Mindstrike Missiles Question

[KingStuart]

The rules for the mindstrike missiles on the GK stormraven say that `any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffer the perils of the warp in addition to any other effects.' [emphasis mine]

It is clear how this works in the case that the psyker is on it's own. Each hit causes a perils of the warp as well as the chance to wound normally.

What is less clear is how this should work when the psyker is in a unit, since when we fire blast weapons we just count the number of hits and the controlling player is then free to allocate any wounds caused to any member of the unit rather than those under the blast, so those models under the template aren't really `hit'. This seems to suggest that it doesn't matter if that the psyker was under the template or not.

However if we then go about rolling to wound as normal we then allocate wounds rather than hits so we have potentially lost a lot of perils of the warp attacks.

e.g. i fire four mindstrike missiles at a five man squad of marines with a librarian attached and score 9 hits, 2 of which were hits against the psyker. Does the psyker suffer two perils as a result of the two `hits'? If not suppose I roll to wound a score 5 wounds and they are all allocated to the 5 marines, what happens now? None of the hits have been allocated to the psyker but there are 4 hits that didn't would and thus weren't allocated. Should these `wrap round' like wounds do (so the psyker suffers one perils) or do they get ignored (the psyker sufferes no perils)?

I have absolutely no idea how this is supposed to work, can anybody help?

[Wildcard]

e.g. i fire four mindstrike missiles at a five man squad of marines with a librarian attached and score 9 hits, 2 of which were hits against the psyker. Does the psyker suffer two perils as a result of the two `hits'?

Well, i would approach the situation like this:

2 hits to the psyker (one from each missile hit) -> 2 perils of the warp attacks -> two different colored dice from the rest of the wounds -> roll invulnerable saves (if any, and remember to re-roll successfull rolls, since its perils of the warp -test) against the psyker only.

9 'regular' hits -> 9 dice (different colors than the Perils dice) -> roll to wound normally -> allocate the wounds as you see fit

However, i do not know whether or not you can / are allowed to allocate 'normal' wounds to the psyker as long as you haven't allocated these wounds to every other single squad member of that squad..

note: it is not necessarily needed to use different colored dice, it was more to help to pay attention the situation.

EDIT

Mindstrike missiles can cause 2 wounds to a single psyker maximum. The perils of the warp (regardless of the toughness,armor,etc) and a wound from the regular characteristics of the weapon (toughness and armor affects the outcome of this wound)

Although after re-reading mindstrike missile description, i can see why you brought this up.. yet i feel that atleast for the moment, my view stands :)
/EDIT

[Hive Mind]

If a psyker is attached to a unit then they'll only be affected if your opponent decides (or is forced) to allocate a wound to the psyker would be my interpretation. Without a wound being allocated there's no other way to tell who has been hit.

Seems to be intended to fight daemons. Greater daemons aren't IC's so the question probably wouldn't arise if Knights were used to fight who they're meant to instead of being made into a "come-and-have-a-go-if-you-think-you're-hard-enough" army.

[Wildcard]

If a psyker is attached to a unit then they'll only be affected if your opponent decides (or is forced) to allocate a wound to the psyker would be my interpretation. Without a wound being allocated there's no other way to tell who has been hit.


Yeah, this seems to be true, was just about to edit my own post when Hive Mind posted..

Just allocate wounds from the blast as you see fit (and rules dictate), and if you allocated a wound to a psyker, then he takes the perils of the warp test and normal save(if allowed by the weapons ap profile)

My bad, was too hasty to give a proper and reasonable answer - sorry 'bout that :)

[KingStuart]

My problem with this interpretation is that it seems to be very different from the case when the psyker is alone.
But equally I have a problem with Wildcards original resolution, in that it seems to go against the rules for blast weapons.

The problem seems to be that hits get allocated to units rather than individual models.

Also, what would happen if these were shot at other grey knights? I think it would be one perils per missile but I'm really not sure.

EDIT:

Having considered exactly what my objections are to each interpretation, it seems that it is best to resolve the situation as Hive Mind suggests than any other.

Thanks for the help :)

[Col.Gravis]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that interpretation.

I would take it to indicate that if the Pysker is under the blast (i.e. physically hit by the template) they will suffer a perils of the warp attack, while the normal effects of the blast, (i.e. any wounds inflicted which is otherwise referenced as other effects) would be allocated as normal across the squad.

I would argue that the other interpretation would only be correct if the rule read 'any psyker wounded by a mindstrike missile suffer the perils of the warp in addition to any other effects.', the two are distinctly different.

[Whoop!]

I was under the impression that the psyker suffered from perils of the warp, not had to roll for perils of the warp. Take one wound no armor or cover saves.

My opponent came up with that, and reading it that's what I got from it. That's what makes it oh so good!

[Wildcard]

not had to roll for perils of the warp. Take one wound no armor or cover saves.


You can take invulnerable saves against perils of the warp, however, you need to re-roll any successfull rolls.

---

Hit by a weapon results in having to test whether or not the weapon wounded.. this would lead to a conclusion that a psyker that is hit, anyway test if the 'normal' part of the missile wounded him/it..

[Mr.Pickelz]

if the template hits a psyker model, then the model suffers a perils in addition to anything else that goes on (IE, Wounds). he does not have to be wounded by the template to receive the perils, just touched by it.

[Col.Gravis]

Hit by a weapon results in having to test whether or not the weapon wounded..

No that is a roll to 'wound'.

A roll to 'hit' is the preceding roll, in the case of a template it is done with a scatter dice.

If the template is over the model it is 'hit'.

Note pg30 of the mini-rulebook which says 'all models whose bases are completely or partially covered by the blast marker are hit'.

Thus the Pysker receives a Perils of the Warp attack for being hit in the first place and in addition they may be affected by the normal impact of the weapon through wound allocation.

[Hive Mind]

To those quibbling my interpretation, which models actually lay under a blast marker/template is, and always has been, immaterial.

Without wounds being allocated there is no way to say who is hit, at least not in the rules. Again, IMO, Mindstrikes are designed to target Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes; single model units that commonly are also psykers.

[Col.Gravis]

Reference it to the rulebook then.

Again I will quote page 30 on blast weapons.

'all models whose bases are completely or partially covered by the blast marker are hit'.

Hits are not allocated, a model is hit, or it is not.

Thus,

'any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffer the perils of the warp'

You are equating that a hit = a wound, but they are two separate stages in the normal process. Models are hit. Wounds are rolled. Wounds inflicted are then allocated before saving. This rule breaks that process by sitting between being hit and wounding, thus there is no allocation with regards to it.

[DarkLink]

I agree with the colonel. You place the template over the psyker, and the psyker takes a perils attack. You also cause a str 4 hit on the unit, which the other player may allocate as normal.

[Hive Mind]

Reference it to the rulebook then.

Again I will quote page 30 on blast weapons.

'all models whose bases are completely or partially covered by the blast marker are hit'.

Hits are not allocated, a model is hit, or it is not.

Thus,

'any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffer the perils of the warp'

You are equating that a hit = a wound, but they are two separate stages in the normal process. Models are hit. Wounds are rolled. Wounds inflicted are then allocated before saving. This rule breaks that process by sitting between being hit and wounding, thus there is no allocation with regards to it.

Yeah, you're right. My bad.

[Lerra]

Seems to be intended to fight daemons. Greater daemons aren't IC's so the question probably wouldn't arise if Knights were used to fight who they're meant to instead of being made into a "come-and-have-a-go-if-you-think-you're-hard-enough" army.

Most daemons are not psykers, so strangely enough the psi-strike effects don't harm them.

[Hive Mind]

3/4 types of GDs and 4/5 DPs can be psykers, is what I meant.

[plawolf]

I think mindstrike missiles were put in to help GKs on the table as opposed to being fluff driven.

With GKs benefiting so much from psy powers, anti-psy would naturally become a big focus for their opponents, and most psy defense comes from other psykers. In addition, GKs have a distinct lack of psy defense options themselves.

Mindstrikes is an effective means of countering enemy psy defense and psykers, allowing GKs to use the fully array of their abilities and strengths instead of being hamstrung by the likes of hoods or being too vulnerable to the likes of lash.

[Shipmonkey]

3/4 types of GDs and 4/5 DPs can be psykers, is what I meant.

What game are you playing?

There are no psyker GDs. Only the DP from the Chaos Marines 'dex can be a psyker, all five of the DPs from the Daemon 'dex cannot be psykers.

[Hive Mind]

What game are you playing?

There are no psyker GDs. Only the DP from the Chaos Marines 'dex can be a psyker, all five of the DPs from the Daemon 'dex cannot be psykers.

Fluffy games. A lot of the daemonic gifts are psychic powers.

Yeah, yeah. Not RAW. We don't play RAW when RAW makes no sense.

I keep forgetting how slavish most of you guys are to RAW.

[Shipmonkey]

Fluffy games. A lot of the daemonic gifts are psychic powers.

Yeah, yeah. Not RAW. We don't play RAW when RAW makes no sense.

I keep forgetting how slavish most of you guys are to RAW.

I'll assume you guys have the worst fan-wank fluffy game in existance then.

The lack of psychic powers for Daemons is one of GWs fluffiest ideas ever. Being that nearly all the rules for psychic powers in the game revolve around trying to channel the Warp via a mortal mind, why should daemons (who are the Warp given form) worry about "Perils of the Warp"?

[Hive Mind]

I'll assume you guys have the worst fan-wank fluffy game in existance then.

The lack of psychic powers for Daemons is one of GWs fluffiest ideas ever. Being that nearly all the rules for psychic powers in the game revolve around trying to channel the Warp via a mortal mind, why should daemons (who are the Warp given form) worry about "Perils of the Warp"?

Swing and a miss.

[Shipmonkey]

Swing and a miss.

You have excellently refuted my point. I guess I shouldn't have expected any better from some one answering a rules question with their own special house rules.

[Lerra]

I agree here, it is unfluffy for daemons to be psykers. They are made of warpstuff. They do not channel warpstuff, or take psychic tests.

If you play DnD, think of it in terms of the difference between a Wizard and a Fire Elemental. The Fire Elemental is made of magic but he is not a caster.

[Hive Mind]

You have excellently refuted my point. I guess I shouldn't have expected any better from some one answering a rules question with their own special house rules.

You had no point to refute. You made an assumption. An assumption that was erroneous.

And I didn't answer the rules question with houserules. As it happens my answer was incorrect, but not based on houserules.

[Skragger]

I read it as being "hit" by the template, so as long as they're under the template they take the test - reguardless of whether they take a wound or not.

This would be so much fun to use on a psycher battle squad!

[Kawauso]

Psyker Battle Squads only count as a single psyker, do they not? A-la Brotherhood of Psykers and the Psykers that Inquisitors can take in their warbands.

So, only 1 peril wound.

[Xas]

Psyker Battle Squads only count as a single psyker, do they not? A-la Brotherhood of Psykers and the Psykers that Inquisitors can take in their warbands.

So, only 1 peril wound.

one peril that can potentially remove multiple models as by their special rule :)

[DarkLink]

If they suffer perils, every single psyker dies.

[Hive Mind]

So I was just idly perusing the Nerons FAQ when I saw a clarifier for the Particle Whip that might have some relevance here...


Q. Can the AP1 hit from the particle whip be
assigned to any member of a squad or does it
have to be assigned to the model under the
centre of the template?

A. Any model directly under the centre of the
large blast template of the particle whip takes an
AP1 hit. The rules for blast weapons state that the
defending player may remove casualties from the
unit as a whole, not necessarily those under the
template, and this rule still applies here, so the
player can assign the AP1 hit to any model in the
unit.


My emphasis, natch.

[grooshmonkey]

So I was just idly perusing the Nerons FAQ when I saw a clarifier for the Particle Whip that might have some relevance here...



My emphasis, natch.

The particle whip has to roll to wound, which makes it different, since wounds are allocated.

Particle whip:
Dude gets hit by the template, but you allocate the wound to someone else.

Minstrike Missile:
Dude get hits by the template, you can allocate the wound to someone else, but you cannot allocate the perils of the warp.

[Hive Mind]

The FAQ suggests that a hit can be allocated to any model in the unit irrespective of whether a roll to wound is caused or not.

[Lemt]

I'll assume you guys have the worst fan-wank fluffy game in existance then.

The lack of psychic powers for Daemons is one of GWs fluffiest ideas ever. Being that nearly all the rules for psychic powers in the game revolve around trying to channel the Warp via a mortal mind, why should daemons (who are the Warp given form) worry about "Perils of the Warp"?

Daemons ARE the "Perils in the Warp". What surprises me is that they lack (as far as I know) anti-psyker defense. "You're a mortal mind trying to channel the Warp? I'm, like, a Greater Daemon, and I'm standing RIGHT HERE. So no."

[wkz]

Daemons ARE the "Perils in the Warp". What surprises me is that they lack (as far as I know) anti-psyker defense. "You're a mortal mind trying to channel the Warp? I'm, like, a Greater Daemon, and I'm standing RIGHT HERE. So no."I do believe when someone in the 40k universe is trying to channel the warp, they're trying to use the ENERGY from the warp itself, rather than all the screaming souls and brain-eating daemons that are IN the warp...



The FAQ suggests that a hit can be allocated to any model in the unit irrespective of whether a roll to wound is caused or not.The HIT is allocated for a TO WOUND roll. The act of allocation changes the nature of the item.

And you'd need to HIT something first before you have a hit to allocate to another model to wound, right?

[grooshmonkey]

I do believe when someone in the 40k universe is trying to channel the warp, they're trying to use the ENERGY from the warp itself, rather than all the screaming souls and brain-eating daemons that are IN the warp...


The HIT is allocated for a TO WOUND roll. The act of allocation changes the nature of the item.

And you'd need to HIT something first before you have a hit to allocate to another model to wound, right?


What makes people think that daemons don't attack other daemons?

I'm sure that if a daemon was in the mortal realm and tried to use warp powers, then another daemon could *****-slap him just like he would do to any other race.

I think the noodle dude has a point, actually. As much as I disagree with his interpretation of the rules, saying things like "The HIT is allocated for a TO WOUND roll. The act of allocation changes the nature of the item." is grasping at straws.

Just because you hit something doesn't mean that you hit the psyker.

[wkz]

...
I think the noodle dude has a point, actually. As much as I disagree with his interpretation of the rules, saying things like "The HIT is allocated for a TO WOUND roll. The act of allocation changes the nature of the item." is grasping at straws.

Just because you hit something doesn't mean that you hit the psyker.
The thing is, and this is not described in the BRB, when is a hit on a very specific model considered a hit, especially by a template?

- When a unit is hit by direct-fire weapons (such as bolters), it is just an ambiguous "counter" with which you assign to members of the targeted squad. This "counter" does not hit anything specific, it only hits "the Unit". And such hits does not affect or is assigned to models (and psykers) within the unit until AFTER successful to-wounds.

- But when a unit is hit by Template/Blast weapons, 2 schools of thought comes to mind:
a) "Models under a template is HIT..." - This is before allocating the hit to models within the unit.

b) " so the player can assign the AP1 hit to any model in the unit..." - This is after the unit's hits are determined... and this is also after the to-wound roll.
...
To be honest, my stance is based on Col.Gravis's case, the above first case for Template/Blast" hits is his.

But you do have a point: if we're treating all rules as the same, "to hit" for templates and blasts will be treated the same as "to hit" for direct-fire weapons... which means only after the hit is resolved into a wound and the wound is assigned to a psyker will the psyker take a Perils check...
...
Huh?

Note the rules for the Mindstrike again: "Psykers HIT with the Mindstrike...". It does not say "Wounded", which is the actual point in any shooting when stuff is actually allocated to any model. Even the AP1 Hit mentioned by Hive Mind's FAQ have to be resolved into a Wound before it can be allocated to a (sacrificial) model, by which time it is already a "wound", not a "hit".

In the end, I still believe Col.Gravis is correct: Unlike direct-fire weapons, we can determine models that are HIT by Templates and Blasts (and the Necron FAQ thing is a blast template too), and the Mindstrike missile can thus Hit a psyker simply by placing the blast right on top of the poor model (and hope for no scattering).