has your codex been ruined? ( and WHY)

[fuzzbuket]

hello again!

normaly with things such as new codex's the trend used to be

'OMGWTFBBQ IT IS SOOOO CHEEZY'

however with some new dex's it dosnt seem quite right!
whilst some of the new dex's are excellent (BA,SW) some also feel like a let-down.
so vent that rage: who was a let down, why and how you will fix it!


for example ( to get the ball rolling) the new grey knights

whilst they are now more competitive some things dont feel right: some of the fluff is odd
the inclusion of WH and ordo xeno units is odd, having daemont hosts ally with OX =][= 's is odder and having these supported by grey knights is bizzare! also cortez getting downgraded from super/awsome jesus dude to henchmen tax is depressing add in un-fun ruels: ( no simple NFW now its like libby force weapons: aka lots of failed psy saves) and the daemonhosts/calladius getting ruined

and to top it all off THE ( 2nd) most iconic unit the humble IST has vanished!

however to fix it ill either
a) play C:DH nope GW hasnt said they are getting removed, and there is no replacemnt C:DH dex so.... ( i IZ CUNNIN!)
b) write an artical on my blog in a day or two with quick FAQ fixes!

[FTE-Charge!!!]

Wish you had put all the codices as options! Then we could have a real rant lol

Nids- bc we keep getting the same rehash with some new beasties. The crowded Elites section takes the cake for me, however, there are too many good choices in that section.

Daemons- still powerful, but too much random luck needed. Im offended at how much of an uphill battle it is vs GK. Too many 'bad' and 'good' units. The 'bad' were included bc they already had models.

IG- not the guard I grew up with. No more swarms of platoons or LBT, now its vets and manticores everywhere you look. I want waves of tanks and infantry blowing up and dying with more to come, but its become very elitest in my opinion.

[DarkLink]

My codex is awesome!

[Brass Scorpion]

I can't believe Dark Angels are not on that list. I don't see anything in the poll that has been made obsolete quite like Dark Angels.

[Jokubas]

I played Daemonhunters before and I do not think that the Grey Knight Codex ruined them (for what I liked them for).

It did things I've always wanted like adding more options and bringing more focus on the Grey Knights. However, I've been a little underwhelmed nonetheless, the more I look at it, and this article (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/04/grey-knights-are-they-too-boring.html) sums up a lot of my feelings about it.

Maybe it's that the army's just not for me (though I love the look and feel too much to go elsewhere), or maybe it's the game itself that's just not for me.

There's too many HQ options that don't feel like they should all be HQs to me and it's hard for me to just pick two. I still really wish we got jetbikes or something, and the Dreadknights are a neat idea that I just think looks awkward without at least some conversion, not to mention they feel thematically redundant to me sitting alongside Dreadnoughts.

Then there's all the point costs. A lot of the variety I was happy to see is almost universally derided as being "too expensive," especially with the low model count, and then I still feel like there isn't enough customization on most of the units. Almost every Grey Knight model seems to have the same options, leaving out things like Storm Shields which I think look awesome on Grey Knights, and the Inquisitors seem too limited even despite the three types.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

I can't believe Dark Angels are not on that list. I don't see anything in the poll that has been made obsolete quite like Dark Angels.

Fair point... How come there isn't any Chaos Space Marine Inclusion?

Wait what... There wasn't a Daemon codex before the current? Just there inclusion within the old Chaos Space Marine codex? Is that what people are reffering to?

[wittdooley]

IG- not the guard I grew up with. No more swarms of platoons or LBT, now its vets and manticores everywhere you look. I want waves of tanks and infantry blowing up and dying with more to come, but its become very elitest in my opinion.

No one is stopping you from playing this type of IG army. There's a character in the Dex that allows you to keep pouring on conscripts. People choose not to play this style IG army.

[Denzark]

+1 why not Chaos Space Marines? Loss of legions, acknowledged blandness. Puny daemons.

[MaltonNecromancer]

No one is stopping you from playing this type of IG army. There's a character in the Dex that allows you to keep pouring on conscripts. People choose not to play this style IG army.

You are so totally right. I've had great success with my IG blob horde. People can talk smack about melta vets in Chimeras all they want. It's a successful tactic. So's 2 50 man IG platoons with a Commissar and a Priest with Eviscerator, especially backed up by 15 Autocannon teams.

I don't think any of the new codicies are remotely bad; each has strengths and weaknesses and is different. And surely that's the point? To have armies with different playstyles.

The problem to me seems to be the tournament-minded "One Army To Rule Them All" build madness: the dangerous idea that there is one "perfect" army build that will universally beat any army you run into (because that's what you've got to do in a tournament!)

It's madness, and it's short-sighted, and it's foolishness. Ork horde is beaten by IG tanks with flamers. IG tanks with flamers is beaten by DoA BA's with inferno pistols. Which are beaten by...

And so on. I love building IG lists with Ogryns. This is because I think Ogryns are cool. they're also expensive, but pretty damn terrifying if used correctly. Almost every unit in the 5th ed codicies has some use and is effective in some way (except maybe the poor Tyranid Pyrovore).

I love the way the new codicies take the best of 1st edition's background.

Nothing's broken as far as I can see.

[Denzark]

You are so totally right..

Mr M N I hope you don't use this sort of America's Next Top Model slang vernacular when teaching the language to the flower of the nation's next generation.

So, like, I mean, whatEVER girlfriend...

[MaltonNecromancer]

Like, I totally hadn't realised that could be read in a, you know, like, Valley Girl argot.

In my head, it's slightly on the edge of camp. You should probably end the sentence with the word "darling" to get the full effect. :D

[Hive Mind]

Grody to the max.

[zenjah]

I'd vote Chaos Space Marines if it was on the poll. Is there a reason it isn't there?

[Denzark]

I'd vote Chaos Space Marines if it was on the poll. Is there a reason it isn't there?

Yeah, didn't you hear? The new Grey Knights won. The eye of terror has been welded shut by ghostmarines. War's over, nothing to see here.

[wkz]

Yeah, didn't you hear? The new Grey Knights won. The eye of terror has been welded shut by ghostmarines. War's over, nothing to see here.
At a nearby table...

Slannesh: What the hell is that guy smoking? I want some.
Tzeentch: Must be the new fluctuations in the warp... Just as planned
Nurgle: Don't worry guys, this always happens. It'll be the same old, same old in a year's time.
*Nurgle and Tzeentch eyeballs each other... sparks fly*
Khorne: GAH!! IT STILL INFURIATES ME!! MUST ATTACK!! *furiously typing a 1,000 word incoherent, badly grammar'ed essay on how you're wrong, your mom is wrong, and your skull belongs to him for even thinking of thinking of that idea...*

[Demonus]

Yeah, didn't you hear? The new Grey Knights won. The eye of terror has been welded shut by ghostmarines. War's over, nothing to see here.

I hear Chuck Norris fears Grey Knights....

/ducks thrown tomatoes

[mysterex]

Radical inquisitors don't make sense anymore now that you need to take grey knights to get your minimum two troop squads. In the mean time I'm left with more kasrkin/inquisitorial stormtrooper squads than I can sensibly use in any army.

I should have learnt. My Lost & the Damned, Emperor's Children (termies, havocs & deamonettes) and even a squad of genestealer hybrids all went the same way.

[fuzzbuket]

it was sorta intended for the newer dex's because some things (SOB) cant be ruined because they havnet been replaced ... ill update the poll options thought
*edit* eff that imaginne daemons= choas= CSM

-fuzz

p.s. anyone know how to edit polls -_- im stuck

[Denzark]

Radical inquisitors don't make sense anymore now that you need to take grey knights to get your minimum two troop squads. In the mean time I'm left with more kasrkin/inquisitorial stormtrooper squads than I can sensibly use in any army.

I should have learnt. My Lost & the Damned, Emperor's Children (termies, havocs & deamonettes) and even a squad of genestealer hybrids all went the same way.

Some big debate on this in the rules section with most siding on the minimum can be taken by the henchmen with coteaz - although he is supposedly no radical...

[Daemonette666]

Wish you had put all the codices as options! Then we could have a real rant lol

Nids- bc we keep getting the same rehash with some new beasties. The crowded Elites section takes the cake for me, however, there are too many good choices in that section.

Daemons- still powerful, but too much random luck needed. Im offended at how much of an uphill battle it is vs GK. Too many 'bad' and 'good' units. The 'bad' were included bc they already had models.

IG- not the guard I grew up with. No more swarms of platoons or LBT, now its vets and manticores everywhere you look. I want waves of tanks and infantry blowing up and dying with more to come, but its become very elitest in my opinion.
Agreed on that. The 5th edition codexes are listed but what about the 4th edition codexes and those from earlier editions? I know I was peeved of with the NERFING that the Chaos MArine Codex got by Alesio and Gav. I would have preferred Andy to write it, as he has been a chaos player/developer for a long time and I think he would have kept the character of the individual Chaos Legions as well as incorporating the new Renegade spae marine forces.

We will have to wait till 6th edition comes around. I would just like the points values to be brought down so that they are in line with the current marine codex, and have the commander options to allow certain troops types (i.e. khrne berserkers, noise marines, etc to be an elite choice unless you have a Khorne or Slaanesh lord.

Apothacaries, Psychic hoods (or their equivelant), A Word Bearer Chaplain HQ, Universal special rules if you take certain HQs, such as a Night Lords Lord= night vision + raptors are troops, Iron Warriors Lord= tank hunters + obliterators or Havocs are troops, etc.

Well enough of what I want to see, it should be part of another thread, but I agree with FTE-Charge, I would liked to have had the optoin to vote on Chaos, Eldar, Tau, Dark Angels, Necrons, Sisters of Battle and Black Templars as well.

[Daemonette666]

I hear Chuck Norris fears Grey Knights....

/ducks thrown tomatoes
That can not be. Chuck Norris is a Grey Knight and therefore knows no fear, and is incorruptable. His twin brother however is a Word Bearer Space marine and follows the true Gods.

[Mr.Pickelz]

So if Chuck Norris is a Grey Knight then where is Bruce Lee? :D:D


Edit: i agree with Jokubas' feelings of underwhelm-ness about the Grey knights, also i miss the ignore invul saves off the psycannons and incinerators. SS would be sweet to see as well as fit with the theme of paladins (i just can't believe that Draigo has the only SS in the entire "Chapter") And that instead of being like the BT in terms of unknown numbers, their now a Codex chapter that only has 40 purifiers in the entire army. That alone took a lot of the cool/awesome factor away especially since you have the first battle of Armageddon being fought with 100 terminators ... :(

[Fellend]

So if Chuck Norris is a Grey Knight then where is Bruce Lee? :D:D Still dead....

[Brotherjames]

Poor Nids... I don't play them but I know I had a lot more fun and harder matches against the last version of the codex than the current.

[BuFFo]

Out of your list, only Orks, DE and SM are fairly balanced.

Every other choice is an abomination by being gimped heavily for not being an Imperial Codex, or over powered and made stupid-proof for being an Imperial Codex, and even then SM walks that thin line with Vulcan.

[eldargal]

The Eldar book is just old, written for an edition when things cost more and invulnerable saves were rarer, rather than being poorly written. At the time it was released it was extremely good.

[Lord Castellan]

Not saying its had the most balance/fun removed, but im wondering why the BT and DA codexes arent listed

[GrenAcid]

For me on top are CSM you all know why.
Second are demons....no options beside HQ/HS.

Rest is ok....My new DE are Awesome.

[fuzzbuket]

BT/DA havent really been replaced, its more for the people whom have had a codex update: and it isnt too good/fun/happy/comp

and because i havnt figured out to edit polls

[Da Gargoyle]

Out of your list, only Orks, DE and SM are fairly balanced.

Every other choice is an abomination by being gimped heavily for not being an Imperial Codex, or over powered and made stupid-proof for being an Imperial Codex, and even then SM walks that thin line with Vulcan.

I disagree with the Orks being balanced. They were given new stuff and made cheaper but they lost a lot.

Waagh charge limited to one turn, bikaz lost their psycho blasters but never got their 36" range back. And they are not cheaper, no mobbing up, No boss pole big horns or big gob leadership bonus - instead you lose a boy to re-roll. Tank bustas were made unusable because they have to shoot at the biggest vehicle in line of site and move towards it, even if it is 48" away. Kans gained 1 for BS and had their WS halved to 2. Big gunz are even more fragile because you can't include a mek to repair them. No meks to march with Kans anymore to repair them. And whole units, like skar boys disappeared. And worst of all, I lost my lovingly converted Demolisher tank by the name of Grim Daize

Basically I was so upset I opted for the change and became an Elf. At least they can hit a target on occasion and I now scream at the objective in wave serpents.

[Ghoulio]

Out of your list, only Orks, DE and SM are fairly balanced.

Every other choice is an abomination by being gimped heavily for not being an Imperial Codex, or over powered and made stupid-proof for being an Imperial Codex, and even then SM walks that thin line with Vulcan.

I personally think this is 40k right now. It is times ten my single biggest problem with the game currently. You are either on the imperium were you get everything and the kitchen sink, or you are xenos and your books are made up of nothing but compromises. The problem lies no in the Space Marine codex (which is one of the best Codex's to date baring some minor points tweeking) but in the successor chapters, as they are all the main book, but more powerful. It isnt a new thing of course, as the last 3 editions have been this way, but it is just getting more noticeable now because of the 7 codex's released in 5th ed, FIVE have been imperial. Really makes a guy want to play Fantasy :)

[Lord Castellan]

BT/DA havent really been replaced, its more for the people whom have had a codex update: and it isnt too good/fun/happy/comp

and because i havnt figured out to edit polls

I'm just wondering why codexes as old as Orks are listed. Plus if it's about updates, why are you listing Daemons who were a first dex release?

[Gir]

They're all fine, as long as you don't play try to play tournament/waac games (which the systems is not designed for)

Last night I had an awesomely close 2000pt game between my Blood Angels and my friends Chaos. Both of us took really fun and bizzare lists.

I also then witness Necrons wipe the floor with Tau. I mean really wipe it. In a 2000pt game the tau where tabled on turn 3, with the necrons loosing a few wraiths and destoryers.

[razcalking]

I'd say that the Space Wolves have been somewhat ruined in that I have to read thread after thread after post after post *****ing about how "overpowered" they are.

I'd gladly remove/worsen Thuderwolf Calvary, Jaws of the World Wolf and Long Fangs if it would reduce the incessant whining.

[murrburger]

They're all fine, as long as you don't play try to play tournament/waac games (which the systems is not designed for)

Last night I had an awesomely close 2000pt game between my Blood Angels and my friends Chaos. Both of us took really fun and bizzare lists.

I also then witness Necrons wipe the floor with Tau. I mean really wipe it. In a 2000pt game the tau where tabled on turn 3, with the necrons loosing a few wraiths and destoryers.

I don't really want to bring up this argument, but even the greenest/fluffiest player can see the huge disparity in power between let's say, Codex: Tau Empire and Codex: Imperial Guard. I'm not saying that Tau will never beat Imperial Guard. It's just an uphill battle. Even if you're not playing WAAC.

I think with 5th edition, the game is becoming more and more balanced. There are a few exceptions (Daemons are pretty unreliable. Tyranids, many consider bad. But that's mostly a metagame problem.)

So yeah, I think all the 5th edition books are okay. Some are more powerful than others, but that's mostly just natural.

[Uncle Nutsy]

I also then witness Necrons wipe the floor with Tau. I mean really wipe it. In a 2000pt game the tau where tabled on turn 3, with the necrons loosing a few wraiths and destoryers.

been there so many times. it doesn't matter if the list is 500 pt, 1000pt, 1500pt or anywhere in between.

a guy loads up with warriors, a couple tomb spyders, some wraiths and a destroyer or two and I can kiss my entire tau force goodbye in five turns.

I can't count how many games I've played where i concentrated my entire tau force on one squad and it takes three turns just to kill them off. But by then, whatever is left is so mangled they can't do anything to any other squad.