Sniper Scouts In Bolstered Ruin 2+ Cover Save?

[Fred_Scuttle]

Hello. An opponent of mine frequently uses a SM Thunder Cannon with a unit of SM Scouts in a ruined building.

We've been playing that the Scouts get a 2+ Cover Save because:

Ruin - 4+ CS Normal:)

Bolster Defense - 4 is now a 3 CS:(

Stealth USR From the Scouts Cloaks - 3 is now a 2+ CS.:eek:


I do not see anything that disallows this. Comments?

Fred

[DarkLink]

You are absolutely correct.

[SeattleDV8]

Hello. An opponent of mine frequently uses a SM Thunder Cannon with a unit of SM Scouts in a ruined building.

We've been playing that the Scouts get a 2+ Cover Save because:

Ruin - 4+ CS Normal:)

Bolster Defense - 4 is now a 3 CS:(

Stealth USR From the Scouts Cloaks - 3 is now a 2+ CS.:eek:


I do not see anything that disallows this. Comments?

Fred

The scouts have a 2+ cover save, correct.

[Farseer_Orso]

Until you slap them with a flamer.

[Squirrel_Fish]

Until you slap them with a flamer.

They still have a 2+ cover save. They just aren't allowed to take them against the wounds caused by the template weapon.

[I NoSe]

Until you slap them with a flamer.

This made me laugh.

[Wolfshade]

The real question is, does this make taking techmarines worth it?

[blackarmchair]

Techmarine? What's a Techmarine?

OH! I was confused because where I come from we call Techmarines "free kill points"

;)

[SonicPara]

The real question is, does this make taking techmarines worth it?

No, but it makes the Thunderfire Cannon worth it. Thunderfire Cannon + Telion Sniper Scouts combo is subtle but surgical; I never leave home without it.

[Wolfshade]

No, but it makes the Thunderfire Cannon worth it. Thunderfire Cannon + Telion Sniper Scouts combo is subtle but surgical; I never leave home without it.

But I run BA so no Thunderfire Cannon goodness for me :'(

[DrLove42]

Yep completly legal

Even more fun in an Eldar army...pathfinders in a building, and then fortune them....a 2+ re-rollable save. Lovely.

[dannyat2460]

But I run BA so no Thunderfire Cannon goodness for me :'(

I also run BA and if your taking sniper scouts the only ones that really benafit from this your doing something wrong I run 30 scouts with BP+CCW and they are brutal in BA give the SGT a Power fist and your laughing all the way to the bank dragging the remains of what ever just got in your way behind you

please note you really need priests to make this work

[Fred_Scuttle]

Ok, thanks guys. I was afraid there was noting we were doing wrong.

He's already met an outflanking unit of Hellhounds and also Scout Sentinels with Heavy Flamers.

The rule that you can only target one level up makes me cry, although I don't think he's read that yet as he doesn't put too may models on the upper levels....

Fred

[Wolfshade]

I also run BA and if your taking sniper scouts the only ones that really benafit from this your doing something wrong I run 30 scouts with BP+CCW and they are brutal in BA give the SGT a Power fist and your laughing all the way to the bank dragging the remains of what ever just got in your way behind you

please note you really need priests to make this work

I don't tend to run scouts at all, though am contemplating put a unit of snipers in. I regularly play 'nids so there is at I4 (+1 on the charge) they wouldn't tend to survive the I5/6/7 bugs/stealers. But the snipers roll to wound against high T creatures would be more beneficial

[Turner]

They still have a 2+ cover save. They just aren't allowed to take them against the wounds caused by the template weapon.


This is almost correct. It should be noted that wounds caused by a "flamer" template cannot be saved via cover. The wounds caused by the small and large blast template may be saved via cover. Obviously for both cases the whole "unless specifically stated" like say the Imperial Guard Colosses artillery piece, (which fires a str6 ap3 large blast template) specifically states in the codex that cover saves may not be taken against this weapon. I haven't found an instance yet in any codex in which the use of the flamer template specifically states that cover saves may be taken against this weapon. (It says in the Main Rule Book that whenever the flamer template is used, cover saves may not be taken. So to the best of my knowledge, as an example of a non-flamethrower model using the flamer template, the Imperial Guard "Banewolf" which fires a str1 ap3 using the flamer template which to fluff says it is a deadly poison that will melt flesh from bone and all this horrible stuff, you still can't take cover saves from it.)

[Fred_Scuttle]

Chaos Demon Princes with Breath Of Chaos are another 'anti' cover tool of mine.

Question on distance measuring: Is there anywhere in the BRB that states distances are always linear?

Why do I ask? Because the rules for the snow cone template say it can only be placed one level higher than a tank. But the Hellhound rules allow you to place the narrow end of the template within 12" of the tank barrel. I could go up many levels with a 12" climb.

Fred

[somerandomdude]

This is almost correct. It should be noted that wounds caused by a "flamer" template cannot be saved via cover. The wounds caused by the small and large blast template may be saved via cover.

Actually, he was completely correct. It is a common mistake to refer to the tools used for resolving blast weapons as templates, but they are actually called blast markers.

The only thing in the rules that is called a template is any weapon which uses the tear-drop marker (template).

[Dalren]

Of course if you have your own Thunderfire Cannon you can just blast the scouts with an Airburst Salvo. Goodbye cover save.

[Tynskel]

Of course if you have your own Thunderfire Cannon you can just blast the scouts with an Airburst Salvo. Goodbye cover save.

I believe they still get their 4+ save though... but 4 blasts could easily put out enough wounds to screw over the squad, anyhow.

[Thornblood]

So heres my thought; If there are no monstrous creatures in the opposing army- will the sniper scouts ever do their points worth of damage, or alternatively, be threatening enough to soak up lots of firepower to make them worth their points.

I mean Eldar rangers get a 2+ cover save somehow, but i dont ever really try to kill them, I only ever do if I have an assaulty unit in the area on the way to somewhere else, or if a unit has no other targets...

[dannyat2460]

I dont like sniper scouts anymore when they hit on 2+ they were great but now a 10 man squad can only cause 2 maybe 3 wounds a turn its just not good enough and against monstrous creatures where most of them have a 3+ save its rending hits that you need and they are just too rare coming off snipers now, if you are thinking about sniper squads you need about 4 squads of them to do anything to the enemy.

[Wolfshade]

Chaos Demon Princes with Breath Of Chaos are another 'anti' cover tool of mine.

Question on distance measuring: Is there anywhere in the BRB that states distances are always linear?

Why do I ask? Because the rules for the snow cone template say it can only be placed one level higher than a tank. But the Hellhound rules allow you to place the narrow end of the template within 12" of the tank barrel. I could go up many levels with a 12" climb.

Fred

I am not sure exactly what you mean my linear, but I hope this clarifies it.

Imagine you are on the ground floor and are firing at an enemy on the 3rd floor, you need to measure diagonally from where you are to the enemy to be within range.

So if you are 5" away if you were on the same level, but 12" below (or above) then on the diagonal would be 13" away so 12" range weapons would be out of range.

[Nabterayl]

Chaos Demon Princes with Breath Of Chaos are another 'anti' cover tool of mine.

Question on distance measuring: Is there anywhere in the BRB that states distances are always linear?

Why do I ask? Because the rules for the snow cone template say it can only be placed one level higher than a tank. But the Hellhound rules allow you to place the narrow end of the template within 12" of the tank barrel. I could go up many levels with a 12" climb.

Fred

I disagree with Wolfshade's interpretation. I don't see any indication that 40K cares about diagonal movement. If the Hellhound is on the ground level 5" away from its target on the x-axis of a grid whose x-axis runs parallel to the gaming table, then for range purposes I believe the Hellhound is only 5" away from its target, even if that target is 500" above the gaming surface (the odds that the Hellhound would be able to see a target 500" above the gaming surface are slim, of course, but I believe that's the correct rules interpretation).

That said, I see no reason why the Hellhound couldn't fire its inferno cannon at any level of a ruin, assuming the target is in range and visible. I think the 12" language would override the normal rules for template weapons.

[Fred_Scuttle]

I disagree with Wolfshade's interpretation. I don't see any indication that 40K cares about diagonal movement. If the Hellhound is on the ground level 5" away from its target on the x-axis of a grid whose x-axis runs parallel to the gaming table, then for range purposes I believe the Hellhound is only 5" away from its target, even if that target is 500" above the gaming surface (the odds that the Hellhound would be able to see a target 500" above the gaming surface are slim, of course, but I believe that's the correct rules interpretation).

That said, I see no reason why the Hellhound couldn't fire its inferno cannon at any level of a ruin, assuming the target is in range and visible. I think the 12" language would override the normal rules for template weapons.

This is the way we've been playing measuring, as if the pieces were paper cutouts on a flat table. The only place in the BRB where I see direction other than 'flat' on the table is up or down through ruin levels.

I'll talk to my group.....we gotta figure out if 12" hellhound can spray upper levels. Fingers crossed!!!

Fred

[Morgan Darkstar]

I disagree with Wolfshade's interpretation. I don't see any indication that 40K cares about diagonal movement. If the Hellhound is on the ground level 5" away from its target on the x-axis of a grid whose x-axis runs parallel to the gaming table, then for range purposes I believe the Hellhound is only 5" away from its target, even if that target is 500" above the gaming surface (the odds that the Hellhound would be able to see a target 500" above the gaming surface are slim, of course, but I believe that's the correct rules interpretation).

That said, I see no reason why the Hellhound couldn't fire its inferno cannon at any level of a ruin, assuming the target is in range and visible. I think the 12" language would override the normal rules for template weapons.

you measure from base to base weapon to hull etc thus automatically diagonal distance is taken into account.

[Nabterayl]

you measure from base to base weapon to hull etc thus automatically diagonal distance is taken into account.
Why, so you do. Thank you very much. Interestingly, I note that per page 92, this means that you have to be able to shoot all the way to a model's base - for instance, if you were 15" up and shooting straight down to a non-vehicle model that is 4" tall with a weapon that has a 12" range, you would be out of range, because the target's base is 15" away even though the nearest point on the target model itself is only 11" away. Fascinating.

[wkz]

The way I think hellhounds work is this: Flamedrop templates can be "thrown" by the Hellhound, so that aspect is kept and overrides the usual "one floor above or below" rule for templates. However, all templates on the declared floor can only affect that one floor as said in the standard rules for ruins, and cannot burn the models in any other floors except the floor being declared for burninating.

Thus, if you can "lift" your your template up to the 3rd floor before placing that template horizontally, you can burn things in the third floor... and only the third floor if you declared that is the floor you want to burn.

Also note that there are firing arcs to a tank. In page 59: "...In the rare cases when it matters, assume that (the tank's) guns can swivel vertically roughly by 45 degrees...". Approximately, this gives the Hellhound slightly more than 8" of height (8.485 to be precise)... which is about enough height to burn the third floor consistently if the tank is placed correctly.

(note that said floor heights are assuming the terrain is built using Cities of Death terrain, and assuming first floor=table itself. Thus 3rd floor is usually 6", and 4th floor is usually 9" above the table).

[Nabterayl]

Also note that there are firing arcs to a tank. In page 59: "...In the rare cases when it matters, assume that (the tank's) guns can swivel vertically roughly by 45 degrees...". Approximately, this gives the Hellhound slightly more than 8" of height (8.485 to be precise)... which is about enough height to burn the third floor consistently if the tank is placed correctly.
It also means, note, that it is possible for the Hellhound to be in range of a target in a ruin but unable to see the target to shoot at it. A Hellhound that was directly beneath an enemy unit on the third floor wouldn't be able to bring its inferno cannon to bear upon them, and thus would not be able to see the unit, and thus would not be able to target it, despite the fact that its inferno cannon was in range.

[wkz]

... which is about enough height to burn the third floor consistently if the tank is placed correctly...heh. Maybe I should have elaborated that.