Tom Kirby and GW - a policy insight... [Archive] - BoLS Lounge : Wargames, Warhammer & Miniatures Forum

Denzark

05-19-2011, 07:02 AM

Chaps

I found this post by Lattd, in Skragger's latest poll on prices post, very interesting:

I wont be buying a GW model for a while, however i did buy into GW for one simple purpose, GW needs to keep its share holders happy if everyone on this forum buys a couple of shares and then badgers Tom Kirby with emails heres the link, http://investor.games-workshop.com/information_for_investors/talk_to_tom/default.aspx , if enough share holders tell him hes doing it wrong he either has to listen and lower prices or face a vote of no confidence.

Now I followed the link to the GW investors page, wehre there is an 'ask Tom kirby' feature.

Just to hgihlight, some of his answers are archived there, so you can see a reply to why he thinks the prices are fine, and why he doesn't listen to internet complaints. This was an interesting insght - you too can buy £5 of shares and then write and complain.

If enough of us bought shares to form a controlling fanbase bloc, this would be interesting...

Brass Scorpion

05-19-2011, 07:53 AM

Do you know who the largest shareholder in GW is by miles? Take one guess.

lattd

05-19-2011, 07:58 AM

If everyone on this forum brought shares with the money the would use for any hobby projects they were planning it would be very interesting to see how much control the fans would end up with.

When my share certificate comes in the post i'll email Mr Kirby and point out that if these new price rises cause a loss of ten thousand customers whom each planned on spending £100 that's a million pound he has just cost the company and by the sounds of it these price rises have killed the south american market so that figure is pretty easy to reach.

Wolfshade

05-19-2011, 08:00 AM

Of course if you buy enough shares, then the dividends you get each year will hopefully cover the price hikes, and if not, well charge more for the minis to increase profits so you can get a bigger payout :)

Denzark

05-19-2011, 08:12 AM

Share buying.

1. Win Eurolottery.
2. Buy controlling stake in GW.
3. By PP.
4. Sell PP and LotR to Hasbro.
5. Increase specialist game support.
6. Relax by my pool, looking at my fully forgeworld-stocked games room whilst chugging down bollinger-stolichnya...

wittdooley

05-19-2011, 08:26 AM

Bah....

Thanks for pointing those out Denzark. Kirby comes across so, so, so very poorly in his responses. They all seem so damn condescending.

I get that he's probably not a hobbyist. That's fine. Quite frankly, I think I'd prefer the CFO or COO of a publicy traded gaming company to not be fully entrenched in the hobby, as it would divorce passion (as hobbies are driven by passion) from the need to garner positive dividends; however, they shouldn't be so flippant to the people that hold shares that are clearly hobbyists.

MaltonNecromancer

05-19-2011, 09:56 AM

Companies like GW are legally required (i.e.: they're breaking the law if they refuse) to make profit, to the exclusion of all other considerations. Hence the price rises. Becoming shareholders and complaining is a good idea, but only if you have a serious amount of hard data categorically proving that the price rise has hurt the company.

Which I doubt it will; there is a recession on, and you'd have to also prove any fall in profits wasn't the result of the recession. Which will be very hard to do.

Kirby comes across so, so, so very poorly in his responses. They all seem so damn condescending.

Who is surprised by this? He's a man who knows for an empirical fact that you and your opinions don't matter whereas his do. Of course he's going to be condescending; as far as the company goes, he matters a lot more than you do. The company is currently in profit. Ergo, internet complaints are worth nothing. Money talks, moaning walks.

I get that he's probably not a hobbyist. That's fine. Quite frankly, I think I'd prefer the CFO or COO of a publicy traded gaming company to not be fully entrenched in the hobby

Of course he's not a hobbyist; the idea he would be is so naive it's actually quite frightening, and shows one of the problems of the gaming community - everyone seems to think these people actually care about anything but money. They don't. This is the real world; people who become company directors, by and large, are virulently obsessed with the acquisition of wealth. Even if he was a hobbyist, why should he care about the price you pay? He wouldn't have to. Stop imagining these people to be anything but entirely selfish when it comes to business, because if they're not, they won't be any good at the basic job of keeping the company going!

however, they shouldn't be so flippant to the people that hold shares that are clearly hobbyists.

Why not? Does the battery farmer care that the hens are unhappy? Of course not; stop imagining that they see you as anything but an animal to be farmed - and not in a nice free-range way. A battery farmer can kick the chickens, and the chickens can do exactly two things about it: nothing, and like it.

A battery hen can't better it's lot by fighting the system, or by trying to become a farmer - buying shares won't give you CEO powers, it'll make you a chicken wearing a flat cap. The only way it can make it's life better is escape.

So we either escape, or carry on laying our eggs.

Buk-buk!

wittdooley

05-19-2011, 10:40 AM

Malton--

I agree with you on all points regarding how to run something for financial gain; I work for a bank. However, I still don't know that it necessary that he be so condescending in the responses. There are ways to present your content but maintain a respectful tone.

And I really appreciate your chicken analogy, though to be fair, it isn't spot on. As consumers, we do have more options than the chicken, as the chicken are the product.

IMO, his tone is simply more dismissive than it needs to be.

MaltonNecromancer

05-19-2011, 11:07 AM

IMO, his tone is simply more dismissive than it needs to be.

Don't get me wrong; I think the guy's a grade-A nasty piece of work. But I also think that time spent about complaining that CEO's are dismissive is time that could be just as effectively spent complaining that rain is wet, or that frogs can hop, or that... well, that chickens lay eggs. He is what he is, and he's not going to be anything else.

As consumers, we do have more options than the chicken, as the chicken are the product.

From his point of view, you are an animal to be farmed; you see you are a product to him. The repeat business you provide (i.e.: money you pay) is the product you produce. To him you are nothing, nothing more. After all, aside from your money, what on Earth could you offer him? He doesn't need your love or respect; he's got those from people who matter to him already. As well as your money, now. If we keep buying from him, it's yet more empirical fact: "I can talk to these idiots any way I like, and they keep coming back!"

In brute terms, once one has agreed to sell oneself, all that is left is to haggle over price.

The only difference between you and a farm animal is whether you leave the farm or not. Complaining to government agencies won't help (as unless GW's lawyers are grotesquely incompetent, everything GW is doing will be legal; based on past precedent, GW's lwayers are anything but grotesquely incompetent. They seem to do their jobs very well...) Without recourse to a higher power, all our options are limited to two: stop p/laying, or keep p/laying. We have exactly one more option than the chicken. The chicken doesn't get to stop.

Playing Malifaux or Warmachine or whatever isn't going to change the core problem, which is: "I want to buy Citadel miniatures because I like them, but I do not wish to pay the prices as I feel that they do not represent adequate value for the money I am shelling out." Playing another game won't get you miniatures cheaper. Maybe if everyone in the gaming community does it will... but I can't see that happening. I prefer to deal in probable realities than hopeful dreams, and every experience of my life has taught me one thing: the world is a brutal place, and ultimately, no-one, no-one at all matters. Life is not fair, nor does it give the slightest fig about hurt feelings. Especially over something as ultimately irrelevant as a tabletop toy soldiers game.

(This belief, incidentally, is why I believe it's so important to be nice to people. As the universe is random chaos, and nothing cares for us, then we have to care for each other. We are all we have.)

JxKxR

05-19-2011, 11:09 AM

If you want those greedy dicks to come down off their prices you have to show them that the price hikes really do hurt them.

Although GW is technically making profit right now I don't think it's what we would call true profit because they made a bunch of staff cuts and rose prices. This strategy is only good for showing share holders that you are doing well even though you really aren't and are only temporary band aids to a massive head wound.

With the staff cuts there is less hands on help and guiding with the hobby so this could mean less new players. We can also take into account the seemingly constant prise rise. A new army you planned to buy might be somewhere between 20 to 50 dollars more expensive now. This might not be such a big deal if EVERYTHING else hadn't of gotten a big price rise too, but now essentials are starting to cut into our money we used to be using for our hobby. This price increase is starting to push some of us out of the hobby so if there are any new players who are they going to learn from and play with???

I've recently been seeing a bunch of resteraunts going out of business and they seem to follow a pattern.
They have some slow times so to increase profit they do what GW has been doing. They raise their prices and cut back on portions. This is the kiss of death. The loyal customers who see them through the slow times start going somewhere else because they are getting jipped! Then the resteraunt goes under.

I'm going to buy some shares because I've already invested to much money into this game to not be heard and Tom Kirby is going to kill GW with his easy answers to serious problems.

wittdooley

05-19-2011, 11:20 AM

Such a great response, Malton. I really enjoyed reading it. I misread your analogy then; didn't realize you meant it in that regard, in which case you're absolutely correct.

fuzzbuket

05-19-2011, 11:25 AM

and a highlights of some of fuzzys favrouit bits!

Also, our miniatures are the best in the world and we believe in charging premium prices for our premium products and services.

*COUGH*forgeword**cough*studiomcvey*COGH*them chaps who make infinty*cough*eduard(modelplanes*cough

What we are selling is a hobby – not toys and not a pass-time
oh so they arnt toys.. or a passtime?

they get wonderful value for money from Games Workshop

O REAlLY

Far better value, I suggest, than from similar amounts of money spent on meals out, sports events, boozy nights in the pub. Go to the cinema and you can have an hour and a half of fun. Buy Warhammer and you can enjoy it for the rest of your life

until the latset dex or the next time when i walk into a GW and is badgerd to buy everything.

It’s nice to have the extra revenue for this short period – but that is all it is: extra revenue for a short period. (refering to LOTR)

so its not a mainstream game like the games it replaced?

We are a world-wide company

NORTHEN HEMISHPERE

We already have a very lively community forum on our main .com website, where Hobbyists can ask questions about specific games developments and projects

really? where is this

however with his minor blunders and position as largest GW shareholder kirby looks a wee bit daft.. however there is some good:

At present, discounts on the company’s products are not available. However, we may review our position on this in the future.

good news..sorta like spend £3 on a share then get monies off.. ZING!

-fuzz

weeble1000

05-19-2011, 12:42 PM

DarkLink

05-19-2011, 01:24 PM

oh so they arnt toys.. or a passtime?

I thought they were war barbies:)

Edit:

So, Denzark, you frown on a boycott and accuse customer feedback of being a useless waste of time, and yet you want people to go buying up a controlling interest in Games Workshop PLC?

Honestly, the idea that there is some dark, shadowy room with a bunch of non-hobby shareholders sitting around a table laughing maniacally while they approve fiscal policies that hate hobbiests, and all we need to do is buy a couple shares each and suddenly save the day is kinda laughable.

DadExtraordinaire

05-19-2011, 01:52 PM

Companies like GW are legally required (i.e.: they're breaking the law if they refuse) to make profit, to the exclusion of all other considerations. Hence the price rises. Becoming shareholders and complaining is a good idea, but only if you have a serious amount of hard data categorically proving that the price rise has hurt the company.

Which I doubt it will; there is a recession on, and you'd have to also prove any fall in profits wasn't the result of the recession. Which will be very hard to do.

Who is surprised by this? He's a man who knows for an empirical fact that you and your opinions don't matter whereas his do. Of course he's going to be condescending; as far as the company goes, he matters a lot more than you do. The company is currently in profit. Ergo, internet complaints are worth nothing. Money talks, moaning walks.

Of course he's not a hobbyist; the idea he would be is so naive it's actually quite frightening, and shows one of the problems of the gaming community - everyone seems to think these people actually care about anything but money. They don't. This is the real world; people who become company directors, by and large, are virulently obsessed with the acquisition of wealth. Even if he was a hobbyist, why should he care about the price you pay? He wouldn't have to. Stop imagining these people to be anything but entirely selfish when it comes to business, because if they're not, they won't be any good at the basic job of keeping the company going!

Why not? Does the battery farmer care that the hens are unhappy? Of course not; stop imagining that they see you as anything but an animal to be farmed - and not in a nice free-range way. A battery farmer can kick the chickens, and the chickens can do exactly two things about it: nothing, and like it.

A battery hen can't better it's lot by fighting the system, or by trying to become a farmer - buying shares won't give you CEO powers, it'll make you a chicken wearing a flat cap. The only way it can make it's life better is escape.

So we either escape, or carry on laying our eggs.

Buk-buk!
oops

Nabterayl

05-19-2011, 03:08 PM

Best way I ever heard a corporation described, by a professor back in law school:

CORPORATION: "Who wants to give me money? Anybody? I'll use it for your benefit."

SHAREHOLDER: "I'm interested! What will you do with my money if I give it to you?"

CORPORATION: "Oh, whatever I want. But it'll be for your benefit."

SHAREHOLDER: "Oh ... well, how often will I get a return on my investment?"

CORPORATION: "As often as I feel like it. But I'll be working for your benefit the whole time."

SHAREHOLDER: "Oh ... uh, well, how much return will I get on my investment?"

CORPORATION: "Well, I don't actually have to give you anything, as long as I use all the money I make for your benefit."

SHAREHOLDER: "So ... what does that mean, anyway? For my benefit."

CORPORATION: "That's up to my business judgment."

SHAREHOLDER: "Oh ..."

CORPORATION: "So, still want to give me money?"

Necron2.0

05-19-2011, 03:58 PM

What we are selling is a hobby – not toys and not a pass-time

No, moron. You're selling a nerdy tabletop wargame, which by definition IS both a toy and a pass-time.

Far better value, I suggest, than from similar amounts of money spent on meals out, sports events, boozy nights in the pub. Go to the cinema and you can have an hour and a half of fun. Buy Warhammer and you can enjoy it for the rest of your life

Well, first off, those meals out, trips to the cinema and/or boozy nights out could end with me getting laid, which is INFINITELY better than a lifetime of looking at a small plastic army man. Second, for the cost of the average 40K army I could buy a library of DVDs, own them for as long as I am likely to own my little army men, and get more enjoyment out of them over the long hall.

The take away from this is Mr. Kirby is one raging daft jack-wagon.

Col_Festus

05-19-2011, 04:09 PM

No, moron. You're selling a nerdy tabletop wargame, which by definition IS both a toy and a pass-time.

Well, first off, those meals out, trips to the cinema and/or boozy nights out could end with me getting laid, which is INFINITELY better than a lifetime of looking at a small plastic army man. Second, for the cost of the average 40K army I could buy a library of DVDs, own them for as long as I am likely to own my little army men, and get more enjoyment out of them over the long hall.

The take away from this is Mr. Kirby is one raging daft jack-wagon.

Yeah and I don't have to put hours and hours of work into painting, building them, and then trying to find an opponent that isn't a daft looney and plays the game the same way I do...

slxiii

05-19-2011, 05:11 PM

Well, first off, those meals out, trips to the cinema and/or boozy nights out could end with me getting laid, which is INFINITELY better than a lifetime of looking at a small plastic army man.

I'd wager my countless hours enjoying painting my figures, modelling them, and playing games with them as quite a bit more entertaining than a drunken one night stand. But that's just me.

Denzark

05-19-2011, 05:12 PM

So, Denzark, you frown on a boycott and accuse customer feedback of being a useless waste of time, and yet you want people to go buying up a controlling interest in Games Workshop PLC? As if this scheme doesn't suffer from the same criticisms you flung at legitimate means for customers to influence the behavior of a company.

One share gives you a vote and let's you make trouble in shareholder meetings. That's all you need to be annoying to Tom Kirby, assuming your goal is to undermine investor confidence and devalue the stock, which is what Ol' Tom would be concerned about. What was it you said about "attacking" a company with a boycott when its revenue was down?

By the way, the Talk To Tom form doesn't work. You'll have to e-mail investor relations directly. Sue sent me a nice response recently after I sent a direct e-mail. I had already sent several questions through "Talk To Tom" with no response from late March this year. You'll find the investor relations email address on that website though.

I don't think it is at all practical to attempt to buy a controlling interest in Games Workshop PLC, but as I said, having one share makes you a shareholder, gives you a voice in that context, and allows you to vote.

Weeble you clearly misunderstand the cutting edge wit that is the subtle English art of understatement and sarcasm.

Did you not see my second post suggesting a credible plan relied on a lottery win, after which I would buy GW, then PP, then sell PP and LotR to Hasbro?

When someone talks about planning something that relies on a lottery win at odds of less than 1:14000000 you may detect it is detached from reality.

I said the concept of all getting a controlling share and then dictating to the company is INTERESTING. In case you misunderstand by this I meant an amusing pipedream.

This was not a demagogic call to try and kick GW whilst I mistakenly thought they were down. Like the sort of carrion attitudes you were postulating. I don't think that a profit warning followed by the later increases, means the company are vulnerable at all.

Wake up to humour. There is no hypocrisy here. A gentleman always means what he says even if he doesn't say what he means.

Mobynick

05-19-2011, 06:39 PM

I'd wager my countless hours enjoying painting my figures, modelling them, and playing games with them as quite a bit more entertaining than a drunken one night stand. But that's just me.

ARE YOU MAD !!!!! lol

MaltonNecromancer you are an interesting dude, shame you're in the UK. Perhaps we can share a beer when I'm over there waitting in the shadows to beat Kirby with a stick :D

Necron2.0

05-19-2011, 07:24 PM

I'd wager my countless hours enjoying painting my figures, modelling them, and playing games with them as quite a bit more entertaining than a drunken one night stand. But that's just me.

Wow. You ARE a nerd. :)

Actually, it's a matter of scale. At the scale of what you're describing, that's more than a few drunken one night stands, thank you very much. ;)

scadugenga

05-19-2011, 09:57 PM

Make sure to have a wingman handy on those drunken outings---elsewise some "memorable" nights you just may not want to remember...

You know, for the paltry sum of about what, $8.00 US, it might be worth it to buy a stock of GW, and then harrass the hell out of the effing idiot...

Can you imagine the vast amusement of every southern hemisphere player who just got ostracized by Kirby's policies buying a single share of stock and bombarding the stockholders with complaints and urging votes of no confidence?

A pipedream, surely---but funny as hell, too.

slxiii

05-20-2011, 01:35 AM

Wow. You ARE a nerd. :)

Actually, it's a matter of scale. At the scale of what you're describing, that's more than a few drunken one night stands, thank you very much. ;)

Indeed I am.
Still, the alcohol will be costing you what, 6 bucks a shot? At least? Plus the cab ride home or paying your DD for gas, Plus whatever food you decide to get.

A months worth of such outings and you could buy a full army at a discount site. Plus I'm sure your liver and brain cells would be much better off.(And possibly your genitals, depending on your chosen company) :p

Denzark

05-20-2011, 01:39 AM

If you play your cards right shewill be buying you the drinks...

Xas

05-20-2011, 05:03 AM

If you play your cards right she will be buying you the drinks...

Its not only about playing your cards right but also about beeing blessed by propper appearances and instincts to manipulate women.

Necron2.0

05-20-2011, 06:30 AM

Its not only about playing your cards right but also about beeing blessed by propper appearances and instincts to manipulate women.

Which, of course, I have in spades:

http://members.cox.net/necron2.0/img/fugly.jpg

[EDIT: In my experience, a good sense of humor never hurt with the ladies either.]

weeble1000

05-20-2011, 12:01 PM

Did you not see my second post suggesting a credible plan relied on a lottery win, after which I would buy GW, then PP, then sell PP and LotR to Hasbro?

Wake up to humour. There is no hypocrisy here. A gentleman always means what he says even if he doesn't say what he means.

So you need to reply to your own thread to get the point across in your first post? What's the point of this thread anyway? To repost an idea that someone had in another thread and wait for people to say how stupid it is so you can agree with them? There's nothing productive about that. Or maybe you wanted to be vague about what you really thought about the idea until someone posted anything in support of it so you could proceed to be insulting.

You aren't contributing anything meaningful. You haven't stated a clear opinion or considered what anyone else has said and responded to it. You think it is a pipe dream to buy up a controlling interest in GW? OKay, fine. I agree with that. I don't think that would go anywhere.

What about buying a share and contacting Tom Kirby? Do you have an opinion on that you should I just assume "you too can buy £5 of shares and then write and complain" means you think the idea is petulant? All you've said so far is that the idea is INTERESTING. Why and in what way?

The problem is that if you actually express a clear opinion others might disagree with you, make compelling arguments in their favor, and demonstrate why your reasoning is flawed. Alternatively, if you simply make one-sided, sarcastic criticisms lacking any substance there isn't much much room for rational discussion, which protects you from actually having to have a rational discussion. Maybe you think that is a win, but I think it is a waste of time.

As to the topic that you have raised, I think attempting to buy a controlling interest in Games Workshop is prohibitively expensive and unlikely to produce results in terms of changing the way that the company is run. Alternatively, I think that buying a single share of GW in order to gain instant credibility as a shareholder is a practical means to have an impact on the company. However, Chairman Kirby and CEO Wells will likely be able to ignore the protests of individual shareholders, but those same shareholders can have an influence in shareholder meetings, or in communicating with other shareholders buy asking the kinds of tough questions about GW's business models and financials that we have seen around the internet in the past several months. This kind of communication might have an impact on Kirby and Wells because it could have the effect of bringing the stock price down.

Even so, becoming a shareholder is only one way to communicate with or influence Games Workshop. Consumers can also "vote with their wallet" and/or provide customer feedback via e-mail, phone, or snail mail. The "top brass" at Games Workshop are technically better able to ignore feedback from customers than from shareholders, but this kind of activity does have an impact on the way a successful company is run. Apple is both a manufacturer and hideously successful retailer in large part because customer satisfaction is a top priority from the architectural design of retail locations, to the training of employees, store policies, and management incentives. If customers communicate with Games Workshop, Games Workshop can ignore it, but not if the company wants to be successful.

So my take on all of this is that if you are a fan of Games Workshop, but you don't like something that the company is doing, communicate it in whatever way you can, whether that's an e-mail to customer service or buying a share and communicating with investor relations.

Denzark

05-20-2011, 12:39 PM

My dear weeb, the point of this thread was that LATTD found something which linked to archived direct responses to investor questions, including one about price rises, that I thought might be interesting to some people. I didn't want to hijack the original thread LATTD posted in.

The point of the thread is somewhat highlighted in the title.

If you can't spot any opinions I care not a fig. +++CENSORED BY THE INQUISITION+++

That clear enough for you?

Bigred

05-20-2011, 01:07 PM

+++EVERYBODY, PLAY NICE+++

The toy soldiers get scared when we argue in front of them....

Denzark

05-20-2011, 01:40 PM

Your servant Sir.

Lane

05-20-2011, 01:59 PM

I've seen a lot of talk about people buying GW stock and pestering the CEO - IMHO that is pointless unless done on a large scale and well organized.

First off there are about 30,000,000 shares of GW stock. To have any significant influence you would need about 10% of that and have a single representative to vote for us.

Over half of GW stock is owned by just five investment groups, it looks like these are the kind of people that care only about their income, not the customers nor the long term health of companies they invest in.

If people started buying GW stock in the numbers needed to have an effect then prices would go up. The increasing value might also cause the major investors to buy more stock giving them, not us, more control.

Pestering the CEO will not work. Almost every CEO has a staff that handles correspondence from all but a select group. All those email complaints get a quick glance and either go in the trash or if lucky a form letter reply. At the end of the week the CEO might get a memo saying 37,000 complaints, none require personal reply.

MaltonNecromancer

05-20-2011, 04:11 PM

Over half of GW stock is owned by just five investment groups, it looks like these are the kind of people that care only about their income, not the customers nor the long term health of companies they invest in.

I believe I may have said some things along these lines :rolleyes:

GW is a business. Business people want money. Money is literally the only thing that matters to these people.

The thing that really surprises me is the fact that people keep talking about these price rises like there's anything they can do to change them. No-one's come out and said it, but there is an 800 pound gorilla of truth in the room:

We are all completely powerless to do anything about these price rises.

You can't stop the sun coming up; you can't make someone love you again once they've stopped. You can't wish yourself straight; you can't bring a loved one back to life. There are limits to what you as an individual can do. Sometimes impossible means impossible. There are so many stories out there telling us "Nothing's impossible if you try hard enough" that people genuinely believe this lie to be the truth. It's not the truth, any more than any other comforting lie.

Buy stock if you want. Go to investor meeting and kick up a stink. Complain online to any and all.

Nothing you do will have any effect, other than bumming you out by showing you just how little you actually matter.

So I doubt it will even make you feel better, because who wants their insignificance rubbed into their face?

Sometimes, you just have to accept that life isn't what you want it to be, and never will be. Part of life is learning to deal with your limitations, and move on. He doesn't love you? Find someone who does. The models you want are expensive? Stop playing.

Sometimes the only power you have is the power to leave. This is one of those times. So with regret, it's crunch time. Stop complaining and fork out, or stop complaining and quit the game. Either way, stop complaining, because (to quote a favourite song) it's as useful as trying to solve algebra equations by chewing bubblegum.

Farseer Uthiliesh

05-20-2011, 04:20 PM

Sometimes the only power you have is the power to leave. This is one of those times. So with regret, it's crunch time. Stop complaining and fork out, or stop complaining and quit the game. Either way, stop complaining, because (to quote a favourite song) it's as useful as trying to solve algebra equations by chewing bubblegum.

No. Some of us still want GW to step back and save the situation. We're entitled to express our opinions on the matter, as are you, but some of us think we can do something. Heck, the head of GW Aus and the head financier here are meeting with several fans on the 31st of this month to discuss the situation. I like that.

MaltonNecromancer

05-20-2011, 05:29 PM

some of us think we can do something.

I'm sure you're wrong. I hope I am.

the head of GW Aus and the head financier here are meeting with several fans on the 31st of this month to discuss the situation.

Genuinely, good luck with that. Business heads only ever meet with their "lessers" to tell them how it is, so don't expect them to listen - they'll be expecting you to listen to them. They've had lots of meetings and discussions already to decide on their business agenda, and they will have many counter arguments ready to go, because they pay people to think of your arguments for them ahead of time so they know what to expect. As a result, I honestly believe that any complaints you make will get nothing but empty platitudes and frustration for your troubles, but here's hoping you're right. Remember that the only things they will listen to must be arguments based on actual financial data (and I'm talking real-world data you've researched, going back at least ten years, as well as data on comparable companies including other wargaming companies like Privateer Press, as well as other companies that compete for the same (generally affluent teenage WASP) money, like Sony, Microsoft, etc... and other "gaming" companies like Waddingtons, etc... so you can adequately look at the wide picture of the industry GW is in)- if you're to have any chance of an impact, you must have a clear understanding of generally successful business practices and ones specific to the wargaming industry; business law; a detailed and thorough understanding of GW's overheads, costs and outgoings, as well as their three-year projections; the impact of the recession on GW's world-wide profits; an alternative financial plan that can be reasonably expected (based on GW's own business models) to generate more profit than their current model; numbers and market research to back this up, as well as a whole lot of charm. If you show up with anything less, they'll smile patronisingly, tell you you're being listened to; then when they're in private they'll giggle about your naivete with their wives - by the morning you'll have been forgotten.

Business at this level is difficult stuff; these people are for real. Don't go alone, and make sure you've got your data and done your homework.

Good luck. :)

scadugenga

05-20-2011, 05:43 PM

Okay, Malton--you're getting a bit melodramatic about the whole situation.

Can individuals bring about the needed paradigm shift in GW corporate policy? Almost assuredly not.

However, we as consumers can effect change. By choosing not to buy. By putting commercial pressure on GW to evaluate what their current business practices are and perhaps to change them.

If you think that consumer pressure cannot effect any kind of change, I want you to please pay attention to the auto industry.

Look at Toyota--with the negative PR and consumer backlash--they did unprecedented (for Toyota) sales and goodwill gestures to try and win back their market share.

Chevrolet and Ford also made great strides in repairing customer relations and changed their overall image with consumers at large. (As my Ford stocks rose dramatically in value...booya!)

You think that GW will be any different (if on a comparatively microscopic scale) when their bottom line is negatively impacted by their unreasonable price increases?

The truth come out in the next several months as we find out if people will put their money where their mouth is, or if they act like the farm animals you intimate they are by shucking out the cash anyways.

Farseer Uthiliesh

05-20-2011, 06:04 PM

Agred, scadugenga. However, this difference with our hobby is that we have no media outlet. Toyata is more likely to be noted in mass media. The fact of the matter is that the wider world doesn't give a damn about model wargaming.

Farseer Uthiliesh

05-20-2011, 06:23 PM

Email reply from GW CE. Wasn't sent to me; just copying it from somewhere else.

Dear XX,

Thanks for contacting Games Workshop about the change in our trading terms for European accounts. I know this has frustrated you and for that I am truly sorry. As a long standing customer, you deserve to know why we made this decision.

As you know, we introduce people to the Games Workshop hobby of collecting, painting and gaming with Citadel miniatures through our Hobby Centres and local independent trade accounts. Games Workshop Hobby Centres run introductory games and painting sessions, beginner lessons, hobby activities and events. We provide all these services free of charge. We only recover this investment if customers then buy products from us.

Where we don't have a Games Workshop Hobby Centre, we support local independent trade accounts. These businesses provide a convenient place for customers to buy our products close to where they live. We support these businesses with local customer service teams and warehouses to ensure customers have immediate access to our best selling products and new releases. Many customers discover the hobby this way.

In addition we invest millions of pounds every year in our design studio and factory to ensure that each month we release more new products. This makes the Games Workshop Hobby more exciting for existing customers, helping them stay in the hobby longer. We can only afford to do this because of the volume of customers we have recruited and developed through our local Hobby Centres and trade accounts.

It is for this reason that we have changed our European Trade terms. Over recent years, a number of currencies have moved a long way from their historical relative values, and this has opened the door for some traders to try to take advantage of these currency movements and offer deep discounts to overseas hobbyists. This has been the case with European internet traders selling to some of our customers overseas.

While this may seem great in the short term, the simple fact is that European internet traders will not invest any money in growing the hobby in your country. Their model is to minimise their costs and free-ride on the investment of Games Workshop and local independent shops in creating a customer base.

We on the other hand have to keep paying our Australian staff, rents and utilities in Australian dollars. While some customers have suggested we halve our prices, the only way we could do that is if we halve our Australian staff's salaries, default on our rents and not pay our suppliers until exchange rates move back into alignment. That's the reality of what a price reduction of this scale means. And we both know that customers who are motivated by price are not going to change their behaviour if it was any less than that.

The inevitable consequence if this was allowed to continue is that Games Workshop would not be able to operate Hobby Centres, nor to support local trade accounts. And if this happened in more territories outside Europe, the loss of volume would leave Games Workshop no choice but to scale back our investment in new product development, further eroding our customer base. Not something that we or our customers would want us to do.

That is why we took the decision to take legitimate action to restrict European trade accounts from selling the goods they purchase from Games Workshop outside Europe. None of the other alternatives were viable.

While I understand that you may still be unhappy with our decision, it was taken to ensure we can continue to support the Games Workshop hobby communities around the world through our Games Workshop Hobby Centres and local trade accounts. And to ensure we continue to invest in developing the best possible new product releases every month. I hope therefore that over time you will see the benefits of this decision for you and your hobby.

Yours sincerely,

Mark Wells

Chief Executive