Will anyone take Dreadknight to the ball?

[plawolf]

One of the units that received a lot of attention and generated a great deal of interest is the Dreadknight.

People were proclaiming it broken and imba before the codex even came out, but the only thing that changed from the leaked 'dex was dropping the inv save from 4+ to 5+. Bit of a nerf, but not crippling so.

However, I have very seldom seen any Dreadknights in proposed new GK lists, and I myself have not included even the token one in any of my lists even though I have the model. And that has got me thinking, where did it all suddenly go wrong for this pretty impressive model?

My take is that its high price (while reasonable for what it does) in a codex of expensive things, together with its HS FoC slot (putting it in direct competition with the far more useful and better bang for buck psyrifle dreads and LRs) and its speciality (which is CC, while it has ranged weapons options, they are a bit on the meh side, very overpriced for what they do, and the short range together with poor inv save, large model size as well as average BS makes the Dreadknight a sub-optimal shooting platform) means it brings very little new to the table that GK infantry does not already have covered.

The confusion caused by the wording of its rules does not help either tbh - eg, does the doomfists (what a naff name) double its strength? Can it claim objectives if made 'scoring as if troops' by a GM?).

Thus, we finally get to the point, firstly has anyone got a list where they plan on taking a dreadknight or three?

Secondly, how do you think the dreadknight can be tweaked to make more people be willing to take it?

I can see several possible ways GW could have made the dreadknight far more attractive.

If they make heavy psycannons and gatling psilensers 36" or better, than the dreadknight would be a far more attractive weapons platform.

If they had put the dreadknight in the FA slot, I could see more people being willing to give it a go as you won't have to give up psyrifle dreads to do so.

If they had made it an upgradeable wargear option for BCs, GMs and Librarians, I could see a lot more people being interested in taking one, and it would actually be fluffy as well.

Anyways, enough of my ramblings, what do you guys feel?

[scadugenga]

I plan on playing at least one in my list.

But I'm also planning on my GK's for fun, not necessarily for competitive purposes.

Seeing the actual kit in person made me like it a hellova lot more than the sneak preview photos did.

[Skragger]

Generally, I agree with you on this. Its one of those flash in a pan models where everyone goes "yay! Its so cool! It can do..um... oh.."

However, you and I have very different feelings on "cool looking model"

[Cyberscape7]

I don't want the rifle dread. Sure, it's got some nice guns and is a nice addition to a competetive list. But thats where its problem is. COMPETETIVE. The dreadknight has more "personality" than the dreads. Plus its got a kick-*** sword!
As for load out, I'm planning on getting 2.
one with greatsword and heavy incinerator. The second with gatlling psilencer and heavy psycannon making it a nice mobile support platform

[Sonikgav]

Heavy Psycannon and Super Incinerator on mine. I could be tempted to swap to the Psilencer depending on how the Psycannon works out but im not convinced by S4 shooting on a heavy unit.

Im not convinced on its combat ability even with the sword so its going to be mobile anti infantry fire support and something to go punch an enemy monster or something.

[DarkLink]

The problem with dreadknights is the high cost and the poor weapon options. Grey knights don't need more anti-infantry shooting, they need ways of killing tanks. So when you look at your three heavy slots, and look at the dreadknight, and then look at the psyrifle dread, the choice is pretty obvious.

The fact that the Dreadknight can't kill tanks, and competes with the psyrifle dread, means it won't get taken much.

[KingStuart]

Agreed, while I would love to field a dreadknight in a competitive list, at no point am I thinking "I need some extra anti infantry firepower and/or something to kill monstrous creatures." The whole army is pretty good at that. What they need is to be able to get into their 24" kill zone (Landraiders?) and/or long range and anti tank firepower, neither of which the dreadknight provides. Also you really do need a way to get it into the fight which means either a 75pt teleporter or a librarian with the summoning.

[somerandomdude]

People were proclaiming it broken and imba before the codex even came out, but the only thing that changed from the leaked 'dex was dropping the inv save from 4+ to 5+. Bit of a nerf, but not crippling so.

Not true, the S and T went down, and the big nerf was that the leaked Heavy Psycannon was being guessed at Heavy 8.


The confusion caused by the wording of its rules does not help either tbh - eg, does the doomfists (what a naff name) double its strength? Can it claim objectives if made 'scoring as if troops' by a GM?).

Monstrous Creatures can score no problem. The Dreadnought is the one that has a problem.

[DarkLink]

Right, a str 8 psycannon would have made the Dreadknight competitive with the psyrifle dread. Instead, the heavy psycannon sucks.

[plawolf]

Right, a str 8 psycannon would have made the Dreadknight competitive with the psyrifle dread. Instead, the heavy psycannon sucks.

Heavy 8 means 8 shots, not strength 8. ;)

[MaltonNecromancer]

I'm planning on taking one or two. I don't think it's suboptimal at all; it is what it is - a more survivable dreadnought. Yes it's only got a 5++ save, but that 2+ is still pretty good, and it'sl Toughness 6; while I agree that it's not as good at anti-vehicle as a Psyrifle, it can take a teleporter, and that's the big difference people haven't factored in yet. - the ability fit it to move 12" a turn, and a single 30" shunt move. Yes, that makes it ludicrously expensive, but I honestly cannot think of a better distraction unit. It's a horror you've got to deal with because its's going to be on you in a turn or two (maybe even one), and once it's up close it's going to dish out quite a lot of hurt. Also, it's a Grey Knight unit - if you're playing GK's, pretty much every-tmesis-thing's a points sink.

I think people are pinning it as a long-range tank-killer which it's not, because they want to use GK's to kill infantry, because they're still trying to play GK's like Vanilla marines. Which they aren't. They're not faster (like BA), or more assaulty (like SW); they're... well, for want of a better word, weirder.

I have no idea how competetive they are, but I really can see them being useful in an atypical army build. I keep toying with the idea of two five-man Interceptor units as prime tank-killers - give them two Daemonhammers each and shunt them right into the transports to pop them on turn two; with a pair of Dreadknights equipped with Heavy Incinerators, Heavy Psycannons and a pair of Doomfists, I can see that working pretty well (albeit in a "Zerg rush" kind of a way).

[plawolf]

Not true, the S and T went down, and the big nerf was that the leaked Heavy Psycannon was being guessed at Heavy 8.

Be that as it may, does it really change the equation? Does T7 S7 make it so much better than T6 S6 to be worth taking?

As for heavy psycannons being Heavy 8, well was that even remotely official? Just because lots of people wanted it that way and quoted each other as if that would increase the likelihood of it being so, does not make it really believable.

But even assuming it was heavy 8, that is still 24" and not bring anything new to the table all other GK infantry should be taking as standard.

[Lemt]

Be that as it may, does it really change the equation? Does T7 S7 make it so much better than T6 S6 to be worth taking?

YES. Oh god yes. T7 is a HUGE change from T6.

Plasma wounds on a 4+ instead of 3+, S4 or less can do nothing to you. Those two changes mean that you are stronger against what is possibly the best ranged weapon against you, and that normal enemies can do nothing against you (so you only have fists to fear from in melee).
Also, we used to think he'd have a 4++ save instead of a 5++ save. Also a big change.

[Xas]

a heavy8 bullet instead of heavy1 5" blast would have made the heavy psycannon more "in line" with the general thought process of the grey knightweaponry.


I personally do not yet like the heavy psycannon but I'll experiment with it. ATM I like my one built and painted dreadknight and tbh so far he has performed stellar in every game played (and he was in every game I played with GKs). Even the one game he came in late from reserve (outflanking) he cleared/contestet my oponents objective on his own and basically won me the game (normal PAGK on my objective and rest of army to puffer the oponents army off my objective).


I personally think that the Dreadknight is the essence of grey knights incarnate. Play him like a vanilla space marines dreadnought and he'll be a waste of points (as much as a grey knight played like a vanilla marine will be basically rubbish) but embrace the unique playstyle and he'll win you countless games.


Haveing played tyranids really allows your to understand the dreadknight (a mounstrous creature) far deeper than any space marine (only used to walkers, tanks and infantry) could ever hope to manage. it also lets you embrace the beaty that a single statline presents....
2+ save. if the meta doesnt suddenly shift (and it isnt going to because AC/ML will allways be more points efficient than lascannons at hurting transports) then this this little stat means so much because it makes you basically immune to autocannons and missile launchers (and you have the wounds to take a melta-salvo to the face and still bash the offending squad's heads in undlike a dread that easilly gets exploded/immobilized).

really for me the big loss of the nid dex wasnt eternal warrior or even the points of the carnifex but the simple issue that you cannot get a 2+ armor save on MC in any sane way (only walking hivetyrants and t-fexes can ahve it :( ).

[fuzzbuket]

hmm from my judgement

1) the hvy incinerator is useless...i has the same stats as the regular one and the only bounus is a +12' range
2) hvy psycannon: Y U NO HAVE TWIN FIRE MODES- useful for lots of light av tanks(rhino parking lot) or heavy infantry clustered together, possibly even MC's
3) gatling psylincer. psycannon= quality, psylincer = quantity.
4) ccw's= the hammer = S10, the sword = S6 but re - rolls in CC
4) the stats are rather - Meh the iv save is nice but frankly hes a pimped term and arfter a few melta guns he WILL DIE
5) kinda like a midget fex
6) but more expensive.
7) useful as a mid/high field objective holder with a GM.

final words : the HAMMER is rather pointless- he already has dread CCw's (so S10)

[DarkLink]

Plasma wounds on a 4+ instead of 3+, S4 or less can do nothing to you.

Str 4 can still hurt you.

[Lemt]

Str 4 can still hurt you.

Aaaand I fail.

The rest of my points still stand however. :/

[MaltonNecromancer]

the hvy incinerator is useless...i has the same stats as the regular one and the only bounus is a +12' range

Totally disagree. Dreadknight with a Heavy Incinerator is only 30pt more than a Hellhound (which is a unit I field all the time in my IG, and one which I have always found to be useful). Teleporting Dreadknight can still shoot - what part of teleport onto the enemy and toast them with a str 6 flame template isn't scary?! I totally rate the Heavy Incinerator, far more than the Gatling Psilencer (12 str 4 shots = a less accurate Hurricane Bolter IMO).

I'd go with Heavy Incinerator/Psycannon, and then teleporter (if I have the points that is) to immediately shunt move them onto the enemy as quickly as possible, and drop the pair of them like an angry hammer to double team an enemy. Pure shock and awe.

[Bean]

I think he'll be worth trying. The gun options are lack-luster, but first-turn assaults with a scout-move-teleport-shunt are pretty brutal, and he's close to being reasonably priced at 205 (nothing but the teleporter). Anyway, I'll give him a shot. We'll see. He's got an uphill battle against psy-rifle dreads, though.

[scadugenga]

I'm with Malton on the gun loadout.

I cannot, for the life of me, think of any reason I would want to field a Psilencer of any persuasion. st 4 ap - is crappy, no matter how you look at it. The fact it'll 4+ wound a daemon? Bah.

I think a lot of people who are any Psycannon forget that they are also rending. A 5" pie plate of Str 7 AP 4 rending? Yes, please!

[Cyberscape7]

Right, a str 8 psycannon would have made the Dreadknight competitive with the psyrifle dread. Instead, the heavy psycannon sucks.

Even tho its not S8, it is still a S7 rending weapon so that kind of makes up for it, and gives it the anti-tank support you want. Sure it can't be relied upon to blow up Land Raiders, but thats why you take a vindicare.

[DarkLink]

One single str 7 shot isn't enough to do anything to tanks with any reliability. The heavy psycannon sucks because it has a large blast, not because it has a normal psycannon statline. You can only ever hit a vehicle once with its full strength, making it a very poor AT choice, especially compared to normal psycannons.

[isotope99]

I took one this weekend and he's a valuabel distration and almost impossible to kill without AP2 (very army dependent) which draws fire away from the heavier transport options like the strom raven and land raider.

I took the heavy incinerator but woudl now favour just the teleporter to get in your opponents face faster and out jump melta guns. Plus a 30" jump to take/contest from a potentially scoring model is just nasty.

[plawolf]

Well, what isotope99 said was quite interesting, and I have some spare time, so I have a quick crack at mathhammer.

Now, a Dreadknight with teleporter is the same cost as a bare bones stormraven. In you also take a heavy psycannon on the Dknight, and psybolts on the raven, the dreadknight comes out as 20pts more expensive.

The stormraven can go flat out and do 24" in a turn, while the Dknight can blink 30", both can shoot 1 weapon after such a move (well, the DKnight can shoot two, but why would you buy another gun?), so I would consider them to be fairly similar.

The following results are based on assuming BS4 shooting all round, the Dknight gets no cover save, and I ignored crew shaken and stunned results, and combined the two damage and two destroyed results together for ease of calculating.

For the SRaven, I didn't bother doing it by shot, and the results are assuming the weapon fired all shots possible (rapid fired in the case of plasma).

DKnight
Weapon - wound prob per shot - wound prob from full shooting

Bolter - 1.39% - 2.78%
Lascannon - 27.78% - 27.78%
Missile - 6.94% - 6.94%
Autocannon - 4.17% - 8.33%
Plasma - 16.67% - 33.33%
AssCan - 4.17% - 16.67% (50% with rending)

SRaven
Weapon - Damaged - destroyed - combined - Damaged* - destroyed* - combined*

Bolter - n/a
Lascannon - 11.11% - 8.33% - 19.44% - 5.56% - 4.17% - 9.72%
Missile - 8.33% - 5.56% - 13.89% - 4.17% - 2.78 - 6.94%
Autocannon - 8.33% - 5.56% - 13.89% - 4.17% - 2.78 - 6.94%
Plasma - 8.33% - 5.56% - 13.89% - 4.17% - 2.78 - 6.94%
AssCan - 11.11% - 44.44% - 55.56% - 5.56% - 22.22% - 27.78%

*If SRaven moved flat out

Bare in mind that the DKnight has 4 wounds, and cannot be IDed in shooting, while the percentages were for inflicting a single wound.

There's the numbers, I will leave you all to make of that how you will.

[plawolf]

I decided to attached the workings if someone wants to check my numbers or have a play around with the formulas to work out the results using different parameters.

----------------
Edit, scratch that as I cannot seem to attach excel worksheets. Anyone who wish to do the above will just have to do the hard work themselves. :/

[Xas]

Well, what isotope99 said was quite interesting, and I have some spare time, so I have a quick crack at mathhammer.

Now, a Dreadknight with teleporter is the same cost as a bare bones stormraven. In you also take a heavy psycannon on the Dknight, and psybolts on the raven, the dreadknight comes out as 20pts more expensive.

The stormraven can go flat out and do 24" in a turn, while the Dknight can blink 30", both can shoot 1 weapon after such a move (well, the DKnight can shoot two, but why would you buy another gun?), so I would consider them to be fairly similar.

The following results are based on assuming BS4 shooting all round, the Dknight gets no cover save, and I ignored crew shaken and stunned results, and combined the two damage and two destroyed results together for ease of calculating.

For the SRaven, I didn't bother doing it by shot, and the results are assuming the weapon fired all shots possible (rapid fired in the case of plasma).

DKnight
Weapon - wound prob per shot - wound prob from full shooting

Bolter - 1.39% - 2.78%
Lascannon - 27.78% - 27.78%
Missile - 6.94% - 6.94%
Autocannon - 4.17% - 8.33%
Plasma - 16.67% - 33.33%
AssCan - 4.17% - 16.67% (50% with rending)

SRaven
Weapon - Damaged - destroyed - combined - Damaged* - destroyed* - combined*

Bolter - n/a
Lascannon - 11.11% - 8.33% - 19.44% - 5.56% - 4.17% - 9.72%
Missile - 8.33% - 5.56% - 13.89% - 4.17% - 2.78 - 6.94%
Autocannon - 8.33% - 5.56% - 13.89% - 4.17% - 2.78 - 6.94%
Plasma - 8.33% - 5.56% - 13.89% - 4.17% - 2.78 - 6.94%
AssCan - 11.11% - 44.44% - 55.56% - 5.56% - 22.22% - 27.78%

*If SRaven moved flat out

Bare in mind that the DKnight has 4 wounds, and cannot be IDed in shooting, while the percentages were for inflicting a single wound.

There's the numbers, I will leave you all to make of that how you will.

Sorry, I'm not gona check/correct the math (for that kinda work I dont care enough) but I can't take any of this work serious if you say you calculate the probability for doing 1 wound and then just multiply the % by the number of shots for multi-shot weapons.

[Tynskel]

Sorry, I'm not gona check/correct the math (for that kinda work I dont care enough) but I can't take any of this work serious if you say you calculate the probability for doing 1 wound and then just multiply the % by the number of shots for multi-shot weapons.

hah- why not? He told you what he did, and it makes a decent approximation.

Essentially, you have to take all the math with a grain of salt, because it is making horrendous assumptions. But that is what you have to do to make any sense of it all.

The other option would be to set up a simulator. Then force it with Monte Carlo distributions. but that is a lot of work! And you would have to validate it all. Even more work. However, if someone did this, that would be good for all the math heads.

[Sonikgav]

Personally i never bother with Math Hammer.

What im gonna do is take my Dreadknight, Experiment with it, and if its not what i hoped or doesnt fit with my style of play it will go on the shelf next to my Space Wolf Landraider and my Trygon Prime.

Im taking a much more anti-infantry role than most would like but with 2 Psyrifle dreads and a Vindicare thats already alot more Anti-tank than my usual armies take. The way i see it, Grey Knights already have alot of Anti-Infantry shooting but they also have (or at least my list does with the number of Psycannons) alot of Midrange firepower that can also deal with armour.

A big unit that can act as a distraction, and pile on more firepower against infantry units will move the list from infantry supression to Infantry Annihilation and its easier to win if your opponent has no Scoring units :)

[Xas]

hah- why not? He told you what he did, and it makes a decent approximation.



when there is one conceptual mistake in a mathematical paper and the person has no scientifical backround to show (which is true for everyone in an online forum) then there is no reason to trust any other similar work they did.

the conclusion to this is that you'd have to totally redo it if you'd want to make any statement on the facts discussed.



and btw: math doesnt make assumptions. the people that do it make the assumptions and if you arent just trowing around "smart terms" but really know about MC-simulations then you should know that the real skill in the business is in knowing which assumptions you can get away with and which are to far from workable.

[Tynskel]

Hellz dude, I know what the Monte Carlos do.

I work with earth system models. You would need the Monte Carlo sims to drive this type of simulator because of the 'random' decision making that people do, ie humans don't always pick the best move. there is a large amount of non-linearities in 40k, and to do make a 40k simulator would be crazy.

[plawolf]

when there is one conceptual mistake in a mathematical paper and the person has no scientifical backround to show (which is true for everyone in an online forum) then there is no reason to trust any other similar work they did.

the conclusion to this is that you'd have to totally redo it if you'd want to make any statement on the facts discussed.

and btw: math doesnt make assumptions. the people that do it make the assumptions and if you arent just trowing around "smart terms" but really know about MC-simulations then you should know that the real skill in the business is in knowing which assumptions you can get away with and which are to far from workable.

Not trying to be picky, but I think there is a conceptual mistake in taking a quick 10-15min calculation for a rough approximation of the odds in a GAME as a serious academic paper worthy of publishing.

At the end of the day, you will be chucking fistfuls of dice, and even in the most extreme lists, no one will be throwing enough dice for the small difference from my workings to make any perceptible difference, to anyone.

Now if you are quite finished with your ego trip trying to show how much you know about statistics, can we steer the discussion back to the original topic please? Because I couldn't give a flying **** about Monte Carlos simulators.

[isotope99]

The basic point is that monstrous creatures can take a lot of hits and can't be killed by one lucky shot which everyone already knows.

Another fun tactic to try might be to use a jump knight as a guard for rhinos full of purifiers or henchmen chimeras etc. The super sized base gives a chance to give cover to at least one, maybe two transports and the 12" move lets them stay ahead of the vehicle and should help keep melta guns away. Sounds particularly useful against long fangs. If the vehicle gets destroyed, it will be harder to assault the contents as the enemy would have to go round the dreadkinght.

[gcsmith]

hmm its base size reallky doesnt matter as the vehicles have to have 50% of los blocked, otherwise good idea.

[Tynskel]

Monsterous Creature vs D-Cannon. Small possibility of Warp Crush.

[Sonikgav]

The only thing tempting me away from the Dreadknight is that its the exact same cost as 5 purifiers in a psybolt Razorback with 2 psycannons, 2 halberds and a hammer.

[greenstuff777]

Have any of you actually play tested lists with the dread knight. I run two and have flipped land raiders and all sorts of other mech stuff np. Been playing against space wolves and blood angels non-stop and haven't lost yet. I am of course running a purifiers with the dread knight but he IS AMAZING.

My Vote for Dreadknight 10/10

P.S. The heavy psycannon is fairly good against infantry remember DAEMONS DON'T HAVE LAND RAIDERS

Remember the Fluff

[DarkLink]

But they do have Daemon Engines, like Defilers.

[Bean]

I have played a dreadknight--it's decent with the teleporter. 30" scout move really puts it in your face early on, and it does put out pretty good damage in combat. After playing it, I've begun to think that the sword is probably worth it, in addition to the teleporter--with fists not doubling the DK's strength, the re-rolls are really worth twenty points and the loss of an attack.

[Xas]

Not trying to be picky, but I think there is a conceptual mistake in taking a quick 10-15min calculation for a rough approximation of the odds in a GAME as a serious academic paper worthy of publishing.

At the end of the day, you will be chucking fistfuls of dice, and even in the most extreme lists, no one will be throwing enough dice for the small difference from my workings to make any perceptible difference, to anyone.

Now if you are quite finished with your ego trip trying to show how much you know about statistics, can we steer the discussion back to the original topic please? Because I couldn't give a flying **** about Monte Carlos simulators.


still the same principles apply.
if I can find small holes with ONE GLANCE (aka 500ms) who says there arent many?

and you might want to start hateing on the guy that actually brought MC-sim into the conversation.

this however doesnt change my initial message: mathhammer is only ever worth more than thin air when it is correct. If I'd have half arsed mathhammer or my gut feeling (or "gaming experience") to trust I'd choose the later.

its not hard to find out that a dreadknight is good versus anything that has a good chance of busting dreadnoughts/tanks (meltas, lascannons, railguns,...) simply because it takes at least 4 hits from those weapons for the dreadknight to be destroyed and it will work at 100% capacity until it is death while one lucky hit can kill the toughest of tanks or shut it down completely for one turn (not so for GK vehicles but the genereal gist stays).

for that power you pay the price that every weapon in the game has a chance of doing harm (even if the 2+ goes a long way) and many weapons can easily do wounds to a dreadknight while they would have very bad chances vs vehicles (plasma).


as for the naked DK: you basically get 4 terminators for the price of 3 1/4 and t6 for free while only loosing shooting from the 3 stormbolters those termies would have had...

[Bean]

still the same principles apply.
if I can find small holes with ONE GLANCE (aka 500ms) who says there arent many?

and you might want to start hateing on the guy that actually brought MC-sim into the conversation.

this however doesnt change my initial message: mathhammer is only ever worth more than thin air when it is correct. If I'd have half arsed mathhammer or my gut feeling (or "gaming experience") to trust I'd choose the later.

its not hard to find out that a dreadknight is good versus anything that has a good chance of busting dreadnoughts/tanks (meltas, lascannons, railguns,...) simply because it takes at least 4 hits from those weapons for the dreadknight to be destroyed and it will work at 100% capacity until it is death while one lucky hit can kill the toughest of tanks or shut it down completely for one turn (not so for GK vehicles but the genereal gist stays).

for that power you pay the price that every weapon in the game has a chance of doing harm (even if the 2+ goes a long way) and many weapons can easily do wounds to a dreadknight while they would have very bad chances vs vehicles (plasma).


as for the naked DK: you basically get 4 terminators for the price of 3 1/4 and t6 for free while only loosing shooting from the 3 stormbolters those termies would have had...

While I generally agree with you on the math, your comparison to termies is a little lacking.

Four terminators take twice as many swings as the naked dreadknight (and the gap widens further when we consider the swings either option takes while charging) has better initiative (halberds) worse WS, worse S and T, and degrades as it takes wounds. All are relevant factors you failed to include.

Further, of course, are the facts that the Terminators score, don't compete for heavy support slots with RifleDreads, and can take a psycannon--the single most important thing in the whole Grey Knights army--while the Dreadknight is left with anti-infantry guns that the Grey Knights don't really need (even though they are pretty good anti-infantry guns).

It took me about half-a-second to come up with a critical flaw in your comparison (and only a few more seconds to find half a dozen more). Does that mean we should discount everything you're saying?

[thecactusman17]

But they do have Daemon Engines, like Defilers.

You do realize that even with the S7 (I can all but guarantee you this will eventually be S10) any walker attacking a MC in close combat is going to get absolutely slaughtered? Right?

Dreadknights w/ jump packs are great anti-tank units, and can do some really impressive shooting as well. These guys were MADE to alpha-strike. Three in a list getting to shunt will wipe most enemy wall formations out.

I would take the Heavy Incinerator, the Heavy Psycannon and the teleport homer. The first shooting phase is used to pop open any light tanks or to wipe waay large infantry formations for the assault phase, where you move through whatever lines are left and either assault infantry or preferably tanks. Just remember, heavy incinerators get to start that flame template wherever. I would place it so that just the edge will actually touch the vehicle in question, the rest will burn away whatever is bubblewrapping the unit (or even catch one or two other vehicles if they are all bunched together like a Chimera wall).

Oh, and don't forget that even half-strength shots from that Heavy Psycannon can rend through armor.

[DarkLink]

I'm talking about fluff. People are always like "dude, GKs should suck against tanks 'cause daemons don't have tanks", and I'm like "dude, learn reading comprehension". True story. Not really.

[thecactusman17]

Ah. I think I misinterpreted your post o be that Grey Knights had no anti-tank options. And while i will accept that those options are not as robust as some other codices, I was trying to point out that the Dreadknight itself is an alpha-strike anti-tank weapon.

Clearly, I made a mistake there. Thank you for correcting me.

[Exterminatus]

Well to answer some of Plawolf's original questions. Yes the dreadknight can claim an objective as a troop if a GM uses GS and makes it a troop. Keep in mind it's a MC not a walker. Doomfist count as Dreadnought CCW's, do dreadnought ccw's double thier strength? How to make it " more attactive you say? " Keep in mind this thing was made to combat and counter greater daemons, most daemons i run into... and trust me i run into a few, have a 4++ save. The DK has terminator armor save 2/5. I think the inv save should be droped down to 4++ so it has a 2/4 save, heck swap the 2 for the 5 and make it 3/4 instead of 2/5. Or maybe have it so the Nemisis greatsword confers the same ability as the normal force sword of making your inv. save better by +1. And to the other guy, yes the heavy psy cannon does suck large blast 1 shot is not very cool, i roll scatter dice like #$%^ it makes me sad.

"To the righteous we bring hope. To the tainted we bring fire."

- Castellan Garran Crowe

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I'm taking two. They're fluffy, I like them and I largely ignore most tanks by getting stuff into close combat ASAP and hiding. Obviously some anti-tank stuff is needed, but that's what Land Raiders and Storm Ravens are for (sort of). I'm used to having bugger all anti tank (have a daemon army), so it's no skin off my nose - I can win without them. Besides, there are plenty of other anti tank options in the Grey Knights codex if you look for them. Grenades are your friends too.
The Dreadknights are great models IMO (not quite as keen on the harness bit, but still) and are good for distraction and monstrous creature hunting, as well as anti vehicle actually, given a teleporter. There seems to be a lot of assumption that they will be shot to pieces etc etc - not if you keep them out of the way until the last minute mes amis! I have learnt the virtues of "HOLD!" whilst playing with my now departed Dark Eldar - everything comes to he who waits...jump pack monstrous creatures are so good! Especially with tasty ranged weapons too!

[Xas]

It took me about half-a-second to come up with a critical flaw in your comparison (and only a few more seconds to find half a dozen more). Does that mean we should discount everything you're saying?

wow someone got it.

yes you are to ignore that last line as it is rubbish. I was trying to give an example in words of how usefull/useless a faulthy conclusion is. +1internetz for realising that ;)

[BlindGunn]

Well, I played a Friend's GK army twice now. At lower points levels (1500 - 1750), he has decided to drop it for a bit.

- It takes up too many points with "all the toys" he likes
- His 2 Dreadnaughts last longer (Dreadknight doesn't seem to last long as a fire-magnet against my Tau...)
- His model keeps breaking every time he tries to transport it away from his house.

I think it's a neat model and some of the features are nice, but yeah, it does cut down on the rest of the army when you load it up. My friend is one of those guys that "needs more boots on the ground" to make an army work for him.

In a larger game (2000pts +), I would expect to see at least 1 if not 2.

[sps62487]

Personally I want to run two for fluff reasons. I plan on running a GK army that is pink tinted (metallic with a pink tinge to it). I plan on modding both of the dreadknights with a tutu. One will have long blond hair (girl face) and the other will have short black hair (also female). If anyone remembers the cartoon called Dexter's Laboratory? Many people think I am crazy or stupid. But, I hate GK's fluff as they are the Men in Black/Spanish Inquisition, and that the world must be cleansed because it is tarnished with chaos blah blah blah, and noone needs to know we were here even if it is the imperium. They are basically the inquisition. Now I do like how the founding of the chapter was formed but the MIB/spanish inquisition i just don't like.

I think they will last longer than a normal dreadnought and have some pretty cool abilities. Many of the GK weapons are not long range anyway but that is why people prefer landraiders and long range weapons that the dreadnoughts can have. But you have to remember that it's purpose is to kill huge things like tyranids and greater demons (supposed to)

[egorene]

I take 2 when I take them .
Devastators , Terminators are the primary targets
the first uses a sword and the h.Psibolter
the second psilencer and the h.Psibolter

a 5 man squad is wiped out after 1 round of shooting
the only execption is a terminator squad with vulcan (who dies only if he gets hit with h.Bolters)

[Root]

Short answer: yes. Now here are my reasons...

1. I bought him.
2. I kinda like him.
3. He is a bullet magnet. Anything that shoots him isn't shooting the important crap in my army.
4. If he is alive, his teleporter will make him an aggrivating thorn in any opponent's side.
5. Chances are if he lives past the first few turns he'll do something useful.

[Bean]

My wife and I have played a teleport/sword knight in a handful of games, so far. He doesn't always do a ton, and he doesn't always survive, but he often does more than enough and he often sucks up enough shots that his death doesn't feel unreasonable. He's expensive, maybe not quite worth it, but he's cool, adds some variety, and some fast close combat that's really good at anti-tanking. (plus that awesome first-turn shunt punch when the stars align just right.)

He's probably not the ultimate in competitive-edge choices--it's hard to compete with psy-rifle dread in that department--but he's definitely good and we're likely to keep playing him, in some 1500 point armies and most armies over that value.

[plawolf]

Is the sword much good in AT? I have been tempted as the rerolls would go a long way to help make up for the relatively modest number of attacks. But I wasn't sure if the loss of strength or attacks in AT would justify the extra cost.

[Bean]

Is the sword much good in AT? I have been tempted as the rerolls would go a long way to help make up for the relatively modest number of attacks. But I wasn't sure if the loss of strength or attacks in AT would justify the extra cost.

It is, yes. Unless you're attacking, like, Land Raiders that didn't move (i.e. autohitting against AV:14) the sword is basically better at anti-tank than any of the other options. I can run some numbers if you want, but I have run them previously.

That said, it is substantially more expensive than just a pair of fists, and the return to cost ratio against some types of vehicles is, perhaps, underwhelming. Return to cost against anything moving cruising speed, though, is pretty substantial, and that includes a lot of transports (and, thus, a lot of vehicles in general).

Also, of course, if you're not playing that the fists double your strength, the Sword is basically better against everything. Re-rolls make up for a lot. I mean, imagine you're hitting on fours--you take four swings (three base, one for charging) and you miss two, as expected. Re-rolls to hit now give you two extra attacks--that's routinely better than the one extra attack you're getting from double close combat weapons. Sometimes it's the same, sometimes its better still, but its only rarely worse.

If the vehicle stood still, the difference is much smaller, but even there re-rolls to pen are worth something.

[FlangeNabber]

My Dreadnight has become a staple in my 2000 point build. Hes armed with greatsword & incinerator and rearly fails to get his points back.

Only twice out of seven games so far has he been killed and even then once was against guard where he soaked up so much attention the rest of my army was able to pop open the cans and kill the contents at ease. It was all over in 3 game turns (partly thanks to only rolling 5 or 6 with every pen on guard vehicles)

I've tried out the personal teleporter but found it tends to make him a bit vulnerable unless you have plenty of fast moving support to go with him. I think I'll be leaving the teleporter behind most games.

The greatsword was a revelation fist time I used it & matched with the heavy incinerator it makes this guy magic against tyrinids. The last outing he killed 7 Yeamgal stealers, a lone broodlord, 13 gaunts and a tervigon. This pretty much single handedly won me the game as the shooting units he was supporting managed to stay out of those guys reach and free to shoot up the bugs on the other flank.

I think you would get deminishing returns from multiple dreadknights the way I use them but on the other hand give them teleporters and I think 2 or 3 dreadnights so that they can support each other would be great fun and very hard to stop:D

[thecactusman17]

Do you get rerolls to pen with the sword? Remember, rerolls to wound and rerolls to penetrate are two different things.

[BrokenWing]

If I remember correctly, it says that you do.

[Image]

All I'm saying is that a Dreadnought can't be force-weapon'd out of existence. :P

From someone who has fought against the Dreadknight, I think he's an interesting model with some interesting roles, even if a bit over-costed (which I'm hesitant to say as it's a T6 model with a 2+ save and 5+ invuln). All the same, I deal with him by having not shooting at him, allowing Meph to simply force weapon him. I know not every army has that ability, but I'm simply trying to indicate that the dreadknight is a huge bullet magnet and that alone is worth a fair amount. :)

[plawolf]

All I'm saying is that a Dreadnought can't be force-weapon'd out of existence. :P

From someone who has fought against the Dreadknight, I think he's an interesting model with some interesting roles, even if a bit over-costed (which I'm hesitant to say as it's a T6 model with a 2+ save and 5+ invuln). All the same, I deal with him by having not shooting at him, allowing Meph to simply force weapon him. I know not every army has that ability, but I'm simply trying to indicate that the dreadknight is a huge bullet magnet and that alone is worth a fair amount. :)

Very risky to use Meph against a dreadknight, especially one with a Nemesis greatsword, since that is a NFW, so gives 4++ in CC to the DK, and is also a force weapon.

Considering how common GK librarians are, chances are there will be one nearby to hood Meph so his force weapon doesn't pop. Assuming Meph also stops the DK force weapon activating, Meph is still in trouble since he has no Inv save, while half the wounds he does to the DK will be saved.

Meph might get more attacks, but with the greatsword re-rolling everything, the DK could easily cause more wounds. With the Inv save, and Meph is in serious trouble if he cannot force weapon the DK. Very risky move.

[Bean]

Nemesis Greatsword doesn't improve the Dreadknight's invulnerable in close combat. That's the Nemesis Force Sword--an entirely different weapon altogether. Greatswords give you a bunch of re-rolls. Force Swords give you a better invulnerable in combat.

[Anggul]

Dreadknights really aren't meant to for fire-support, they're meant for combat, the idea is to get them in there wherever possible and cut things up. The guns are just a little bonus, and make the model looks better, but they aren't it's main feature.