Teach me a new rule!

[Skragger]

Part of my long quest to become a FLGS owner is to know most of the rules to help solve rules debates in games and tournaments. I have a grounding in the 40K rules, enough to play a very causual game, but we still find ourselves referencing rules and RAI-ing it. A lot.

My goal is to learn the rules more indepth, maybe not memorize it all, but try to be closer to a walking encyclopedia (although we're still getting a copy of the rulebook leatherbound to look super cool). So heres my question for you guys!

Teach me a new rule! Any rule! Pick a rule from the BRB, or any codex, and explain it to me. Any rule at all, nothing is too simple or complex. Help me master this game! :cool:

[Culven]

Here's a simple one. Six sided dice, refered to as "D6". Are used to determine the outcome of shooting, assaults, and leadership checks, as well as random distances and other random itmes. Seems simple enough, but here's the important bit. Players should define what is a "cocked die" before the game and use that throughout. Even better would be a house rule. I have seen some players count anything that is not sitting level on the playing surface as cocked. Others have used a rule of setting another die on top. If they fall over, it is cocked and re-rolled. If not, the result stands. Another option is to have all dice rolled in a box so that there are no models or terrain to interfere. This also helps prevent dice from escaping and making a run for the door.

[Skragger]

Here's a simple one. Six sided dice, refered to as "D6". Are used to determine the outcome of shooting, assaults, and leadership checks, as well as random distances and other random itmes. Seems simple enough, but here's the important bit. Players should define what is a "cocked die" before the game and use that throughout. Even better would be a house rule. I have seen some players count anything that is not sitting level on the playing surface as cocked. Others have used a rule of setting another die on top. If they fall over, it is cocked and re-rolled. If not, the result stands. Another option is to have all dice rolled in a box so that there are no models or terrain to interfere. This also helps prevent dice from escaping and making a run for the door.

Good start! We tried the dice in a box thing, but it made waaay too much noise. None of that loving kthmp that a dice makes when it hits a green felt table cloth, more of a ker-CHUNK ker-CHUNK. How do you look at the definition of dice/die?

[MaltonNecromancer]

Assaults on a tank always hit rear armour.

Tank rear armour is often low; 10 or 11.

This is why players use Space Marine Sergeants who love their power fists; fisting the rear of a tank is the easiest way to pop it open.
The highest rear armour is 14, and it's usually only encountered on Land Raiders.

This is why people hate Land Raiders. Land Raiders' rears can't be fisted.

Necron Monoliths also have rear armour 14, but you don't see them as often.

[Skragger]

But Assaults on Walkers always hits front armour right? No fisting the large walking robots?

[dannyat2460]

Assaults on a tank always hit rear armour.

Tank rear armour is often low; 10 or 11.

This is why players use Space Marine Sergeants who love their power fists; fisting the rear of a tank is the easiest way to pop it open.
The highest rear armour is 14, and it's usually only encountered on Land Raiders.

This is why people hate Land Raiders. Land Raiders' rears can't be fisted.

Necron Monoliths also have rear armour 14, but you don't see them as often.

Wudnt say that we have 3 necron players that love there big chunks of cheese,

so sticking with necron monaliths, there living metal rule only ever allows 1D6 for armour penatration no matter what weapon your using against it melta=no, chain-fist=no, even the vindicare turbo penatrator=no.

this makes it one of the hardest things to kill in the game and to make it worse you cant glance it to death unless you have AP1 weapons (AP1 means you +1 to the damage roll) as you can never destroy all the weapons on it you can stun and shake it however.

[Nungunz]

When the word 'turn' is used in the rulebook or a codex, it always means 'player turn' unless otherwise specified. See page 9 in the rulebook.

[Xas]

Only stuff your oponent uses can possible be considered cheesy. YOU are allways useing a friendly army list in line with a fluffy background (in which slanesh deamon princes love to shepheard plaguemarines and obliterators into battle).

An addition to the above is that even if you win your oponent's list was cheesy as soon as he comes near to beating you.

List that beat you are by default ultra cheesy WAAC netlists produced by selling one's soul and prolly even sacrificing a virgin or two to the forces of evil...

[Skragger]

Only stuff your oponent uses can possible be considered cheesy. YOU are allways useing a friendly army list in line with a fluffy background (in which slanesh deamon princes love to shepheard plaguemarines and obliterators into battle).

An addition to the above is that even if you win your oponent's list was cheesy as soon as he comes near to beating you.

List that beat you are by default ultra cheesy WAAC netlists produced by selling one's soul and prolly even sacrificing a virgin or two to the forces of evil...

Ah! I believe this is one of the golden rules! Printed on page 1 of the rulebook! GW offers printed laminate posters of it for FLGS owners to hang on their walls.

[SombreBrotherhood]

even the vindicare turbo penatrator=no.

This is incorrect. The Vindicare Assassin's Turbo Penetrator round is specifically mentioned in the Necron codex as allowed.

[Skragger]

This is incorrect. The Vindicare Assassin's Turbo Penetrator round is specifically mentioned in the Necron codex as allowed.

Really? Did they have the penetrator back when the 'Cron dex was made? Never played GK before!



Teach me more rules!

[MaltonNecromancer]

But Assaults on Walkers always hits front armour right? No fisting the large walking robots?

Quite so; you can't Fist it if it can walk away.

Staying on the subject of power fists, they reduce your Initiative to 1, meaning sadly, you can only Fist something slowly; you can't just rush in there.

Now, the reason I bring this up is because in the past I've had some bother with the Furious Charge rule. The Furious Charge rule increases your Strength and Inititative by 1, and people I have played with have claimed that if you're Furious enough, you get to go that little bit quicker, but it's important to remember that it's not the case; no matter how Furious you are, you won't get to put your Fist into an enemy any faster. You always have to wait until everyone else has had their turn.

It's one of the reasons standard Terminator squads need their 2+ saves; if they didn't have them, they'd be killed before they could Fist a thing. It's also the reason for the dominance of the THSS combo; Thunder Hammers strike like Power Fists, meaning the 3++ keeps the squad alive long enough to Hammer things to death.

[Nungunz]

Beast, Cavalry, Monstrous Creatures, and bikes may not move to the upper levels of ruin unless there is a physical object (like a ramp) leading to them. The caveat to this is that units that move as jump infantry may (jetbikes, monsters with wings, etc) move up, but treat terrain as dangerous.

Another addendum to ruins. You may freely move through and assault through walls without having to move around them, though you still have to roll for difficult terrain as normal.

[Skragger]

Penetrators and Fisting Robots.. this is getting very strange... whats next? Someones going to talk about needle guns? Or what it means when an Ork goes WAAAGH after being fisted?


Another addendum to ruins. You may freely move through and assault through walls without having to move around them, though you still have to roll for difficult terrain as normal.

Thats one I never got before, we can just explode though the wall like Kool Aid Man? OH YEAH! DAKKA DAKKA?

[Gotthammer]

Thats one I never got before, we can just explode though the wall like Kool Aid Man? OH YEAH! DAKKA DAKKA?

Ha! I got caught by that one with a pennitent engine, so it at least was big enough to smash through (we did yell 'OH YEAH!').


A good way to learn the rules in more detail is to get a notebook and copy them out. I don't mean line by line, but read each section and summarise it page by page. For example (opening BRB at random) on page 62, it starts with Wrecks. I'd note that paragraph as:

pg 62: Wrecks - wrecked vehicles become difficult and dangerous terrain. Wrecked vehicles must be clearly marked.


I find it very good as is makes you pay attention to what the core bits of the rules are, and you'll notice things you didn't before.

[dannyat2460]

ya a lot of people forget that wrecks are difficult and DANGEROUS so good point on that one,

and as for the fisting,,, never ever say my big nob is fisting your sister

[Morgan Darkstar]

Template weapons like the flamer may be placed to hit units on the first or second floor of a ruin, but not the third floor unless you are jump infantry.

[Nungunz]

Template weapons like the flamer may be placed to hit units on the first or second floor of a ruin, but not the third floor unless you are jump infantry.

Expanding on this except with blast markers. When you target a model on specific floor of a ruin and the shot scatters off target, but still covers models on a different level, they are not hit.

Barrage weapons automatically hit the highest level of the ruin that they land over regardless of where the target model is.

[Xas]

Barrage weapons automatically hit the highest level of the ruin that they land over regardless of where the target model is.


that is if they are fired as barrage.
vehicle mounted ordnance barrage can choose to fire directly just like a normal ordnance weapon.

[flekkzo]

Beast, Cavalry, Monstrous Creatures, and bikes may not move to the upper levels of ruin unless there is a physical object (like a ramp) leading to them. The caveat to this is that units that move as jump infantry may (jetbikes, monsters with wings, etc) move up, but treat terrain as dangerous.

Another addendum to ruins. You may freely move through and assault through walls without having to move around them, though you still have to roll for difficult terrain as normal.

You may freely move through and assault through walls *IF* you both agree that you can do so. Fantastically stupid rule if you ask me. You can always agree to change the rules after all, so way write a suggestion for people to argue over?

I thought MC's can move up to the higher levels if their base can fit. Don't have the book with me:)

Also flamers can hit the same level or one level above or below. Just in case you have a flamer in one ruin firing into another ruin :) Or down onto the ground I guess:)

[Hive Mind]

p.83 contains the rules for moving up a level in a ruin and says that monstrous creatures can climb a level if they physically fit onto the level they're moving onto and roll high enough on their difficult terrain test. Moving up or down a level uses 3" of movement. It makes no mention of needing a ramp. I guess the 41st millenium isn't wheelchair accessible.

The rules for buildings say nothing about monstrous creatures and instead suggest that you agree with your opponent beforehand what can and cannot enter or move around in a building and how they do it.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg. 90
"...as soon as the game ends and before working out victory conditions, all units falling back are removed and count as destroyed."

[Wolfshade]

If two (or more) independent characters have joined a squad and the squad is destroyed, the two ICs are stuck in a unit until they are no longer in combat as you can only leave a squad in the movement phase

[Nungunz]

p.83 contains the rules for moving up a level in a ruin and says that monstrous creatures can climb a level if they physically fit onto the level they're moving onto and roll high enough on their difficult terrain test. Moving up or down a level uses 3" of movement. It makes no mention of needing a ramp. I guess the 41st millenium isn't wheelchair accessible.

I failed miserably here. MCs and jetbikes, and walkers may indeed climb. Completely my mistake. And this is the reason why threads like this exist. Page 83 has the rules.

[JxKxR]

I failed miserably here. MCs and jetbikes, and walkers may indeed climb. Completely my mistake. And this is the reason why threads like this exist. Page 83 has the rules.

At least you caught it! I was waiting to get off work and check that in the book because I didn't think it was right.:)

[wkz]

You may freely move through and assault through walls *IF* you both agree that you can do so. Fantastically stupid rule if you ask me. You can always agree to change the rules after all, so way write a suggestion for people to argue over?
...
Also flamers can hit the same level or one level above or below. Just in case you have a flamer in one ruin firing into another ruin :) Or down onto the ground I guess:)

Note that most players declare walled terrain as area terrain. Under the rules for area terrain, YES you can smash through walls, as declaring it as area terrain uses all the rules for area terrain. Technically, both players DID agree to this... sort of.

However, you can always declare the wall itself as IMPASSABLE terrain (with your opponent's agreement too). If done so, nobody can "Hulk smash!!" through that wall, even if its the Avatar of the Bloody Fisted God of War itself...


Lastly, be careful here: a flamer aimed one floor above or below will NOT affect units in other floors. You can't burn the guys the 2nd floor when you're busy burning the 1st floor...


Another thing a lot of people miss: When a unit is charging another unit, Difficult and Dangerous terrain checks are taken as usual for the charging squad... ... but NOT taken for the defending squad's pile-in move. In fact, once engaged both squads ignore Difficult and Dangerous right until AFTER the Retreat/Consolidate moves are complete.

[wkz]

If two (or more) independent characters have joined a squad and the squad is destroyed, the two ICs are stuck in a unit until they are no longer in combat as you can only leave a squad in the movement phase
Wrong: the ICs die with the squad.
The only time the ICs are considered separate from the squad they joined is during "making close combat attacks". In all other cases (including failing and getting run down), they are part of the squad.

[AngelsofDeath]

A Twin-Linked Flamer re-rolls to wound since the template hits all models it covers.

Space Marine Codex and Blood Angel Codex has an upgrade for free from the Multi-Melta to a Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer for free. So toasty!!!!

[wkz]

A Twin-Linked Flamer re-rolls to wound since the template hits all models it covers.

Space Marine Codex and Blood Angel Codex has an upgrade for free from the Multi-Melta to a Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer for free. So toasty!!!!
Hey, don't forget the Wolves and their Gray Hunters!! They have freebies too!!

[Wolfshade]

Wrong: the ICs die with the squad.
The only time the ICs are considered separate from the squad they joined is during "making close combat attacks". In all other cases (including failing and getting run down), they are part of the squad.

Yeah exactly they are still part of the squad even if the rest of the squad has died, even if out of coherency from each other. And can only be independent in a Movement phase (ie when they are no longer in combat) Not sure how I'm wrong as we both seem to be agreeing on the same point :s

[SeattleDV8]

BRB FAQ ,Errata
"Page 71 – Ramming a skimmer.
The first sentence should be changed to:
Skimmers that are not immobilised or stunned may try to
dodge […].

[wkz]

Yeah exactly they are still part of the squad even if the rest of the squad has died, even if out of coherency from each other. And can only be independent in a Movement phase (ie when they are no longer in combat) Not sure how I'm wrong as we both seem to be agreeing on the same point :s
Oh, sorry. I thought the squad was destroyed IN CLOSE COMBAT (read as: sweeping advance). In that case, unless you have ATSKNF, your ICs will die with your troops.

Also, it seems from your statement you did not know this: Did you know ICs can join OTHER ICs to make a 2 IC unit?!?

Units IC cannot join is "vehicles" and "units that are always a single model"... then it goes on to give the "IC can join ICs" exception, all explained in pg 48.
...
Pity, nobody like Mephiston enough to join up with him (he IS an always single model non-IC unit). Must be some kinda personality problem or something...

[SeattleDV8]

Hmmm maybe the fangs..and the smell of rotting blood?

[WillyRapier]

This is incorrect. The Vindicare Assassin's Turbo Penetrator round is specifically mentioned in the Necron codex as allowed.

I'm taking a look through my 'ron codex and cant find this mentioned; can you tell me which page in the codex this is on, please? As a Grey Knight player, this is quite a useful piece of information :D

[SombreBrotherhood]

@ Willy Rapier: This comes from playing w/ a Necron player...I don't own the codex, but I'd specifically check out the text concerning "Living Metal," perhaps in the Monolith section? I believe the only other exception made is for Ordnance Weapons, they still roll two dice and keep the highest when determining armor penetration.

[SeattleDV8]

That was on an old FAQ, not the Necron Codex.

[Lerra]

The first printing of the Necron codex has slightly different wording on a lot of the rules than second or later printings. The biggest change is Living Metal. The first printing is very rare, though.

[Hive Mind]

Sweeping Advance uses the majority Initiative value to calculate the result and not the highest value unless there is no majority value in which case use the highest.

[flekkzo]

Note that most players declare walled terrain as area terrain. Under the rules for area terrain, YES you can smash through walls, as declaring it as area terrain uses all the rules for area terrain. Technically, both players DID agree to this... sort of.

However, you can always declare the wall itself as IMPASSABLE terrain (with your opponent's agreement too). If done so, nobody can "Hulk smash!!" through that wall, even if its the Avatar of the Bloody Fisted God of War itself...


I was thinking of the two first sentences under "Walls, doors, ladders and lateral thinking" on p83 on the topic of ruins:

Should troops be able to move through walls if there is no door? That's really down to what you and your opponent decide.

This just makes everything confusing, you shouldn't need a laundry list of "which way do we do it today?" before a game. I rather have rules and then you can agree upon exceptions instead.

[wkz]

....
This just makes everything confusing, you shouldn't need a laundry list of "which way do we do it today?" before a game. I rather have rules and then you can agree upon exceptions instead.

Erm...
Rules: you can move through walls.
Exceptions you and your opponent agree on: Not through intact, constant, "cannot see through" walls. Those are Impassable terrain.

Is it that confusing? (plus the above fulfills your "I rather have rules and then you can agree upon exceptions instead" statement)

[Skragger]

Yeah exactly they are still part of the squad even if the rest of the squad has died, even if out of coherency from each other. And can only be independent in a Movement phase (ie when they are no longer in combat) Not sure how I'm wrong as we both seem to be agreeing on the same point :s

So my understanding is that if their entire squad is killed, they remain part of that squad until their movement phase, and at that point they become ICs again?

My shooting, I wipe out the entire squad but the IC = not IC
My assault = not IC
Your movement = IC

[wkz]

So my understanding is that if their entire squad is killed, they remain part of that squad until their movement phase, and at that point they become ICs again?

My shooting, I wipe out the entire squad but the IC = not IC
My assault = not IC
Your movement = IC

Something like that... remember the rule about IC joining units: (from memory) "ICs may only join units during the movement phase... Once part of that unit they... cannot leave until the next movement phase"

[chipstar1]

This is incorrect. The Vindicare Assassin's Turbo Penetrator round is specifically mentioned in the Necron codex as allowed.

Uh, where is this specifically mentioned?

[WillyRapier]

I'd specifically check out the text concerning "Living Metal," perhaps in the Monolith section?

Wow...i didnt think, when looking up the Monolith's Living Metal rule, i should look there. At least the "Ask a simple question, get a stupid answer" rule still exists :rolleyes:


That was on an old FAQ, not the Necron Codex.

@SeattleDV8: Thanks, I had a feeling it was an FAQ, but wanted to check before i played Necrons.

@chipstar1: As the man said; FAQ not Codex rule. And being an old FAQ as well, you might have an argument on your hands if you want to use it. I think the latest codex's Living Metal rule is prescriptive enough to mean that it doesnt work any more, and you'll need something else to take the monolith down.

[Wolfshade]

Something like that... remember the rule about IC joining units: (from memory) "ICs may only join units during the movement phase... Once part of that unit they... cannot leave until the next movement phase"

That's it exactly. Only in the movement phase

[EnglishInquisition]

As I understood it, "Living Metal" denies extra dice for armour penetration but when the weapons basic attack is 'x' dice, then these aren't discounted. Thus Meltabombs get their full dice as do tankbusta bombs. I certainly intend to shoot any Monoliths I see with 4d6 worth of armour penetration!

Most Important rule is right at the beginning of the rule book - page 2, it's even boxed off and highlighted!

[Morgan Darkstar]

As I understood it, "Living Metal" denies extra dice for armour penetration but when the weapons basic attack is 'x' dice, then these aren't discounted. Thus Meltabombs get their full dice as do tankbusta bombs. I certainly intend to shoot any Monoliths I see with 4d6 worth of armour penetration!

Most Important rule is right at the beginning of the rule book - page 2, it's even boxed off and highlighted!

in that case do chainfists work against monoliths? as they roll 2d6 for armour pen, not extra dice?

[wkz]

in that case do chainfists work against monoliths? as they roll 2d6 for armour pen, not extra dice?

If you agree meltabombs work, chainfists will work too...

[Gir]

Wow...i didnt think, when looking up the Monolith's Living Metal rule, i should look there. At least the "Ask a simple question, get a stupid answer" rule still exists :rolleyes:



@SeattleDV8: Thanks, I had a feeling it was an FAQ, but wanted to check before i played Necrons.

@chipstar1: As the man said; FAQ not Codex rule. And being an old FAQ as well, you might have an argument on your hands if you want to use it. I think the latest codex's Living Metal rule is prescriptive enough to mean that it doesnt work any more, and you'll need something else to take the monolith down.

The ruling no longer exists. So the new turbo penetrator does 1D6+3 to a monolith.

[WillyRapier]

The ruling no longer exists. So the new turbo penetrator does 1D6+3 to a monolith.

Unfortunately, as much as it pains me to admit it (grey knight player with a vindi in my army), Gir is right here. Until there is a new ruling which supersedes current rules, the Living Metal rule is clear, with nothing to negate it for turbo pen, and therefore it would be 3+ 1D6 rending for AP. Lest we forget the rending part, which still means S4-S12, so you cant even glance(!).

[SeattleDV8]

No , you don't get to add the rend's D3
As Gir said, 1D6+3 is all you get.

[w7west]

Grey knights are psychers until something bad happens then they are innocent little bunnies other than the squad leader.

[WillyRapier]

No , you don't get to add the rend's D3
As Gir said, 1D6+3 is all you get.
Hmm...yeah, i guess the additional D3 for rending is an additional dice for armour penetration. kinda harsh, but as that's how the rules put it :mad:



Grey knights are psychers until something bad happens then they are innocent little bunnies other than the squad leader.
Or, to rephrase, Grey Knights are psychers who combine their psychic powers with their Justicar(squad leader), who actually "casts" the power, and therefore any backlash comes on him. When the Justicar is dead, you nominate randomly the "focus" for the squad, and he takes any backlash from the cast should it fail.
Same principle, but more accurately put... ;)

[Wolfshade]

Or, to rephrase, Grey Knights are psychers who combine their psychic powers with their Justicar(squad leader), who actually "casts" the power, and therefore any backlash comes on him. When the Justicar is dead, you nominate randomly the "focus" for the squad, and he takes any backlash from the cast should it fail.
Same principle, but more accurately put... ;)

Well aside from when using the Animus Speculum

[WillyRapier]

Well aside from when using the Animus Speculum

The Animus Speculum isnt used by a Grey Knight ;). And unfortunately, it's a relatively safe bet that the FAQ will clarify that a unit of grey knights counts as one psyker for the Animus. Though for the moment, yes, you could argue that the animus adds +1 for each psyker (hence grey knight model) within 12". Sit your culexus within 12" of three combat squads, and the animus becomes Assault 17...

[steelmage99]

Here is a rule to keep in mind;

While a given unit is generally only allowed to assault the unit it shot at (if it shot in the Shooting Phase), you ARE allowed to initiate an assault on a unit that was disembarked by said shooting.

Wreck or Explode a Rhino and you can assault the squad that came out.

This rule is tucked away in the "Effects of damage results on passengers" on page 67.

[Wolfshade]

Here is a rule to keep in mind;

While a given unit is generally only allowed to assault the unit it shot at (if it shot in the Shooting Phase), you ARE allowed to initiate an assault on a unit that was disembarked by said shooting.

Wreck or Explode a Rhino and you can assault the squad that came out.

This rule is tucked away in the "Effects of damage results on passengers" on page 67.

I really should have my rulebook at work :( I want to read that now! But that would save the problems associated with do I shoot or assault that transport?


The Animus Speculum isnt used by a Grey Knight . And unfortunately, it's a relatively safe bet that the FAQ will clarify that a unit of grey knights counts as one psyker for the Animus. Though for the moment, yes, you could argue that the animus adds +1 for each psyker (hence grey knight model) within 12". Sit your culexus within 12" of three combat squads, and the animus becomes Assault 17...
Trying to claim that would be too cheesy (even for me) though I don't want to start the whole RAI vs. RAW debate *again*