BA Honor Guard Weapons

[Foosh]

Question about benefits of equipment:
For each honor guard model, with exception of priest, I can swap out pistol and/or chain sword. So theoretically I could swap a pistol for a melta gun, and a chain sword for a melta gun.
What would be the benefits of this?
Would it act like a twin-linked melta? Would I get TWO melta shots when shooting?

Reasoning:
In close combat if you only have a power fist and BP you only get 2 attacks, but equip TWO PF and you get a bonus attack. Why would there only be a benefit to close combat from equipping two of the same items?
Having played Tau, I know theirs are twin-linked.
Meltas are not a heavy weapon.
You are paying the points for the gun, so why not have the benefits of the gun??


Any help would be appreciated!

[DrWobbles]

Unless you are monstrous creature, walker, or vehicle you may only fire one weapon a turn. so this would be a bad idea.

[DaceFTH]

Unless you are monstrous creature, walker, or vehicle you may only fire one weapon a turn. so this would be a bad idea.

Page in the rulebook please? And page 15 only says "normally" not ALL.

And page 16 says "some models may have one shot weaponS" plural.

[Foosh]

Under Twin-Linked in the BRB

"A set of twin-linked weapons count as a single weapon of that type, but to represent their fusillade of fire you may re-roll the dice to hit if you miss" - BRB p.31

After reading this I can't really say that having two of a weapon would make them twin-linked, although the wording is slightly confusing...

" NORMALLY each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon. Some models, including vehicles, may be able to fire more than one weapon, as detailed later." - BRB p.15

"A player may choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers (as some models may have one-shot weapons, for example)." BRB p.16

"Normally troopers will only get to fire one shot each." BRB p.17

Overall, and after flipping through the BRB, reading over the FAQs (all) I think it is just a matter of the BRB is outdated/not prepared for the new age codices and a regular infantry model being able to carry 2 weapons.
You may argue that the typical SM has two weapons BP, Bolter, however just look at it and you can see why both cant be fired. One is 2 handed, one is 1 handed, SM's dont have 3 hands.
Therefore by all I have read, and despite as much as it might suck for playing against (as I most likely will, I play BT not BA) it would appear that these models can shoot both guns. Thus 2 melta shots for one model. The points are accounted for, it doesn't count as a two handed weapon, and if my opponent chooses this and not more efficient wargear (storm shields, etc.) my chances are heightened to kill them.

Also, other examples are terminators w/heavy weapons, and a Techmarine w/servo harness.
Terminators can take heavy flamer, cyclone ML, assault cannon in some codices it is written as replacing their storm bolter, I can't find anywhere that says CML lets you shoot both weapons, yet it is understood that they can. Terminators are relentless, so can move/shoot/assault w/ heavy weapons, but are none-the-less infantry models. As to the Techmarine when he takes a servo harness it has a built in TL plasma pistol as well as a flamer, he is just another infantry model, it would appear he can shoot both weapons. Servo harness just says he has the extra weapons, nowhere does it say that he is allowed to shoot only one, or more than one.

So until I see exact wording in a rulebook, codex, FAQ or w/e I will allow the shots. I would prefer that it just be a twin-linked one instead of 2 shots, but that just doesn't appear to be how TL is written.

[OXRS]

This is, honestly, quite stupid. READ. THE. CODEX. In the Blood Angels book, the CML and servo harness are in the wargear section. Each entry has it laid out explicitly. You may fire the CML and the storm bolter, and only the storm bolter, at the same time. You may fire both servo harness weapons at the same time, or one servo harness weapon and one other weapon. These are specific exemptions to the rule that infantry may fire one weapon, unless granted specific permission to do otherwise. Meltaguns do not grant this permission and Honour Guard do not grant this permission. Nowhere does it state that taking two meltaguns on an Honour Guard unit means the meltagun becomes twin linked or the model may fire with both weapons.

Lets use Tau as an example, as you claim to have experience with them. It specifically states that two weapons of the same type on a Crisis Suit become twin linked, and at a discount from if you were to purchase two of the regular, single weapons. In addition, the essential support system for a Crisis Suit, the multi-tracker, allows you to fire two weapons in the same turn. These are specific exemptions that deal with both twin linked weapons and infantry firing two weapons. Honour Guard get neither of these. They are given the option to replace both their bolt pistol and chainsword with a variety of weapons so you can equip them for versatility, if you think that's a good use of points. A flamer and a meltagun, for example. Equipping them with two meltaguns does exactly nothing for you except cost more points.

[DaceFTH]

This is, honestly, quite stupid. READ. THE. CODEX. In the Blood Angels book, the CML and servo harness are in the wargear section. Each entry has it laid out explicitly. You may fire the CML and the storm bolter, and only the storm bolter, at the same time. You may fire both servo harness weapons at the same time, or one servo harness weapon and one other weapon. These are specific exemptions to the rule that infantry may fire one weapon, unless granted specific permission to do otherwise. Meltaguns do not grant this permission and Honour Guard do not grant this permission. Nowhere does it state that taking two meltaguns on an Honour Guard unit means the meltagun becomes twin linked or the model may fire with both weapons.

Lets use Tau as an example, as you claim to have experience with them. It specifically states that two weapons of the same type on a Crisis Suit become twin linked, and at a discount from if you were to purchase two of the regular, single weapons. In addition, the essential support system for a Crisis Suit, the multi-tracker, allows you to fire two weapons in the same turn. These are specific exemptions that deal with both twin linked weapons and infantry firing two weapons. Honour Guard get neither of these. They are given the option to replace both their bolt pistol and chainsword with a variety of weapons so you can equip them for versatility, if you think that's a good use of points. A flamer and a meltagun, for example. Equipping them with two meltaguns does exactly nothing for you except cost more points.

Sure ok, but everything you used as examples refers to firing a 2hander and a 1hander or a 2hander and a 2hander which is why they have to be specifically written out in the codices.

Meltagun = 1hander?

The whole reason given for a normal tac marine not being able to fire his bolter and pistol is because the bolter is a 2hander.

Oh and slow your roll killer, hes just asking the question and looking for a respectful response.

[Foosh]

As I said BT, not BA, so I don't have their codex w/ me so I can't give it a full read ATM, due to the fact I don't own it.

You gave examples yet you still do not show, as I requested, EXACTLY where it says ONLY one weapon. Everything is just vague and refers to normally, in most scenarios, etc.
As for using Tau, that is a poor example. Their codex hardly follows most of what is in 5th Edition, hence needing of a new dex for them.

My point remains as is, and I still am looking for the full answer to it with the proof to back it up.
So if you'd like to blow up someone else's post who has a reasonable question feel free. Frankly, your diminutive demeanor is both unhelpful nor appreciated.

Plus, there are very few models in the game that actually can do this, outside of special characters and what not, most of which are codices which have come out after the BRB itself.
I think it's really a matter of as written, and as interpreted.

[OXRS]

Sure ok, but everything you used as examples refers to firing a 2hander and a 1hander or a 2hander and a 2hander which is why they have to be specifically written out in the codices.

Meltagun = 1hander?

The whole reason given for a normal tac marine not being able to fire his bolter and pistol is because the bolter is a 2hander.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. 5th edition just doesn't care how many hands it takes to hold a ranged weapon. It has no bearing on how many you get to shoot. Hell, there might be a theoretical pistol that requires two hands to use because of how heavy it is, but it has the Pistol rule, so it still grants +1A for two CCWs. How many hands a ranged weapon uses doesn't matter to anything. If there are no specific rules that allow you to shoot with two weapons, like being a vehicle, a monstrous creature, or having a multi-tracker, then you get to shoot with one weapon. That's it.


Oh and slow your roll killer, hes just asking the question and looking for a respectful response.

Actually, he was making ridiculous claims about the books not having the information he needed when he clearly hasn't read them (see the CML and servo harness claims for a big hint there), making up rules, and then stating that he's going to use it the way he wants to because he can't find anything that says he can't. That's called cheating. I never said he was stupid, just that this whole idea is stupid, and it is.

[DaceFTH]

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything. 5th edition just doesn't care how many hands it takes to hold a ranged weapon. It has no bearing on how many you get to shoot. Hell, there might be a theoretical pistol that requires two hands to use because of how heavy it is, but it has the Pistol rule, so it still grants +1A for two CCWs. How many hands a ranged weapon uses doesn't matter to anything. If there are no specific rules that allow you to shoot with two weapons, like being a vehicle, a monstrous creature, or having a multi-tracker, then you get to shoot with one weapon. That's it.



Actually, he was making ridiculous claims about the books not having the information he needed when he clearly hasn't read them (see the CML and servo harness claims for a big hint there), making up rules, and then stating that he's going to use it the way he wants to because he can't find anything that says he can't. That's called cheating. I never said he was stupid, just that this whole idea is stupid, and it is.

He actually never said he was going to use them that way, in fact as stated he plays BT not BA. He actually has stated that twice now in the thread. His originally question talked about BA Honour Guard.

[OXRS]

You gave examples yet you still do not show, as I requested, EXACTLY where it says ONLY one weapon. Everything is just vague and refers to normally, in most scenarios, etc.
As for using Tau, that is a poor example. Their codex hardly follows most of what is in 5th Edition, hence needing of a new dex for them.

No, you showed where it says a model may normally use only one weapon. You quoted it yourself, for crying out loud. You just really want to interpret the rules in a certain way that fits what you want. There are specific exemptions, like being a monstrous creature or a vehicle. Infantry don't get that exemption, so why are you assuming they do?


My point remains as is, and I still am looking for the full answer to it with the proof to back it up.
So if you'd like to blow up someone else's post who has a reasonable question feel free. Frankly, your diminutive demeanor is both unhelpful nor appreciated.

You have proof, you supplied it yourself, you just don't want to see it. This is not a reasonable question you're asking. This is you trying to bend the rules in a way that doesn't work, and instead of erring on the side of caution and playing in a way that doesn't let you gain more strength until you're told that you can do it, you're going to charge ahead and cheat.

Also... Diminutive demeanor? I don't think that word means what you think it means.


Plus, there are very few models in the game that actually can do this, outside of special characters and what not, most of which are codices which have come out after the BRB itself.
I think it's really a matter of as written, and as interpreted.

Templars, Vanilla Marines, Blood Angels each have a unit that can do that. It's not that rare. Just because one unit has an option that acts differently, doesn't mean you get special rules. Space Marine Chapter Masters get an Ordnance ranged attack. Infantry can't normally use those, but he has a special rule which treats it differently.

Warhammer 40K is a rule set that requires you to have specific permission to do anything. It's not a rule set that allows you to do whatever you want unless it says otherwise. You don't have specific permission for your infantry to fire two weapons. That's all there is to it. It's not complicated.

[OXRS]

He actually never said he was going to use them that way, in fact as stated he plays BT not BA. He actually has stated that twice now in the thread. His originally question talked about BA Honour Guard.

"So until I see exact wording in a rulebook, codex, FAQ or w/e I will allow the shots. I would prefer that it just be a twin-linked one instead of 2 shots, but that just doesn't appear to be how TL is written."

Yeah, he never said that.

I'm done now, though. You guys don't want to see how the rules work, so have fun.

Edit: Ok, I went through and I apparently missed the part where he said he's talking about his opponents army. Sorry about that, but my points still stand.

[Foosh]

Yet again with the curt reply. I can see you feel strongly about your view point on this and I appreciate your ability to express it. However, as I have mentioned that's what it is, a viewpoint.
My entire post was out of curiosity, and a desire for concrete evidence to satisfy said curiosity.
I apologize that I have seemingly stepped on your toes with some sort of excessive force, that was not the intention. All said though, you still haven't shown me anything towards helping find the answer. I understand your viewpoint, and respect it. I am not going to sit here and try to tell you it is wrong, because I don't know, hence the reason for starting the thread.
Also, as a heads up, nothing in BT codex allows for this situation to occur, with the exceptions which I incorrectly used as examples and then read again, and am now more aware of. For which I thank you for showing me the err of my speed reading.
On a final note, diminutive demeanor, I was referring to your unrefined (rude) replies of making small an earnest (serious) question, and belittling (criticizing) others views just because they don't coincide (go along with) yours.

[Tynskel]

Basically, Twin-linked designation has to be explicitly stated. You could carry two meltaguns as an honor guard (or command squad in Space Marines, ect), but unless otherwise specified, the weapon is not twin-linked, nor may the model fire two weapons.

From a modeling standpoint, however, I think it is worth while giving Honor Guard two infernal pistols to count as a meltagun. I think it would look cool.

[KingStuart]

Seriously, there is no problem here. P15 of the BRB states 'Normally each model in a unit can fire a single weapon. Some models, including vehicles, may be able to fire more than one weapon, as detailed later'.'

i.e. Unless otherwise stated a model can only fire one weapon.

You quote this rule yourself, I'm not sure what your problem is here at all? Please explain. Thanks.

[MaltonNecromancer]

P15 of the BRB states 'Normally each model in a unit can fire a single weapon. Some models, including vehicles, may be able to fire more than one weapon, as detailed later'.'

i.e. Unless otherwise stated a model can only fire one weapon.

Exactly.

Your BA Honour Guard don't have a special rule that says they may fire more than one weapon a turn, so they can't. Yes, you could take two meltaguns if you felt like it... but they wouldn't become Twin-Linked, because the rules don't explicitly say they do; as a result, the marine in question could only fire one of them a turn... meaning that you'd be paying for another meltagun you never get to use. Which is pointless.

Foosh, seriously, unless a model has a special rule in it's codex description, it behaves "normally". I think that's the part of the rules which (charitably speaking) you've not understood properly/ (uncharitably) are ignoring.

I would also point out that even your close combat weapons example of Power Fists doesn't work, because a Power Fist is a one-handed weapon. Look at two-handed close combat weapons; they don't confer the additional attack, and a meltagun is obviously a two-handed weapon. So even this comparison falls flat.

Finally, when you say "diminutive" (which means "of smaller stature or size"), I think you meant to say "demeaning" (which means "insulting").

Hope all this helps.

[Foosh]

Ok, NOW I get it. When explained calmly and reasonably I am more open minded to interpretation.

@Tynskel - that's a pretty awesome idea, no lie. If I didn't already have all my BT with melta guns I'd consider it!

@KingStuart and MaltonNecromancer - I appreciate both of your replies, and thank you for your help. The wording in general in the BRB I feel is just rather weak regardless, and having it not talk in much detail about infantry (despite being a MAJOR element of the game) I found rather frustrating. However, now I am willing to agree.

As to my wording, it was an abstract idea of me feeling like it was making light the issue, or making it seem like a small and dumb issue, when to me I felt it was important. So yes, not the right wording, but in my mind it made sense.

And just to clarify, for the last time, this was not for my army, I don't even have the ability to do something like this in my army, so I was not purposely trying to be ignorant of the rules or bend them, I just happened to flip through my buddies codex while he was playing yesterday, and then in messing with army builder it seemed like an odd conundrum, thus my asking the question.

@MaltonNecromancer - Before I forget though, on the pwr fist issue though lets say a base 2 attack Sgt has a pwr fist and a bolt pistol, he will only get his 2 attacks in CC. However, if he has both power fists and no pistol he has 3 attacks. Only way a power fist ever gets a +1 attack for 2 CCW!

So again, thank you all for your help with helping me solve this issue! :)

[addamsfamily36]

out of curiosity, under honour guard does it not state may replace either or? or something along those lines?
I would normally reference the book myself, but its at university. if so, then you can only replace either the bolt pistol or the chainsaw?

[Tynskel]

you can replace both weapons.

You could take 2 meltaguns. But that won't do you any good. You could take a meltagun and a plasma rifle. You can only fire one weapon a turn.

[dannyat2460]

out of curiosity, under honour guard does it not state may replace either or? or something along those lines?
I would normally reference the book myself, but its at university. if so, then you can only replace either the bolt pistol or the chainsaw?

its and/or meaning can replace one or both of them with something,

like my death company mini calgar i replaced his bolt pistol and his chainsword for a power fist and a power fist

[addamsfamily36]

fair enough. i might have to take a look at my honour guard layout when i get back.

[Tynskel]

its and/or meaning can replace one or both of them with something,

like my death company mini calgar i replaced his bolt pistol and his chainsword for a power fist and a power fist

Awesome, I have a 'calgar' death co. I use him as my power armor Calgar standin when I am using Ultramarines.

[dannyat2460]

ya there awsome both in game and looking just a little expensive points wise lol

[Demonus]

you can replace both weapons.

You could take 2 meltaguns. But that won't do you any good. You could take a meltagun and a plasma rifle. You can only fire one weapon a turn.

this would make more sense. you could shoot the plasma rifle at troops until close enough and use melta before assault!

[Tynskel]

The only problem is that it is 25 points of weapons!

You haven't even paid for the Jump Pack yet.

[addamsfamily36]

The only problem is that it is 25 points of weapons!

You haven't even paid for the Jump Pack yet.

And you just know that the plasma gun is going to overheat and kill your 40-60+ model in turn one :D

[Tynskel]

not very likely, until the priest is dead.

[addamsfamily36]

not very likely, until the priest is dead.

you need to witness my inability to roll a dice above a 1.

its gotten to the stage where i now almost refuse to fire mephistons plasma pistol as i know its going to cause him a wound.

[addamsfamily36]

not very likely, until the priest is dead.

you need to witness my inability to roll a dice above a 1.

its gotten to the stage where i now almost refuse to fire mephistons plasma pistol as i know its going to cause him a wound.

[Tynskel]

now, that's funny.

[dannyat2460]

you need to witness my inability to roll a dice above a 1.

its gotten to the stage where i now almost refuse to fire mephistons plasma pistol as i know its going to cause him a wound.

been there done that (still no T-shirt tho) and im in the agreement with you i refuse to fire his plasma pistol anymore and to make things worse when ive done it before he normaly gets fnp also and still loses a wound, infact of the 7 time mephiston had died under my command 3 of them has been to his own plasma pistol and once to perrils :mad: all the rest have been to eather sternguard melta sguad or th ss terminators

[addamsfamily36]

been there done that (still no T-shirt tho) and im in the agreement with you i refuse to fire his plasma pistol anymore and to make things worse when ive done it before he normaly gets fnp also and still loses a wound, infact of the 7 time mephiston had died under my command 3 of them has been to his own plasma pistol and once to perrils all the rest have been to eather sternguard melta sguad or th ss terminators

maybe we should make some t shirts. just an image of mephistion with his head in his hands in despair, with two dice underneath with two 1's

lol i find i lose the wound early in the game and then i die in combat because my opponent causes 4 wounds or i fail 4 and i'm like NOOOO if only i hadn't fired that damn pistol.