GK VS IG Tactical advice

[Denied]

So I have been playing the new GK codex for a while now designing the army list that fits my style of play. I feel at this point I have a nice list going and I have play tested it against at least 3-4 different armies (IG, Wolves, Tao, GK) The problem I ran into was in the GK vs IG game. My list is:

HQ:
220pt Grey Knight Grand Master: Incinerator, MC NFS, psychotroke, rad, blind grenades
175pts Librarian: Shrouding, Sanctuary, Warp Rift, Might of the Titans, Quicksilver

Elite:
220pts 6man Purifiers: 2xPsycannons, 3x Halbreds , MC Hammer; Rhino

Troop:
335pts 7man Terminators: Brotherhood Banner, 5x NF Swords, 1x Psycannon, MC Hammer
780pts (3x)10man GK Strike Squad: 2xPsycannon; Rhino

Heavy Support:
270pts 2x Dreadnought: 2x Twin-linked Autocannon’s, Psybolt Ammo


Total:
2000pts

The IG list roughly was:
CCS 4x Plasma Chimera

2x (10 man Platoon 3x Melta Chimera)

2x(2 Leman Russ demolishers squads)

Lemun Russ Punisher

Lemun Russ Vanquisher

2x (Vendetta with 10 man Platoon)

This is a rough memory of his list.

Now the problem here is I need to be in a sweet spot of 24" to do any damage and in the first turn his demolisher popped 2 of my 3 GK rhinos and pinned one unit and wipped the other unit off the board. While all I got done was popping one detta and stunning the other.

By second turn he had destroyed 2 full GKSS popped all of my rhinos pinned my last GKSS Rhino and killed one of my terminators. And I had done Nothing to him .....

The game proceeded on in this fashion until I was basically wiped form the board.

The question I ask is what can I do against an army that has a ton of Str10 large blasts every where? I tried closing the field gap and even using cover and smoking he was able to easily pop all my Rhinos..... there has to be a tactic here I am just not getting and I would appreciate advice in this manner. I mean I had Alpha strike and everything it was just pure pain in the fight.

[DarkLink]

Rule #1. Spread the f*#! out. His blasts should never hit more than a few models at a time. There is no reason that small blasts should ever hit more than one model except for a very lucky scatter, and there is no reason his large blasts should ever hit more than 3 PA guys or 1 Terminator. This may mean not trying to hide in Rhinos, because if he wrecks the Rhinos your guys have to disembark in a clump. This is why he's been able to whipe out whole squads at a time, it sounds like.

Rule #2. Your GM grants the Scout rule. Take advantage of it, both to get to the midfield more quickly and to outflank a unit or two. Don't automatically outflank, you might end up wanting as many boots on the ground immediately, but in the right circumstances it could win you the game.

After that, it's all target priority. The Psyrifle Dreads kill the vendettas then move on to either Russ side armor or Chimeras. On that note, deploy your dreads apart from each other so it will be more difficult for your opponent to avoid presenting side armor to either one or the other. Outflanking with a unit gives you a chance to mess with his Russes, but otherwise you just need to pour psycannon fire into them and rely on your ton of shots.


Beyond that you're on your own. Deployment will be vital, but it will depend on all sorts of variables like terrain layout, who has first turn, etc.


Oh, and make sure you're using enough terrain. You should be able to find cover saves for you dudes pretty easily if there's enough terrain.

[Denied]

These are all things I thought I was doing well enough aside from the Rhinos. Using my GM I applied scout to all three of the GKSS which he out scouted with his dettas to block my moving them as much as possible This resulted in only two being able to move diagonally across the board at 12"for the scout then they moved forward an additional 12" on my turn at his primary vehicle park only he successfully popped both and dropped his blast templates on the now exposed unit and I rolled terrible on my saves.

The entire Terminators where separated by 2" across the board as they marched towards him and they used terrain to their advantage the entire time.

The Rifle dreads immediately targeted dettas and killed one right off the bat only stunning the second one and they tried to pop that one second turn only to completely miss they were both separated and on second turn he killed one of them.

Then he had a field day because he had wiped out half my army at the bottom of turn two and spent the rest of his time picking off the remaining GKSS, Purifiers, and terminators. The other rifle dread shot constantly at the detta and only succeeded in stunning it every turn until the end of the game.


So the end all of this really comes down to against a Russ heavy IG build GK's are at a significant disadvantage due to their over all low number count. If the dice stack against you in a game against them its GG.

[Denied]

The only other thing I can think of in this set up is to choose to go second and hold everything in reserves then when I come on try to out flank him and hope my units don't come on tell like turn 3 or 4 (this was an Kill Point based mission) Then hope I can pop more of his units in a short game them he can of me and its GG.

[Iceman]

Someone had posted an article where they basically said, "What's the big deal about GK? They are still essentially Space Marines and can be killed the same way. There are just less of them."

I agree with that. It seems to me that small, elite armies have a difficult time against IG which are essentially a horde army but with lots of firepower. I suspect that GK would do better against a horde army that has to fight in assault.

So, I guess I don't have any great ideas other than going second. Just make sure you get the majority of your forces on the board at once. You can't afford to let your opponent pick them off piecemeal.

[DarkLink]

Buy a couple servoskulls and his vendettas won't be able to scout-block you.


Edit: Heck, you have a bunch of dudes with psycannons and a Librarian with Shrouding. Just get midfield and sit in cover and his high-AP stuff doesn't matter anymore. Then you just need to pick off the things that can kill you through weight of fire, which comes down to target priority.


In any shooting match, it comes down to three things: cover, engagement range and target priority. Take advantage of terrain to minimize incoming fire (particularly important because he can outshoot you, so once again you need to have an appropriate amount of cover on the table, including LOS blocking terrain). Get into the midfield and you'll be able to hit his units with yours easily, 24" range or no. If you get the opportunity, close the distance and get into CC, or outflank a unit to keep him looking over his shoulder. Then hammer the units that threaten you the most.


Beyond that, you might just need to change up your list a bit. It's not exactly the best GKs can do against IG or really even in general.

[SonicPara]

Rethink the Halberds. IG are mostly I3 so you don't need to spend the points on the Halberds. Instead, save those points and buy incinerators, psycannons, or hammers when you can.

[DarkLink]

He's only spending 6pts on Halberds, not much of a big change. Incinerators won't help, either. GKs already slaughter any exposed IG units they get within ~9" of.

[Denied]

Beyond that, you might just need to change up your list a bit. It's not exactly the best GKs can do against IG or really even in general.

I am curious what would be your choice list DarkLink you tend to be a strong voice in list balance and GK's in general I am honestly interested in what list you would play?

[DarkLink]

Against IG, I would consider dropping one of the HQ's (probably the GM, since in this case you're pretty much just spending 220pts to get the Grand Strategy), getting a third Psyrifle Dread, and bumping up the Terminators to 10 dudes. Then drop the Purifiers to just 5 with 2 psycannons, and you're left with a few points to spend on whatever. Probably a couple servo skulls on the Librarian. I've found I don't like buying both a Librarian and a GM in even 2000pt games. If I take a second HQ, it's an Inquisitor or Coteaz.

You get extra firepower from the psyrifle dread (honestly, I haven't written a list without 3 psyrifle dreads in a while), the only model you lose isn't helping you enough for his points in this particular case, and you've gained a few more durable models.


There's only so much GKs can do against Russes other than spread out a lot, take advantage of the Shrouding, kill the rest of the Guard army, and hopefully get close enough to assault or get side shots on the Russes eventually.

[Denied]

Against IG, I would consider dropping one of the HQ's (probably the GM, since in this case you're pretty much just spending 220pts to get the Grand Strategy), getting a third Psyrifle Dread, and bumping up the Terminators to 10 dudes. Then drop the Purifiers to just 5 with 2 psycannons, and you're left with a few points to spend on whatever. Probably a couple servo skulls on the Librarian. I've found I don't like buying both a Librarian and a GM in even 2000pt games. If I take a second HQ, it's an Inquisitor or Coteaz.

You get extra firepower from the psyrifle dread (honestly, I haven't written a list without 3 psyrifle dreads in a while), the only model you lose isn't helping you enough for his points in this particular case, and you've gained a few more durable models.


There's only so much GKs can do against Russes other than spread out a lot, take advantage of the Shrouding, kill the rest of the Guard army, and hopefully get close enough to assault or get side shots on the Russes eventually.


I see your point if I was tailoring a list specifically for IG, but in a tournament setting I need to still be versatile and the GM with psykotroke is a great tool to have against any CC army as he defend the line of Rhino's with squishy GKSS inside.

I have thought about dropping the Purifiers completely and beefing up the terminators or grabbing a third rifle dread....

[DarkLink]

I think that would be a good idea to try. I've had problems fitting Purifiers into my lists since I end up using all my points on Terminators or GKSS. Terminators are very good at both shooting and assaulting and are durable enough to justify their cost, while GKSS are very shooty, and cheap enough to justify their relative fragility. Purifiers, on the other hand, pay points to be better in both CC and for extra psycannons, but they don't have the increased durability to go along with it.

As for psyrifle dreads, I think that you almost need 3 in anything over 1500pts. With two, one can get blown up and the other stuck trying to kill one stupid vendetta, and you've lost your ability to reach out and touch someone. The extra redundancy of a third dread is kind of a tipping point at higher levels, and give you that extra edge and durability against enemy shooting.



So here would be my goal

Librarian...175
GM....220
10 Terminators, 2 psycannons, Brotherhood Banner...475
3x10 GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Rhinos...780
3 Psyrifle Dreads...405

That's 2055, so we need to cut a few things. First off, I would drop the Master Crafted and Incinerator from the GM. You're already nasty in CC between the 10 Terminators, Brotherhood Banner, Librarian and Grenades, and Incinerators aren't very good on footslogging dudes. 2045.

I would cut the Brotherhood Banner next. Psycannons are more important for GKTs, since you're already very good in CC. That's 2020. From there, I dunno, you might just have to drop the second psycannon on the Terminators. This is actually why I don't take a GM and a Librarian in 2000pts or less, as I feel they take up just a few too many points.

[Denied]

I think that would be a good idea to try. I've had problems fitting Purifiers into my lists since I end up using all my points on Terminators or GKSS. Terminators are very good at both shooting and assaulting and are durable enough to justify their cost, while GKSS are very shooty, and cheap enough to justify their relative fragility. Purifiers, on the other hand, pay points to be better in both CC and for extra psycannons, but they don't have the increased durability to go along with it.

As for psyrifle dreads, I think that you almost need 3 in anything over 1500pts. With two, one can get blown up and the other stuck trying to kill one stupid vendetta, and you've lost your ability to reach out and touch someone. The extra redundancy of a third dread is kind of a tipping point at higher levels, and give you that extra edge and durability against enemy shooting.



So here would be my goal

Librarian...175
GM....220
10 Terminators, 2 psycannons, Brotherhood Banner...475
3x10 GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Rhinos...780
3 Psyrifle Dreads...405

That's 2055, so we need to cut a few things. First off, I would drop the Master Crafted and Incinerator from the GM. You're already nasty in CC between the 10 Terminators, Brotherhood Banner, Librarian and Grenades, and Incinerators aren't very good on footslogging dudes. 2045.

I would cut the Brotherhood Banner next. Psycannons are more important for GKTs, since you're already very good in CC. That's 2020. From there, I dunno, you might just have to drop the second psycannon on the Terminators. This is actually why I don't take a GM and a Librarian in 2000pts or less, as I feel they take up just a few too many points.



yeah I completely agree with you about choosing Terminators and GKSS over purifiers... which hurts me on the inside because I just want to love them :-P

Thanks for the suggestions on the final build I think that's going to be the route I will go, even though I really don't want to drop the Brotherhood Banner because it is an extra model to use for allocating wounds to it will probably have to get dropped.... this will give me at least an effective CC terminator squad that will scar anything near it... the other option is just keep the squad at around 9 and this auto excludes the second Psycannon..... damn I need my codex I have the majority of it memorized but I don't want to say X costs Y and look like a fool, curses to being stuck at work atm!!!