We'll Be Back

[Turner]

The Premise: Nercons that are swept in close combat still take their "We'll Be Back" roll.



Part 1. Examining the Necron special rule "We'll Be Back"

(Page 13 of the Necron Codex)
"A Necron cannot self-repair if it was destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour save or any weapon whose strength is twice the toughness of the Necron concerned. This can be over-ridden by the Resurrection Orb (see the Necron Armoury). Additionally, the self-repair ability only works if the wounded Necron is within 6" of another model of the same type, although not necessarily of the same unit."

(Yeah, I know a lot of you people probably saying to yourselves "that can't be right, what about the ap 2 and ap 1 weapons? It's not just close combat attacks, it's anything that doesn't allow an armour save.... Nope, destroyed by a close combat weapon (also not attack, weapon, specifically weapon) that allows no Armour save. Go ahead and check that out, I'll wait. See? Anyways...)



Part 2: The Second to Last Laugh
Space Wolf special character "Lukas the Trickster" is fighting 10 Necron Warriors.
Lukas the Trickster takes his final wound and his special rule "The Last Laugh" triggers.
Both players roll a die, the Space Wolf player rolls a 6 and the Necron player rolls a 1.

(Page 52 of the Space Wolf codex)
The Last Laugh: "...Should Lukas ever be removed from play, both players roll a dice - if the Space Wolves player rolls equal to or higher than his opponent, all models in base contact with him are also removed from play as casualties, locked in a temporal prison with nothing but Lukas' last howls of laughter to keep them company for eternity."

Oh, wait, ummm well I guess that's it. I'm actually mistaken. I was going to go ahead and have this grand argument showing that Lukas the Trickster's special rule is a close combat weapon that doesn't allow an armour save, not just an attack that removes them from play and the Necron Warriors would still be able to use their special rule "We'll Be Back" but I guess, wait, wait a second, page 3? Of the Space Wolves FAQ/Errata? Well hold on a second let me check,

(Page 3 of the Space Wolves FAQ/Errata)
"Q. Are models with an ability to return to play (e.g. Necrons, St. Celestine, etc) able to use their special rule even after being removed from play by The Last Laugh? (page 52)
A. Yes they can. It sounds odd but their special rule works just fine."

Huh, well I'll be...



Which brings us to the final scene, the last act, some other metaphor.

Part 3: Sweeping Advances

A unit of Necron Warriors are assaulted by (choose one of the following: Space Marines, Orks, Tyranids, Guardsmen, Grey Knights, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos Space Marines, Ninjas, Chaos Daemons, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Witch Hunters) and lose close combat by a lot, fail their moral check and the whole sweeping advance triggers. Both players roll a die, add their initiative and the (generic enemy player) wins the roll off. What happens next?

Main Rule Book, Page 40.
"If the winner's total is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance. The falling back unit is destroyed. We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over."

This, this is the spot where I make my grand argument that the Necron Warriors can still take their "We'll Be Back Rolls" because they weren't destroyed by a close combat weapon that doesn't allow armour saves or any weapon were the strength of the attack was double their toughness of the Necron in question. They were, in fact, swept which states the unit is removed immediately... oh wait that right there, yeah I guess that would, wait unless otherwise specified? Wait hold on, no save or other special rule can rescue, there we go, yeah I guess... but that seems to fall under the same category as Lukas the Trickster's special rule. The Necron warriors weren't "destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour save" but destroyed by a special rule that was triggered. Well I can always argue the "rules as written" because it says right in the main rule book, page 40, for sweeping advance "no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over." Oh wait, actually I can't argue that... because if I use the "rules as written" argument then someone else will simply argue that at the beginning of that very same sentence it says "Unless otherwise specified," which clearly refers to either the fact that the Necron Warriors weren't "destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour save or any weapon whose strength is twice the toughness of the Necron concerned." or the Space Wolf FAQ/Erratta concerning the Last Laugh move that Lukas the Trickster uses... We'll I can always use the direct contradiction argument, so I just need to make sure theirs no direct contradiction... hmmm so the Necron Warriors are removed immediately as per the main rule book but it says a Necron cannot self-repair if it was destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour Save or any weapon whose strength is twice the toughness of the Necron concerned. We that's simple enough, the Necron Warriors are removed immediately, because they were destroyed by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour Save or any weapon whose strength is twice the toughness of the Necron concerned. Oh wait, no, no actually they weren't... so then the Necron Warriors can self repair, which means they remain on the tabletop and laid on their side to show that it's damaged... and make their we'll be back rolls....

Now I'm confused, anyone have any thoughts? Seems to me Necrons with the "We'll Be Back Rule" should be taking it if swept...

Also, no. "That's the way it's always been played" is not a legitimate argument. I met a group of Mech IG players who played heavy stubbers (like they were going out of style) as str3 ap6 heavy3 then when questioned about it they said that's the way it was in 4th ed. and they didn't know it was changed in 5th ed. (Also, I bought a 4th IG codex, it's still str4 ap6 heavy3 so either these IG players played all of 4th ed wrong or they were just told somewhere down the line that it was that way.)

[SeattleDV8]

Sigh.....not again.
WWB saves models.
SA removes Units.

WWB is a special rule
SA ignores special rules, unless the special rules mention SA (for example ATSKNF)

SA removes the entire unit ,downed or not.
As the downed models are still part of the unit, as per the monolith teleportal rules in the codex and FAQ's.

Please GW, hurry up and get the new Nercon Codex out, so we don't have to have this pointless discussion again.

[Turner]

Ah, I see. Nevermind :D

[Whoop!]

I believe that your interpretation is correct, swept units can still try for WBB, but they have to be within 6" of the same type, or 18 from a Spyder, and then they come back with that unit. The unit is still gone as far as kill points go though.

I got necrons in my heart...It's cold.

[dannyat2460]

DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DONT START THIS AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!

The only real answer to this is to make a house rule that covers it

or if you dont take my word for it look for the other thread

[Whoop!]

I just don't see where it states that SA is not effected by special rules.

I will go read the other thread, but l just reread the codex, BRB, and FAQ and see nothing to take away the WBB rule.

[SeattleDV8]

BRB pg. 40
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."

[wkz]

BRB pg. 40
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."
This quote jumped to mind pretty much immediately as "I think I'll need this". when I saw the title of this thread in the main page... heh.

[Brad]

ok then if they are removed, consider this....

In theshooting phase a lord with res orb nearby, 4 crons die from shhoting...then in assault phase the squad is SA, do these 4 crons shot to death get there WBB? i say yes, cos at the time when they died they met all pre-requisite rules to get there WBB....

Hmmm.... as a cron player I say thank god i got puppies to play until a new codex comes..

[gcsmith]

Nope as they are still part of the unit wihich died due to SA

[Whoop!]

But it says a necron can WBB if it's unit is destroyed, it just joins another unit that is within 6"(18" of SPyder) The whole UNIT arguement is flawed and does not effect necrons the same way since they do not always join their original unit when they WBB. If they did have to join that unit I would agree, but they don't so wether the unit is destroyed is immaterial.

The codex OTHERWISE SPECIFIES,it says if necrons are ....removed as a casualty. This states that it happens outside of normal removal practice, therefore it specifies.

I wouldn't argue this at a game, but I would definitly roll off for it. No one has made their case here.

Come on New Codex!!!!

[Lerra]

BRB pg. 40
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."

WBB doesn't rescue the unit - it still gets swept and the unit is destroyed. WBB just affects what happens to the unit after it's been swept.

[Paul]

BRB pg. 40
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."

The unit is not being rescued. Consider:

1) Necrons lose combat and are swept.

2) Unit is removed as casualties.

3) Utilizing Necrons' special rule, replaces "Removed as casualties" with relevant text from WBB.

4) Necrons get WBB rolls next turn.

The save is not preventing sweeping advance. The save is preventing models from being removed from the table.

[SeattleDV8]

So the 'special rule' saves them but it doesn't count as saving them??
Sorry thats silly, if the Necrons suffer SA they are gone, off the table, removed from the game.
No models or debris left to WWB because they are gone.
Point 2 is incorrect, they are not casualities, they are removed from the game.


Deal with it until the new Codex.

[Paul]

So the 'special rule' saves them but it doesn't count as saving them??
Sorry thats silly, if the Necrons suffer SA they are gone, off the table, removed from the game.
No models or debris left to WWB because they are gone.
Point 2 is incorrect, they are not casualities, they are removed from the game.


Deal with it until the new Codex.

I don't play Necrons, I play Guard.

So the unit is not removed as casualties; what're they removed as? Minor injuries? Put in time-out? Decided to take a break?

[Orminah]

The more I read this, the more I think in favor of the "WBB saves you" side of the argument, because of how WBB can move models around.

[SeattleDV8]

I don't play Necrons, I play Guard.

So the unit is not removed as casualties; what're they removed as? Minor injuries? Put in time-out? Decided to take a break?

Oh aren't you cute/clever...er...wait.. nope

Well you could read the rules on SA BRB pg. 40, but if thats too much trouble

"The falling back unit is destroyed."
"The destroyed unit is removed immediadely."
No casualties, just destroyed and removed, the entire unit downed or not.
Since WWB cannot save them there is nothing left on the table to WWB.

[talos]

I argued that necrons that await WBB before the unit is swept can still roll for wbb if there are necrons within 6" many times in this forum. I've even called GW in Britain for an answer and they confirmed it.

However having units of warriors that close during CC, can lead to multi assault, so I advise against it. Deploy them as far as you can and you can never have to argue about wbb and you can't be multi assaulted. 2 birds 1 stone...

[Whoop!]

I agree, the only time this should be an issue is if there is a Spyder within 12".

I agree that the SA unit is destroyed, but the models get their WBB if another unit is close enough. They become part of that unit. This does not save the SA unit from being destroyed. The SA unit is gone, and it's kill points are awarded. The models from the SA unit are allowed to WBB into a existing unit if it is within 6".

Hey Seattle, dont be (so rude) Uncalled for.

[Demonus]

I think the question is, why can necrons make a WBB roll vs Lukas the Trickster (who removes them from play), and not any other special circumstance that removes them from play.

[Paul]

Oh aren't you cute/clever...er...wait.. nope

Well you could read the rules on SA BRB pg. 40, but if thats too much trouble

"The falling back unit is destroyed."
"The destroyed unit is removed immediadely."
No casualties, just destroyed and removed, the entire unit downed or not.
Since WWB cannot save them there is nothing left on the table to WWB.

I'm serious. The word casualty has a distinct meaning in the English language.

A destroyed unit (using military speak) is a unit which has suffered 100% personnel and equipment casualties.

A unit of US Marines who are "destroyed [and] removed [from the universe] immediately" are still casualties as far as the English language is concerned.

ESPECIALLY if they are cut down by angry men with chain-swords whilst falling back. Yep, those marines are on a casualty list. As would be the Necron unit, which has suffered 100% casualties.

[SeattleDV8]

Yes in the real world/ dictionary version 'casualties' have a wide usage.
40K isn't the real world.
BRB pg. 24 tells us that casualties are from unsaved wounds.
And it doesn't matter any way as WWB is a 'special rule' and no special rule can save the unit from SA.

[Paul]

Yes in the real world/ dictionary version 'casualties' have a wide usage.
40K isn't the real world.
BRB pg. 24 tells us that casualties are from unsaved wounds.
And it doesn't matter any way as WWB is a 'special rule' and no special rule can save the unit from SA.

I's not saving the unit from SA.

The unit is wiped and grants a kill point.

The models stand up and join the nearest unit.

[DarkLink]

You're trying to argue on semantics.

SA kills the unit, and you can't use special rules to bring them back to life. You don't get saves, you don't get FNP, you don't get WBB.

[talos]

................................................

[Paul]

You're trying to argue on semantics.

SA kills the unit, and you can't use special rules to bring them back to life. You don't get saves, you don't get FNP, you don't get WBB.

You aren't bringing the unit back to life. You are adding models to another unit.

And yes, I am arguing semantics, because semantics is the foundation of language and language is used to write and understand the rules.

[Whoop!]

I agree with you Paul, as the rule states no special rules may save the UNIT, but WBB effects models not units.

This is the second thread I have seen about WBB, and neither side is getting any traction. I don't know why it's not in the FAQ.

Give up, these knuckle heads will not see reason, they have made up their minds. If you play against one just roll off.

I am also a knuckle head so don't get your panties in a bunch. If you get the privilege of playing against my Crons there will be a roll off before we even start to play.(I'd highly suggest this so no one gets angry during a game, get it out there before any dice are rolled!)

[Deathula]

From my understanding the models will be removed from the table and put away out of the game. That unit is kaput. WBB to bring models from the other unit would state the unit/soilder, whatever, still exist for that to happen, but essiently that particular unit has phased out .

[Paul]

From my understanding the models will be removed from the table and put away out of the game. That unit is kaput. WBB to bring models from the other unit would state the unit/soilder, whatever, still exist for that to happen, but essiently that particular unit has phased out .

Removing a model from the table and putting it away is what happens after a boltgun round hits it as well if you fail your save. The model is kaput then, too.

And what rules justification is there to say the unit no longer exists and has phased out?

[SeattleDV8]

Removing a model from the table and putting it away is what happens after a boltgun round hits it as well if you fail your save. The model is kaput then, too.

And what rules justification is there to say the unit no longer exists and has phased out?

The sweeping advance rules.

[Necron2.0]

As I said in the other thread on this exact same topic, sweeping advance does not necessarily mean any figure is destroyed. It means they are swept off the battle field and removed from play. Sure, they could be destroyed, but it is just as likely that they are scattered and no longer represent a credible threat. It is just as if they had escaped off the board. You cannot use WBB to bring units back into the fight after they've run away. No 'cron has "died," but the opposing player still gets a kill point and/or a pain token and the escaping units counts against phase out.

[Paul]

As I said in the other thread on this exact same topic, sweeping advance does not necessarily mean any figure is destroyed. It means they are swept off the battle field and removed from play. Sure, they could be destroyed, but it is just as likely that they are scattered and no longer represent a credible threat. It is just as if they had escaped off the board. You cannot use WBB to bring units back into the fight after they've run away. No 'cron has "died," but the opposing player still gets a kill point and/or a pain token and the escaping units counts against phase out.



Why would a Necron flee the field? They do not phase out until after they are destroyed, and that is only if they cannot self-repair sufficiently. Ostensibly, they will.

And I have already shown that yes, it does give up a kill point and the lost models do indeed count against phase out.


The sweeping advance rules.

Where do they mention phase out? And the wording isn't so different from Lukas the Trickster's yet Necrons get WBB against it.

[Whoop!]

Necrons flee, just like anyone else. But when caught up by a sweeping advance the UNIT is destroyed, and the MODELS only get a WBB role if another unit of the same type is within 6", or a Tomb Spyder is within 12" and another of the same unit type is on the board.

The UNIT is destroyed, kill points are awarded, there is no way to get the unit back. Models that get their WBB roll after their unit is destroyed come back into play attaching to the closest unit, but that unit must be within 6"(or 12" of a spyder).

I can clearly see why both sides are argueing, I just don't see why you aren't arguing on my side!

[addamsfamily36]

Ok. i got some questions for the board. i chose to ignore the first WBB discussion, but it popping up again got my interest and pulled out my BRB and my Necrons codex.

so here are my points/questions:

under SA rules it does say 'unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage' pretty simple. But the rule does not say a rule must negate Sweeping advance by saying "this rule ignores sweeping advance". it just has to specify a reason for how the unit could be saved or survive afterwards.

go to WBB rule:

any necron that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty , remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it' damaged. these necrons are debris only yadda yadda yadda.

Now in both cases being dropped to 0 wounds or removed from the tabletop results in the same thing a case in which a necron is being removed as a casulty. And before i get picked up on about Sweeping advance not being casualties, the wording for this rule has a blurb bit before it about how we can imagine that the unit is hacked down left wounded as casulties or killed or fleeing etc etc. it goes on to say the destroyed unit (so it is counted as being a destroyed) is then removed immediately (like you would with a normal result of destroying a unit in combat with the exception that you can't take saves against it etc.

I know that loads of people are not going to agree with that, but i think that thats how the rule could be interpreted. i would like to state that is NOT an argument for "rules as intended", and that i am open to both sides of the argument and like a good debate.

so to sum up, WBB is exactly what someone said. "it's bringing models back to life" as a fantasy player who has played many undead armies iv'e seen it happen a lot lol. I can see how the unit is destroyed, but i can also see how WBB states a model otherwise removed as being a casualty from being destroyed would bring the unit back If there are the correct parameters i.e tomb spider or another unit within distance.

P.s in regards to a unit suffering casualties from shooting, these necrons are treated as debris and not part of any unit anymore so even if their original unit is cut down by SA they still get WBB and there is not rule to my knowledge that prevents that.

[SeattleDV8]

Ok. i got some questions for the board. i chose to ignore the first WBB discussion, but it popping up again got my interest and pulled out my BRB and my Necrons codex.

so here are my points/questions:

under SA rules it does say 'unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage' pretty simple. But the rule does not say a rule must negate Sweeping advance by saying "this rule ignores sweeping advance". it just has to specify a reason for how the unit could be saved or survive afterwards.
Except we have an example of a special rule that does work against SA , ATSKNF, which clearly states it works against SA.
WWB does not have that level of specific over-rule.


Now in both cases being dropped to 0 wounds or removed from the tabletop results in the same thing a case in which a necron is being removed as a casulty. And before i get picked up on about Sweeping advance not being casualties, the wording for this rule has a blurb bit before it about how we can imagine that the unit is hacked down left wounded as casulties or killed or fleeing etc etc.
Fluff is great but it's not rules.


so to sum up, WBB is exactly what someone said. "it's bringing models back to life" as a fantasy player who has played many undead armies iv'e seen it happen a lot lol. I can see how the unit is destroyed, but i can also see how WBB states a model otherwise removed as being a casualty from being destroyed would bring the unit back If there are the correct parameters i.e tomb spider or another unit within distance.
Fantasy is a great game, I'm really looking forward to the new Tomb Kings.
But the Fantasy rules have nothing to do with 40K.



P.s in regards to a unit suffering casualties from shooting, these necrons are treated as debris and not part of any unit anymore so even if their original unit is cut down by SA they still get WBB and there is not rule to my knowledge that prevents that.
If they are not still part of the unit then you could not teleport them though the monolith.
The Monolith rules state that the downed models are part of the unit.
Several FAQ's also state that the downed models are part of the unit.
Again no special rule can save the unit.

[Whoop!]

I would agree that they cannot be brought through a Monolith, but WBB doesn't require a monolith.

The UNIT is NOT saved, it is destroyed! The models can come back to life attached to a different unit of the same type, as long as that unit is within 6" of the destroyed Cron. Why do you not get that nuance? This also happens with models whose unit is destroyed by any other way.

The WBB rule CLEARLY states what it cannot save models from, and it does not state SA, nor was SA added in the FAQ.

[addamsfamily36]

Except we have an example of a special rule that does work against SA , ATSKNF, which clearly states it works against SA.
WWB does not have that level of specific over-rule.


Thats because ATSKNF happens during the sweeping advance. View WBB as happening after and it works completely differently. The rule even states nothing can save them at 'this stage' there is no rule to say they can't be saved after. and considering WBB happens after, (sort of likeputting the lego piece of necrons back together), i find it hard to compare the two rules of WBB and ATSKNF.

But i do see your point. I'm just saying that because one rule does it one way, doesn't mean all rules have to follow the same.


Fluff is great but it's not rules.

ok which part of the rule is rule and fluff? clearly there are pieces at the sart of the paragraph which are part of the rule and then at the end also, but they are not highlighted in bold. no italics. nothing. its in the rules section. whats to stop a player from using the whole paragraph?


Fantasy is a great game, I'm really looking forward to the new Tomb Kings.
But the Fantasy rules have nothing to do with 40K.


Lighten up. It was a reference to expecting the unexpected. The whole point of WBB is we'll be back! it was a comparison just adding some flavour to the mix but ok warhammer out.


If they are not still part of the unit then you could not teleport them though the monolith.
The Monolith rules state that the downed models are part of the unit.
Several FAQ's also state that the downed models are part of the unit.
Again no special rule can save the unit.

I didn't mention any monolith. besides FAQ's are FAQ's Erratas are rules.

[SeattleDV8]

Fine, you want to play by your house rules and do not care what the rules say.
There is no point in debating with you.
If you do not treat the GW FAQ's as rules I, and most people will not play you.
Yes WBB happens after SA, sometimes the next turn ,sometimes the turn after that (player turns)
When WBB comes around there is nothing left to WBB, as the entire unit has been removed.
The monolith rules (you know, in the Necron codex) state that the downed model are still part of the unit.


Whoop: you might want to read the rules before tring to tell us what they are.
So far every one of your posts have had nothing even close to actual rules, which is why I have not responded to you.
You also have it backwards, WBB has to mention SA in order for it to work.
SA alreadly tells us no special rules can rescue the unit., the entire unit downed or not.
WWB and teleporting though the monolith are very much tied together.

[talos]

The rule you say happens AFTER WBB rolls are made. At THAT time, the formely downed necrons have been already attached to a unit. Before WBB rolls downed necrons don't belong to any unit. That is clear because you don't know which unit the resurrected models will attach themselves until you roll for WBB.

[Hive Mind]

I love aggressive RAW guys insisting that their RAI is RAW even when the RAW clearly say they're utterly wrong. It's hilarious.

[SeattleDV8]

Obvious troll is obvious.

Talos
Necron FAQ
""Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed
unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to
teleport the unit during the current move."
"A Necron unit falls back, having been beaten in
close combat by a unit with power weapons.
However, there is a resurrection orb nearby. To
keep things simple, when the casualties are
suffered, assess whether they are in range of the
resurrection orb. If they are, lay them down and
move them with the unit"."
"Q. If a Necron unit teleports through the
Monolith’s portal, do the unit’s damaged
Necrons get to re-roll their WBB rolls even if they
are no longer within 6" of a Necron model of the
same type?
A. Yes, as long as they were able to roll in the
first place, they get another chance."

Notice in each of these cases the downed models are still part of the parent unit.
Yes, after the WBB roll they could join a new unit , but is the only time that they stop being a part of their original unit.
And it is much too late at that point to save the unit.

[Hive Mind]

Labelling someone that disagrees with you as a troll is the laziest, most childish tactic that the internet has to offer.

The entire unit is destroyed and removed, so what? There's no debate about that. Destroying a unit with the Necron special rule doesn't mean the models are removed unless they're removed by something that WBB specifically doesn't apply to; a unit of Warriors mowed down by rapid-firing Marines is destroyed but the models in the unit remain until WBB rolls have been taken.

Since Codex rules (WBB) trump Rulebook rules (SA), at the beginning of the next Necron turn the models make their WBB rolls if eligible to and join another unit if successful. The unit that they initially belonged to is still destroyed however and counts for kill-points.

Of course none of this applies if you simply invent a rule that says there must be an explicit Codex over-ruling of the Rulebook. But then that's not RAW, is it?

[SeattleDV8]

Oh, so this was a mature debating point?

I love aggressive RAW guys insisting that their RAI is RAW even when the RAW clearly say they're utterly wrong. It's hilarious.
No point, no rules just a snarky comment, if the troll shoes fit...

SA states
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."
So no WBB does not trump the SA rules.
I didn't invent a rule, I simply read the rules.

By the way Mr. RAW, where is that quote from the rules that Codex trumps the BRB??
You dodged that question in our last debate.

[Whoop!]

Hopefully we will have a new codex soon, and this will be moot

DV8 Why is your interpretation more valid than mine? There is not a consensus on which way the rules should be interpreted. In this type situation why not roll off?

NO SPECIAL RULES MAY SAVE THIS UNIT, unit is destroyed, kill points awarded, rule fulfilled. Then WBB happens with 'Crons joining OTHER unit.

Why so condescending? I am just trying to debate the rules, not date your mother. Whats the deal?

[talos]

+1000

[Hive Mind]

Oh, so this was a mature debating point?

No point, no rules just a snarky comment, if the troll shoes fit...


The point was that as much as people like to pass themselves off as strict-RAW the truth is very far from it. You are here arguing what you think the rules intend to say, not what they actually say, but you think you're RAW.



SA states
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."
So no WBB does not trump the SA rules.
I didn't invent a rule, I simply read the rules.


I'm not contending that the unit is saved. The unit is destroyed. No more. Ceased to be. Expired and gone to meet its maker. Off the twig. Kicked the bucket. If it wasn't nailed to a perch it would be pushing up the daisies.

Are we clear on what has happened to the unit?

The models in the unit however are laid on their side and take WBB rolls, as per the Codex rules for such.



By the way Mr. RAW, where is that quote from the rules that Codex trumps the BRB??
You dodged that question in our last debate.

Again with the Mr. RAW. For the millionth time, I'm very much an RAI player. Fluff, to me, is a secondary rules source. Only when the RAW produces an absurd result however.

I didn't dodge your question, I merely ignored it as Codex trumping Rulebook is a statement so widely repeated throughout GW 40k publications that to question it simply affirms that you are merely looking for snippets to support your RAI and ignoring the RAW that contradict it. Please, keep questioning it; makes my job so much easier when people discredit themselves.

[SeattleDV8]

The point is you keep claiming RAW but never produce any rules or quotes , just your own opinions.
When challenged you back off and claim I am pushing RAI.
I have supported all of my opinions with rules and quotes from them.
The reason you ignored my question is simple,you can't find it spelled out.
It is well known that Codex>BRB ( or in reality specific>general) is just good game design.
You always start with basic rules and add more complex rules as you go.
It is not stated specificly in the rule book (except smoke launchers and USR's).
In this case I have given 3 examples from the FAQ that show the downed models are still part of the parent unt.
This is also shown in the Necron Codex in the Monolith's rules.
If they were not then they could never be teleported though the Monolith when downed.
As such if the unit suffers SA then the entire unit ,downed or not is swept.

Look in your own group play it however you want, house rule to your hearts content.
If I come to your store or group , as long as you discuss it ahead of time I would have no trouble playing it that way.
In 5th Ed Necrons need as much help as they can get.
It's an old, outdated, confusing mish mash that doesn't work well.

I just want an honest debate on want the rules actually say, so we can agree on what is silly RAW and deal with problems before we hit the table.
You and the others have not shown that the downed models are not still part of the unit and explain why a special rule can save part of the unit when SA clearly states that nothing can save them (without a specific over-ride)

If you had played in the Adepticon tournament that was held a couple of weeks ago you would have had this ruling in this case
INAT"NEC.13A.02 – Q: If a Necron unit is wiped out by a Sweeping Advance in close combat, can any of the models in the unit (including its damaged ones) use „We‟ll Be Back!‟ to repair themselves?
A: No, as a special rule cannot be used to save models from a Sweeping Advance [clarification]."

Yes , many people dismiss the INAT but it is a resource that several tournies use.
That said it is only another opinion, not RAW.

[addamsfamily36]

Fine, you want to play by your house rules and do not care what the rules say.
There is no point in debating with you.
If you do not treat the GW FAQ's as rules I, and most people will not play you.
Yes WBB happens after SA, sometimes the next turn ,sometimes the turn after that (player turns)
When WBB comes around there is nothing left to WBB, as the entire unit has been removed.
The monolith rules (you know, in the Necron codex) state that the downed model are still part of the unit.


Whoop: you might want to read the rules before tring to tell us what they are.
So far every one of your posts have had nothing even close to actual rules, which is why I have not responded to you.
You also have it backwards, WBB has to mention SA in order for it to work.
SA alreadly tells us no special rules can rescue the unit., the entire unit downed or not.
WWB and teleporting though the monolith are very much tied together.


what house rules? also i read the rules, even quoted them. so how have i not presented my case. You want to voice your opinion, but will except no option but your own. yet you call me and others the troll or immature ones?

can i ask you, do you even own the necron codex? or just the faq's?

and on that note, i will again ask another player to go to the erratas and faq's section. it clearly states erratas are changes to rules due to miss prints or missed rules. faq's are guidelines. they are one guy's opinion up at gamesworkshop. they are someone else's house rules. sometimes they fit perfectly othertimes they don't. Whether you choose to play by them is your choice, but they are not rules that have to be followed by the mainstream. they are house rules in themselves. (see my blood angels debate for how FAQ's can cause absolute nonsense and bull**** because they were rushed or worded incorrectly)

also where does it say that WBB has to mention SA for it to work? infact thinking about it SA and WBB are two rules that never fully interact seeing as WBB happens at a completely different time.

again stop using the monolith!! you don;t need one to use WBB. and in WBB it states models that are down cease to exist at this point and i'll quote it, again, just so i can;t be sniped for not reading the rules:

Quote - damaged necrons are ignored completely for ALL normal games purposes such as unit coherency, meausring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only.

[Hive Mind]

The point is you keep claiming RAW but never produce any rules or quotes , just your own opinions.
When challenged you back off and claim I am pushing RAI.


Sure thing champ.



I have supported all of my opinions with rules and quotes from them.


ROFL



The reason you ignored my question is simple,you can't find it spelled out.
It is well known that Codex>BRB ( or in reality specific>general) is just good game design.
You always start with basic rules and add more complex rules as you go.
It is not stated specificly in the rule book (except smoke launchers and USR's).


Or... I simply haven't bothered looking for it. I don't need to, it's everywhere and everyone knows it. Your questioning of it simply reinforces that you are posting and finding snippets of information that support what you think the rules should be.



In this case I have given 3 examples from the FAQ that show the downed models are still part of the parent unt.
This is also shown in the Necron Codex in the Monolith's rules.
If they were not then they could never be teleported though the Monolith when downed.
As such if the unit suffers SA then the entire unit ,downed or not is swept.


I guess we're not clear on what happens to the unit. One more time, real slow for you;

The. Unit. Is. Destroyed (still with me?). By. The. Sweeping. Advance.

I. Have. Not. Said. Otherwise.



You and the others have not shown that the downed models are not still part of the unit and explain why a special rule can save part of the unit when SA clearly states that nothing can save them (without a specific over-ride)


No but I have shown that whether they're part of the 'parent unit' is totally immaterial. Sweeping advance destroys the unit, that much is obvious because nothing can save them "at this stage". Then the rules for WBB come in and tell us that, although the unit is destroyed, the models that make up the unit are laid on their side until WBB rolls can be made because i) they are ignored for all normal game purposes, ii) they haven't been removed by one of the methods listed in the WBB rules and iii) because WBB rolls are not made "at this stage". If they're successful then the models stand up and join another unit. The 'parent unit' remains destroyed for game purposes such as kill-points.



That said it is only another opinion, not RAW.

QFT.

[SeattleDV8]

what house rules? also i read the rules, even quoted them. so how have i not presented my case. You want to voice your opinion, but will except no option but your own. yet you call me and others the troll or immature ones?
At no point did I call you a troll or immature.



can i ask you, do you even own the necron codex? or just the faq's?
No I do not.


and on that note, i will again ask another player to go to the erratas and faq's section. it clearly states erratas are changes to rules due to miss prints or missed rules. faq's are guidelines. they are one guy's opinion up at gamesworkshop. they are someone else's house rules. sometimes they fit perfectly othertimes they don't. Whether you choose to play by them is your choice, but they are not rules that have to be followed by the mainstream. they are house rules in themselves. (see my blood angels debate for how FAQ's can cause absolute nonsense and bull**** because they were rushed or worded incorrectly)
Discounting the FAQ's tends to undermind your arugment in my opinion.
Yes, they are described as soft rules, but really GW considers all of the rules as a secondary matter
BRB pg. 2 "The most important rule is that the rules aren't all that important."
It's this attitude that seems to bring poorly written, edited and play tested Codexes and rules in general.
That said the FAQ's , codexes and BRB are what we have to base our debates on.
In your local group you can of course house rule but you can't expect other people to disregard the FAQ's just because you dislike some of their rulings.
Also they are from GW and as such are not just 'some guy's opinion', like the INAT is (well several guys).


also where does it say that WBB has to mention SA for it to work? infact thinking about it SA and WBB are two rules that never fully interact seeing as WBB happens at a completely different time.
to repeat it again.
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."
That about as clear as you can get.
you do know that this rule was the same in 4th ed, except it had the line '....no save or special rule, like WBB,....." .
The ed has changed,the rule has not, it just dropped the example of a rule that doesn't work.


top using the monolith!! you don;t need one to use WBB. and in WBB it states models that are down cease to exist at this point and i'll quote it, again, just so i can;t be sniped for not reading the rules:

Quote - damaged necrons are ignored completely for ALL normal games purposes such as unit coherency, meausring ranges, calculating whether other units can self-repair, and so on - they are debris only.

Well then you cannot teleport the downed models for a second chance at WBB if they are only debris.
The monolith rules prove that the downed model are still part of the unit.


Hivemind; ok still no rules to back your opinion,.

[Hive Mind]

"Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."

The full quote, not the truncated version you coincidentally rely on, is "[u]nless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage".

My emphasis.

WBB doesn't occur at that stage.

[Lerra]

No need to get angry. We're arguing about a codex that is going to be updated inside of 6 months, with people that you will never play against.

[SeattleDV8]

The full quote, not the truncated version you coincidentally rely on, is "[u]nless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage".

My emphasis.

WBB doesn't occur at that stage.

Finally, thank you a real quote.

Yes I agree, WWB happens at the start of the Necron player's turn.
At which point the unit has already been destroyed and removed from play during a earlier assault phase.

The timing is unimportant.
What real question is, are the downed models still part of the parent unit.
If yes they are removed from play, if not then they have a chance at WWB (if all the conditions are met)

[Hive Mind]

Yes, the unit has been destroyed and removed, just as a unit killed by rapid-firing Marines is destroyed and removed. We've established that. In a kill-point game, you get the point for wiping out the unit.

What you're failing to recognise is that the models that make up the 'destroyed and removed' unit are simply laid down on their side, per the WBB rules. Presuming, of course, that they weren't killed in a manner that disallows WBB rolls.

The unit being being destroyed and removed does not mean that the models subject to the Necron SR which comprise the unit are removed. Necron units are not subject to WBB. Necron models are. If you're being strictly RAW. If the SA rules said "all models in the swept unit are destroyed and removed" then I'd agree with what you're saying.

I'd also agree that this is probably not what GW intended when they wrote the rules. Further, to impress how non-RAW I am in real life, if the unit that performs the SA is armed solely with CCWs that do not allow WBB rolls we remove all the Necron models as well. If they have some CCW's that do not allow WBB rolls to be made we remove an amount of Necron models equalling the number of attacks the models with the CCW's in question possess.

[SeattleDV8]

Yes, the unit has been destroyed and removed, just as a unit killed by rapid-firing Marines is destroyed and removed. We've established that. In a kill-point game, you get the point for wiping out the unit.
Agreed


What you're failing to recognise is that the models that make up the 'destroyed and removed' unit are simply laid down on their side, per the WBB rules. Presuming, of course, that they weren't killed in a manner that disallows WBB rolls.
Which of course SA does disallow.You can't use a 'special rule ' to save the unit.


The unit being being destroyed and removed does not mean that the models subject to the Necron SR which comprise the unit are removed. Necron units are not subject to WBB. Necron models are. If you're being strictly RAW. If the SA rules said "all models in the swept unit are destroyed and removed" then I'd agree with what you're saying.
?? But it does say that BRB pg. 40
"The falling back unit is destroyed."
"The destroyed unit is removed immediadely."



I'd also agree that this is probably not what GW intended when they wrote the rules. Further, to impress how non-RAW I am in real life, if the unit that performs the SA is armed solely with CCWs that do not allow WBB rolls we remove all the Necron models as well. If they have some CCW's that do not allow WBB rolls to be made we remove an amount of Necron models equalling the number of attacks the models with the CCW's in question possess.

Ah, I think your group is confusing SA with No Retreat.
SA doesn't cause wounds, it just removes all of the models in the unit..
Doesn't matter what weapons or St they are.
Where with No Retreat if the winning side is unable to wound the fearless loser , he would take no damage.
For example St 3 guard vs a T 8 Monsterous Creature.

[Whoop!]

Hey guys, you are both looking at the same rules.
If you can't agree ahead of time, then don't play with that person.

I'm just saying that DV8 and Hivemind will never agree on this. Perhaps you should just go to name calling. I'll start it off ...

Your Momma is so dumb she studied for a drug test!

[Necron2.0]

It is abundantly clear that WBB does not apply to sweeping advance. The case has been made and the overwhelming preponderance of documentable evidence indicates beyond any doubt that WBB cannot be taken for SA due to timing and the mechanics of WBB. If the proponents have anything more than restated opinion to offer, then by all means do so. Otherwise, I'd suggest closing this thread, because it is degrading into something of a slap fight, and a none to interesting one at that. I'd also challenge any proponent of using WBB versus SA to try and get away with it in tournament - you'd be laughed off the battle field and out of the LGS.

However, purely to play devils advocate, assuming the fantasy is real, how would a proponent propose handling a SA that's been inflicted by a unit containing power weapons? You don't get WBB against power weapons and instant kill weapons. Are you now going to devise specialty rules to handle every conceivable case of who is inflicting SA on whom? No. You'd be better off playing the rules as they are written, and as amended by the FAQ.

[addamsfamily36]

At no point did I call you a troll or immature.


I'll apologise for this as i thought the original 'troll' was aimed at me.



No I do not.

See, now i refuse to debate something unless i have the source material to hand. Just a personal thing. which is why you will never find me arguing outside of armies i play or own.


Discounting the FAQ's tends to undermind your arugment in my opinion.
Yes, they are described as soft rules, but really GW considers all of the rules as a secondary matter
BRB pg. 2 "The most important rule is that the rules aren't all that important."
It's this attitude that seems to bring poorly written, edited and play tested Codexes and rules in general.
That said the FAQ's , codexes and BRB are what we have to base our debates on.
In your local group you can of course house rule but you can't expect other people to disregard the FAQ's just because you dislike some of their rulings.
Also they are from GW and as such are not just 'some guy's opinion', like the INAT is (well several guys).

Each to their own i suppose, but i wouldn't say it underminds my opinion or argument. for example in the blood angels FAQ debate i referred to, a player was trying to argue that because the FAQ stated to a model, then the effects of a priests chalice only effected individual models in range. however all other references to the rule state the unit gets the ability and you measuring to a model in the unit means your unit is range. much like how to shoot at a unit you only have to be in range of one or two etc. This was a classic case of someone trying to exploit a poorly written FAQ and use it as an overruling on an actual rule. i agree with you though. FAQ's on mass, are good but there are some that only cause further confusion or open up extreme rules exploitation. You say i can;t force players to not use FAQ's, and i don't, but neither can you force a player to use them as stated by GW they are not rules.



to repeat it again.
"Unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit..."
That about as clear as you can get.
you do know that this rule was the same in 4th ed, except it had the line '....no save or special rule, like WBB,....." .
The ed has changed,the rule has not, it just dropped the example of a rule that doesn't work.

But the rule doesn't prevent their destruction. for all purposes the necrons are small bits of metal on the battlefield. SA has destroyed them. WBB however at a later stage brings these bits of metal back from the dead. we said we'll be back and we are.



Well then you cannot teleport the downed models for a second chance at WBB if they are only debris.
The monolith rules prove that the downed model are still part of the unit.

this seriously questions whether or not you understand what i'm trying to argue. I'm not using a monolith to teleport an existing unit. A unit can only be teleported if it exists.

what myself and others are saying, is that in circumstances where you have a tomb spider or another unit type within range, the models get back up reformed from debris by WBB and join a new unit. if there are no units in range then yes they are gone, wiped out forever.

[Hive Mind]

Sweeping advance does not say that the models are removed. It says that the unit is destroyed and removed.

That is the crux of the issue. It is clear that nothing can save the swept unit "at this stage" and nothing does. If you sweep a unit with the Necron SR it is gone. You get the kill-point and maybe a cookie. WBB however says that the models in the unit are laid on their side. WBB is not a SR saving the unit. If it was, SA would over-rule it. WBB is a SR that is applicable to the models that comprise the unit which has been destroyed and removed from play. If the models are eligible for and make their WBB rolls they stand back up and join another unit. The original unit however is still destroyed; you keep the kill-point.

[Demonus]

Sweeping advance does not say that the models are removed. It says that the unit is destroyed and removed.

Now its been a while since I was in school, but when I read "the unit is destroyed and removed", I see the word REMOVED in there....

[Hive Mind]

Now its been a while since I was in school, but when I read "the unit is destroyed and removed", I see the word REMOVED in there....

In line with the first sentence of my post and the one line you've quoted you mean?

Yes, the unit is destroyed and removed. What of it?

[Demonus]

lol. just accept the fact that SA kills the necrons. everyone else has. including myself, who plays necrons.

[Hive Mind]

lol. just accept the fact that SA kills the necrons. everyone else has. including myself, who plays necrons.

Why would I accept something that is wrong merely because it is the popular opinion?

[addamsfamily36]

Now its been a while since I was in school, but when I read "the unit is destroyed and removed", I see the word REMOVED in there....

yes it says removed. hivemind and myself and all the others who are presenting a case for WBB are not arguing that. However under WBB it says instead of removing models, they become debris. to represent this you lay them on their side. make sense?

I see the word remove when you kill a necron normally as well. does WBB not work for that either? by your argument it doesn't.

im not trying to be nasty, but instead of having an actual debate, its jsut 'weve heard this all before" or "jsut accept it" etc etc

if there is nothing constructive to say then why bother?

I'm glad hive mind is here or i would be pulling my hair out.

[Paul]

Why would I accept something that is wrong merely because it is the popular opinion?

Indeed. The vast majority of humanity used to think that the world was flat. Are they right?

Also I see no rules problem here.

The unit is not saved by anything, special rule or otherwise. The conditions of Sweeping Advance are fulfilled.

The models which were formerly destroyed and are now back (well 50% of them) are not part of the original unit. In fact, they're members of a totally unrelated unit which had nothing to do with the combat other than being within 6".

A unit of 10 warriors 6" away from a lost combat becomes a unit of 14 warriors thanks to We'll Be Back on the turn after the combat is lost. Does this violate Sweeping Advance's clause that a unit may not be saved at the end of combat by a special rule?

[SeattleDV8]

Except if you lay the models on their side from SA you in effect 'saving' them....heh
Paul, that is not what Addams and Hive are talking about, they are discussing the models that were already down when SA happens. They and I agree that the standing models are removed without a chance at WWB.
As it is a special rule and none of it effects can be used to rescue the unit, (or models)
It is not only popular ,but it also has the rules to back it.
Thank goodness we only have a few more months of this internet sillyness.

[Tynskel]

You are saving the models, not the unit. There is a difference.

If there are no tomb spyders and no other units nearby, you cannot get your WBB rolls, even if there is a Res Orb.

[Hive Mind]

Except if you lay the models on their side from SA you in effect 'saving' them....heh

Saving the models, yes. A Sweeping Advance destroys the unit...



Paul, that is not what Addams and Hive are talking about, they are discussing the models that were already down when SA happens. They and I agree that the standing models are removed without a chance at WWB.


I don't agree with that at all. Whether the models are already 'down' when the SA occurs or not they are eligible for WBB rolls if the other criteria are fulfilled.

You can't out-rules lawyer a real-life lawyer.

[addamsfamily36]

Except if you lay the models on their side from SA you in effect 'saving' them....heh
Paul, that is not what Addams and Hive are talking about, they are discussing the models that were already down when SA happens. They and I agree that the standing models are removed without a chance at WWB.
As it is a special rule and none of it effects can be used to rescue the unit, (or models)
It is not only popular ,but it also has the rules to back it.
Thank goodness we only have a few more months of this internet sillyness.

not 100 percent sure that we are discussing the same thing actually lol.

I'm, how to put it, not 100 percent set in stone in any camp, but i was trying to present a case for both the unit that has been destroyed by SA getting WBB for both downed prior to the sweeping advance and after the sweeping advance.

I may have to draw a couple of diagrams with a few scenarios as i often find that helps to make my poor written explanation of things become more clear. But i'm not doing that now as its almost 2 am :D

[SeattleDV8]

Okay , thats what I get for give you guys credit for basic understanding.
Hive was agreeing with this up to this last post...heh
Addams was jumping back and forth.
Talos was agreeing with this all along, we only debated the state of the downed models.
(He also had the strongest arguments and might have support from GW, maybe)

The unit (which includes all of the models BRB pg.3 Units) Is destroyed and removed by SA.
WBB can not save the unit at this point because it is a special rule that does not mention SA.
BRB pg 40
"unless otherwise specified, no save or special rule can rescue the unit at this stage".
The unit( which means all the models in the unit) has not suffered wounds, has not taken casualities, but is destroyed and removed.
Models are not laid on theitr sides, they are removed from the game.
The models that have been laid on their sides from wounds are also removed from the game at this point because they are still part of the unit.
This is proven by 3 FAQ's and the Monolith Rules.
The downed models remain part of their unit until a WBB roll can change this.
At the point which SA happens they have not and can not change which unit they are in.

SA destroys and removes the entire unit, all the models , downed or not.

This has been the case since the Necron Codex came out, it only because the 5 ed. removed the example of a rule that doesn't work against SA ("... .like WBB...)that this even became an issue.
The rule is unchanged and WBB has never worked when a unit suffered SA.

Thankfully this silly unsupported idea that WBB works against SA will soon be moot.
Good luck convincing anyone with any understanding of rules that it does....
I've made my points and will not repeat myself.
Good day.

[Hive Mind]

I get that you don't want to repeat yourself; it gets boring after a while. I had the same thing when you were also wrong in the Like the Wind thread. This whole debacle could have been avoided had you simply admitted that you were basing your premise on what you think the rules were intended to be and not what is written.

Good day. Have fun holding popular, but erroneous, opinions.

[SeattleDV8]

I get that you don't want to repeat yourself; it gets boring after a while. I had the same thing when you were also wrong in the Like the Wind thread. This whole debacle could have been avoided had you simply admitted that you were basing your premise on what you think the rules were intended to be and not what is written.

Good day. Have fun holding popular, but erroneous, opinions.

Ha ha hee heh....the Like the Wind thread? you mean the tread where every one knew you were full of ****?
LOL Where you admited your entire argument was based on your RAI?
That WKZ blew your weak *** arguments out of the water??...LOL
Dude , you were wrong then , you're even more wrong now.

I have no problem with my opinions, because they are based in the rules.
Save your cheap shots, I only am wounded by people I have respect for.
And guess what, that isn't you.
Talos is the only one on your side that has debated well and fairly.
He came up with rules and quotes ( granted this was in an earlier debate ) but he always was classy.
Sadly Hive you have generally gave opinions and tried to pass them off as RAW.
Your style of debate is skating the thin line of trolling.
You seem like a semi-intelligent person, come on , you can do better than cheap shots and half -arsed arugments.
Boost your game dude.

[Hive Mind]

Ha ha hee heh....the Like the Wind thread? you mean the tread where every one knew you were full of ****?
LOL Where you admited your entire argument was based on your RAI?
That WKZ blew your weak *** arguments out of the water??...LOL
Dude , you were wrong then , you're even more wrong now.

I have no problem with my opinions, because they are based in the rules.
Save your cheap shots, I only am wounded by people I have respect for.
And guess what, that isn't you.
Talos is the only one on your side that has debated well and fairly.
He came up with rules and quotes ( granted this was in an earlier debate ) but he always was classy.
Sadly Hive you have generally gave opinions and tried to pass them off as RAW.
Your style of debate is skating the thin line of trolling.
You seem like a semi-intelligent person, come on , you can do better than cheap shots and half -arsed arugments.
Boost your game dude.

You continue to quote irrelevancies and spun information/downright lies. It does not matter what 'everyone' thinks. Popular opinion is no guarantee of veracity. You only have to look at music charts or box-office receipts to see that. I said, several times, in the Like the Wind thread that we do not allow it to be issued to units locked in an assault because of our RAI even though the RAW allow it to be.

So I'm paraphrasing what the rules says instead of giving direct quotes, so what? That doesn't change that a SA destroys the unit, which is then removed. For any other army that would of course be fatal to my point because to any other army the unit is the models and vice-versa. For Necrons, that is not true and the rules as written do not disqualify models with the Necron SR being laid on their side and taking WBB rolls. SA explicitly destroys the unit, as nothing can save it. WBB saves the models, not the unit.

You and I both know that this is not what was intended. That is however, what is written.

So just 'fess up and admit that you use RAI too.

[Tynskel]

I really don't see what the problem is. The unit is no more from SA. However, the models, can get WBB, but they can only get back up if they follow the appropriate rules, ie there is a unit within range to join

[Lerra]

If damaged Necrons are part of the squad, wouldn't they be considered for determining victory points, leadership tests, etc?

[Whoop!]

DV8, you seem to accuse Hivemind of the same petty BS that you are ALSO guilty of. Your statements of rules look like opinion as much as his.

Condescension does not win debates, it just muddies them.

I didn't see where we all agreed that this debate was just for those Crons destroyed before the SA, so stop assuming.

I still think at this point we should just devolve into name calling.

Your momma is so fat that when cut she bleeds milkshake.

[Necron2.0]

To quote the BRB (with highlights):


We assume that the already demoralized foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding.

Under what justification would an undamaged Necron gain a WBB test? Also, even if under some bizzaro world scenario someone managed to nag their opponent into allowing them a WBB role for the assumably damaged fraction of swept unit, what is to say they'd come back as combatants. Technically, their unit (the one captured, hiding and fleeing) is by definition the closest unit. So, the damaged ones would get up and IMMEDIATELY go into hiding.

[Lerra]

Using fluff to justify rules is just asking for trouble in GW's universe. A Necron can also take a point-blank turbo laser to the face and get back up as long as there is a Rez Orb nearby, never mind that the Necron would be atomized. 'Crons can also use WBB in case of being trapped in temporal stasis for all eternity, or being sucked into the warp, etc.

Honestly by the fluff, Necrons should be Fearless or Stubborn. It doesn't make sense that they would be sent fleeing and hiding by some guardsmen.

[Necron2.0]

If you were referring to what I wrote as referencing fluff, it's not. What I quoted comes directly from the rule. It is an explanation of what is meant by "the falling back unit is destroyed." I mean, the rule is pretty self-explanatory, really. Destroyed doesn't mean wounded. It's gone. The Necron is ...
... is no more! He has ceased to be! He's expired and gone to meet his maker! He's a stiff! Bereft of life, he rests in peace! He's pushing up the daisies! His metabolic processes are now history! He's off the twig! He's kicked the bucket, he's shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! He is an ex-[Necron]!!!

Now ... if you're saying the proponents of WBB for SA are using fluff to justify their position, then I'd agree. The logic used there is certainly like a cork-screw.

[addamsfamily36]

Le Sigh.

watch this space for some nice diagrams of the WBB rule. Hopefully we can debate those nicely. And they will be intelligent enough for seattledv8. i'll also include the rules quotes for a 3rd time and we'll discuss.

[Tynskel]

Sigh.

watch this space for some nice diagrams of the WBB rule. Hopefully we can debate those nicely. And they will be intelligent enough for seattledv8. i'll also include the rules quotes for a 3rd time and we'll discuss.

you forgot 'Le Sigh' at the beginning!

[addamsfamily36]

lol

edited just for you

[SeattleDV8]

It's been done, the best one I've seen is from Time Wizard (Warseer and Dakka Dakka) A true rules guru.
NECRON WBB FLOWCHART

Necron model (except Necron Lord) is destroyed in shooting phase
A-Is its unit within 6” of a Res Orb on the table (Lord is equipped and “alive”)?
Yes-Lay model on its side to await WBB
No-Go to B
B-Was it destroyed by a weapon where S(weapon) >=2X T(model)?
Yes-Remove model
No-Go to C
C-Was it destroyed by a CC that allows no armor save?
Yes-Remove model
No- Lay model on its side to await WBB
D-Is the damaged model's unit falling back?
Yes-Move damaged model with unit
No-Await WBB roll
E-Has the damaged model's unit been caught in a Sweeping Advance?
Yes-Remove model
No-Await WBB roll

Beginning of Necron turn roll for WBB
D-Is there another model of the same type within 6”?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Go to E
E-Is there a Tomb Spyder within 12” and a model of the same type on the table?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Remove model
F-Did model roll 4+ and pass WBB?
Yes-Place model in coherency with closest unit of same type
No-Go to G
G-Will the model’s unit teleport through a Monolith in movement phase?
Yes-Model may re-roll WBB as it emerges
No-Remove model

[Tynskel]

yes, I totally believe this trash.
A flow chart without rules page numbers or references.

[Whoop!]

Once again DV8 has said nothing.

Why do you bother to continue posting nothing? I suggested before you should just devolve into name calling if you are not going to produce any evidence.

Your momma is so fat her car is made out of spandex!(just as helpfu as the last 4 pages of posts)

[Paul]

It's been done, the best one I've seen is from Time Wizard (Warseer and Dakka Dakka) A true rules guru.
NECRON WBB FLOWCHART

Necron model (except Necron Lord) is destroyed in shooting phase
A-Is its unit within 6” of a Res Orb on the table (Lord is equipped and “alive”)?
Yes-Lay model on its side to await WBB
No-Go to B
B-Was it destroyed by a weapon where S(weapon) >=2X T(model)?
Yes-Remove model
No-Go to C
C-Was it destroyed by a CC that allows no armor save?
Yes-Remove model
No- Lay model on its side to await WBB
D-Is the damaged model's unit falling back?
Yes-Move damaged model with unit
No-Await WBB roll
E-Has the damaged model's unit been caught in a Sweeping Advance?
Yes-Remove model
No-Await WBB roll

Beginning of Necron turn roll for WBB
D-Is there another model of the same type within 6”?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Go to E
E-Is there a Tomb Spyder within 12” and a model of the same type on the table?
Yes-Roll for WBB
No-Remove model
F-Did model roll 4+ and pass WBB?
Yes-Place model in coherency with closest unit of same type
No-Go to G
G-Will the model’s unit teleport through a Monolith in movement phase?
Yes-Model may re-roll WBB as it emerges
No-Remove model

We are debating Step E. Where in the criteria for WBB eligibility does it mention sweeping advance?

If this is a WBB flowchart, we should only be taking data from the WBB rule as far as criteria.


To put my argument in a different way:

Sweeping Advance says the unit cannot be saved by special rules.


WBB doesn't save units, it saves models.

Sweeping Advance does NOT say that models may not be saved.

Do not conflate models with units.

[Whoop!]

Thanks Paul,
That was better than a momma joke.

[SeattleDV8]

Thanks Paul,
That was better than a momma joke.

Certainly better than your jokes Whoop, but that is damning him with faint praise.:p

[wkz]

You continue to quote irrelevancies and spun information/downright lies. It does not matter what 'everyone' thinks. Popular opinion is no guarantee of veracity. You only have to look at music charts or box-office receipts to see that. I said, several times, in the Like the Wind thread that we do not allow it to be issued to units locked in an assault because of our RAI even though the RAW allow it to be.
... ...
It does not matter what 'everyone' thinks. That's true, after all a lot of philosophers got their vindication after this pesky thing called "truth" came up...

BUT it DOES matter what the actual "truth" IS: One selective group of people screaming something at the top of their voices does not make what they say truth. Otherwise, Nz-ism, Socialism, Communism, Democracy, Autocracy, etc... would make for the biggest horrid mish-mash of a government for most of us nowdays...

And in that thread: It doesn't matter what you think, or what most of the people in the thread thinks. Ultimately, I've laid my version of the truth out to play. And it is generally accepted that my version is a LOT closer to truth than what you may say...

(and by your own words, your "interpretation" is an attempt to DEAMONIZE RAW and "show how stupid RAW is to a stupid person who thinks RAI is bad". As I've said, you're not approaching rules interpretation from the best of intentions.

Oh, and to enlighten the people who did not read that one "like the wind" thread, my argument breaks down into: Codex > Rulebook yes... but when the Rulebook is asked by the Codex to explain entire sections of rules, what the rulebook says sticks and takes over.

Such as "this unit get to shoot... now Rulebook, explain what 'Shoot' is...", the rulebook's restriction on shooting gets to overrule the unit's "allowed to shoot" special rule unless otherwise overruled by the Codex saying "can shoot during XXX"... Examples of this in action is the "Astral aim and the Vehicle firing ports" thing.)



And the obligatory "stay in topic" section of my post:

I would say the unit is destroyed... ... "would say" being the key point; Ultimately, I believe that this is one of the TRUE rules ambiguity that cannot be solved without GW pulling out a Rules ERRATA (as opposed to FAQ).

What we have here are 2 rules, WWB and SA, which are completely, 100% at odds with each other (one deals with specifically removing models/units as opposed to "normally" removing them, the other deals with restoring models/units as opposed to "normally" removing them) yet directly ATTACKS and tries to shut down each other ("...regardless of any special rules or saves..." vs "...instead of removing normally...").

AND to make it worse, both rules activates at the same time AND does not mention/overrule each other explicitly...

In fact, the only reason why I think the unit is destroyed is (a) The codex's rules are very, very old, while 5th edition is a newer ruleset, and (b) technically, SA beats WWB to the punch: SA removes entire units before WWB technically activates during model destruction.

But those are technicalities, and the dispute is still up in the air. As I've said, I believe that this is one of the TRUE rules ambiguity that cannot be solved by bickering on the internet, thus my lack of participation in WWB rules interpretation threads (There's a reason why this is my 2nd? 3rd? post ever on my opinion on this rule)

[SeattleDV8]

Thats ok WKZ, your wisdom is always welcome.

[Tynskel]

the point, though, is not whether the unit is destroyed: sweeping advance says the unit is destroyed.

The point is, do the models get WBB? If the unit is destroyed, models still get a chance to roll WBB if they fulfill other criteria. This is not a direct contention against sweeping advance.

[Necron2.0]

The point is, do the models get WBB? If the unit is destroyed, models still get a chance to roll WBB if they fulfill other criteria. This is not a direct contention against sweeping advance.

Actually, regarding Necrons shot downed prior to the sweep, I guess that could be a grey area. Obviously the unit itself is gone. That's been well established. Whether or not the Necrons dropped in the shooting phase can take a WBB after the unit has been swept depends on whether or not the dropped Necrons are still considered to be part of the swept unit at the time of the sweeping. My take on it is, yes they are still part of the swept unit, and so would be removed as swept. According to the rules, they aren't bound by the normal coherency requirements, but that doesn't make them a unit unto themselves, nor does it mean they're not part of the original unit. The rules also say they will join the closest unit once they've made a WBB roll, but that is only after having made the roll. Until then, logically they'd still be part of the original swept unit.

Of course, this all becomes moot in a few months when the new Necron codex comes out, and WBB becomes FNP - FNP being instantaneous with the damage dealing attack.

[Lerra]

My take on it is that damaged Necrons are not part of any squad - they are just battlefield debris and are ignored for all game purposes. They are just markers, basically.

[wkz]

the point, though, is not whether the unit is destroyed: sweeping advance says the unit is destroyed.

The point is, do the models get WBB? If the unit is destroyed, models still get a chance to roll WBB if they fulfill other criteria. This is not a direct contention against sweeping advance.... except SA has this "no amount of special rules can save them now" thing going on.

Does it actually affect WWB? Does WWB activate only afterwards? Does the timing of WWB overlaps with SA significantly enough??

My opinion: although the actual revival part occurs afterwards... the "selection of stuff to save" part occurs at the time of destruction. So yes, the timing of WBB is overlapped by SA, and both of the rules starts clashing at that point...
(SA: You're a special rule, and it is clearly stated all special stuff cannot save them now!! So YOU CAN'T!!
WBB: I occur "despite NORMAL removal" You're a RULEBOOK RULE, so everything you say is NORMAL!! So I CAN!!!
Players: le sigh...)

That, more than anything is why there's 10 pages of people firmly standing in their rule interpretation camps I guess.



As for casualties in the close combat BEFORE the sweeping advance, my opinion is that Lerra is technically correct: they're no longer part of anything, and thus is not part of the squad during SA. Thus they are unaffected by the SA and thus can be WWB'ed if they meet the criteria for doing so.

[chipstar1]

"Damaged Necrons ignore the normal coherency rules and cannot be attacked in any way - they are seen as just more battlefield debris."

So literally, the winning force is sweeping? Not only are they running down the functioning deathbots, but they are also getting out their dustbusters and cleaning up the battlefield debris? If the unit is in cover, does the cover get swept up also?

I play with swept units being removed as a whole, because that's the consensus in my group. However, I find a reasonable amount of evidence for the damaged Necrons being ignored in the SA as well. Like wkz, I feel that the only thing to do is wait for the next Codex, probably coming before any Errata or FAQ.

[Demonus]

So literally, the winning force is sweeping

hence the name, sweeping advance! :D

[Tynskel]

... except SA has this "no amount of special rules can save them now" thing going on.


Yeah, I said the unit is removed. I am not debating that. That unit is toast, nada, zilch. However, the WBB rules allow the models to stay. They may join a different unit, if they fulfill the requirements.

This is not conflicting with SA at all.

[wkz]

Yeah, I said the unit is removed. I am not debating that. That unit is toast, nada, zilch. However, the WBB rules allow the models to stay. They may join a different unit, if they fulfill the requirements.

This is not conflicting with SA at all.This I greatly disagree with: WWB is a 2 step program.
a) Models who die "actually did not die"
b) Start of Necron turn, revive the "did not die" models

As said by the rest of the post you quoted (but apparently did not read), the revival may occur later (and thus not conflict with SA)...
... but the WWB rules "selection of stuff to save" part, the rule which allow the models to stick around and play dead in the first place OCCURS at the POINT when the unit is destroyed. And that is when SA's "no saves" rule is in full force.

There IS a conflict.

[Hive Mind]

Only if you ignore that SA destroys units and WBB saves models.

[wkz]

...
...
Did I "ninja" you, or are you responding to me?

[SeattleDV8]

Only if you ignore that SA destroys units and WBB saves models.

Ha ha .... which is the point, a UNIT is all of the MODELS that make it up.
If the unit is destroyed then all of the models in that unit are destroyed.

Gezz this isn't rocket science.....if the unit is destroyed and removed there are no models left.
WBB has nothing to save at that point.
Buy a clue kiddies. HEH

[Hive Mind]

Ha ha .... which is the point, a UNIT is all of the MODELS that make it up.


True. For all armies but Necrons.

[Tynskel]

This I greatly disagree with: WWB is a 2 step program.
a) Models who die "actually did not die"
b) Start of Necron turn, revive the "did not die" models

As said by the rest of the post you quoted (but apparently did not read), the revival may occur later (and thus not conflict with SA)...
... but the WWB rules "selection of stuff to save" part, the rule which allow the models to stick around and play dead in the first place OCCURS at the POINT when the unit is destroyed. And that is when SA's "no saves" rule is in full force.

There IS a conflict.

There is no conflict. The unit has been destroyed. The killpoints/victory points have been awarded. There is no possible way to save the unit.

The models can only be revived if there is 1) a similar necron within 6" or 2) tomb spyder within 12" and a similar type on the board. The models join the other unit upon WBB has been made.

[wkz]

True. For all armies but Necrons.

I would very much like to see the BRB or Codex mention which says this... Don't worry, I can wait...


There is no conflict. The unit has been destroyed. The killpoints/victory points have been awarded. There is no possible way to save the unit.

The models can only be revived if there is 1) a similar necron within 6" or 2) tomb spyder within 12" and a similar type on the board. The models join the other unit upon WBB has been made.And this is where I disagree with you:

You (i think) believe that "Unit" and "Models" should be two different entities, 2 different targets for the rulebook to work on. If you specify a unit as a target, that's the thing that's going to be affected, and not the "models". That's... ... weird from my point of view, but actually quite logical. (The unit take a pinning test, the unit loses leadership, etc...)

But I believe that "Models" is a subset of "Unit". There is no unit without a collection of models, and a collection of models cannot be affected as a group without forming a unit. Thus, I believe all rules which work on a model within the unit can cause things to happen to that unit, and rules which work on entire units (overall) will affect the models within.

Example: Sorta like "(In this apocalypse game) My Battle Psykers reduce your unit's leadership... then my allied Callidus assassin use the kill-by-leadership-stat flamer template on you." True, the unit's leadership is reduced... BUT when the Callidus assassin starts flaming each of the models uses their own leadership... which IS REDUCED TOO.

Edit: or a much simpler example: "This unit is PINNED". Well, if rules for Units and rules for Models are not affected by each other... then why is the IC within that unit pinned and stuck right within the unit itself? The IC is part of the unit yes, but as a MODEL is it pinned? Or is it able to shrug off the pin (which belongs to the UNIT) and move elsewhere to join a non-pinned unit?

Thus, the reason why I think there's conflict: I see SA saying "... kill the unit... no saves...", and I believe that to also affect each and every Necron model inside of that unit.

[Tynskel]

No, I believe the unit is made of models.

WBB rules is that it does not care about Sweeping Advance.

Sweeping Advance does not care about the individual models.

What I am stating is that you are following both rules: Sweeping Advance removes the unit. The unit is no more. WBB deals with 'removed' models specifically- removed models are laid on their side. The unit is destroyed. The Necrons models have a chance to join another unit, as normal.

There is no possible way to save the unit.
Kill point awarded.

[SeattleDV8]

No, what you are trying to do is use semantics to get around the wording in Sweeping Advance.
"no special rule can rescue the unit' WBB cannot be used when the unit is swept.
At the point they are swept WBB is shut off and no models are laid on their sides,
The Unit (and all models in it) are destroyed and removed.

[wkz]

...
...
...
Oh boy.

As I've seen this once before, and I've already stated my position ("this really NEEDS an errata to solve"), I'll stop here... And SeattleDV8, for the sake of your sanity and the purity of your immortal soul I suggest you stop now too.

[Tynskel]

Sweeping Advance removes the unit. That's it. All WBB does is say that the models fall over. The unit is gone--- that is the requirement of Sweeping Advance. That's it--- there is nothing else to sweeping advance.

WBB does NOT save the unit in any form shape or whatever. However, WBB will allow downed Necrons to join another unit, if they fulfill the requirements.

[SeattleDV8]

Semantics Tynskel, the map is the territory or to put it another way the models are the unit.

HEH, once again thank goodness the new Necron Codex is coming out soon so we don't have to deal with the idiotic half-baked quasi silly RAI....LOL.
Play it how ever you want, generally speaking no one is playing necrons in a tournament setting so who cares.

[Tynskel]

your analogy makes no sense.

The distinction that is being made is that 'remove/destroyed' models means something specific in Necrons. Sweeping Advance states nothing can save the unit, and it is destroyed/removed.

The unit is cannot be saved.

However, removed necrons first lay down on their sides. However, if their parent unit was destroyed, they need other necrons to use WBB.

[Whoop!]

Aren't all of our rule debates arguing semantics? It is GW consistanetly piss poor wording that leads us all to debate semantics.

Once again DV8 I don't agree that this argument is SILLY, except that it has continued for too many pages.

The one thing I agree with you about is thank goodness there is a new codex coming out so this argument will be laid to rest.

Oh yeah, almost forgot....yo momma so fat that Jesus couldn't even lift her spirit!

[Tynskel]

Oh yeah, almost forgot....yo momma so fat that Jesus couldn't even lift her spirit!

Nah Uh!

[Duke]

Jesus jokes... Replies of two words which aren't words... Circular arguments... Yea this thread is dead, RIP.

Duke