Razorback: Which weapons?

[MaltonNecromancer]

So: two Razorbacks designed to carry two 5 man Sternguard teams. They are primarily tasked with providing anti-tank fire support.

Do I go:

a.) Two TL Lascannon?
b.) Two TL Assault Cannon?
a.) One with TL Lascannon, one with TL Assault Cannon?

After initially going for option a, I'm currently veering towards option b. Assault Cannon seem to provide a higher chance of penetrating armour in the all important 11-13 category, as well as providing some hard-hitting anti-infantry firepower if necessary.

Thoughts?

[Wolfshade]

I usually use mine with the ***-cans (not just because I like that abbreviation), but the anti-infantry combined with rending is good. Though the lascannons are always useful, but are Heavy 1, so aren't so useful against infantry. It all depends on whether you go for out and out tank hunting, or want some versatility.

[KingStuart]

For me the biggest factor is the range of the assault cannons being so short, are your stern guard gonna be close enough? Presumably yes.

[DarkLink]

Lasplas is better than the TL las in general. TL AC is best for Blood Angels due to their fast vehicles. Vanilla Marines can make use of both, it depends on what you're doing with the sternguard. Since you'll be a midrange shooting unit anyways, I'd probably try the TLAC.

[Whoop!]

sidebar

Is the Las plas one weapon or two? Can I fire both at the same time? Does a Weapon Destroyed take the whole turret?

I love the TLAC, so nice

[Iceman]

...and where do you get the Las-Plas weapon for the Razorback turret? Do you have to make one yourself out of bitz?

[Root]

You gotta build them. Same with the assault cannon option (unless you have a land raider crusader you aren't using). Iceman, my vote is for the assault cannons for the versatility they provide.

[DarkLink]

sidebar

Is the Las plas one weapon or two? Can I fire both at the same time? Does a Weapon Destroyed take the whole turret?

I love the TLAC, so nice

Two weapons, can't fire both at the same time. So on one hand it takes an extra weapon destroyed result to stop you, but on the other it limits your effectiveness as you move.

When you're outside of 24", however, you don't need to shoot the plasma, so you can still move. And if you're outside of, say, 12", you probably don't need to move too much so the extra firepower is nice. And when the enemy is in close range you can rapid fire and move and do a lot of damage. You may not be 100% efficient, but we're not concerned with efficiency, we're concerned with total effectiveness. Lasplas is the least efficient, but if your opponent has to come to you then it's also the most effective which is what we want.

Thus for an army that sits back and shoots, lasplas is best. For one that moves forward, TL Assault Cannon.

[lobster-overlord]

You gotta build them. Same with the assault cannon option (unless you have a land raider crusader you aren't using). Iceman, my vote is for the assault cannons for the versatility they provide.

Sponson-less Baal Predator as well. I run a BP turret on one of my RBs if I want that option.

[AngelsofDeath]

I dont know why people over look the basic Razorback with Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter. You dont have to pay an additional +35 points for a heavy weapon which is 5 points shy of another Razorback.

Take a 10 man squad, get a free flamer, get a free missile launcher, take the basic Razorback, combat squad out the 10 man squad, put the flamer and Sgt in the Razorback, use the Missile launcher for cover and to take out targets.The Razorback with the Heavy Bolter will not draw as much fire as a Assucan or the Twin LC combo, and still gives cover fire to your squads taking objectives.

A Razorback 40pts + 35pts for Assucan=75 A Predator with AC is 60pts+25pts Heavy Bolters =85
Armor= 11/11/10 Armor= 13/11/10

Just something to think about......

[DarkLink]

It's because just a heavy bolter really doesn't add much to your army. Sure, if you've got a unit of 6 or fewer guys, and 40 extra points to spend, by all means get the heavy bolter. An extra heavy bolter isn't a bad thing.

That heavy bolter, however, is taking up a slot which you could be filling with an infinitely more useful weapon. A Marine army already has plenty of light anti-infantry weapons, another heavy bolter isn't a big deal. Another lascannon or assault cannon, though, that's a good bit of firepower you just added to your army.

[Whoop!]

Darklink Thanks for the down low on the Las/plas. I was playing it right, but I didn't know where it was written.

[PalinMoonstride]

i dont know why people over look the basic razorback with twin-linked heavy bolter. You dont have to pay an additional +35 points for a heavy weapon which is 5 points shy of another razorback.

Take a 10 man squad, get a free flamer, get a free missile launcher, take the basic razorback, combat squad out the 10 man squad, put the flamer and sgt in the razorback, use the missile launcher for cover and to take out targets.the razorback with the heavy bolter will not draw as much fire as a assucan or the twin lc combo, and still gives cover fire to your squads taking objectives.

A razorback 40pts + 35pts for assucan=75 a predator with ac is 60pts+25pts heavy bolters =85
armor= 11/11/10 armor= 13/11/10

just something to think about......

preach it like a chaplain battle brother!

[Wolfshade]

Yeah but if you have filled up your FA slots with Baals, what you gonna do ;) iff you need more assult cannons

[DrWobbles]

if we're talking BA razorbacks wouldn't LasPlas be the most efficient? you can move 6" and still fire both weapons giving you the best armor penetration odds (under 12" albeit). or do i need to freshen up on my fast vehicle rules?

[AngelsofDeath]

if we're talking BA razorbacks wouldn't LasPlas be the most efficient? you can move 6" and still fire both weapons giving you the best armor penetration odds (under 12" albeit). or do i need to freshen up on my fast vehicle rules?

I was talking Nilla Marines. The Blood Angels bring a whole different deal. Using a 5 man Assault squad you get to take the JPs off them and get a veh at a 35pt discount. BA Razorback costs 50pts, though it is considered a Fast Veh, you get them for 15 pts. They are cheaper cause you only take 5 marines, you do not have the option for a special or heavy weapon though.

But my idea behind the Razorback with Heavy Bolter is using what you have and doing more with less. The Razorback with Heavy Bolter is more likely to be able to take that 5 man unit across the board and not attract as much attention.

So a regular 5 man Marine squad=90+40 Razorback+35 Assucan=165. A 10 man Squad is 170 but you have a free missile launcher and a free flamer add a Razorback for +40 with Heavy Bolter your at 210. That is 45 points more and you have 5 more marines and an assault weapons and heavy weapon.

I guess its comes down to how you play. In a reg marine army I take 3 units like this, it allows me to combat squad out the marines. Leaves 3 heavy weapons and 15 marines to guard my objective or deployment area. And gives me 15 marines with 3 assualt weapon and 3 Twin Linked Heavy Bolters for support to go forward.

[BlindGunn]

It's not a bad tactic for those marine armies that can split into Combat Squads.

Unfortunately, my Wolves don't grant me the option... :(

In the case of Wolves, I like Las/Plas because:
- That's what I already had (the old version from 2nd/3rd edition)
- Gives my Long Fangs a ride that's just the right size
- It can provide some much needed Anti-MEQ defence if someone gets too close
- It has the extra weapon to kill so it's harder to wreck the vehicle (usually).

If I were to get ANOTHER Razorback, probably lean towards the LasCannon version, simply because wolves lack the ranged Anti-Armour unless you go a little crazy on Long Fangs...

[proeliator_legio]

I'm torn between the ***-cannon and the lasplas, I play BA so I get either weapon upgrade for free which is nice cause i usually only use assault marines as troop choices. Which leaves 35 points for me to play around with for something else.

[MaltonNecromancer]

So a regular 5 man Marine squad=90+40 Razorback+35 Assucan=165. A 10 man Squad is 170 but you have a free missile launcher and a free flamer add a Razorback for +40 with Heavy Bolter your at 210. That is 45 points more and you have 5 more marines and an assault weapons and heavy weapon.

True. But I'm specifically using it to transport 5 man Sterguard squads, not Tactical Marines. I'm not doing the typical marine horde thing (and have no interest in painting that many models to some half-bottomed standard); I'm doing an expensive, elite (better painted and converted) army of far fewer models.

Basically, I've been readiing a lot of the Deathwatch RPG, and having painted up enough models to use as characters for the game, I've just decided to just go the whole hog and have a Deathwatch army, which I feel can be perfectly represented by elite choices from the Vanilla marine codex.

I've got a Pedro Kantor stand in to make my Sterguard scoring, two 10 man Sternguard "tactical squads" to form a gunline, backed up with Devastators, and now this "Fire Support" section of the army, which is designed to take out tanks/MC's.

So recommending Tactical marines in Rhino isn't going to work for this army, as my Deathwatch aren't cheap Tacticals; the question was quite specific: two Razorbacks designed to carry two 5 man Sternguard teams. They are primarily tasked with providing anti-tank fire support. What loadout should I use?

I was tempted by the LasPlas, but I don't think it will look aesthetic enough (this is an army that I want to look impressive as much as play well); LasPlas are just a bit of an ugly mishmash, so I refuse to use them on that principle, no matter how good it might be strategtically.

So: do I go with the TLAssault Cannon, which will put the hurt on pretty much everything except AV 14 tanks (and then only at close range), or with TL Lacannon, which will hit far harder and further, but only be good against tanks?

The army includes two 5 man squad of Sternguard with 3 with combi-meltas and 2 meltaguns; if I put those in the Razorbacks as my primary tank-killers, does that change people's recommended load out?

[DarkLink]

if we're talking BA razorbacks wouldn't LasPlas be the most efficient? you can move 6" and still fire both weapons giving you the best armor penetration odds (under 12" albeit). or do i need to freshen up on my fast vehicle rules?

Lasplas sit back and shoot for the most part, though. TLAC, on the other hand, can move 12" to shoot, which makes up for the shorter range of the cannon. TLAC's advantage over lasplas is greater mobility, which fits better in general with the BA theme.

[novatomato]

If the sternguard are going to be anti-tank I would suggest going with the TLAssault. This way you will have both redundancy of purpose between the Razor and the Guard and the Razor will also be more able to provide anti-infantry as a support element to the Guard.

[newtoncain]

It's not a bad tactic for those marine armies that can split into Combat Squads.

Unfortunately, my Wolves don't grant me the option... :(

In the case of Wolves, I like Las/Plas because:
- That's what I already had (the old version from 2nd/3rd edition)
- Gives my Long Fangs a ride that's just the right size
- It can provide some much needed Anti-MEQ defence if someone gets too close
- It has the extra weapon to kill so it's harder to wreck the vehicle (usually).

If I were to get ANOTHER Razorback, probably lean towards the LasCannon version, simply because wolves lack the ranged Anti-Armour unless you go a little crazy on Long Fangs...

That;s because your Razorbacks are for your Long Fang units. For 250pts what can your army get:mad:

[newtoncain]

True. But I'm specifically using it to transport 5 man Sterguard squads, not Tactical Marines. I'm not doing the typical marine horde thing (and have no interest in painting that many models to some half-bottomed standard); I'm doing an expensive, elite (better painted and converted) army of far fewer models.

Basically, I've been readiing a lot of the Deathwatch RPG, and having painted up enough models to use as characters for the game, I've just decided to just go the whole hog and have a Deathwatch army, which I feel can be perfectly represented by elite choices from the Vanilla marine codex.

I've got a Pedro Kantor stand in to make my Sterguard scoring, two 10 man Sternguard "tactical squads" to form a gunline, backed up with Devastators, and now this "Fire Support" section of the army, which is designed to take out tanks/MC's.

So recommending Tactical marines in Rhino isn't going to work for this army, as my Deathwatch aren't cheap Tacticals; the question was quite specific: two Razorbacks designed to carry two 5 man Sternguard teams. They are primarily tasked with providing anti-tank fire support. What loadout should I use?

I was tempted by the LasPlas, but I don't think it will look aesthetic enough (this is an army that I want to look impressive as much as play well); LasPlas are just a bit of an ugly mishmash, so I refuse to use them on that principle, no matter how good it might be strategtically.

So: do I go with the TLAssault Cannon, which will put the hurt on pretty much everything except AV 14 tanks (and then only at close range), or with TL Lacannon, which will hit far harder and further, but only be good against tanks?

The army includes two 5 man squad of Sternguard with 3 with combi-meltas and 2 meltaguns; if I put those in the Razorbacks as my primary tank-killers, does that change people's recommended load out?

Then take the standard THB one.

[DarkLink]

If you're hunting tanks with melta, you need to be close. That means either being cheap (where you should take a Rhino and shoot out the top so you don't get easily counter assaulted), or taking a TLAC where the weapon's short range doesn't matter.

[DrWobbles]

Lasplas sit back and shoot for the most part, though. TLAC, on the other hand, can move 12" to shoot, which makes up for the shorter range of the cannon. TLAC's advantage over lasplas is greater mobility, which fits better in general with the BA theme.

Why do they have to sit back and shoot? they can still move 6" and fire at the same effectiveness, not to mention they're more durable. Don't get me wrong though, i love fast assault cannons too, i just don't think they are the only viable option on a razorback.

Lasplas has long range capability and superior anti-armor/anti-elite at short range, assualt cannons are solid all round good weapons at mid range.

[AngelsofDeath]

If you're hunting tanks with melta, you need to be close. That means either being cheap (where you should take a Rhino and shoot out the top so you don't get easily counter assaulted), or taking a TLAC where the weapon's short range doesn't matter.

This a a great tactic that few people use. 5 man Sternguard with 2 Meltas would be nice. MIght have to make a unit like this as well.

[DarkLink]

In general, or in this specific case?

Sitting back and shooting is what most SW razorback armies do. Lots of razorbacks, lots of long fangs, etc. Blood Angels, on the other hand, tend to be a faster and more aggressive army. Even if you're not necessarily moving in to assault, you want to take advantage of your mobility.



As for this specific case, his units are filled with Sternguard with lots of melta. Sternguard are a close to medium range fire support unit so you want to be mobile with them, both so you can get close to shoot your opponent but also so you can run away effectively. If the Razorback is going to be moving, then the TL Assault Cannon is better.