Cover Sanity Check

[henrythesecond]

Hi guys, I just need a quick sanity check on the rules for cover saves.

Consider the attached piccie.

This is the shot I had with my vindi at a squad of Space Marines. The range was around 20",
the shot hit directly, so no scatter.

The terrain piece you see in the mid-ground is a GW smashed Aquila piece and it was determined
during setup that it was not on of the pieces of Area Terrain, so the normal rules from the BRB
and TLOS are in effect.

As can be determined from the piccie, the terrain in no way provides LOS coverage to the
squad from the perspective of the Vindi, so I took the view that the squad did not benefit
from any Cover Save from the Aquila.

The issue arose, however, when my opponent claimed that as my LOS crossed over the
Aquila, he squad received a 4+ Cover Save. This was despite him freely conceding it wasn't
area terrain. He said it was how the cover / terrain rules worked and that was how it was
played in several tourneys he'd played in too.

I've got to be honest, I was taken aback. So much so that I need you guys to confirm for me
that I'm reading the rules right and I'm not totally insane.

Looking forward to getting some opinions on this one.

Regards.

[Gir]

I would say no cover save if it wasn't area terrain, and a 6+ if it was (That's how my group plays clear aera terrain)

[BlackKnight15624]

...they're in the open. If there's no TLOS-blocking and no area terrain that they're standing in or even across from (though standing on the other side of area terrain doesn't give you a cover save, either, IIRC), there is no reason to deny the vindicator it's full killing potential. That is, a group of dead space marines and a lesson learned from your opponent..

[DrLove42]

Agreed with Gir here...if its not area terrain it has no effect. The line of sight from the gun barrell to the targeted models is not blocked in any way, confering no cover save any other way either.

If it was declared area, then yes he'd have a 4+ save according to the BRB (maddeningly) but as Gir says a house rule for a diminished save is a better idea

[gcsmith]

Actually black knight the rules state if a shot goes through 2" of area terrain the unit being shot gets cover, so if it was area he would but it isnt so wont.

[Archon Charybdis]

Actually black knight the rules state if a shot goes through 2" of area terrain the unit being shot gets cover, so if it was area he would but it isnt so wont.

Actually that's incorrect, and that's a mistake I see people make a lot. A firing unit that is inside area terrain itself, firing out through more than 2'' of terrain, will confer a cover save. If the firing unit is itself out in the open, and just shooting through area terrain, the target unit only gets cover if they are actually between LOS blocking elements of the terrain (like trees or large rocks.) If the terrain is low/small enough that it doesn't actually obscure the target unit, it doesn't confer a save. Check out the bullet points "Firing through units or area terrain" and "Firing out of area terrain" on pg. 22.

So to the OP's question, even if the aquila piece were counted as area terrain, it still wouldn't confer a cover save because the target unit isn't between being shot between gaps in the terrain.

[DarkLink]

You do not get cover saves from firing over terrain. You get cover saves from firing through terrain. In this case, you are shooting over terrain, thus no cover saves.

[Nungunz]

I see 5 models that have no part of their body obscured (Aquila blocks 100% line-of-site to a few models and the building blocks 100% line-of-sight to one).

If it was a 10-man squad or larger then they would get a cover save. Considering the terrain is buildings and rubble, it would be a 4+ save.

Remember if even a tiny sliver of the body is obscured, the model counts as being in cover. IE if at least half of the squad has LOS to just their toes blocked, then the entire squad would get a cover save. Stupid rules, but them's the breaks.

[Tynskel]

Looks like a 5+ cover save to me.

[Nungunz]

Looks like a 5+ cover save to me.

I'd settle for that as well.

[henrythesecond]

Nope, the left hand 3 guys (from the Vindi's perspective) had their shins covered, nobody else was obscured in any way. The large building on the right obscured no part of any model belonging to the squad.

To be honest, the actual positioning of / obscuring of these specific models wasn't especially key to our disagreement on the evening, it was the fact that non-area terrain somehow provided a cover save if LOS was traced over it, regardless of whether it was tall enough to oscure models or not.

Thanks for all the replies though guys, I feel a little better...

[Tynskel]

the photo shot is not from the gun, so the next best thing is a 5+

[Culven]

. . . it was the fact that non-area terrain somehow provided a cover save if LOS was traced over it, regardless of whether it was tall enough to oscure models or not.
This is not a fact, even if your opponent claimed as such. Tracing LOS over a model, unit, or terrain does not grant a Cover Save. The LOS must pass through a Unit or terrain piece to grant a Cover Save. Just because your opponent had played it incorrectly in past tournaments doesn't mean that it is the way it should be played.

[Tynskel]

This is why it is important to define your terrain before you start your game.

There have been plenty of games that I have been apart of where the 'area terrain' functions similarly to 4th Edition, granting a cover save, even though there's LOS.

The interpretation of terrain from game to game changes.

[Paul]

The interpretation of terrain from game to game changes.

Which is another reason the 5th edition "simplification" is balls.

[henrythesecond]

the photo shot is not from the gun, so the next best thing is a 5+

Nope, the phote is a mock-up of the shot during the battle. As I've said, the 3 left-most guys had their shins obscured, no other model from the unit was obscured in any way. The photo is for visual explanation only, it's the mechanics of the cover save rules I needed re-confirming.


This is not a fact, even if your opponent claimed as such. Tracing LOS over a model, unit, or terrain does not grant a Cover Save. The LOS must pass through a Unit or terrain piece to grant a Cover Save. Just because your opponent had played it incorrectly in past tournaments doesn't mean that it is the way it should be played.

Cheers Culven, that's EXACTLY what I thought, what I'd always played and what I wanted to hear! :)


This is why it is important to define your terrain before you start your game.

There have been plenty of games that I have been apart of where the 'area terrain' functions similarly to 4th Edition, granting a cover save, even though there's LOS.

The interpretation of terrain from game to game changes.

I agree Tynskel, and we did exactly that. Several pieces of area terrain were identified and the rules for the couple of 'unusual' pieces were agreed upon. However, if an opponent has a different understanding of how to play a fundamental rule in the game, you can't really legislate for that beforehand if you're unaware of it.

Anyway, this one is about done to death now. Thanks for all the replies guys. As ever, I appreciate all opinions honestly given.

Cheers.

[Tynskel]

you keep telling me 'no' but what I am telling you is that all I can see from your photo is a 5+ cover save.

The point is, you can only make decision based upon the visual information.

And, it is possible that is what your opponent was arguing.

[henrythesecond]

you keep telling me 'no' but what I am telling you is that all I can see from your photo is a 5+ cover save.

The point is, you can only make decision based upon the visual information.

And, it is possible that is what your opponent was arguing.

Tynskel, I've stated what my opponent was arguing earlier.

I've also stated what exactly what the shot looked like in the original game, looking right down the Vindi's barrel. My opponent fully agreed with what could be seen and what couldn't. His argument was not based upon TLOS obscurement providing a cover save to models, it was the effect the terrain piece had on Lines of Sight crossing over it, even though it doesn't obscure models. This has all been stated previously.

I fully accept your opinion about what can and can't be seen in the piccie I've included, and what cover save that may or may not grant. But it isn't really the crux of the argument, I only included the piccie for context purposes to show the position of the intervening terrain.

Hope this clarifies things for you.

[TheRise]

The rules state 50% or more of the unit must be in cover to gain a cover save.
That unit is in direct LOS and definitely not 50% is in cover. Therefore there is no cover save at all. unless he had gone to ground or was in area terrain blast weapons wouldn't allow cover saves anyway.

[henrythesecond]

Dudes, this topic really has been answered fully. Thanks for all your replies.

If you feel you really, absolutely, would-die-without-it, must add another post to the bottom of this thread, please read the whole thread first before stating something already covered.

Cheers.