but don't pretend that it is productively contributing to the thread.

Thirdly, now that GKs have come out I can see nightshield becoming much more common amongst DE players. Previously it helped a little against melta, but frankly most good competitive lists should have enough longer-ranged anti-tank as to make nightshields somewhat pointless on most DE vehicles.

And as for flickerfields, I can think of several DE players whos competence is not in question who swear by them. I don't know what they think of nightshields, but I don't hear much about nightshields compared to flickerfields.

Buffo:

[The internet] is re-taw-ded [if it doesn't like flickerfields].

From YTTH:

I used to run with Nightshields in addition to the Flickerfields, but they’re more of a luxury I’ve found than a necessity. The FF might not always save you, but it’s always going to give you a chance, unlike NS. While the Nightshields would be BOSS to have against Grey Knights, I don’t know if I can justify retooling the vehicle loadouts of my entire army based on a single codex.


3++ is the new black:

...Flickerfield*: This is probably the standard upgrade for Dark Eldar vehicles...

I don't know, maybe all these guys are all incompetent. But don't insult me because I've relied on them for my information on how DE play since I don't play them myself.





Tell your "resident expert" to think outside his little box and try something different, spamming 2-3 units is a onetrick pony that will leave your vulnerable once the trick is figured out.

I myself play what I think is an allcomer list with the models currently available to me, I seldom change anything in it other than how I play it because it's set up in a way so it can adjust to several different scenarios and styles.


The purpose of this thread is not to insult my friend's competence or ability to think independently, especially when you go on to state that you just play with the list you have. Well, that happens to be exactly what my friend does. And since you didn't seem to understand this, my friend did not just copy some armylist off warseer. He, over the course of a couple months of playing locally and in various tournaments, found a list that he likes and works for him. He also happens to post on Dakka with advice for DE players based on his experience, once again of his own initiative and not simply copy/pasting "oh man msu is awesome!".

Other individuals in this thread have actually been productive, and it seems that nightfields go a long ways to helping out DE (though I'd like to see if there are more tricks that the DE can pull).

Oh, and since you seem to dislike MSU stuff, my opponent's Venoms have done more damage to me than anything else in his army. 5x12 splinter cannon shots a turn that I don't have time to deal with till turn 3-4 kills more Terminators than one round of shooting with 15 Dark Lances from Ravagers/Raiders. And aside from his triple Ravagers and multiple Venoms, you can't really call anything in his list spam, and multiple Ravagers/Venoms are very good unit choices, though they are far from the only viable options.


And just a quick little hint about communicating effectively, Quaade. If you know you're going to sound arrogant and insulting, openly stating this isn't going to make you sound any less arrogant and insulting. Drop the arrogance and drop the insult, and your target might actually listen to you.






Now, can we get on topic? Which, by the way, is not "question Darklink and his friend's competence blindly". It is 'how do Gks affect tournament DE lists'. Nightshields is a start, anyone have any experience with Webway Portals or non-skimmer based DE lists?

[w7west]

The only de players I know that don't exploit nightsheilds are the ones who were playing space mariens 6 months ago.

[Denied]

HAHAHAHAHA, wow this thread devolved into pure hatred very quickly, It's all good I love ya DL. Me and you can go have some internet babies and they can go around blasting DE players in the face with psycannons while laughing and making their 3+ cover saves left and right!

[tabyrd]

I can comment on portal lists. While I don't play them exclusively, I have had many many dark eldar games against a wide variety of opponents and have thrown in portals to try to offset my list(s)' weaknesses. I have also played grey knights against dark eldar and knowing the DE as much as I do, it was an uphill battle for the DE.

Cons of portals:

1. You have to jump out and throw the portal. 35pts for a portal that only a few HQs can take. Jumping out in midfield can sometimes be suicide for the HQ and or any accompanying squads. Is that a viable strategy?

2. Portals in midfield can be surrounded before your reserves come in. If you go only ground forces and 1 portal, you could risk being left out to dry if your reserve rolls come up and the portal is surrounded. It doesn't take much to block the portal. Taking 2 portals just increases costs and risk (see 1.) this leads to taking jump infantry (hellions) or bikes as better portal jumpers but changes your lists significantly.

3. Not necessarily a con, but deploying the portal in terrain sucks for your ground forces. You don't want to slow your exodus from the portal with DT tests or give up your Initiative in combat if you don't have grenades. Of course you usually try and jump out in terrain to preserve the delivery HQ/unit so it's a tricky situation. You don't want to get too aggressive with deployment where it makes it easy for the opponent to block/redirect your ground portal forces.

4. reserves. this is one of the biggest cons of portals. You have no control of what/when comes out of the portal and when other than wholesale not going into reserve but that's why you have a portal right?!. Any reserve game runs that risk, so it's not a new problem or something specific to portals. It's not like you are always stuck having to reserve if you see the portal is not necessary, but adding in a 'just in case' portal is hard on pts efficiency. Going all portal all the way now puts you squarely in the 'hope i can roll good reserves' for every game and I don't see that meeting with much success.

So after saying all that, I like portals. They have their uses and can potentially be a big game changer. I don't believe in the all in portal lists because of the variability of reserves, but if you can afford the 35pts + HQ, it's a neat option to have.

From a facing grey knights perspective, I played GK against a friend's DE portal list where a beast squad was able to exit the portal turn 2 and multi-charge some units including a few psydreads. Spacing is key! Perfect for the DE player to limit my shooting for a few turns. Beasts have such a huge threat range, they are great and relatively cheap. Bikes out of a portal with heat lances also work great. Bikes in general with their huge movement can be quite the pain for grey knights. If they get a pain token early, their turbo boosting bladevanes (caltrops are cool) can really set them up for success if you can manage to pop some rhinos for them to fly over. Most small 5 man squads people run these days are perfect fodder for these guys. Saying that, their huge movement and melta toting capability usually makes them a huge target priority. Fly them up 36" next to some dreads and now everyone in their dog will move towards/target them freeing up a turn for other stuff (everything?!) to move up. You can't just fly them up unsupported and you typically need a pair of bike squads. If you put them in a risky spot (hopefully you have a token!), you need to present as many targets/threats next turn to make the push effective.

Despite what anyone says, Dark lances are just crap at beating armor 12. Ask any dark eldar player what he thinks about dark lances. Just calculate the odds and see how many lances you need to crack a single dread (not counting any cover saves!). I don't need to calculate the odds, I can tell from game play, busting a lot of armor from shooting alone is really tough. Lets see the 2 landraider lists, YEAH! 10 rhinos/chimeras? No No No. The best you can do is hope to stun/shake some dangerous shooting vehicles for another turn. Grey Knights and fortitude just make it that much worse since it seems that if I ever do manage to penetrate something and get through any cover saves, I'll just roll a 1 or 2 and shake my fist violently in the air.

DE don't have the staying power to sustain dreads firing at them for multiple turns. If you don't silence those guns early (either by shooting or assault), you are going to be hard pressed to win.

My $0.02. Hopefully it's helpful.

Thomas

[DarkLink]

I've played a DE WWP list once, using the old GK codex. He basically just had a single haemoculus with nothing but the portal, move him up in a raider as soon as possible and dropped the portal as far forward as he could turn 1. He had taken a couple beast units and some stuff that could fly, so it worked pretty well. I think that you could make a pretty good list using the various de jump infantry/bikes combined with skimmers for firepower, and have the option to reserve lots of stuff and come in from the middle of the table.

In fact, I think this would be a good way to go, take some fire support skimmers with nightshields (ravagers and venoms), and sacrifice a cheap haemoculus so that your more assaulty elements can pop out of the middle of the board without getting shot. A Gk player with no psyrifle dreads would have difficulty dealing with the back support elements due to his short range and the threat posed by the reserved units that can assault him if he advances too much. A GK list with lots of psyrifle dreads could still do pretty well, though.

A note on psyrifle dreads, I think there's a certain minimum critical mass for every point level. At 2000pts, 1-2 dreads isn't enough, as an opponent will have enough firepower that you can't shake/kill everything and that returning firepower can silence your dreads more quickly. 3+ Dreads, however, can win most shooting matches, particularly against DE who have short enough ranged guns that they have to expose themselves to the rest of the GK army in order to engage the Dreads.


HAHAHAHAHA, wow this thread devolved into pure hatred very quickly, It's all good I love ya DL. Me and you can go have some internet babies and they can go around blasting DE players in the face with psycannons while laughing and making their 3+ cover saves left and right!

Hah, yeah, I'm good, I'm not the type to hold grudges. I just won't stand derogatory comments against my friend, whom I happen to know is a perfectly good player. That's not why I started this thread. I wanted to know other's thoughts on Gks versus DE, and it started to turn into how my friend "should express his true feelings with non-spammy units, because I think anyone who spams units is the devil":rolleyes:.

[DrBored]

This is a thing that happens a lot... where people do a whole heck of a lot of 'what if' when it comes to two different armies in 40k.

'Well I've got 3+ armor saves!'
'Well I've got 4+ cover and 4+ FNP!'
'Well I've got str 6 weapons!'
'Well I've got poison 4+ weapons!'

None of it really matters until you get to the table.

The bottom line is that perhaps the Dark Eldar players you've faced are simply not yet comfortable playing against Grey Knights. You know the GK Codex, their strengths and weaknesses, and they don't yet. Soon, they'll catch on to what's killing them and they'll kill you all the harder. Or heck, you'll learn DE weaknesses (or you already know them) and you kill /them/ all the harder.

So keep playing. You'll start losing as people get wise to GK. This happens with every new Codex. It shoots up to the top because nobody knows how to face it, then it starts to balance out to its rightful place in the tiers. Whether GK is going to be a top-tier army is yet to be seen.

[thecactusman17]

You know what, I think I came across a little harsher than I should have in my previous post. Every time I see night shields mentioned on bols lately, it seems that people are deriding them who have never taken them, ran them ineffectively, our are taking the word of somebody who falls under the first category. It becomes immensely frustrating to see someone who holds so much sway over the opinions if people here apparently doing the same. I know of several players including myself who find them to be one of the best and most unique options in the codex, especially for assault oriented armies. I would encourage your friend to revisit the option in future games, especially for units that would be spending the first turn or two moving flat out.

Sincerely,
Thecactusman17

[thecactusman17]

You know what, I think I came across a little harsher than I should have in my previous post. Every time I see night shields mentioned on bols lately, it seems that people are deriding them who have never taken them, ran them ineffectively, our are taking the word of somebody who falls under the first category. It becomes immensely frustrating to see someone who holds so much sway over the opinions if people here apparently doing the same. I know of several players including myself who find them to be one of the best and most unique options in the codex, especially for assault oriented armies. I would encourage your friend to revisit the option in future games, especially for units that would be spending the first turn or two moving flat out.

Sincerely,
Thecactusman17

[w7west]

You know what, I think I came across a little harsher than I should have in my previous post. Every time I see night shields mentioned on bols lately, it seems that people are deriding them who have never taken them, ran them ineffectively, our are taking the word of somebody who falls under the first category. It becomes immensely frustrating to see someone who holds so much sway over the opinions if people here apparently doing the same. I know of several players including myself who find them to be one of the best and most unique options in the codex, especially for assault oriented armies. I would encourage your friend to revisit the option in future games, especially for units that would be spending the first turn or two moving flat out.

Sincerely,
Thecactusman17

I think he is saying nightsheilds are good perhaps even crucial. This is correct.

[DarkLink]

You know what, I think I came across a little harsher than I should have in my previous post.

It's cool. Like I said, I'm not the type to hold grudges. And part of it was the multiple comments that made them individually sound harsher than they were. Quaade's "your friend needs to learn to think for himself" comment didn't help.



I know of several players including myself who find them to be one of the best and most unique options in the codex, especially for assault oriented armies. I would encourage your friend to revisit the option in future games, especially for units that would be spending the first turn or two moving flat out.

Sincerely,
Thecactusman17

I think he is now, after our last game. I know he was definitely considering some things that could be done to open up his armies options to make them more viable against my type of GK list.

[Nosmo75]

"Despite what anyone says, Dark lances are just crap at beating armor 12. Ask any dark eldar player what he thinks about dark lances. Just calculate the odds and see how many lances you need to crack a single dread (not counting any cover saves!). I don't need to calculate the odds, I can tell from game play, busting a lot of armor from shooting alone is really tough. Lets see the 2 landraider lists, YEAH! 10 rhinos/chimeras? No No No. The best you can do is hope to stun/shake some dangerous shooting vehicles for another turn. Grey Knights and fortitude just make it that much worse since it seems that if I ever do manage to penetrate something and get through any cover saves, I'll just roll a 1 or 2 and shake my fist violently in the air."

I am reeeeally glad that it's not just me that notices this! The penny really dropped part way my first DE match against my friend Josh, when I realised that power weapons don't double the wielder's strength (I usually play Orks), and I then realised that my Dark Lance-toting Warriors had all been wank-handed spanners in the previous shooting phases, and that they were unlikely to get amazingly accurate shots off at my friend's Devilfish and Hammerheads any time soon (and they didn't disappoint or, rather, they did). Since then I've been trying to keep calm and carry on, but it's damn difficult when I can't seem to bust enemy armour with an army that supposedly tears through it like a hot knife through butter. :(

I know that part of this might be fire discipline, and that "concentrating all fire on the Super Star Destroyer!" should help, so I live in hope. :o

"Every time I see night shields mentioned on bols lately, it seems that people are deriding them who have never taken them, ran them ineffectively, our are taking the word of somebody who falls under the first category. It becomes immensely frustrating to see someone who holds so much sway over the opinions if people here apparently doing the same. I know of several players including myself who find them to be one of the best and most unique options in the codex, especially for assault oriented armies. I would encourage your friend to revisit the option in future games, especially for units that would be spending the first turn or two moving flat out."

It is true that I have never taken Night Shields myself, but that's because they look to me like an unreliable upgrade at best and a waste of points on par with taking Grot Riggers/Armour Plates on Killa Kan squadrons in 5th Ed at worst. I thought at first I could see a use for them on Ravagers as per Phil Kelly's advice, as it protects them from most retaliation, but I play against Tau and Mech Guard, where it will do sod all, and Space Wolves with 1-2 Long Fang squads where it won't do much.

That said, as I think Night Shields to be only useful at reducing the range of tanks and artillery, why do you use them in the opposite way? If a Raider is 24" away from a Tactical Squad, the Tactical Squad's bolter range is reduced to 18", but in order to assault from a Raider, you'd have to be 18" away. So, your Raider stops 18" away at the end of your movement phase, the Tactical Squads...

That's as far as I got before I realised my mistake. By taking Night Shields on your Raiders, you have almost completely negated the risk of your Raiders being blown out of the sky before your troops can assault (beyond a run roll less than 4", which is out of your hands anyway)! With a 12" deployment zone and enhanced aethersails, that's a potential assault range of 51"! A Realm of Battle gameboard (which is what I play against my friend's armies on) is only 72"! Which leaves my friend's deployment zone within 9"! Lots of exclamations justify my exclamation points!

Well. I *was* going to go on and ask you to explain your thinking to me, but as my argument is... *turns to look back at crash-landed argument as it blows to smithereens* :confused: ...erm, invalid, that's no longer necessary, but thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. :D

[thecactusman17]

It is true that I have never taken Night Shields myself, but that's because they look to me like an unreliable upgrade at best and a waste of points on par with taking Grot Riggers/Armour Plates on Killa Kan squadrons in 5th Ed at worst. I thought at first I could see a use for them on Ravagers as per Phil Kelly's advice, as it protects them from most retaliation, but I play against Tau and Mech Guard, where it will do sod all, and Space Wolves with 1-2 Long Fang squads where it won't do much.

That said, as I think Night Shields to be only useful at reducing the range of tanks and artillery, why do you use them in the opposite way? If a Raider is 24" away from a Tactical Squad, the Tactical Squad's bolter range is reduced to 18", but in order to assault from a Raider, you'd have to be 18" away. So, your Raider stops 18" away at the end of your movement phase, the Tactical Squads...

That's as far as I got before I realised my mistake. By taking Night Shields on your Raiders, you have almost completely negated the risk of your Raiders being blown out of the sky before your troops can assault (beyond a run roll less than 4", which is out of your hands anyway)! With a 12" deployment zone and enhanced aethersails, that's a potential assault range of 51"! A Realm of Battle gameboard (which is what I play against my friend's armies on) is only 72"! Which leaves my friend's deployment zone within 9"! Lots of exclamations justify my exclamation points!

Well. I *was* going to go on and ask you to explain your thinking to me, but as my argument is... *turns to look back at crash-landed argument as it blows to smithereens* :confused: ...erm, invalid, that's no longer necessary, but thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. :D

Glad to see you are getting the idea! I will openly admit that Tau can be rock hard in 5th edition (there's a guy I know at a local GW who has a nasty trick that causes 75% of his army to come on the board on turn *5*) but you shouldn't lose all hope.

The nightshields are a great upgrade for a handful of reasons: First off, they ALWAYS WORK against the items they work against, even if they don't have much impact. And I'm a big believer that removing dice from any equation is a good thing, so not relying on a fallible save is a big deal to me when I KNOW that very often my opponent won't be able to shoot at me until it's too late.

Another key reason is that your opponent will have to reevaluate his deployment and movement to accommodate your gear choice. This causes my opponents to either overextend or cower in less effective placement far more often than you would think. It's a pretty common thing that the fleshy pieces of my opponent sit back and wait while he commits several of his most powerful tanks up front. This is a readily exploitable mistake, allowing me to concentrate my firepower into a few single points on the board.

[GrenAcid]

@Up
Hey, I belive NS are great upgrade on right models(imo HS slot/shooty raider) but I dont see them usefull on raider with eathersails full of wyches, cuz IMO if you dont have turbo-boost cover save you did it wrong, and it was enough to shake of 40 bolter shots before nice assault next turn.
I think its pointless to spend 10pt on suicide taxi, that is just my opinion.

[thecactusman17]

Gren, a turbo-boost cover save is very critical and the main reason I don't typically take Nightshields. However, you are mistaken in thinking that the investment is a waste of 10 points. Here are a handful of the things that Nightshields do for you:

No first turn shooting from heavy bolters, multi-lasers, shuriken cannons and other mid-range weaponry that puts holes into AV10 easily.

Nearly no deepstrike melta or plasma spam with a 6" range on 12" guns.

Bolters and Plasma Rifles are made significantly less threatening by either reducing the range to nearly point blank or forcing your opponent to stand in place to fire, even if that would be tactically inadvisable.

Makes your opponent rely more heavily on indirect fire barrages, which can miss and cause devastating damage to nearby enemy units. Further, you are granted a cover save against these same attacks.

Flickerfields, on the other hand, give you a one in three chance of avoiding damage from stuff that has already caused yet unknown damage to your raider.

[GrenAcid]

No first turn shooting from heavy bolters, multi-lasers, shuriken cannons and other mid-range weaponry that puts holes into AV10 easily.
I did some math, and your point is valid only if deployment zone is 8-9" long. Otherwise is gambling where he going to set mid-rage support. I preffer to hide and jump on with eathersails.


Nearly no deepstrike melta or plasma spam with a 6" range on 12" guns.
Yeah, If your marine players dont use drop pods, my do, and 3-melta in sterns droping at your face thanks to drop pod rules dont give a damn about NS. Helps with IG-vet with plasma I give you that.

I dont use FF on sueside taxi, my choice is eathersails/TGL and if still have points shock prow(for fun).
Geting to enemy and winning combat are my priorities, I dont rly care if cardboard taxi gets shoot down afther.
On other hand I dont leave my ravager without NS/FF but its worth and vital to keep him working.