DE 1750 Any good?

[FallingCalamity]

Archon, agonizer. combat drugs, phantasm, and shadow field 145

Lelith 175

(7) incubi In a raider with flickerfield 229

9 wychs, 1 hydra, Heatrix with agonizer in raider with flicker 205

10 wychs, 2 hydra, Heatrix with agonizer in raider with flicker 225

5 warriors with a blaster in a venom with second splinter canon 125

5 warriors with a blaster in a venom with second splinter canon 125

6 reavers with 2 heat lance and 1 caltrop 176

ravagers with flickerfields 115

ravagers with flickerfields 115

ravagers with flickerfields 115

Archon goes with the incbi and lilith goes with the wychs

[BlindGunn]

Well,
- you have 4 troop choices - Good
- you have both Ravagers and Raiders with Lances - Good
- you have Venoms for Anti-Intantry - Good
- you have a standard Arcon - nothing wrong with him
- I've not run Lelith yet, but she looks like fun! ;)

You have a good sized unit of Reavers (6). If you want to go Tank-Hunting, maybe split into two squads of 3 so you can chase after 2 targets per turn. Otherwise, I would keep them together as 6 Bloodvane attacks (including Caltrops) is more likely to do the damage you want. Either choice is good depending on how you use the Reavers.

I would caution you on the Wyches and the Incubi. Without Haywire Grenades, they are vulnerable to Walkers (Especially Dreadnoughts). If they get caught up in combat with one, they'll be stuck there until end of game or destroyed. It's a popular tactic with Marines to bait with one unit, then charge into an ongoing combat with a dread to tie them up. I usually try to give my Wyches Haywire as a preventative measure. If forgoing Haywire, I would recommend prioritizing Dreads with your lances.

Good Luck! Let us know how it works for you!

[FallingCalamity]

Thanks for the info Had a game against craft world eldar and smashed him so good signs so far Marines will be the big challenge. was thinking of swiching it up and taking this or should I just leave It


Archon, agonizer. combat drugs, phantasm, and shadow field 145

Baron 105

(7) incubi In a raider with flickerfield 229

11 Hellions , Helliarch with a agonizer 201

10 wychs, 2 hydra, Heatrix with agonizer in raider with flicker 225

10 wychs, 2 hydra, Heatrix with agonizer in raider with flicker 225

5 warriors with a blaster in a venom with second splinter canon 125

6 reavers with 2 heat lance 156

ravagers with flickerfields 115

ravagers with flickerfields 115

ravagers with flickerfields 115

[BlindGunn]

I can't offer much advice on the Hellions or Baron (I'm still assembling them!) :o

However, the numbers look about right - I understand you need numbers for the Hellions to work.

Was there anything in particular that happened in your first game that made you want to change or are you just interested in changing things around a bit? Both are valid reasons. Both lists look viable to me.

[blackarmchair]

However, the numbers look about right - I understand you need numbers for the Hellions to work.

I'm not convinced on this one. I see a lot of people saying this but in reality Hellions can really do a lot of damage in medium-sized squads.

The problem I see most often is people do their mathhammer without factoring in the combat drugs and they make the mistake of trying to build a squad to roll an entire MEQ squad in one round (this is a tremendous mistake with DE).

I'm currently in the process of building a Dark Eldar army and the way that I plan on using Hellions is: 1x Helliarch with Agonizer, 8x Hellions and the Baron - 10 men. The cost of the Hellions is about 150pts baron goes for near 100 (no exact points values). If you average the expected number of MEQ casualties with each drug roll and from shooting prior to assault you will kill 7 MEQ before they even get to swing.

It doesn't make a math whiz to understand that the 3 remaining Marines won't do much damage. 2 PF swings from the sergeant and 4 attacks from the assault marines (I'm assuming assault marines - no one is worried about Tac squads). This boils down to around 1.5 Hellion casualties - meaning you win close-combat by 4-5 (you might even claim another dude to fearless saves if you're lucky).

Granted, Hellions ARE vulnerable to being shot up. This is why I take the Baron with them to grant them a 3+ cover save with stealth and I will often deep-strike them for a little second-wave clean up crew. They can handle MEQ, they bring some nice shooting support to your army and tbh they can even damage tanks with S4 (maybe 5 with a few pain tokens) and the baron at S6. And even in a small, 10-man squad they can do lots and lots of damage.

Don't count Hellions out, people like to build Hellions in huge squads because - like all Dark Eldar - they're fragile. However, given proper screening and deployment these guys are speedy enough to get upfield and do good damage even in a medium-sized squad.

My Math on MEQ casualties (in case anyone is interested):
No Drugs/Extra Fleet Drug Roll/Feel No Pain Drug Roll:
Shooting: 2.22
Assault: 4.43
Total: 6.65
-------------------------------------------------
+1 Weapon Skill:
Shooting: 2.22
Assault: 5.59
Total: 7.81
-------------------------------------------------
+1 Strength:
Shooting: 2.22
Assault: 5.37
Total: 7.59
-------------------------------------------------
Re-Roll to Wound:
Shooting: 2.22
Assault: 5.96
Total: 7.16
-------------------------------------------------
+1 Attack:
Shooting: 2.22
Assault: 5.65
Total: 7.87
-------------------------------------------------
Average: 7.283

[FallingCalamity]

great read guys im taking them because im interested in changing things around a bit :D plus droping Lelith is a lot of points back. so 9 Hellions and the baron is great? should I all ways Deepstrike them? thanks for all the info :D

[blackarmchair]

You needn't always deep-strike them, it's a judgement call. If you feel that they're going to be shot up too much then deep-strike them after your wyches have tied squads up. Otherwise they can just be deployed.

[FallingCalamity]

Thank you so much blackarmchair you have given me so much help hears a fixed up list :D

Archon, agonizer. combat drugs, phantasm, and shadow field 145

Baron 105

(7) incubi In a raider with flickerfield 229

9 Hellions , Helliarch with a agonizer 169

10 wychs, 2 hydra, Heatrix with agonizer in raider with flicker and grisly trophies 225

10 wychs, 2 hydra, Heatrix with agonizer in raider with flicker and grisly trophies 225

5 warriors with a blaster in a venom with second splinter canon 125

6 reavers with a champ 2 heat lances and 1 caltrop 186

ravagers with flickerfields 115

ravagers with flickerfields 115

ravagers with flickerfields 115

[GrenAcid]

I havent played games beyond 500pt(no chash currently) but from my expflickerfield on wych raider isnt good choice, Eather sails/tormentor granade lauchers/grisly tropheis are, why? cuz when you jump flat out with raider to get close as poslible you get 3+ cover so rapid fire from bolters isnt big deal(I survived 40 shoots) and 2d6" aditional move is your friend there. Rest of upgrades are worthless on suicide taxi-mabe shock prow is somthing to reconsider- afther disembarking you can ram somthing & maybe do somthing(oh dont forget about tank shock guys out of cover/objective/ect).

As for reavers, 7 makes you test ld afther 2 of them dies, with 6 only 1 dead force ld test.
Wych wepons....hmmm...tbh its personal taste...my friend says they not worthy buying cuz its not a PW and they are 10pt each... so hydra or razor-take whatever you like(I preffer razor cuz our girls are only S3) but IMO shardnet is "must have" on squad with lelith to hunt down IC and keeping her safe.

[blackarmchair]

Aethersails are awesome on a raider, I've never thought of it that way but Acid is right. The only reason you should take flickerfield is if you intend to sit still and shoot.

Only thing I think Acid has wrong is about the reavers. You take a morale if you suffer 25% casualties 1 out of 6 is not 25% of the squad a 6-man reaver squad needs to suffer 2 casualties before it tests. Even a 5-man squad needs to lose 2.

Wych weapons I do like, it's either Razorflails or Shardnet/Impaler if you ask me but it is a personal taste issue.

[blackarmchair]

Wait! 3+ cover? Don't you mean 4+?

Isn't the 3+ only for bikes?

[TheRise]

Personaly instead of flickerfields i would go for Night Shields. This works against Tau, as with your 21"-26" assault range from coming out of the raider you will be assaulting a lot of thier Fire Waarior units, whether thay Rapid Fire or not.
I usualy go for Razorflails on my Whyches, but as has been said it is personal taste on what to go for.
With Hellions, if you roll for the +1 strength for combat drugs, you can destroy an enemy vehichle -you are hitting rear armour which is usualy 10- and if you get 2 pain tokens on the charge you can destroy a vehichle with AV 11.
On my Raiders i like to take Chain-Snares and Enhanced Aethersails rather than Grisly Trophies. My raiders will go alot faster than my Troops on the ground, and will almost always be moving. Sometimes i stay still to fire my Lance, or move up to 6" but if you use Enhanced Aethersails you can be dropping your Chain Snares on a unit over 24" away.
When i am playing more Horde armies, such as Orks, IG, and Nids, I like to swap my Dark Lance for a Disintegrator Cannon for some more Anti-Infantry. nothing wrong with a S5 AP3 gun that has 3 shots.

May I just say good luck in your games, and your list will do well against many enemy's :)

[blackarmchair]

Nightshields are something I'm torn on. On paper they seem pretty good, but upon closer inspection they become highly situational.

Yes, against Tau they can be awesome (unless he has railguns); against armies that lack a lot of long-range firepower (IG, Grey Knights, Tyranids, Daemons or Necrons) they do great. But the second you roll up against Space Marines (of any flavor), Eldar, other Dark Eldar, Orks or Witchhunters they quickly become useless. So whether or not you take them depends on your local metagame. I would never take them to a big tournament because "the big three" (SW, BA & IG) are able to handle night shields quite well.

[FallingCalamity]

hmm nice work guys heres a reworked list feelings? theres no agonizer on the hellirch I dont like that but im unsure where to get the points also only 1 unit upgrade per wych unit should I change them to Razorflails ? This comes to 1747

Archon, agonizer. combat drugs, phantasm, and shadow field 145

Baron 105

6 incubi In a raider with flickerfield 202

9 Hellions and hellirch 154

10 wychs, 1 hydra, Heatrix with agonizer in raider with flicker 210

10 wychs, 1 hydra, Heatrix with agonizer in raider with flicker 210

5 warriors in a venom with second splinter canon 110

5 warriors in a venom with second splinter canon 110

6 reavers with 2 heat lances 156

ravagers with flickerfields 115

ravagers with flickerfields 115

ravagers with flickerfields 115

[TheRise]

Why would you take a Helliarch if you were going to be putting Sathonyx in the unit?
One thing to take into consideration is giving the Archon a Blaster as well (it is legal to give him an agoniser and blaster) as well as a Soul-trap. If you kill a HQ or a MC with the Blaster, you are going to S6, which is very beneficial. But i do like taking a Huskblade instead if you would be doing this.

Otherwise it does look like a good list.

[blackarmchair]

If you do decide to keep the helliarch give him a power weapon. That'll add some more punch to the unit.

[FallingCalamity]

Did some quick changes and droped 1 wych from each squad and put a agonizer on the Helliarch had a game with some craftworld eldar. Turned out great for me all he had left was a night spinner :D very happy with the out come, still waiting to fight some marines to find out how it will go with meq

[thecactusman17]

Nightsihields are really, really good if your standard opponent is using infatnry to deliver short or mid-range anti-tank firepower. In my LGS I flat out owned people for the first few weeks becaues too many lists wouldn't bring long range firepower. Of course, Guard laugh his upgrade off with their artillary. But meltaguns, bolters, hell even storm bolters and heavy 36" range weapons can get royally screwed by this upgrade.

Reducing range by 6" is a rare ability that works just as well off-board screwing with your opponent's mind as it does in-game. So many tactical blunders have been made due to this ability, I really cant speak highly enough of it.

This is one of those abilities that frankly is either going to win you games or do nothing at all, and it's going to come down entirely to how you and your opponent approach the game.

[HarlekissofDeath]

Personally I use flickerfields and nightshields on all my vehicles. It makes them a little more expansive, but I have shutdown enough people trying to shoot at me, and when they could shoot at me I have made enough saves to know that these are invaluable.
A 12 man squad of hellions coming out of a webway portal are disastreous to whatever is anywhere near them when they come out and a 15 man squad with The Baron is even more frigthening, as is a 15 man squad of wyches with a hekatrix with agonisor, and a succubus with agoniser, or Lelith. make sure they have haywire grenades. they can kick so much tail.
I usually have a mixed list, and am the only one that I have even heard of that really uses a webway portal; I never leave home without one, especially if you have reavers, hellions and wyches in your list. I would recommend some disentegrator cannons on at least one of your ravagers if not two. They are anti mech, and anti infantry. Dark lances aren't that amazing, and the answer isn't get more dark lances. Use your wyches to assualt and haywire grenade a vehicle, or your hellions are str 4 they can glance a vehicle to death, and like I said disentegrator cannons are awesome. I thought they were crap too, until I used them and that ravager was the MVP of that game and made my oppenent really rethink his list and strategy.
My personnal view on the Dark Eldar codex, is there is so much awesomeness in it, that to limit yourself to just repeating certain untis limits your potential. Last week played a talos for the first time, and I loved it. He kicked so much butt, and like I said I brought him out from reserves and he came out of the webway portal in the middle of the board right next to a tac squad and a dread. He took them both out.
Mix it up, and think outside the box; don't let someone on the internet rag you into thinking that only certain things will work. You'll never know until you try it. :)

[FallingCalamity]

thanks dude will do :D

[Cheese]

I find that a Clone Field tends to work better than the Shadow Field, but that's just personal preference. I just find they fail at the worst of times.
I think that if you want to run an Agoniser HQ, take a Succubus. She's cheaper overall, comes with the Combat Drugs, has a 4++ Invul for free that does not disappear after your first fail, she has a higher WS so that when you roll that 2 on Drugs models will be hitting on 5's as opposed to it being useless in most cases on the Archon and her Initiative is that 1 point higher, helping a tad with Sweeping Advances.
I agree that Flickerfields are wasted points on Raiders. I think that both Night Shields and Flickerfields are wasted on all vehicles, there's just so many other better things to take.
Razor Flails>Hydra Gauntlets generally. Can't be bothered to do the math right now, but I've seen it and even if you're rolling exceptionally well on the Gauntlets, it's hard to match the Razor Flails. The Gauntlets do, however, look much better, so if you don't mind that little bit less of a punch then the Gauntlets are fine. Wyches are also designed to tie units up though, so the Shardnet will generally work better. It's also worth considering giving your Syren a Venom Blade instead of the Agoniser because it still adds some nice punch, but won't kill too much, making units flee.

Don't go overkill with your Hellions. 15 is an unneccesary amount.
Haywire Grenades are also full of fail. I have used them on multiple occassions and anyone that is destroying vehicles with them has blessed dice. More Dark Lances is the answer.

[ShotDownMind]

No.

Succubus go with wyches or bloodbrides, archons go with things that need grenades (incubi or grotesques), and he is better because of the 2+ invul. Clone field is not better. HQ is about army build there, you are wrong on wargear, although archons with haemo/grots can use huskblade effectively on charge, still not better overall than an agonizer. :rolleyes:

Generally I wouldent say flickerfields are wasted points, but there are generally better ways to spend those points. One raider with a flickerfield means the other 9 have cover saves. Nightshields have very limited application on fighters/bombers to some extent and anything you want to protect from bolters. Probably wasted points there...

Flails and Gauntlets are fail. They ARE worthless compared to shardnet. They ARE also a worthless investment in time to debate, use wyches, know the answer...

Haywire grenades are the opposite of fail, they are pretty awesomely cheap and reliable anti-tank weapons. You are crazy.

;)

[Cheese]

No.

Succubus go with wyches or bloodbrides Not completely true., archons go with things that need grenades (incubi or grotesques) I do see what you are getting at here, I'll give you that one., and he is better because of the 2+ invul No. the 2+ save will generally fail within 6 rolls, and potentially on the first. The problem with this is that once it's gone, it's gone for good leaving him exposed with only a 5+ save to save him.. Clone field is not better I didn't say better, I said more reliable, better in my opinion.. HQ is about army build there, you are wrong on wargear, although archons with haemo/grots can use huskblade effectively on charge, still not better overall than an agonizer A S6 power weapon causing instant death is not better than an Agoniser? I will admit that the S3 is not great, but this is why I give him a venom blade as well in case he happens to run into a tough opponent, like a Daemon Prince.. :rolleyes:

Generally I wouldent say flickerfields are wasted points, but there are generally better ways to spend those points That's what I meant by waist of points.. One raider with a flickerfield means the other 9 have cover savesYou should be going Flat out 1st turn, so they all should have a 4+ cover save no matter where they are. After they drop off their load, their job is essentially done. Any more turns alive is just a bonus. . Nightshields have very limited application on fighters/bombers to some extent and anything you want to protect from bolters. Probably wasted points there... I agree.

Flails and Gauntlets are fail. They ARE worthless compared to shardnet. They ARE also a worthless investment in time to debate, use wyches, know the answer... I would agree that Shardnets are better, but some people have different playstyles. For those that like killing more (not what wyches excel at) Flails>Gauntlets.

Haywire grenades are the opposite of fail no., they are pretty awesomely cheap and reliable anti-tank weapons. You are crazy. They're not that cheap. It's 20 points per unit here, with 2 units he's sinking 40 points into Haywire Grenades. Due to mobility, Haywires will usually be hitting on 4's, if not 6's, so that's only 5 hits that are likely to do very little. Think of the many vehicles ignoring your Crew Shaken and Stunned results. Now, if you do in fact manage to make the vehicle explode, it'll kill half of your unit. If it's got troops in it, they'll easily gun you down. If it doesn't have troops in it, you'll just get shot from elsewhere and most likely do very very little to the vehicle. Good job wasting your 170 points unit for shutting down a single vehicle for 1 turn :rolleyes:


;)
;)

[BlindGunn]

Actually, you're not going to blow up vehicles very often with Haywire. Most of the time, you're Glancing - forcing -2 on the dice roll. Vehicles will only explode IF:
- You roll a 6 to Penetrate instead of Glance
- You then roll a second 6 on the damage table.

(Math Wizes: Is the probability 1/6 * 1/6? - been out of school way too long!)

As to Haywire being Wasted points - it depends on who or what setting you're playing in.

- While SOME vehicles ignore Shaken and / or Stunned - not all do. In a tournament setting, you can probably expect to see many that are not immune.
- While you should try to destroy Dreadnoughts and other walkers with Long-Ranged fire, it's not always possible (bad dice rolls, too many LOS blocked by vehicles, etc).

I lost games because of Walkers and vehicles keeping me from objectives or tying up my forces. Once I started using Haywire and destroying walkers and vehicles with them, my success rate went up. That's proof to me. (I also use Photon Grenades on Tau which everyone is disdaneful of and have successfully driven back and defeated Assault Marines that way multiple times by limiting their attacks and overwhelming them. Doesn't work for everyone, but it seems works for me.)

If 20 points on a 10-man Wych squad is a waste to you, that's fine. You have a technique that works for you, great!
Nothing I can say is going to make you change your mind. As a testimonial, Haywire Grenades have saved my bacon and claimed a number of Dreads and vehicles in multiple games. At over 100 points for a typical Dread, plus other unit(s) that a single squad of Wyches can then assault and destroy, not to mention denying Kill points for, I can afford the 20 points to make my wyches more versatile.

My advice to everyone regarding all things 40k: Try it out - see if it works for you or not. Try multiple times!!! If not working for you - don't use it!

[Cheese]

So you manage to get enough 6's on your to-hit rolls to regularly destroy Dreadnoughts? Can I have your dice?

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

sorry cheese i have to disagree with you also. Haywires work. even if you dont get the penetrate you are more likely to get a stun or weapon destroyed which is almost as good especially when we are talking about armor 14(ie land raiders, monoliths) 20 points taking out 150-250 points models equals a win in my book.

[TheRise]

Haywires are great for thier points cost!
1 unit of 10 whyches:
Pen = 16.6%
Glance = 66.6%

For 2 points that si great. And personaly I prefer Wrecked to Exploded most of the time.
And these are one of the few things that can destroy Monoliths, without wasting loads of shots on it.

[BlindGunn]

So you manage to get enough 6's on your to-hit rolls to regularly destroy Dreadnoughts? Can I have your dice?
When you're rolling enough dice, you can. I usually get 1 or two 6's a turn with 10 Wyches in CC (Not great, but not bad odds). All you need to do is immobolize the Dread once and then you're hitting it regularly after that. I also usually take Shardnets to reduce number of swings back against me.

I have destroyed them once or twice with a Penetrate followed by either Wrecked or Exploded (the Exploded wasn't too bad - already down to 2 wyches left in the unit. Increadably lucky roll.)

[FallingCalamity]

so much great info :D as a side note once the razerwing comes out I want to take one insteed of a ravnger do you think that would be a good move?

[thecactusman17]

BlackArmChair, for future reference I find that listing the point cost total for a unit or force org without dividing is more than sufficient to avoid trampling on GWs or anybody else's toes. In your example, 9 hellions (one of which is a Helliarch with an Agonizer) and the Baron comes out to 274 points.

I run large squads of hellions for two simple reasons: It looks awesome, and also it really helps to spread the wounds out when you fail to get that all-important cover save. They are also then capable of spreading way out and multi-charging several units, which helps them stick in CC for an extra turn.

[TheRise]

Its hard to say whether a Razorwing is better than a Ravager, as the Ravager has an extra Dark Lance and is cheaper. But then the Razorwing has anti infantry and horde affects s well.
But it is onyl an extra 40 points, and it comes with the missiles, splinters, and Supersonic and aerial assault. So personaly I would say it is a good move. And it is what I would do.

[Wolf Brother Hellstrom]

i usually run with two ravagers and a razorwing just in case the razorwing has to do double duty, however a ravager with three disntegrators can tear up some infantry, even termies. im torn between the two:cool:

[FallingCalamity]

great :D thanks for the input cant wait for the model to come out. This weekend I have a small tournament on heres the list IM going to be taking. Now what I want you guys to do is rebuild the list it so its more competitive more fun and Includes a razerwing fighter :P the only condition is that Incubi , Wychs and Reavers are put into the list have fun cant wait to see what you guys build :D

Archon 60, Agoniser 20, Combat Drugs 10, 145
Phantasm Grenade Launcher 25, Shadow Field 30,

Baron Sathonyx 105 105

Elite

5 Incubi 110, Raider 60, flickerfield 10, 180

Troop

9 Hellions 144, Helliarch 10, Agoniser 15, 169

9 Wychs 90, 1 Hydra Gauntlet 10, Hekatrix 10,agonizer 20, Raider 60, flickerfield 10, 200

9 Wychs 90, 1 Hydra Gauntlet 10, Hekatrix 10,agonizer 20, Raider 60, flickerfield 10, 200

5 Warriors 45, Blaster 15, Venom 55, Second splinter canon 10, 125

5 Warriors 45, Blaster 15, Venom 55, Second splinter canon 10, 125

Fast Attack

6 Reavers 132, 2 heat lances 24, 156

Heavy Support

Ravager 105, Flickerfields 10, 115

Ravager 105, Flickerfields 10, 115

Ravager 105, Flickerfields 10, 115

1750

[FallingCalamity]

Great weekend overall came 4th :D with some very hard games had a good look at my list and now have changed it to this :D Left the bikes out they never made there points back out of all the games they poped 1 rino :S lol what do you guys think


Archon , Agoniser , Combat Drugs , 145
Phantasm Grenade Launcher , Shadow Field ,

Baron Sathonyx 105

Elite

7 Incubi , Raider , flickerfield ,

Troop

9 Hellions , Helliarch , Agoniser , 169

10 Wychs , 2 Hydra Gauntlet , Hekatrix ,agonizer , Raider , flickerfield , 220

10 Wychs , 2 razer fliails , Hekatrix ,agonizer , Raider , flickerfield , 220

5 Warriors , Blaster , Venom , Second splinter canon , 125

5 Warriors , Blaster , Venom , Second splinter canon , 125


Heavy Support

Ravager , Flickerfields , 115

Ravager , Flickerfields , 115

Razerwing, 2 dark lances, 2 mono,2 nero, night s, flicker and a splinter cannon. Ill have it come in from rerves drop its missiles then go anti tank hunting

[Cheese]

Don't post individual items points costs. Only the cost of the unit as a whole. It's OK to say the points cost of a single model/upgrade occasionally, but how you've got it is against the rules. Games Workshop forbids individual points costs as you have on sites other then theirs.

Your list look alright, but wyches are 10 points each, not 9. So to make up for those points you should probably just keep monoscythe missiles on the Razorwing. The target's you should be aiming at you should be wounding on 2's anyway.

[FallingCalamity]

all fixed :D

[Cheese]

List looks pretty good. I'd take Shardnets over Flails or Gauntlets though, but that's just me.