Master crafting GK justicar weapons - what's the point?

[plawolf]

Something I have noticed a lot recently is how lots of people are suggesting you should get a MC daemonhammer for justicars, especially for GKSS and Interceptors, and even more inexplicably sometimes for Termies, Paladins and purifiers.

Now, a Str10 thunder hammer is well worth it for 10pts (GKSS, interceptors). I can well get behind that idea, and with the justicar the only guy with a base 2A, he is obviously the guy to give it to. However, with the brotherhood of psykers rule killing the justicar the first time the squad takes perils hit, is master crafting for 1 reroll worth 5pts? For another 5pts, you can give another guy a hammer and that's a guaranteed attack, possibly 2 if you charged. What more, this second guy cannot be picked out, so you will only ever loose the hammer if you are very unlucky. Seems to me if you can find the points to master craft the hammer, you might as well go all the way and get another hammer instead.

On Termies, Purifiers and Paladin squads, were every guy has base 2A, there is no way you should ever put anything you have to spend points on on the Justicar/keeper of the flame. Since you gain no benefit for doing it, but run the risk of loosing whatever you bought for the Justicar ever time you use a power.

That's just my thinking, what does everyone else think? Am I missing something, or is all these MC suggestions just the equivalent of people going bonkers when a sale is on and buying stuff they don't need just because its a 'bargin'?

[Sisiutl]

I think you are over emphasizing the danger posed by perils of the warp and the frequency you are going to be losing that justicar to it. I give my terminator justicars the hammer so they can master craft it. I feel the one reroll is more crucial if you wiff on hitting a vehicle you need to kill.

[Mr.Pickelz]

For me personally, that re-roll has led to some amazing kills as my terminators carry the banner, so 4 attacks on the charge and auto force weapon. And it's nice for the pesky one that always sneaks in there.

[DarkLink]

You will likely only need to use hammerhand two or three time per game, and of those you only have a 1/18 chance of getting Perils. That's a Perils maybe one in six games or so.

More importantly, I've found that I like to run characters with my CC units. The characters cast hammerhand, so there's no danger to my dudes. A Xenos Inquisitor with hammerhand and grenades will make a GK unit kill virtually anything.

[Lerra]

A lot of armies have ways to increase the risk of Perils, though. Most notably Eldar and other Grey Knights. Imo, the best way to deal with GK units is to kill the Justicar and then tank-shock or otherwise cause them to fail their Ld8 and run away.

[Sinistermind]

im in the group that puts mastercrafted hammers on there justicar, it really helps, IMHO the benefits far outway the chance of losing him...

..on a second note im using a stormraven in my 2k tournament list coming up in may, i fully expect to face at least one other grey knight and i HOPE he uses his justicars for his hammers,because it will be soo funny when i shoot 2 diff units with stormraven mindstrike missiles(?) using power of the machine spirit and pop goes the justicars plus any actualy S4 blast damage so long as they dont scatter >4"

[iamnothere]

It depends on the squad, I'm an advocate of MC'd HALBERD instead - that I6 IC killer can do wonders.

[plawolf]

For me personally, that re-roll has led to some amazing kills as my terminators carry the banner, so 4 attacks on the charge and auto force weapon. And it's nice for the pesky one that always sneaks in there.

But of if forked out another 5pts, you could have a second hammer with 3A on the charge instead of a single re-roll, which you may not get anyways if he hits every time but wiffs on the damage chart or to wound roll.

To me, that just seems more bang for your points than a single re-roll that may not even happen at all.

[plawolf]

I think you are over emphasizing the danger posed by perils of the warp and the frequency you are going to be losing that justicar to it. I give my terminator justicars the hammer so they can master craft it. I feel the one reroll is more crucial if you wiff on hitting a vehicle you need to kill.

Applying that logic, isn't it more important to have a guaranteed extra 1 hammer attack minimum instead of a reroll that might not happen for such crucial assaults?

Also, isn't it more crucial to have a hammer to swing in the first place than have your hammer guy go 'poof' because of perils just when you needed that hammer the most?

[plawolf]

It depends on the squad, I'm an advocate of MC'd HALBERD instead - that I6 IC killer can do wonders.

On any squad where you have to pay extra to take halberts, you can have another halbert for the price of master crafting one. If anything, that is a more convincing case of where you are better off getting another weapon instead of master crafting.

[DarkLink]

A lot of armies have ways to increase the risk of Perils, though. Most notably Eldar and other Grey Knights.

You don't really need Hammerhand or Force Weapons against eldar, though. You're already going to do lots of damage offensively, it's more a matter of who gets to hit first.

And GKs only have psychic hoods and the Aegis, neither of which influence Perils.

[Xas]

I see the logic and tbh I'd not get anything on troop GK anyways.

justicars can be perrilled (at least in the young metagame I'm actively looking at GK stormravens) and the other guys have 1A and force weapons (to instagib charackters) to start with anyways (and krak nades vs vehicles so not THAT needed). Walkers are prolly the only reason you would take hammers on them.

the reason why people take it? because it is an upgrade that appears to be the most bang for your buck if you dont consider downsides. mastercrafting roughly equals +1A and you only pay half the points of buying a hammer for another dude. this explanation doesnt make it smart though.

the other (smarter) reason is that it is very cheap so if you have a handfull of points left and allready bought all the equipment for your HQ you can as well mastercraft a weapon or two (and for that is usually has to be on a squad leader). the point still stands that instead of mastercrafting 2 hammers you could buy one more for one of your squads (and with that you are drawing near psybolt ammo which I see as more usefull on troop guys as the squad would need to be quite big to make hammers worth it to start with).


on paladins however the MC weapons are for wound allocation mostly and not the rerolls (same as combi-weapons on orknobs).






And GKs only have psychic hoods and the Aegis, neither of which influence Perils.

but some stuff that can auto-perril you.

[DarkLink]

Oh, right, well you can't really defend against that anyways so...

In the game I just played, a Daemonhammer on my squad saved it from Mephiston. He was running around in my backfield, and I had a 10-man GKSS unit in a Rhino I kept back to keep him in check. With psykout grenades he couldn't afford to get close enough to let me assault. He gambled and went for the squad (there wasn't much else back there, everything was headed for his deployment zone), and his missile devs blew up the Rhino. Mephiston won the first round of combat, but was killed in the second round.

With my objective secure, and his contested, I won thanks to the Daemonhammer:).

[negativezach]

However, with the brotherhood of psykers rule killing the justicar the first time the squad takes perils hit, is master crafting for 1 reroll worth 5pts? ...
...That's just my thinking, what does everyone else think? Am I missing something, or is all these MC suggestions just the equivalent of people going bonkers when a sale is on and buying stuff they don't need just because its a 'bargin'?


While I have yet to take master crafted because like you it doesn't seem like the greatest 5 points to spend some times, I do have to disagree about the intensity of Perils of the Warp. Yeah, it totally sucks when it happens, but I've must have played at least 10 games with them now and haven't once suffered Perils. Maybe I'm just lucky or biding time with my GKs, But also, I don't really worry about number crunching. I have to admit that I build to paint, not build to play necessarily. I love to play, but I'm a hobbyist at heart.

Love how you compared it to SALE Shoppers though. Awesome!

-zach

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

But of if forked out another 5pts, you could have a second hammer with 3A on the charge instead of a single re-roll, which you may not get anyways if he hits every time but wiffs on the damage chart or to wound roll.

To me, that just seems more bang for your points than a single re-roll that may not even happen at all.

Hammers are free on Termies btw... I get your logic, and if you really wanted too you could field a whole unit of Hammers. But I have a Master-crafting on my two Termi Justicars for the pure fact I have 10 points left :L. Oh yeah, Tyranids (in my opinion a very good army, especially when you get the Doom of Malanti dropped in your deployment zone) make you Perils alot more, with their Shadow in the Warp thingey D:

[Bean]

I think a lot of people think of a single re-roll in the wrong way, and end up under-valuing it as a result.

A re-roll is an extra attack every time you miss at least one attack. Would you pay five points to give your Justicar another attack? Seems likely--and against the significant majority of targets, the re-roll is identical to an extra attack about three times out of four, or seven times out of eight when he's charging.

It's not really a contingency for when you miss--you're going to miss at least one attack far, far more often than you're going to hit all of your attacks. Its more like an extra swing that you occasionally lose (but only when you're lucky enough to have hit all of your other attacks)

Five points for master-crafting on an important weapon like the Thunderhammer is a worthwhile investment. I wouldn't drop a psycannon for mastercrafting, but its one of the best places to spend extra points.