the decline of 40k

[fuzzbuket]

hello
// WARNING big massive rant// this is bias and does go off topic to gk new dex hate -_-




sadly its true.
( but first a little about me)
i started playing 40k in 4rth ed. Through my eager eyes everything appeared new, different, new and exciting. all my eldars had rules and stats that were different to my friends tryanids, necrons and tau. then i started playing grey knights and blood angels. it was great. although it was just 2 power armored armies the blood angels (PDF dex) were fast and brutal and even though the lack of units each unit did its own cool thing. grey knights were fun to play with, always 2 S6 attacks per model and terminators that could mince the tyrnid heavies in minuets.

Now when Codex: space marines was released everyone loved it, some things ( xavier and chapter tactics/doctrines and nid vets) slipped quietly away also this was the first major start of swapping units around ( captain on bike, pedro) . then was Codex Imperial guard: more charecturful units (penal legion) vanished. .afterwards was the Space wolves: missing some charecturful units (wolfen) they were a good codex ruined by 1 or two things. Nids were just left feeling deflated, and underpowered. and after that was the blood angels: loaded with FOC shenanigans and 'hyper powered' characters. then came the Dark eldar: A bright spark, good quality models, fun rules and new sculpts. Then Grey knights. FOC shenanigans and blandness: iconic units missing, units renamed and a fun way of army mixing ( allies) gone.

Now what is the main problems that pop up

1) blandness. S4 now instead of the marines big strength is now apparently standard, whether it is the guards silly marbo's or grey knights power blades, s4 is now being handed out, where it used to be marines only.
FNP is everywhere and now most named FOC choices allow you to take one unit or another as a troops unit. this is bad for balance and 40k in general. if you want to play crowe leading the entire brotherhood of paladins on malan'ti that is fine. but having crowe as a paladin tax to have 1 or two paladins aided by JOKEaroos is silly. but look at his rules he is sadly underpowered due to the fact he makes paladins troops :(.
grey knights are possibly the worst example of genericification. S6 is now S4, IST's are gone, Daemonhosts are bland where they once used to be fun and the inclusion of ordos herticus and xenos is bizarre.

2) models.
dark eldar, space wolves and blood angels all did their models well. marines were ruined by some things (thunderfire!) but all the models were good.

but with new dynamic posing the grey knights terminators look good from a distance but, massive deformations on the legs and some other warpage comes simply for the pose, space hulk had a similar problem,and frankly id like static models rather than horribly bad CAD problems

3) lack of new useful content in WD and coedexes ( or even online)
IN wd there used to be army galleries, USEFUL tactics interesting battle reports and eavy metal tutorials, and even further back new rules. event coverage is at nil and the old painting and conversion guides that used to be in codex's is GONE.


4) removal of charecturful models
lets see
MARCHIUS (greatest imperial commander since the heresy), Penal legions, marine doctrines, tyrannic veterans (what made ultramarines less cookie cutter) , wulfen, 13th company, Teleport attack squads, Grey knight terminators HOLOCAUSt, Grey knights heroes, INQUISITORIAL Storm troopers, Familiars, orbital strikes, shall i continue?

5) rewritten fluff.
so when in the grey knight fluff (and books) the terminators use holocaust .. well umm.
most of the blood angels characters background. stern. every time inquristorial stromtroopers are mentioned in the fluff what happens? hey what about armageddon? 3 or 4 5th ed dexes have diffrent versions of it.

the problem:

GW is now a business. 40k is no longer GW's little fun project, with players who love to play it and are listened to by the company.

PP is not like this however in 10 years they will be the same :(


writing faq'S takes time , time = money so dont make interesting codex's that need FAq's just make them so bland they dont need FAQ'd .
Models? yeah do them in CAD and make them super pretty from 1 angle only! (try and find a rear shot of the GKT's on GW website)
Consumers? after 10+ years they dont buy as much as new blood that will buy a army instantly.
Clever businessmen who can make profit and not line their pockets whilst listening to the consumer.... no thanks well take kirby.D:< (there was a article on http://theback40k.blogspot.com/ tat showed kirby as the ((%(%&)(*&%(*)^&$ that he really is.)
hey lets take 25 mins to publish useful content in codex's and online... .NAAH lets just publish bulldung
grey knights allies.. pff make cheesy and unfluffy armies ( insert great sarcasm herE)



really i try to like GW but honestly it really gets hard sometimes... .i need to check with local GW people that i can still use codex DH :)

-fuzz

p.s. if anyone from GW read this not there are MANY people whom would like to have a say in what happens, play-test and submit articles for WD: sometimes astro-mag is better than your 'flagship magazine'
p.p.s make crons T5S5 with more focus about killing the lord, and eldar BS/WS5 to have less dreaded 4's
p.p.p.s does fantasy get the same bland ruels/statline treatment?
p.p.p.p.s we need to keep these unruly warseer folk out

[DarkLink]

I think the only thing I can agree with you is that WD sucks and that GW releases FAQs too slowly. Not that they're really obligated to do so as long as we keep paying, but it's annoying anyways.



grey knights were fun to play with, always 2 S6 attacks per model and terminators that could mince the tyrnid heavies in minuets.

Grey Knights still mince tyrnid heavies in minuets (whatever minuets means, anyways). Now instead of causing a half dozen wounds, you cause 1-2 and force weapon everything. Or hit it with rad grenades and go back to causing a half dozen wounds. And, of course, you're way better at every other aspect of the game now, so killing 'nidz before they assault is even easier than it was before.



Now when Codex: space marines was released everyone loved it, some things ( xavier and chapter tactics/doctrines and nid vets) slipped quietly away also this was the first major start of swapping units around ( captain on bike, pedro) . then was Codex Imperial guard: more charecturful units (penal legion) vanished. .afterwards was the Space wolves: missing some charecturful units (wolfen) they were a good codex ruined by 1 or two things. Nids were jsut left feeling deflated, and underpowered. and after that was the blood angels: loaded with FOC shenanigans and 'hyper powered' characters.

Wait, you mean they replaced crappy old rules with better new rules?



Then Grey knights. FOC shenanigans and blandness: iconic units missing, units renamed and a fun way of army mixing ( allies) gone.

Allies was broken and stupid anyways (see how I can turn your opinion that FOC swaps are stupid and turn it around?).

And what do you mean by 'iconic units missing'? The GK codex went from having literally 3 HQs and 4-5 units that were actually halfway decent to having 10+ HQs and 10+ solid unit choices.

And if you're whining about the Inquisition stuff, they never really belonged in 40k anyways. Go play Dark Heresy.



1) blandness. S4 now instead of the marines big strength is now apparently standard, whether it is the guards silly marbo's or grey knights power blades, s4 is now being handed out, where it used to be marines only.

So one guard character and -gasp- Marines are str 4?



FNP is everywhere

If by everywhere you mean in 1-2 units per codex, or in the case of DE on most units but you need to earn the upgrade in-game.



and now most named FOC choices allow you to take one unit or another as a troops untit. this is bad for balance and 40k in general.

How is it bad for balance? I'm pretty sure it's actually awesome for balance, because the variety of options it opens up means there is more variety in the type of available lists, which means that each codex has more and more options, which means that you're not forced to take 'that one single good list' that applied to every 3rd/4th ed codex but not to the 5th ed ones.



if you want to play crowe leading the entire brotherhood of paladins on malan'ti that is fine. but having crowe as a paladin tax to have 1 or two paladins aided by JOKEaroos is silly. but look at his rules he is sadly underpowered due to the fact he makes paladisn troops

Ummm... Driago makes Paladins troops. And Crowe makes Purifiers troops. Both of which are interesting and viable options for armylists, which, once again, is a good thing. More viable options=good. Less viable options = bad. Ergo, 5th ed codices = good, 3rd/4th ed codices=not so good.



grey knigts are possibly the worst example of genericification. S6 is now S4, IST's are gone, Daemonhosts are bland where they once used to be fun and the inclusion of ordos herticus and xenos is bizzare.

Str 6 is now FORCE WEAPONs, with 5 different options for various effecs that any unit can take with little restriction other than points. You want I6 GKs? Go ahead. Thunderhammers for everyone? Sure. Tons of attacks, better invulnerable saves, ridiculously good invulnerable save? Just spend the points.

And are you still complaining about the Inquisition stuff?



2) models.
dark eldar, space wolves and blood angels all did thier models well. marines were ruined by some things (thunderfire!) but all the models were good.

but with new dynamic posing the grey knights terminators look good from a distance but, massive deformations on the legs and some other warpage comes simply for the pose, space hulk had a similar problem,and frankly id like static models rather than horribly bad CAD problems

You think Space Marines look stupid because you don't like the thunderfire cannon? I'd hate to hear what you think about GKs because of the Dreadknight.



3) lack of new useful content in WD and coedexes ( or even online)
IN wd there used to be army galleries, USEFUL tactics intresting battle reports and eavy metal tutorials, and even further back new ruels. event coverage is at nil and the old painting and conversion guides that used to be in codex's is GONE.

Yeah, this sucks. Hopefully they do more stuff like the Warp Hunter.



4) removal of charecturful models
lets see
MARCHIUS (greatest imperial commander since the hersy), Penal legions, marine doctrines, trannic veterans (what made ultramarines less cookie cutter) , wulfen, 13th company, Teleport attack squads, Grey knight terminators HOLOCAUSt, Grey knights heroes, INQUISITORIAL Storm troopers, Familiars, orbital strikes, shall i continue?

Penal Legions are still in the codex. Chapter Tactics is a far more balanced system than the old Marine doctrines, for effectively the same effect. Sternguard are 'nid veterans. Wulfen are now available in pretty much every units in the SW codex, and with an ounce of creativity it's easy to make the 13th company. GKs not only still have teleport attack squads, but those squads are infinitely better. Same with Terminators, despite the partial loss of one (crappy) psychic power. Which Paladins still have.

Grey Knight Heroes are now significantly better in every conceivable way. Warrior Acolytes are also much better than ISTs, and the new henchmen squads are far better than the old rules. Orbital strikes used to suck, and now they... ok, they still kinda suck, but they suck less now. Shall I continue?



5) rewitten fluff.

So?



GW is now a buisness. 40k is no longer GW's little fun project, with players who love to play it and are listend to by the company.


This is news to you?



Consumers? arfter 10+ years they dont buy as much as new blood that will buy a army instantly.

Any numbers to back this up?



Clever buisnessmen who can make profit and not line thier pockets whilst listening to the consumer

Ok, there are so many things wrong with this statement that I don't even... screw it.

Businesses do not 'steal' peoples money, as you seem to think. Businesses drive the economy. If there were no 'clever buisnessmen' (it's spelled business, btw), we would all still be hunterers and gatherers wearing animal skins and clubbing each other on the head with... well, clubs.

Because GW offers you goods, and you agree to pay for said goods, GW can employ a certain number of people. These people can then go and buy food and goods for their families, and spend money in other places that circulate the money which indirectly comes back around to pay you for whatever job you work at.

So unless GW is sending people to mug you in a back ally, you really don't have any room to complain.



i need to check with local GW people that i can still ues codex DH :)


Even if you did think you could use it, why would you want to? The loss of fearless is mildly annoying, but the new codex is far, far better in virtually every possible way.

[Gotthammer]

Dude, I started with Rogue Trader, loved 2nd Ed... then along came 3rd - there's a decline worth writing about ;)

Take the loss of models/characters/gear, blandness and changes to the background now and times it by 1000.
The issues you mentioned with the models is a problem to do with plastics, no matter who makes them, and there's nothing that can be done about the occasional modeling oddity. Beats having a dozen dudes all in the same pose.

And now I'm buying more gear than I ever have.

[TheBitzBarn]

I totally have to say you seem to be in decline because of a perceived issue or something the business is Great more players than ever and I have to say they have increased new codex's 2fold I was playing in 3rd and if they released 2 codex's a year that was average in 2002 and 2003. No we get 4 or 5 in a 12 month period and MUCH better models.

I have to say that I think you have it wrong and PP has SERIOUS Supply issues and they are doing all that GW is accused 150pt games 80 dollar models smaller than a Baneblade with Half the detail.

It is GW's Fluff so they can rewrite and you have only been in the game since 4th so hard to see a deep historical perspective. No offense. That Idea that 10+ years and you spend less is an Old GW powerpoint slide they use to say that 1st year consumer spend x dollars and 2nd year drops off by 10% and so on losing 10% a year and when I asked them about the numbers, like where did they come from they admitted they made it up

Yes White Dwarf is not as good but they still pimp the LOTR and that hurts and I miss the Chapter Approved. They need MUCH better Public relations.

Seems to e a generational issue with Business like business is EVIL and steals form people because Tylenol is evil and so is SC Johnson and all their cleaning products and heaven forbid is a guy makes a new thing that helps people and makes a buck along they way GOOD for him

[wittdooley]

I totally have to say you seem to be in decline because of a perceived issue or something the business is Great more players than ever and I have to say they have increased new codex's 2fold I was playing in 3rd and if they released 2 codex's a year that was average in 2002 and 2003. No we get 4 or 5 in a 12 month period and MUCH better models.

I have to say that I think you have it wrong and PP has SERIOUS Supply issues and they are doing all that GW is accused 150pt games 80 dollar models smaller than a Baneblade with Half the detail

Touche. I think I have to sacrafice my first born to get a Gatorman Posse.

[Cyberscape7]

Addmitedley I've only been playing since 4th edition so I don't have as wide a view on how much the hobby has been changed but the changes that have happened so far I find quite good. Maybe there have been a few muck ups on fluff and rules in the past, but thats to be expected- after all if the rules and fluff were made perfect there wouldnt be any need for new editions of the rules. All I can say is, change happens- adapt or change hobbies;)

[fuzzbuket]

@ darklink
i prefered the old GK dex ( old true grit, old holocaust, old models, old IST's), and this might have turned into a rant about that that covered the original intent, that GW has seemed to be making 40k more bland, kirby isnt too good http://thewarmastersrevenge.blogspot.com/2011/04/styleheight-390px-width-640px-namemovie.html
and 40k is steadily declineing,and that probably is due to a lot of the staff leaving ( aka ward has done 3/7 of the 5th ed dex's) and lack of support. ( i still remember the old GW site, and GW's astronomican hasnt been updated since march)

oh about the T/F cannon it is that it was a pain to build it is a fantastic model but impossible to stick together.

and having other units unlock units as troops, it reverts to the old problem. i read somewhere that when making 5th ed GW made troops scoring because people used to have thier troops choices as the bare minimus, splurgeing on the elite/heavy choices that could score (in 4rth ed) . sadly if most units become troops with a HQ tax, well that defeats the point of that mechnic. sometimes it is good, but for most of the stuff its true place is in narrative battles.

and thankyou: Gotthammer TheBitzBarn wittdooley and Cyberscape7 for your input , the OP will now have a 'warning rant ahead' attached :P

[DarkLink]

That's an awesome hitler montage, even if the jokes old by now.


The problem with min-maxing is more that troops units sucked. Why ever take more than the minimum tactical Marines when you could have all sorts of awesome units instead. Now, because scoring is restricted to certain models, inferior units with scoring suddenly are worth taking. But more importantly, now the new codices are balanced such that the available troop choices (including those availabe via special characters) are actually good enough to take, so that you're not stuck with a minimum of 2 crappy units and then the rest of your army.


And I love the new GKs. Losing Fearless is mildly annoying, but we're just trading having bad leadership in CC but good in shooting for bad at shooting and good in CC. But literally everything about the GKs is better in every way, losing str 6 and such or not. Sure, GKSS are worse in CC now. But overall the army is far, far, far more competitive. The unit choices are far better, and you're not stuck into one or two builds if you want to have a chance of winning.

And, hey, Inquisitors are actually good. They used to suck, now there are a half dozen different viable ways of taking them. So what if you have to take Coteaz if you want a pure I army?

[Lord Castellan]

The issue is you started in 4th. So did I so I know what the problem is.

This is the first time you're seeing Codexes turn around. In fact armies that you have been playing for however long are suddenly getting updates and you dont like the change, but the game has been changing since the start and you are only just now noticing because you havent been around long enough to notice it before. Trust me, I hate the GK codex too, I feel like they used to be unique and special and are now little more than another SM chapter (which they arent supposed to be in fluff) with a bunch of ridiculous rules with no basis, but I accept it because its all a part of the game. Things change as time goes on, Veterans have been dealing with this forever. Its why you dont see them *****ing, change is nothing new.

And dude, you are far too new to the hobby to get teary eyed about how GW 'used to be'. You dont know. Not saying I do either, but you damn well dont.

[TheBitzBarn]

For my 2 cents I am GLAD AS hell Kirby took over North America. The old guy sucked and he has Streamlined the operation and all things here are better IMOA

[Kovnik Obama]

I have to say that I think you have it wrong and PP has SERIOUS Supply issues and they are doing all that GW is accused 150pt games 80 dollar models smaller than a Baneblade with Half the detail.



LOL WHAT??? Doing everything GW is accused off? Like letting profit margin dictate edition renewal, rather then rule bloat? Or discontinuing choices? Or selling starter kits that CANNOT BE LEGALLY FIELDED, or have no competitivity whatsoever? Or not taking the players opinion in the balance in the rules design?

Supply issues are currently related to 2 units in the game ; Khador Bombardiers, and Destors, and we know Destors are incoming.

Also, maybe you'd like to clarify that "150 pts games models smaller than a Baneblade with Half the Detail". 150 pts what? Battle Engines are in the 8-10 pts range, and can be fielded in ANY list. There's actually no point restriction whatsoever in Warmachine&Hordes, so if you see a unit, you can field it in your army, regardless of the game size. And all Engines are taller than the baneblades.

inb4 fanboy

[Gir]

LOL WHAT??? Doing everything GW is accused off? Like letting profit margin dictate edition renewal, rather then rule bloat?

It's almost like GW is a business.



Or discontinuing choices?

Such as?



Or selling starter kits that CANNOT BE LEGALLY FIELDED,

Black reach seem pretty legal to me.


or have no competitivity whatsoever?

Are you talking about the rules, or the products are a whole? Because if it's rules, they're not designed to be competitive, and if it products, GW make and sell all they're own stuff, making it impossible to be competitive with anyone.


Or not taking the players opinion in the balance in the rules design?

So? It's GW's IP. They can do what they want with it.


and can be fielded in ANY list. There's actually no point restriction whatsoever in Warmachine&Hordes, so if you see a unit, you can field it in your army, regardless of the game size.

Same as 40k then.

[scadugenga]

Black reach seem pretty legal to me.


Unless Terminators are somehow troops choices in the SM dex, (they aren't) then no, it's not legal. You have 1 HQ, 2 Elites, and 1 Troop choice in the AoBR box for Marines. And no, you cannot split the Marine Tac squad into 2 five man units, as you cannot upgrade a Tac squad of less than 10 with any special/heavy weapons. And you have no option to build the flamer/missile launcher as a standard bolter marine.


@Kovnik Obama: Just ignore BitzBarn, he's an anti-PP troll who loves turning away potential customers with his online attitude.

[DarkLink]

I never knew that the starter kits were marketed as complete armies. I thought they were just a really good deal that you could start with then buy another couple units to have an army:rolleyes:.

[Kovnik Obama]

It's almost like GW is a business.
[...]
So? It's GW's IP. They can do what they want with it.



Correction, they are a publicly traded company. Thats entails a lot of responsabilities to a third party (the investors) which can be contrary to the gamer's interest (basically, his money). PP is privatly owned by its creators. Anyway, GW could still be a decent publicly traded company if they changed their edition format, and that's where PP beat them hands down. With PP, I can buy ONE book and play up to 6 factions, each with more "HQ", unit, specialist and vehicules than any codexes have (do the count), for about 8 years, until they update the rules to deal with the inevitable bloat. THAT is why PP business model is TEN BILLION TIMES better than GW.

And Yes they can do whatever they want with it... But I will judge them accordingly too... Its just that saying that PP and GW have the same business model, is just ignorant. And the relation PP keeps with its player base, like by having open beta of the games, is just one of the best example of that.



Are you talking about the rules, or the products are a whole? Because if it's rules, they're not designed to be competitive, and if it products, GW make and sell all they're own stuff, making it impossible to be competitive with anyone.

I'm saying that different battleforce boxes have VERY variable strength. My Battleforce Nids have not a single frakking chance agaisnt the Marines Battleforce. And yes, I expect being able to take the game to a higher competitive level, or its a badly designed game.


Same as 40k then.

You gotta be playing dumb. Ever fielded a Titan in a legal 1000 point battle?

[Kovnik Obama]

Such as?

Ever heard of Dogs of War?

[Mazelf]

well all I can say is I would have respected your opinion a little more if you had actually taken five minutes to review your grammar/spelling

[Gir]

Correction, they are a publicly traded company. Thats entails a lot of responsabilities to a third party (the investors) which can be contrary to the gamer's interest (basically, his money). PP is privatly owned by its creators. Anyway, GW could still be a decent publicly traded company if they changed their edition format, and that's where PP beat them hands down. With PP, I can buy ONE book and play up to 6 factions, each with more "HQ", unit, specialist and vehicules than any codexes have (do the count), for about 8 years, until they update the rules to deal with the inevitable bloat. THAT is why PP business model is TEN BILLION TIMES better than GW.

And Yes they can do whatever they want with it... But I will judge them accordingly too... Its just that saying that PP and GW have the same business model, is just ignorant. And the relation PP keeps with its player base, like by having open beta of the games, is just one of the best example of that.

GW Net revenue: 60 million pounds (~100,000,000 US)
PP net revenue: $4million to $5million(estimates)

Yeah, GW's sucks at this buisness thing compared to PP.


I'm saying that different battleforce boxes have VERY variable strength. My Battleforce Nids have not a single frakking chance agaisnt the Marines Battleforce. And yes, I expect being able to take the game to a higher competitive level, or its a badly designed game.

Battleforces are a package deal, meant to give the basics of an army. They are NOT meant to be tournament level armies.


You gotta be playing dumb. Ever fielded a Titan in a legal 1000 point battle?

Yep. Was awesome fun.


Ever heard of Dogs of War?

Sorry, I don't listen to hip-hop.

[Kovnik Obama]

Wow...

Not only your playing dumb, but your a liar.

Bad troll.

[wittdooley]

THAT is why PP business model is TEN BILLION TIMES better than GW.



Yeah, the total revenue brought in by GW, Black Library, and their royalties from THQ and Fantasy Flight would seem to indicate otherwise.

I like Privateer. But comparing them to GW in any way business-wise is ignorant.

I'm still waiting for Privateer's first novel to be released.

EDIT:

Further, if you REALLY want to talk about Citadel minis going OOP... Come on now. Citadel has been producing minis for about 3x as long as Privateer has been in existence. And lets not begin to discuss the atrocities that are the original Hordes beast models (get your green stuff out boys!).

[Kovnik Obama]

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.

HOW IS IT NOT CLEAR THAT I WAS REFERRING TO THE EDITION UPDATE FORMAT???

I NEVER SAID GW WAS LESS PROFITABLE THAN PP : I SAID ITS A PUBLICLY TRADED COMPANY' OF COURSE ITS GONNA BE MORE PROFITABLE.

and I'm not sayiong anything about the models being OOP, I'm saying ARMIES ARE DISCONTINUED, and CHOICES ARE DISCONTINUED.

[Gir]

Wow...

Not only your playing dumb, but your a liar.

Bad troll.

I don't care about fantasy, and I have literally never heard of Dog's of War.


and I'm not sayiong anything about the models being OOP, I'm saying ARMIES ARE DISCONTINUED, and CHOICES ARE DISCONTINUED.

That last army to be discontinued (for 40k at least) was squats. Many many many many decades ago.

I'm also interested in how many 40k choices have been dropped, as I can't think of anything stand out.

[Kovnik Obama]

Dog's of War were a mercenary-themed army which was discontinued in, what, 2002-3? With the Chaos Dwarf thats 2 armies for fantasy, 3 in total. Since we where discussing GW's business practices, i didn't stop myself at mentionning Fantasy.

40k choices that were discontinued ; just look at all the Heroes that are dropped from one codex to the other. IG heavy weapon platform that changes base format. Its not that many choices, mind you, and it's not as terrible as loosing you entire army, like Dog's of War or Chaos Dwarf. But it's still ****ty practices, when you think this is all a hobby. And more than anything, its not necessary. PP prooved it ; every single choices ever to come out is still 100% supported, without any edition lag.

GW doesn't discontinue choices every other day (thank god). But when I see an option, with some rules, and that I decide that I want to buy that option, I feel raped when I later discover that I payed money for something I can't use anymore. And no, "count as" isn't the same thing.

[rocdocta]

sure GW may make a bit of money. but they have an unethical business model that is more akin to a cigarrette company than a hobby company. ie keep people on a tread wheel of addiction. lets face it, what bigger group of OCD people are there than gamers?! :D

All the rules get changed not for the betterment of the game, but to sell different things.

It is like a skewed Natural selection. the selling games are kept and the good but less selling games are discarded and never seen again. it may really shock some people that 15 years ago systems like:
BFG, Epic, Gorkamorka, Necromunda etc were not just stocked in some sort of Indiana Jones Warehouse but actively promoted! Now its just 40k and fantasy. and dumbed down versions of both.

do you remember when in 40k:
- all armies had different movement rates so the stat meant something?!
- terrain blocked LOS so it could be used tactically
- FNP was not a game wide crutch that was rare
- Fearless was a rare unit rule
- when there wasnt the blandness of universal rules. Each army felt unique and not boxed into the same pigeon hole... "oh you play necrons..so they are plague marines with some kind of save?
- when tanks lived in fear of glancing and transports were rare?
- when there were 2 damage tables! this allowed more results! but must have been thought too hard for some to grasp and was condensed into that rubbish 1 table.
- when there were data sheets per vehicle with multiple damage entries for turrets, tracks, hull, etc. Much more detail.

ie mech 40k is a prime example. for the points of 2 marines that cost the player about $10, they can sell a rhino that costs a player $50 or $60. They are just value adding their own product to sell more high cost models.

I have played since 94 so have seen all the game cycles. Always cracks me up to see people defending GWs business model until the day they realise that they too are stuck with obsolete or redundant old models and are forced to buy the next big thing...

In the quest to remove "wasted" profit by supporting other games, is the GWs product line destined to condense into 1 single product with 1 single phase? flip a coin to see who wins... sarcasm i know...but it may only be a matter of time...

[fuzzbuket]

@rocdocta

that sounds rather fun!
--
for discontinued units see

tryannic war vets
LORd Solar marchius
inquisitor lords
familiars
sages
Inquisitorial stormtroops
Inquisitor Land raider
chaplin xavier
... and few more

--

[Gotthammer]

I feel raped when I later discover that I payed money for something I can't use anymore.

I seriously doubt the feelings are similar.




It is like a skewed Natural selection. the selling games are kept and the good but less selling games are discarded and never seen again.

That's not some evil GW business pratice - it's common sense. Go into your local supermarket, find a product you've never bought, and nobody ever seems to buy. In time it will disappear from the shelves. Even if some people buy it in your local area, it doesn't mean it's popular everywhere.
The company will look at sales as a whole vs how much money they could potentially make using the shelf space to stock something they'll sell more of / have a higher profit margin on.



do you remember when in 40k:

- Took four or more hours to play?
- Terrain was based on True Line of Sight (it has been in three out of five editions!)?
- You would randomise equipment on a D100 chart?
- Vehicles had crew who could escape the wreck and continue to fight?
- There were six vehicle damage tables?
- Nobody had vehicles because GW didn't make any?
- The robot program system that was impossible to make work?



Always cracks me up to see people defending GWs business model until the day they realise that they too are stuck with obsolete or redundant old models and are forced to buy the next big thing...


I've got so much obsolete stuff I can't use anymore in official rules (marine jetbikes, various spec weapons, robots etc). My solution? Put them on a display shelf and if I feel like using them write my own rules for them, counts as them, or play an older edition. No need to spend more money if you don't want to.

[Gir]

I feel raped when I later discover that I payed money for something I can't use anymore. And no, "count as" isn't the same thing.

Yeah, it sure does suck when you try to use your own rules (or the old rules) for your model and GW kicks down your door and beats you with night-sticks until you promise to never use that model again.

[murrburger]

Gotthammer pretty much the nail on the head. But there's something I'd like to add to that.



tryannic war vets
LORd Solar marchius
inquisitor lords
familiars
sages
Inquisitorial stormtroops
Inquisitor Land raider
chaplin xavier
... and few more


Really. Sternguard are pretty much the same damn thing.

Are you kidding? I don't think he belongs in 40K as a character anymore. He can easily be used as noraml IG character, anyways.

Inquisitor Lords? I don't really remember there being an Inquisitor Lord model. They can easily be used as a normal Inquisitor, anyways.

Why not just model a Familiar on the base of your Inquisitor/Librarian/whatever. Sure, it doesn't do anything, but it'll look cool. (I love the models, myself)

Sages can be used as something like a mystic, or servitor. The henchmen have a lot of flexibility.

This argument again? If you want to play an Inquisitorial Warband, either play Guard, or get used to the fact that Henchmen make perfect Storm Troopers. It's not that big of a leap.

Also silly. What's stopping you from using a normal GK land raider?|

Chaplain Xavier? Are people still mad about that? A character that came out in a campaign list? I miss Chaplain Xavier about as much as I miss Cadian Shock Troopers (I don't).

If there's anything destroying 40K, it's a lack of imagination. On the part of the players, not just GW. What is stopping you from building a Salamanders army that doesn't need special rules (even Vulkan) to make itself different? Eldar players complained when they lost the Seer Council, but, you know what? You can make an Ulthwe army out of the vanilla list, and some imagination!

The same goes for Chaos. Do you need 4 heavy support, bassies and vindicators (which they have now) for Iron Warriors, or do you need normal Chaos marines, with normal rules, an appropriate paint scheme and maybe some fluff you wrote?

I really detest the back-of-the-book armies, and I'll glad to see them die. But, on the flip side of thing if you think something is too much a a stretch, what's stopping you from sitting down with your friends, and making your own, fair, balanced army list for something completely original? BoLS used to do it.

[scadugenga]

I don't care about fantasy, and I have literally never heard of Dog's of War.



That last army to be discontinued (for 40k at least) was squats. Many many many many decades ago.

I'm also interested in how many 40k choices have been dropped, as I can't think of anything stand out.

So....1998 was "many many many many decades ago?"

:rolleyes:

[Xanadu]

Wow, I didn't think people with this kind of views had discovered the BoLS Lounge, merely staying isolated to the comment lulz, insulting anyone with a different opinion to themselves, challenging something new and different (like competitive 40K) or beating on poor Goatboy.

Firstly I want to paraphrase a modicum of sensibility I saw in the endless BoLs comment lulz last week (whilst insulting Goatboy none-the-less):

'Just because it is the Internet, it doesn't mean you can piss in the wind and ignore good grammar and spelling.'

People should learn to adapt to changes between books and be happy that things *have* changed for the better (I'd prefer a new book akin to the GK-scale rewrite for my Eldar rather than the copy-paste that we're stuck with at the moment - try it, it really sucks).

Seriously, you're moaning about some small changes to your previously decrepit codex and things that have changed for the better across the board in this book. Good lord knows how much you'd moan if it had been Cruddace rewriting your codex. ISTs are Henchmen, get it? GK Land Raiders = Inquisitorial Land Raiders.

With regards to the incorporation of FNP into most of the newer codexes, this represents the whole:

'But why can't I have the shiny, Jemima over there has it as does Pauline, but not me...?'-viewpoint. If some dexes had it and others didn't people would moan way more than you do here. I bet you wouldn't moan if you could get more Apothecaries than you could shake a stick at in your dex... Hold on! BA get Sanguinary Priests everywhere...

I understand that you are bitter about the loss of strength 6 to S4, but I'd be much happier with force weapons regardless of a decrease in my guys Strength. ;). ID is greater than 1 wound in my book.

Characters swapping the FoC around makes fluffier armies possible (making fluff-nuts happier = more likely to shower), the whole:

'I want an army of über-doodz' thing is possible, but due to point costs, with respect to the capabilities of the other 5th Ed codexes *is* balanced.

E.g. A Draigo-wing army has around 25 dudes who will fall over to massed lasguns/shuriken/splinters - proof is in the pudding. 40K is gradually becoming more balanced whether you acknowledge it or not, and thus more suitable for a competitive play style.

With regards to your second point about models, you can still get hold of older sculpts if needs be, so stop moaning about some problems that only affect one of the plastic kits. AFAIK the PAGKs are a good set of models with no real problems, and detailing that would make an older Forgeworld kit jealous... GW's recent track record with plastic kits has been fantastic, I challenge you to find anything wrong with the new DE sculpts other than they don't show enough body on the females for you to touch yourself to.

A few closing pictures:

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/197886/beached-whale.jpg*
http://www.thefashionablehousewife.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/swan_stuck_ice.jpg**

@Kovnik Obama

You are one angry little man who I have no time for. Begone.

@Taak

Love you man. :)

*Obvious Fail here
**Yes the swan is stuck

[FirstLegion]

Let's keep it civil...

[Utsujin]

Posting a picture of my mother, beached is not very nice. She has bad knees you know!

[Sister Rosette Soulknyt]

Auretious Taak: seriously did you get kicked off Warseer and decide to join here?? take a pill, chill a little and be a lSo's your face, but we can't really discuss that here.
Be a lot more respectful ok. No one likes a loud mouthed cursing troll on here.
Be more polite and some of us actually may like you. Your off to a bad start with your language and tone.

So's your face, but we can't really discuss that here.
Great way to start by insulting someone you don't even know and has a lot more respect here than a troll looking for his name.
Finally Auretious Taak stop being a spelling **** on your first post, Don't like the fact go be a school teacher.
I have played also since 2nd ed. And with many of the changes it's either progress or it's for easier rules. Do you really want to play a 2,000 point game that takes an hour or more per players turn with every rule?
GW streamlined the game for quick games targeting younger teens as they have gullible parents willing to buy them anything to shut them up over the holidays.

For all older players here that actually have lots of old miniatures that are redundant, well GW doesn't care, they want you to go out with your hard earned money and buy all the new editions, new SC's and new codex's. Why? well there a business that's why.
Just like the new Iphones, it's new, shiny, got apps, and it does this and that, so buy it because everyone else is. That's what GW does.
Look new BA, or GK codex with all new shiny precious thingys, you have to buy it.....

So, look if you don't like the way GW does business, find a new hobby. Its called pregress. Do you think GW is going to NOT make more miniatures, codex's or upgrades? Then they may as well close the doors and sell up. They have to make money....

Finally

[Skragger]

GW Net revenue: 60 million pounds (~100,000,000 US)
PP net revenue: $4million to $5million(estimates) .

Actually, that one I beg to differ with. My GW rep for the store confirmed GW posted a profit of $24-30,000,000 USD in 2010. Not sure where you're getting 60,000,000 Pound Sterling from. (and 60M pounds is closer to 150,000,000 US. Even CAD is doing better than the us dollar)

(Quote from my GW Rep in an E-mail correspondance: "Last year Games Workshop did $24M in sales. 30% of those sales came from Ranges 2 and 3.")

[eldargal]

Actually GW has revenue of just under one hundred and thirty million pounds now, from memory, with around eighteen million pounds profit. I don't recall the exact figures and I can't be bothered checking, but its in the latest financial report which is available on GWs website (google games workshop financial reports).

The last I heard PP had a total revenue of around five million USD which is, what, three million pounds?

So to put it in perspective, GW could offer PP five times what their company is worth without going into debt if they felt it was a threat and wanted to turn it into a subsidiary. Just making the point, not saying for a moment GW would do this or PP would accept.

As to 40k, I've been playing since 2nd, and I've played some RT with my brothers, and I think 5th is the best edition to date. Others may not, subjective matters are, you know, subjective. Funny that.:rolleyes:

[Ghost of War]

You all are missing the real reason for the decline of 40k.

It just plain and simple costs alot more than it used to cost. And it leads to this scenerio

Vets are generally older and are playing
Kids cant afford to get into the hobby as much since the costs rise, sure some can but the ratios slide..
With less kids into the hobby, that less eventual vets.. the current vets play less.. kids.. family etc etc..

The kids are the core of whats going on here.. rules be damned... codexes be damned.. ALL of that is gravy on the real problem. The hobby is becomming more and more expensive and its discouraging the new blood from joining and thusly growing the hobby.

I realize there are kids who can afford it.. they go mow lawns, their parents are rich etc etc... but those are a smaller sampling of the overall potential future player base.

The game is becomming something older guys play every now and then.

Unfortunately.

-GoW

[Skragger]

You all are missing the real reason for the decline of 40k.

It just plain and simple costs alot more than it used to cost. And it leads to this scenerio

Vets are generally older and are playing
Kids cant afford to get into the hobby as much since the costs rise, sure some can but the ratios slide..
With less kids into the hobby, that less eventual vets.. the current vets play less.. kids.. family etc etc..

The kids are the core of whats going on here.. rules be damned... codexes be damned.. ALL of that is gravy on the real problem. The hobby is becomming more and more expensive and its discouraging the new blood from joining and thusly growing the hobby.

I realize there are kids who can afford it.. they go mow lawns, their parents are rich etc etc... but those are a smaller sampling of the overall potential future player base.

The game is becomming something older guys play every now and then.

Unfortunately.

-GoW


You've smashed it right on the head my friend! That is perfectly right. One of the things I've discussed quite a bit with my GW rep is veteran vs new players. She states, and I agree, new gamers are the make and break of the business. A veteran will walk in and say "I need 1 drop pod for my army" drop $40 and walk out. A new player will roll in and say "I need an army" and drop a few hundred bucks. With the continuing price increase, getting those new, younger gamers is much more difficult.

Why would a kid drop $40 on one boxed set of 5-10 models, plus paints, glue, brushes, etc, when they can drop $4 on a new pack of magic cards?

The starter sets aren't nearly as good as they used to be either it seems, so saying "well, we've got this cool boxed set that contains everything you and your friend need to play. As long as you like playing Marines and Orks, and you don't mind splitting $100 cost for just the models and a puny rulebook and no "read dis first guide" like they used to. "

They need "army starter sets" cheap boxed set that have a HQ and maybe 1 troop choice, or maybe just 250 points worth of units that sells for maybe $40-$50, comes with a mini rulebook. Plan it so they're competative with eachother so Timmy and Johnny buy them they can a) get the armies they think are cool, and still have equal troops to get started and play fair. Then if they don't like the game they're not down a years worth of allowance, and if they like the game, they've already got an almost legal army (just add 1 troop and you're off to the races).

[wittdooley]

They need "army starter sets" cheap boxed set that have a HQ and maybe 1 troop choice, or maybe just 250 points worth of units that sells for maybe $40-$50, comes with a mini rulebook. Plan it so they're competative with eachother so Timmy and Johnny buy them they can a) get the armies they think are cool, and still have equal troops to get started and play fair. Then if they don't like the game they're not down a years worth of allowance, and if they like the game, they've already got an almost legal army (just add 1 troop and you're off to the races).

While I LOOOOOOOOOVE this idea, do you have any idea how hard it would be to get a balanced 250 point box across the board? I'm thinking it would be tough considering how different some troop choices can be. I'd love to see some folks toss out potential 250 point box ideas.

And yes, complaining about models that "no longer have rules" is silly. Any of those models you listed could be used as something else in your army quite easily.

[fuzzbuket]

just got the insta-follow email

im supriesd at taak.

i had a thought and a slight rant, now react as you will, contribute, post helpful insight, or just say my rant is ***: they all are good and it encourages thought and may cause people to think about the history of GW, taak was funny, claming to be a vet, whilst making obvious mistakes ( wulfen =/= mark of wulfen and lord solar marchius. ) as well as the fun insults.

it actually made me laugh some of the more fun quotes im in blu :D
So's your face, but we can't really discuss that here. ( wait has he seen me? do people stalk me cause i have a blog? or is he a regular stalker?)


TRANNIC VETERANS? I didn't know there were transexual veterans in 40k. ahh my SCIImpaster sig is 'hi im a bad speller: i may have to put that here too

I don't know what Kirby you're talking about COUGH head of GW COUGH

No idea if my swearing will be auto censored, but if not, man up and swear properly not hide behind a chunk of garbled symbols. If you're gonna rage, rage in such a way that you get warned or banned, because hey, you suck *** otherwise (not that you don't already). : yes i am ragin soo much look at all my anger, unlike you :P

HEY LETS TAKE 2 MINUTES TO RESPOND TO THIS LOAD OF HORSE **** BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BE ARSED ****ING SPELL CHECKING WHAT YOU ARE RANTING THE **** ABOUT AND SO PEOPLE WHO DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH AS THEIR PRIMARY LANGUAGE DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE GOING ON ABOUT OR YOU KNOW, *****ING AND GRIPING ABOUT THE FLUFF WHEN YOUC AN'T EVEN GET THAT THE **** RIGHT?!?>@!

IT'S MARCHARIUS, LORD SOLAR, TO BE PRECISE! yes lord solar marchius, youve finially named him: woah i cant spell a fictisious name, can someone direct this chap to the dune fourms

TYRANNIC WAR VETERANS, TO BE PRECISE, AND HEY THEY WERE REPLACED WITH STERNGUARD, WHICH WORK REALLY WELL WITH THE BACKGROUND ALREADY BUT HEY YOU IGNORED THAT AND ALL THE ASSOCIATED THINGS BECAUSE LOOK THEY CHANGED THE NAME!
yes but tyrannic war vets were Ultras only and were fairly un cookie cutter, itd be like replaceing sang guard with vanguards with stormbolters and power weapons

MARK OF THE WULFEN EXSIST SO TOO DO WULFEN, LEARN YOUR CODEX RULES AND BACKGROUND BEFORE RANTING TO PEOPLE WHO JUST READ THIS AND GO FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
mark of wulfen =/= wulfen

THIS PLACE AUTO-SPELL CHECKS, WHY THE **** DID YOU NOT USE THIS? MAYBE THEN PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BOTHERED READING MORE THEN JUST THE FIRST POST. no, see here swearing isnt manly, it is infact rather childish, i used to swear a LOT IRL and have been trying to cut down, being a positive influence is a good thing if you venture outside oh and i view fourms as a convorsation, you read the first post and then a few more
good to see some constructive criticism
*HELLO BIGRED, LAUGHED AT ANY WOMEN WHO MISCARRIAGED LATELY oh your nice, im sure you wont get banned, have you ever met bigred or me? if not dont insult us. thankyou

Auretious Taak.
-fuzzbuket

but thanks to this chaps constructive criticism i will spell check :)

( oh this is the 2nd creep who has attacked me on BOLS a few months back i had some person trying to 'date' me aka steal emails, personal information, pedo me (they were at least 20 yrs older than me))


oh and ghosts of war that was very helpful and interesting, ive not looked at it that way before!
and @ xanadu
is the swan/whale okay i like swans and whales :D

[fuzzbuket]

While I LOOOOOOOOOVE this idea, do you have any idea how hard it would be to get a balanced 250 point box across the board? I'm thinking it would be tough considering how different some troop choices can be. I'd love to see some folks toss out potential 250 point box ideas.

And yes, complaining about models that "no longer have rules" is silly. Any of those models you listed could be used as something else in your army quite easily.

250pts

for 2 troops not hard but throw in that HQ and it starts to get tricky, orks and IG would have lots of stuff whilst grey knights or space marines would have only about 10-20 dudesmen :P

[UltramarineFan]

Basically Fuzzbucket I agree with nothing you say and everything DarkLink says.. sorry but for the most part it just sounds like whining to me, nothing concrete and mostly just your own opinion, opinion which I find quite peculiar for the most part. The one complaint I've seen from you which gets me every time is the 'oh no! my GK are only S4! Die Matt Ward, I hate you, you've ruined my army! :(' I exaggerate of course but you get the idea, seriously, GK are at S4, so what?? They now get force weapons and depending on which type of force weapon they choose can have +1 to their invun save, +1 attack, +2 I, a 2+ invun or a thunder hammer! How is that not 100 times better? Plus they have their psychic potential so can use Hammerhand to become S5! Sorry but I don't see the validity in any of your arguments in this thread.

[fuzzbuket]

@ ultramarinefan

dude thats okay, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, i guess im just being a stubborn nostalgic git :P

[wittdooley]

By the way... Does anyone feel like our relatively friendly, troll-free forum has become increasingly infested with trollish behaviour since the Warseer outtage? Lots of people with really low post counts seem to be popping up and tossing their douchebaggery around.

250 Blood Angels--

5 man Assault Squad 100
1 Sanguinary priest 50
5 Death Company 100

Total Model Count 11

250 Nids--

10 Termagaunts -- 50
10 Genestealers -- 140
10 Gargoyle - 60

Total Model Count 30

250 Dark Eldar--

10 Wyches - 100
10 Warriors - 90
1 Archon - 60

Total Model Count 21

250 Grey Knights --

10 man Strike Squad - 200
1 Paladin - 55

Total Model Count 11

These are the only Dexes I have availble right now, but as you can see, there are some big discrepancies. I tried to keep each 250 point box so that they retained the unique flavor of the army (hence Sanguinary Priest, Death Company with BA) while maximizing the product you get. The Dark Eldar one is the only box out of the 4 with an HQ slot; personally I think it'd be better served to NOT include an HQ with any of the boxes, so you could swap the Archon with either a Succubus for +5 points, or a Homonculus for -5 points. I don't know enough about the army to make a better judgement.

At 250 points, it is going to be IMPOSSIBLE for any MEQ codex to get more than 20 models. I think that's okay, but it is certainly something of note.

With the Grey Knights, you could very easily do a mixed Inq/Grey Knights Box that would fill out a bit more depending on load out, looking like this:

GK/Inq 250

5 Man - GK SS 100
Ordo Malleu Inq in Termi Armour - 65
Retinue w/
Crusader 15
Mystic 10
Banisher w/ Eviscerator - 30
4 Boltgun Acolytes - 20
MM Servitor - 10

Total Model Count 14

[Skragger]

I'm noticing that too. Or people arguing over things that really don't need to be argued over (here's looking at you "how do they load tank shells into a tank" - where a moderator needed to step in and cause a Turnover.

Nice work with the 250 point starter armies! Nice to see you like my idea!

Lets see.. for Orks.. Im working off the top of my head for point values so don't hold me to it!

Warboss
'Eavy Armour
'Uge Choppa

12 shoota boyz

12 Choppa/slugga boyz

and maybe a Copta if it'll fit, or a trukk.

[Cherub]

There is a simple problem to the people that dont like games workshop and think they are going downhill. Go play warmachine. Seriously. Ive been hearing the same things from people for the last 15 years, guess who is still around.
/looks around

Oh looks its GW, imagine my suprise.

No one is forcing you to buy models and play. And if your going to sit around and whine about it so much, please for the sake of us all go play warmachine since you seem to love PP so much.

btw dogs of war, squats and chaos dwarfs all sucked as armies and yes I have played them and Im glad they are gone. Should Gw decide to bring them back as armies at least with the new quality of writing and models they will be decent armies.

ALL HAIL MATT WARD KING OF THE CODEX the boy does a damn good job of writing a codex and depsite your whining and crying the codexs he has written have been VAST improvments over the last ones.

[Count Fenring]

Its just the ebb and flow of things. I have not really played since 2003. Starting this week, I am playing 40k more.

People can often be prone to drama, if this is their hobby, drama follows.

[Ghost of War]

There is a simple problem to the people that dont like games workshop and think they are going downhill. Go play warmachine. Seriously. Ive been hearing the same things from people for the last 15 years, guess who is still around.
/looks around

Oh looks its GW, imagine my suprise.

No one is forcing you to buy models and play. And if your going to sit around and whine about it so much, please for the sake of us all go play warmachine since you seem to love PP so much.

btw dogs of war, squats and chaos dwarfs all sucked as armies and yes I have played them and Im glad they are gone. Should Gw decide to bring them back as armies at least with the new quality of writing and models they will be decent armies.

ALL HAIL MATT WARD KING OF THE CODEX the boy does a damn good job of writing a codex and depsite your whining and crying the codexs he has written have been VAST improvments over the last ones.

Nobody is debating that they are still around.. nor that the doom and gloom has been around for 15 years.. and look who is still here blah blah blah..

I think the absolute point is the communities are shrinking lately around ... at least MY metro... because kids cant afford to get into the game. So its the same 4 vets every week looking for a game...

Few years back? You know when Liths were like 45 bucks? There were like 20 people at the shop grinding it out.

Kids simply cant afford to buy into this game in its current state... rich kids maybe .. but the majority of kids? Heck no.

And prices are only going up. Its going to end up like Golf sooner or later (money on sooner). Only old men with money will end up playing it.. sad part is... there are no groomed and maintained 40k courses with hot drink girls driving golf carts around out there...

Hmmm possible idea ... brewing!

[wittdooley]

because kids cant afford to get into the game. So its the same 4 vets every week looking for a game...
Kids simply cant afford to buy into this game in its current state... rich kids maybe .. but the majority of kids? Heck no.


See.. I think that's wrong. I think the majority of kids are just dropping their disposable income on Video Games and Cell Phones.

[Skragger]

See.. I think that's wrong. I think the majority of kids are just dropping their disposable income on Video Games and Cell Phones.

Man.. I know when I have a choice between sinking $60 into Call of Duty and get yelled obscenities at by a 12 year old, or buy a Drop Pod and enjoy the stigmata that comes with being a nerd, I know what I'm going to pick. But then again, I'm strange like that.

Hobbies like WH40K take a certain personality type. It takes time and patience to paint and assemble, and time and patience to play a match. Whereas you can pick up an Xbox controller and GET ADRENALINE WHILE YOU INGEST POWERTHIRST LIKE ITS WATER!

I know all the kids I know, besides my two other hobbying buddies think warhammer is "too slow to be fun" and "they're toy soldiers" <- like they're some tin soldiers from the 1800s, and have no place in our modern world with our espresso and 97G networks and buffering.

[Cherub]

Nobody is debating that they are still around.. nor that the doom and gloom has been around for 15 years.. and look who is still here blah blah blah..

I think the absolute point is the communities are shrinking lately around ... at least MY metro... because kids cant afford to get into the game. So its the same 4 vets every week looking for a game...

Few years back? You know when Liths were like 45 bucks? There were like 20 people at the shop grinding it out.

Kids simply cant afford to buy into this game in its current state... rich kids maybe .. but the majority of kids? Heck no.

And prices are only going up. Its going to end up like Golf sooner or later (money on sooner). Only old men with money will end up playing it.. sad part is... there are no groomed and maintained 40k courses with hot drink girls driving golf carts around out there...

Hmmm possible idea ... brewing!

Id play 40k golf lol

Im canadian liths where never $45, they are and always have been expensive. Untill the last year or so its always been or at least seemed to be that our models have been double the cost of the american ones. At least now the prices are closer but still way more expensive.

Im sorry about your metro ares, Ill trade you mine where all there is at GW is 12-14 year olds and all the vets are gone else where. Though at least being a vet, and in that vet crowd we have the private gaming space where we can do pretty much what ever we want. Thats the best part of being an adult with a disposible income and gaming with other adults with disposbile incomes. ( at least imho anyway...well other than getting in trouble with my parents for having "adult relations" in thier house, now i just get "i have a headache")

If you want kids to game the best way to do that is to set up a club at a school and play 1k games. At 1k its cheap to get into the hobby, and hey if eveyone at your school is doing it.....You just have to find people willing to run school clubs. It takes awhile to get started but once you have it up and running its a great way to get kids into the hobby and everyone knows you cant stop at just 1k worth of models. One of the largest problems with the gamer crowd is that a large portion of people think the only way you can play is at 2k points. There is nothing wrong with playing smaller games or even combat patrol (go battle missions) And anyone that has played battle missions with a timer (speed it up for more tension) will tell you it goes pretty fast and you can play lots of adrenaline packed games. If things arnt working in your area change it up, even if you and your buddies have to do it yourselves.

[Gotthammer]

By the way... Does anyone feel like our relatively friendly, troll-free forum has become increasingly infested with trollish behaviour since the Warseer outtage? Lots of people with really low post counts seem to be popping up and tossing their douchebaggery around.



I'm noticing that too. Or people arguing over things that really don't need to be argued over (here's looking at you "how do they load tank shells into a tank" - where a moderator needed to step in and cause a Turnover.


I was tempted to make a thread on The Decline of the BoLS Lounge after reading page two of this thread, but in the end I really couldn't be bothered.

[Skragger]

Why can't we all get along? What is is about this hobby that is so divisive? We all enjoy playing, we all enjoy the modelling and reading the fluff. Why do we dissolve into a charade worse than the House of Commons when some minor point of dispute comes up?

Its not hard to just post a simple, logical argument stating your positon. You don't have to start calling the other poster a ****-***who ****s the **** with *** and ***************by the railway tracks at mightnight *** or *** and *** camel.

We'll all grown ups here. With the exception of those who aren't. Lets behave and set an example!

[DarkLink]

dude thats okay, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion, i guess im just being a stubborn nostalgic git :P

Nah, it's cool. I just read too much Friday Internet Fight Night (http://bloodofkittens.com/dickmove/).

[Ghost of War]

Why can't we all get along? What is is about this hobby that is so divisive? We all enjoy playing, we all enjoy the modelling and reading the fluff. Why do we dissolve into a charade worse than the House of Commons when some minor point of dispute comes up?

Its not hard to just post a simple, logical argument stating your positon. You don't have to start calling the other poster a ****-***who ****s the **** with *** and ***************by the railway tracks at mightnight *** or *** and *** camel.

We'll all grown ups here. With the exception of those who aren't. Lets behave and set an example!

Well....

Its a game primarily dominated by men... who by their very nature are competitve. You mix in ART.. which is subjective, add a splash of fluff and those that value it at different levels, then the common style of nerd that plays this (usually socially ... special!) and you get whiney competitive guys who paint crap and take less showers than usual. That need to get along long enough to bash eachother over the head with their man dollies, while retaining a certain ammount of sportsmanship so they can get repeat games...

What does this make? InterwebZ - Nerdrage.

[bfmusashi]

And if you're whining about the Inquisition stuff, they never really belonged in 40k anyways. Go play Dark Heresy.

Nay good sir, the Inquisition has too much history to back out now. They have always been in 40k and shall always remain!

[Duke]

Nobody expects the BoLS inquisition... Thread closed.

Duke