Grey Knights = Psychers?

[w7west]

Pretty simple question:

Is your everyday, force weapon weilding grey knight a psycher?

inb4 "go check hundreds of posts in faq" I did and this simple question was not answered.

[Hive Mind]

No, the squad as a whole counts as a psyker.

[DarkLink]

It depends on what the ability is that requires you to consider it, but yes, each squad of GKs is a single psyker, and anything that attacks said psyker only hits one single model in the GK unit.

[fuzzbuket]

for psy powers yes every squad of GKs is a psyker for targeting i think it goes towards the justicar

[Mr.Pickelz]

Justicar is targeted first as the victim of the affect (such as perils) and than you randomly determine who's the next victim in the squad.

[w7west]

These answers still seem a bit confusing. I guess asking about a specific scenario would be more helpful:

scenario 1:

A terrible accident has occured and a grey knight squad is killed to one man. This is not the squad leader or anything special, just your run of the mill grey knight trooper who was taking a bathroom break while his squad got blown up.

Is this model a psycher?


scenario 2:

A slightly less terrible accident has occured which leaves two run of the mill grey knights stranded without the rest of their squad. Apparently they were discussing official space marine stuff during a bathroom break together while their squad got blown up.

Which if any of these models is a psycher?


ty so far on answers but something like "the squad is a psycher" doesn't make sense to me in these situations.

[DarkLink]

A unit of Grey Knights, one model or 10, is always a single psyker.


"The squad is a single psyker" is exactly how the rule is worded, sensible or not.

Edit:
For example
1. An Assassin is within 12" of a unit of Grey Knights. The Culxeus gets +1 shot for being within range of a single psyker, no matter how many Grey Knights are left in the unit.

2. A Dark Eldar dude with a Crucible of Malediction flies up and uses it. One single model in each unit of Grey Knights within range is hit and must pass a leadership test or die, regardless of how many Grey Knights are in the unit total.

3. A Grey Knight unit casts Hammerhand. If passed, the entire unit benefits. If Perils is rolled, a single Grey Knight takes the Perils hit, regardless of how many other Grey Knights there are in the unit.

[Lemt]

These answers still seem a bit confusing. I guess asking about a specific scenario would be more helpful:

scenario 1:

A terrible accident has occured and a grey knight squad is killed to one man. This is not the squad leader or anything special, just your run of the mill grey knight trooper who was taking a bathroom break while his squad got blown up.

Is this model a psycher?


scenario 2:

A slightly less terrible accident has occured which leaves two run of the mill grey knights stranded without the rest of their squad. Apparently they were discussing official space marine stuff during a bathroom break together while their squad got blown up.

Which if any of these models is a psycher?


ty so far on answers but something like "the squad is a psycher" doesn't make sense to me in these situations.

In the first case he is a unit, so he's a psyker.
In the second case both compose a unit, and that unit is a psyker. If a Psyk-out bomb hits any one of them (or both) the unit will suffer a single Perils of the Warp (plus a S6 AP4 hit or two).

What are you thinking of exactly that confuses you? I can't think of any situation where it could really be a problem.

[Gir]

2. A Dark Eldar dude with a Crucible of Malediction flies up and uses it. One single model in each unit of Grey Knights within range is hit and must pass a leadership test or die, regardless of how many Grey Knights are in the unit total.

If the whole unit is a single psyker, then if you fail your single leadership test, the whole squad is removed.

[wkz]

If the whole unit is a single psyker, then if you fail your single leadership test, the whole squad is removed.Except the fact the codex took note of and overrules the "whole squad perils death" situation: It says something to the effect of: "If Periled, take the Perils on the Justicar, or if that guy is dead take it on a random Gray Knight Dude"

Its somewhere inside "Brotherhood of Psykers", IIRC.

[DarkLink]

Right, brotherhood of psykers explicitly states that anything targeting psykers (peril, crucible of malediction, etc) only hits one single GK in the unit.

[Gir]

Right, brotherhood of psykers explicitly states that anything targeting psykers (peril, crucible of malediction, etc) only hits one single GK in the unit.

Except the Crucible doesn't target anything. It simply affects psykers in a radius.

[wkz]

Except the Crucible doesn't target anything. It simply affects psykers in a radius.
And a GK unit (with BoPsykers) counts as only one psyker, and only one victim model from that unit when something bad happens to him.

Your point being?

[Lukaz]

So if only one Grey knight can be the target of anti-psyker stuff, what happens when a unit of them is charged by a unit with psychout grenades?

[Tynskel]

the unit counts as one psyker. Since they are all apart of the unit, they are all effected by the Psyk-Out grenades.

The Brotherhood of Psykers rules only addresses Perils of the Warp (like mind strike missiles), casting Psychic Powers (like hammerhand), and for the purposes of counting number of psykers (like the culuxes assassin). All other situations apply to the entire unit, because the Brotherhood of Psykers states the unit is psykers.

[DarkLink]

Except the Crucible doesn't target anything. It simply affects psykers in a radius.

Yes, it targets things. It targets 'all psykers within 4d6(?)".'

With psychic powers and abilities and the like, GW has never had a well defined term for 'targeting'. It uses phrases like 'hits all models', 'all models are affected', etc. There is no base upon which to argue that the use of the word targeting somehow excludes these cases, because GW never uses precise enough terminology for the wording to support that argument.

If this was Warmachine, then you'd be correct. Privateer Press does precisely define things, so there would be a difference between "targeted" and 'affected' and 'hit' and the like. GW, however, just uses random catch-all phrases.

And more importantly, I just got my first muscle-up. So take that:p.

[thecactusman17]

I know that a handful of people are trying to argue my argument back in the tactics thread. I get it, I do. But the wording is very, extremely clear in the Brotherhood of Psykers rules, and in the unit descriptions for each Grey Knights squad.

In order to be a psyker, the unit must have the special rule "Psyker (Master Level X)," use a psychic power, or have the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule or some combination thereof.

Very explicitely, from the codex starting Page 21, "Brotherhood of Psykers" paragraph 2, sentence 2:



The unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules for psykers, with the following clarifications:

A Grey Knight Unit uses the leadership of its Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or the unit (if he is dead) for Psychic tests. A Grey Knight unit can never use the Leadership value of an independant character for psychic tests.

If the Grey Knight units suffers the Perils of the Warp, or any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive) or against a random non-character model in the squad if the Justicar or Knight of the Flame is dead.

Anything that affects or "targets" a psyker squad affects the entire squad, and lethal effects are performed against one particular model, whose absence randomizes the affected model.

Just for further clarification:


All psykers in the same unit are treated as a single psyker for the purposes of psychic tests etc., and use their own leadership value... If the squad suffers the Perils of the Warp, all psykers in the squad suffer the effects

In this case, all psykers would be affected at the same time by say a Crucible of Malediction. But they would still count as exactly one psyker and make only one test. The "etc." part comes from the codex, indicating that Matt Ward felt he could trust you to use your head to understand that it counts as one psyker for all cases where that status would be interacted with. The "..." simply skips over the attack profile and rules and straight to the next part about being a psyker.

[bluesickboy]

So if i roll a 12 on a psychic for my psyker squad do they all die?
i think i have been playing my psyker squads wrong

[dannyat2460]

So if i roll a 12 on a psychic for my psyker squad do they all die?
i think i have been playing my psyker squads wrong

yes your psyker squad in the grey knight codex dies all of the psykers in it anyway

unless your talking about a IG psyker battle squad in this case the squad has an over seer which comes with special rules to save your entire squad by killing D3 instead

now why didnt grey knights think of an overseer :confused:

[thecactusman17]

Are you suggesting that Grey Knights would be consumed by chaos?

Because that would be heresy....

[Tynskel]

talking about the psykers other than Grey Knights.

[dannyat2460]

indeed i was talking about the psykers from the inquisitor retenue which are far too easy to be corrupted,

but if grey knights are incorruptable why do they suffer from perils

[Tynskel]

Perils of the Warp is not just possession. Some daemons may want to eat their souls.

[wkz]

Perils of the Warp is not just possession. Some daemons may want to eat their souls.
Either that, or
*Power Overwhelming!* .... Too much, TOO MUCH!! *kaboom*

[lantzkev]

That makes the culexus severly less cool than I thought before.

It still seems logical that the brotherhood of psykers counting the unit as one psyker is purely for the purposes of abilities that target psykers as a attack or effect. but that each individual model is a psyker.

Every single piece of information about psychic abilities of the grey knights is that "every grey knight is a psyker"

Just like the psychers in the warband, or the mystic...

although neither one have the attribute psyker..... it's pretty clear they are.

[Tynskel]

the culexus used to be amazing fighting bugs. Warriors used to be psykers, so the culexus used to just tear through them.

[Sonikgav]

That makes the culexus severly less cool than I thought before.

It still seems logical that the brotherhood of psykers counting the unit as one psyker is purely for the purposes of abilities that target psykers as a attack or effect. but that each individual model is a psyker.

Every single piece of information about psychic abilities of the grey knights is that "every grey knight is a psyker"

Just like the psychers in the warband, or the mystic...

although neither one have the attribute psyker..... it's pretty clear they are.

And here we have reason #1 people are trying to argue this.

Because it stops a single model thats difficult to even target to shoot at getting 60 shots with an Ap3 S5 gun at BS8. Reason #2 being that Dark Eldar cant remove multiple entire 300 point units with a single item.
Seriously guys.

[Tynskel]

What I miss was taking Colonel Scheafer with a 20 man strong penal psyker legion. Take an inquisitor and a Culuxes assassin. Then Fight a warrior bug based army. Oh, it was so delicious firing 40 shots at BS 5 with a str 5 AP1 gun. Whee!

Normally didn't win, though... But it was fun to see this one guy just tear through everything until he died.

Great for pick-up games!

[lantzkev]

Because it stops a single model thats difficult to even target to shoot at getting 60 shots with an Ap3 S5 gun at BS8. Reason #2 being that Dark Eldar cant remove multiple entire 300 point units with a single item.
Seriously guys.

It maybe difficult to target but you can always melee it.

Seriously though, if you're going by that stretch, you will say that if a culexus is standing next to a warband that has 12 psykers in it, and two grey knight strike squads, and two terminator squads it has a total of 6 ranged attacks...

because the psykers, aren't labled psykers under unit type.

Even though it's pretty clear they are psykers... it's in their name.

[Sonikgav]

It maybe difficult to target but you can always melee it.

Seriously though, if you're going by that stretch, you will say that if a culexus is standing next to a warband that has 12 psykers in it, and two grey knight strike squads, and two terminator squads it has a total of 6 ranged attacks...

because the psykers, aren't labled psykers under unit type.

Even though it's pretty clear they are psykers... it's in their name.

Thats a very good point.

*waits for some Rule Lawyer to start bleating that they cant suffer Perils etc*

[wkz]

Thats a very good point.

*waits for some Rule Lawyer to start bleating that they cant suffer Perils etc*
But but but... they're not PSYKERS!! I can cast psyker spells left and right, just that they don't take perils...

...

*Sarcasm critical failure: wkz suffers perils of the rules*

[lantzkev]

well they could because independent of the attribute of being a psyker anyone making a psychic test can suffer one I'm pretty sure. (hence the vehicles taking one)

[w7west]

Dear Games Workshop:

Witty opening remarks about you never reading this aside, perhaps it has come time when you need to hire some "rules lawyers" yourself to review these codexes before you publish them.

This is the kind of question that should never have to be asked about a recent codex release. There are places in your book stating that they are psychers, and yet in the same book there is mention of only the squad being a single psycher?

It took me about 5 minutes to realize there is an issue here. If you would like my resume, please don't be shy. If not, quit suing everyone and focus on your own quality control. This also applies to the Succubus blisters aka ball of misshapen metal.

[Denzark]

My layman's understanding:

GK squads take a single Psychic test - pass works for all, fail effects all. If there is a peril it affects the Justicar 1st, then knight of flame, then down to 1 randomly selected model in the Squad. This Justicar-flame knight-random model routine also applies to abilities targeting psykers - one GK takes the hit for the whole Squad.

How hard is this? Best thing about GK FAQ when it comes out? watching rules lawyers and whingers eat their words.

[Tynskel]

Yeah, I don't see the problem here, it is quite plainly laid out under brotherhood of psykers.

[lantzkev]

personally for me the confusion comes not in how psychic tests are taken, and how the wounds etc assigned from it, but how MANY psychkers are present.

my own RIA is that they collectively have one that's the leader, but that every grey knight is a psycher with few exceptions. (everyone that has the brotherhood of psykers all others aren't unless stated)

[lantzkev]

So FAQ is out and they still don't address the Psyker question in regard to how many shots it gets for one squad of 10 grey knights within 12in.... lame!

[DarkLink]

It's not a question. Read the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. A unit of Grey Knights counts as a single psyker. Sounds pretty clear-cut to me.

[Nabterayl]

I am also not clear on why this is a question. Brotherhood of Psykers seems quite clear to me that the unit itself is a single psyker, fluff notwithstanding.

Perils of the Warp says "The psyker suffers 1 wound;" thus, it is plain that if a squad of GKs suffers Perils, the squad takes one wound - which the codex gives guidance on how to allocate. Ditto DarkLink's other various answers.

[lantzkev]

Because it's not entirely clear for things like the Culexus assasin which increases it's shots per number of psychers present!

Counts as 1 for the purposes of tests etc, isn't quite clear for it's ability. 1 extra attack per squad within 12 is too wimpy for sure.

[Nabterayl]

Counts as 1 for the purposes of tests etc, isn't quite clear for it's ability. 1 extra attack per squad within 12 is too wimpy for sure.
What about Brotherhood of Psykers suggests that the squad counts as a single psyker only for certain purposes? It just says they count as a single psyker, period.

Granted it's odd that a squad of Grey Knights increases the number of shots an animus speculum can fire by 1, and a squad of sanctioned psykers increases it by much more than that. But "that's too weak; they can't possibly have meant that" isn't really a valid textual argument. There are plenty of other bizarre things in the Grey Knights codex that don't seem to match their fluff.

[lantzkev]

or that if you take a Psyker you technically don't increase it at all since they aren't labeled with the unit type "psycher"

so yeah, some areas that would of been good at address were completely skipped.

[Nabterayl]

or that if you take a Psyker you technically don't increase it at all since they aren't labeled with the unit type "psycher"
There is no unit type called "psyker." The only way to tell that a model or unit is a psyker is if there is a rule somewhere that says "X is a psyker." For space marine librarians, that special rule happens to be called "Psyker." For GKs, it's called something else.

[tabyrd]

what about grey knight vehicles with their psychic pilots. Obviously they are psychers? are they affected by the crucible? are they removed? what if they have a transported unit inside?

looks like i forgot i posted something about vehicles in the GK vs DE thread. it's still up in the air about vehicles and their crew, but it's more or less answered so disregard here. thanks.

[w7west]

The vehicle is indeed a psycher and must pass ld or be removed.

There are no written rules that talk about what happens to an embarked squad when their vehicle is just removed from play. Arguing wont help this point so just house rule it or roll a dice.

"The squad counts as a single psycher"
"ok then take your ld check for the entire squad"
"Failed my leadership, removing the squad leader"
"The squad counts as a single psycher. Crucible removed that psycher from play after it failed ld"
"Bro im grey knights you can have one space marine"

I can see this argument not coming to an agreed conclusion.

[DarkLink]

"The squad counts as a single psycher"
"ok then take your ld check for the entire squad"
"Failed my leadership, removing the squad leader"
"The squad counts as a single psycher. Crucible removed that psycher from play after it failed ld"
"Bro im grey knights you can have one space marine"


This is blatantly not how the Brotherhood of Psykers rule works in relation to the Crucible. Any DE player who tries to pull this is illiterate at best and cheating at worst.

[w7west]

This is blatantly not how the Brotherhood of Psykers rule works in relation to the Crucible. Any DE player who tries to pull this is illiterate at best and cheating at worst.

Someone tells me their entire squad counts as one psycher, I let them take a single test. After the test I only ask we keep the same definition.

[Archon Charybdis]

Someone tells me their entire squad counts as one psycher, I let them take a single test. After the test I only ask we keep the same definition.

Except, as I've pointed out to you in another thread, Brotherhood of Psykers very specifically details how you handle Perils or attacks directed at psykers, and it involves removing a singular model, not the entire squad.

[DarkLink]

Archon is right. If you actually read the BoP rule, you see two things:

1. A unit of GKs counts as a single psyker.

This just means that the Crucible can target GKs. And, if it weren't for the rest of the rule, it would work like you describe. You're ignoring the rest of the rule, however.

2. Anything that hurts the psyker is resolved against one, and only one, model within the unit.



I don't know what is unclear or complicated about this. The only possible way to conclude that the Crucible can kill more than one model at a time is to completely ignore half of the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

[jeffersonian000]

what about grey knight vehicles with their psychic pilots. Obviously they are psychers? are they affected by the crucible? are they removed? what if they have a transported unit inside?

looks like i forgot i posted something about vehicles in the GK vs DE thread. it's still up in the air about vehicles and their crew, but it's more or less answered so disregard here. thanks.

GK vehicles are not Psykers. Psychic Pilot only threats than as Psykers for pschic tests and pschic hood.

However, if we do decide to count them as Psykers, the Crucible would still have no effect since vehicles can never fail a leadership test, which is what the Crucible calls for. Psychic test /= Leadership test, even if they use the same stat and mechanic.

SJ

[lantzkev]

However, if we do decide to count them as Psykers, the Crucible would still have no effect since vehicles can never fail a leadership test

Wrong. Vehicles always pass moral tests, they are treated as a leadership of 10 when they are required to make such a test (or psychic test)


There is no unit type called "psyker.

Go make a warband for a inquistor and look at the troop named "Psyker" then look at their subtype... guess what, it's just infantry... Even though it's named "psycher"

[lantzkev]

There is no unit type called "psyker." The only way to tell that a model or unit is a psyker is if there is a rule somewhere that says "X is a psyker."

page 50 of Grey Knights unit name "Psyker"

Unit Type: Infantry...

Uh... what do you know a unit that is pretty clearly a psyker, but isn't...

Guess even though the unit name is Psyker, it doesn't increase the Culexus assasin's attacks if in 12 in...


GK vehicles are not Psykers.

Odd "Psychic Pilot" A vehicle with this rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10... blah blah if perils of the warp suffers a glancing hit.

[Tynskel]

I am not sure what you are trying to say, but the grey knight book is clear that there is only one psyker at any time in a unit of grey knights.

[Nabterayl]

He's pointing out that there is nowhere a clear statement that psykers (the henchman type) are psykers.

[lantzkev]

but the grey knight book is clear that there is only one psyker at any time in a unit of grey knights

just as a point of clarity, the unit counts as a single. Fluff wise, and everything wise they are all psykers.


He's pointing out that there is nowhere a clear statement that psykers (the henchman type) are psykers.

Bingo.

Glaring problems that need in a "FAQ" and were missed.

Although I'm glad the doomfist issue was put to rest.

[thecactusman17]

the henchmen are not Psykers, true. But one or more Psyker henchmen in a group count as one psyker should anything that affects psykers be used by them or against them. that is very clear in their rules. So true, they don't have the rul in their unit description, but they certainly do get affected by it in their rules.

[Xenith]

inb4 "go check hundreds of posts in faq" I did and this simple question was not answered.

That's because it's not in an FAQ...It's in the Grey Knight Codex.

[w7west]

the henchmen are not Psykers, true. But one or more Psyker henchmen in a group count as one psyker should anything that affects psykers be used by them or against them. that is very clear in their rules. So true, they don't have the rul in their unit description, but they certainly do get affected by it in their rules.

So kind of like how we assumed dias could take upgrades until the faq came out?