Ghosthelm in 5th edition + other Farseer questions

[Arthfael]

Hi everyone, I have an issue with the way Ghosthelm (a 4th edition item) works in 5th edition. I have also added two other Farseer-related questions.

1/ The ghosthelm rules say that it saves from a perils of the warp (PotW) attack on a 3+. Can the Farseer try to pass his 4+ invul (that he needs to pass twice in a row) if the Ghosthelm "save" fails? The Ghosthelm is nowhere specifically stated to be an armor or invul "save" so it should not be subject to the "only one save of any kind allowed" rule, thus I would think that the eldar player may use the Ghosthelm and if it fails he may then try the double invul.
I tried to look at how PotW worked in 4th vs 5th ed for an answer, but it's not that obvious. In 4th, you suffered a Str 6 hit with no save of any kind allowed, so the Farseer would escape the PotW on a roll of 1 (probability: 1/6). In 5th, you suffer a wound automatically, but you may save it by passing twice in a row an invulnerable save if you have one (so for the Farseer 4+ then 4+ again, thus probability 1/4 , slightly but not much better than 1/6).

2/ If the invul save is allowed with a Ghosthelm, how does Fortune (reroll failed saves) work with it?
Let's assume the Farseer has failed his Ghosthelm save, he then goes for the invu. He rolls a 1, rerolls (Fortune) and passes, but he needs to reroll because this is PotW. If he fails again, does he get a fortune reroll once again?

3/ If while under the effect of Embolden (reroll failed Ld tests) a Farseer rolls a double 1, does he get to reroll? The eldar FAQ states that the Embolden power does include Farseer psychic tests, so they may reroll failed tests. However, what does "failed" mean for a psychic test? For a normal Ld test, failing would mean the result is above the Farseer's Ld, but this is a psychic test so does "failing" also include rolling a double 1 (or at least two 1s if the Farseer has Runes of Witnessing)?

[DrLove42]

Having not actually taken a Perils test on any of my farseers in 5th edition yet (which is pretty impressive when you think about it) I don't know about Ghosthelm. Personally I'd use that 3+ as the save you have to re-roll.

2) You never re-roll a re-roll. If you have something saying re-roll fails, and something else saying re-roll sucesfuls, you just roll once, and accept that result. The 2 cancel out

3) Yes. You save him from his physic test. It hasn't gone perfectly,. therefore it can be rerolled

[blackarmchair]

1) I'm not sure on this one. It would depend on wording. Does the Ghosthealm say that it gives you a 3+ save against the hit or does it negate the PoTW on a 3+? That would be the difference.

2) Yes, because you have to pass twice. You're not re-rolling a re-roll you're taking two tests each of which you must pass.

3) No as double 1's is a pass. It just ALSO triggers a PoTW.

[Wolfshade]

This is only from memory but:

1. I was going to say "You can only take one save against things, in the same way that you can't use cover and armour", but the wording of the Ghosthelm prevents the thing from occurring, rather than a save against it having occured. I would say you can use both, in a similar way you that space marine librarians can try and nullify a psychic power and if that doesn't work take an saves allowed against it.

2. I would have said "Fortune allows one save to be re-rolled, so if he fails the first roll, can use fortune to re-roll then because of PotW needs to roll again if that one is failed then he can't re-roll due to fortune." But. The BrB on page 2 states ""In some situation the rules allow you a "re-roll" of the dice...The second score counts, even it if means a worse result than the first, and no single dice can be re-rolled more than once regardless of the source of the re-roll.." so it would seem if you re-roll the first roll due to fortune you can't then be made to re-roll it because of PotW it would seem, similarly if you passed the first, re-rolled due to PotW you couldn't then re-roll that due to fortune...seems a little off to me

3. The test is passed as it is below the Ld of the caster so can't be re-rolled. :(

Those are my thoughts on it but would appreciate other peoples views

[blackarmchair]

I think you're right wolfshade, I take back what I said about #2. Since it's the same test you could only ever use fortune once...

[Wolfshade]

It just doesn't seem right though.

[chromedog]

Yes, you make the Ghosthelm roll. (it is NOT a save).
If you FAIL this, you can make your invul save roll - which you must re-roll if you pass.

With Fortune, you would roll your invul save, and pass or fail, reroll it (Fortune allows a re-roll on fail, Perils MUST re-roll passes). The second result is the one that stands (as with any re-roll).

eg. Eldrad rolls for Fortune. Eldrad rolls boxcars (can happen, even if his total roll is a '6,6,1' and his runes allow the discard of one '6', it still counts for perils, even though this result DOES result in the power going off, so he gets the 'failed saves' reroll). Therefore perils kicks in.
Roll for ghosthelm. Fail.
Roll invul save. On a 3+ (Eldrad has a better invul save than normal seers) it MUST be re-rolled due to perils.
On a 1-2, it gets re-rolled due to Fortune.
Roll the die. Ignore the result and roll again. The die only gets re-rolled once either way.

[Turgon]

"eg. Eldrad rolls for Fortune. Eldrad rolls boxcars (can happen, even if his total roll is a '6,6,1' and his runes allow the discard of one '6', it still counts for perils, even though this result DOES result in the power going off, so he gets the 'failed saves' reroll). Therefore perils kicks in."

Actually that is not true. The only way a farseer can suffer peril is on a roll of two 1s or three 6s.

Runes of Witnessing states very clearly that the highest roll is "discarded". The only time it is considered as part of the roll is if you have Runes of Witnessing fighting against Runes of Warding. Then you use the two lowest for the psychic test and all three dice for peril.

[Archon Charybdis]

1.) The ghosthelm is not an invuln save, it's just a special rule that prevents a perils on a 3+. If the perils still goes through, you can then take your normal invuln save.

2.) There's really no conflict here. You've got two abilities that are imposing two different effects, one allows you to re-roll failed saves, on forces you to re-roll succesful saves. You pass? Re-roll it. You fail? Re-roll it. Since you can never re-roll a re-roll, the second result stands no matter what, so for simplicity's sake (assuming your opponent understands whats going on), you can just roll it once.

3.) Unfortunately, a failed leadership/psychic test is only one that is over the model's leadership stat. A double 1 is a succesful psychic test, it just has the additional effect of causing PotW.

[Arthfael]

Ok, I would like to thank you all for your help. Having read all the replies, here's what I think we can agree on:
- Ghosthelm is NOT a save. The rule wording is that it "prevents" the PotW. Thus, if GH fails, the invul save applies but must be rerolled.
- Since the rule for PotW states that "successful saves must be rerolled", not that you are actually taking two saves, Fortune would only allow one reroll. However, as people have stated this contradicts the rulebook that states that only one reroll is ever allowed. Although usually the codices have precedence over the rulebook, I think we should rule for simplicity and decide that both rerolls cancel out. This is the kind of decision that GW has taken when different powers are in conflict (for instance, Runes of Witnessing against Shadow in the Warp).
- I agree that two rolls of 1 is not a failed Ld test but a passed Ld test that results in PotW, thus Embolden does not apply.

[thecactusman17]

Number 2 is a bit convoluted, but there is a simple flowchart method of determining what happens with a perils check:
Pass first save-->Yes-->forced second roll due to PotW-->abide by new roll, no further rolling allowed
|
-->No-->May reroll failed save-->abide by new roll, no further rolling allowed

In short, Fortune allows you to reroll an initial failed save, and even better prevents a second roll. But it has no positive effect when the first roll is successful.

In informal games, it may be expedient to just roll once, as ultimately you will reroll one time whether you pass or fail initially.

[Arthfael]

So basically we have two different rule interpretations that have the same result:
- A: both Fortune reroll and PotW reroll cancel out.
- B: reroll no matter whether the first roll is pass or fail => the first roll doesn't count.
Either way, the Farseer only rolls once.

[Wolfshade]

Not quite.
You should always roll two dice but only the second roll counts so some people would say why bother to roll two.

If you pass the first roll you need to re-roll this as per the Perils of the Warp forcing a re-roll.
If you fail the first roll you can re-roll this as per Fortune enabling a re-roll.

But since you can't re-roll a re-roll for any reason it is the second roll that counts.

[Arthfael]

Exactly. But because we are clever people we only roll the single dice that matters.