500 Point Guard Tatics

[gubooboo]

Hey guys! I am relativley knew to 40k and only have 1750 points of Ultramarines and am loooking to start a guard army. Here is my 500 point list so far:

HQ
Company command squad -165 pts
-power fist
-medipack
-vox caster
-regimental standard

Troops
Squad 1- 60 pts
-grenade launcher
-vox caster

Squad 2- 60 pts
-grenade launcher
-vox caster

Heavy Weapons squad- 65 pts
-autocannons

Fast Attack
-Heavy Sentinel- 80 pts
l-ascannon
-hunterkiller missle
-smoke launcher

Chimera- 65 pts
-heavy stubber

=500 pts

I figured that the company command squad would stay behind with the sentinel and heavy weapons and basically try to take out any armor and the command ssquad would be there for counter assault while the two infantry squads would move up (one in the chimera) and try to do as much damage as possible before dieing or taking objectives. The vox casters are there for insurance if i have to hang back and take orders for improved shooting. Same thing for the sentinel, the smoke launchers are there if the side and back armor is exposed

Any suggestions:confused:

[w7west]

hm 500 points that may be tough for guard since you can only field about 11 tanks but if you stretch your points you should still be able to fit 50 meltas in the boxes.

[fuzzbuket]

how about 2 punishers, 3 valkires and a gazillion melta vets?

seroiusly id take a LR punisher... 500pts is the infantrymans best friend!

[Iceman]

Ignore the whiners.

Here is my two cents, having played Guard since before they got updated to be strong enough to provide a challenge to all comers:

I think your Company Command Squad has too many upgrades. You really should avoid getting into close combat with your Guard. I would definitely get rid of the medic and regimental standard. I used to use vox casters a lot, but have found that the points can be used more effectively elsewhere. I know they are only 5 points each, but you have to issue them to everyone and they start to add up. You may want to give them a couple of melta guns instead to kill off any monstrous creatures or vehicles.

Don't forget that your troops come with a Platoon Command Squad for free (unless you are getting Veterans, but they cost more points). With the points you saved above, you can easily pass out a bunch of flamers to the PCS. Even Space Marines think twice about getting too close to 3-4 flamers.

I find it is much more effective and points efficient to give autocannons to your infantry squads rather than get a separate heavy weapons squad. Granted, you will only have 2 instead of 3 autocannons but you will have plenty of points left over for other stuff. They will also be harder to kill and give your infantry squads some long-range firepower.

I'm not convinced that sentinels are all that effective, especially heavy sentinels upgraded to 80 points. I would consider using two scout sentinels or even not using them at all and getting another Chimera instead since they can carry your troops and give you more mobility.

I like outfitting my Chimeras with a Heavy Flamer in the hull rather than the default Heavy Bolter, but there are pros and cons to both.

Take a look at those changes and I'll bet you find that you have enough points left over to include another unit. The strength of the guard is in their numbers since they tend to die pretty easily.

[Nungunz]

Hey and welcome to the guard. Unless you are playing with a modified FOC, your list is illegal.

You don't have any legal troop choices. If you take a platoon you need at minimum one Platoon Command Squad and two Infantry Squads (this counts as only one troop choice).

So you need at least 1 PCS and another troop choice to make this legal.

[Iceman]

Good point Nungunz. I'm so used to taking a mix of a platoon and some veterans that I didn't catch it.

[gubooboo]

thanx everyone! with all the comments my new list goes a little like this

HQ
company command squad 70pts
-vox caster
-regimental standard (just cuz they look cool)

Troops
Platoon command squad 65 pts
-power fist
-meltagun x2
Squad 1
-grenade launcher
-vox caster
Squad 2
-grenade launcher
-vox caster
Chimera 65 pts
-heavy stubber

Heavy Support
Leman Russ 185 pts
-las cannon
-heavy bolter sponsons
=500 pts

with this change ill hang back and shoot and have the platoon command squad go on a suicide mission and try to kill anything important.:) Does this list sound good?:confused:

[Nungunz]

Still only have 1 troop choice. You need a second.

[scadugenga]

What Nungunz said.

With 500 points, you really need to decide what you want to do with your army. Go mech, or go infantry.

We started an escalation campaign back in 4th ed codex rules (ouch...) and I went infantry. 55 guys on the table for 500 points, with very little anti-tank, but literally too many bodies for my opponent to kill to table me. You get more options with the 5th ed codex to put boots on the table, too.

My recommendation:

Buy your mandatory units sans upgrades. Then see what else you can/want to add before putting upgrades on your existing units. Don't fall for the trap of making everything pimped out as much as it can be.

Your base all infantry (non vet) list would minimum start at 310 points.

HQ
1 CCS (50)

Troops
1st Platoon
PCS (30)
Squad A (50)
Squad B (50)

2nd Platoon
PCS (30)
Squad A (50)
Squad B (50)

That gives you 190 points for upgrades, additional units, and random toys.

And it will be an absolute headache to your opponent.

If you have a Tau opponent, I recommend a Mortar HWS. Mortars mean his Crisis suits are never 100% safe after they jump back out of LOS... :)

[Slug]

I replied to your post in the army list section so i wont repeat what i said about your original list but for your modified list, please no power fist, the benefits gained are so minimal compared to space marines its not worth it, also don't bother gearing up command squads with meltas, a 5 wound 5+ unit wont even survive turn 1 if it has two meltas, let alone long enough to actually get to enemy tanks. I think your thinking chimeras are a troop choice, think again, they can only be taken as a dedicated and don't take up a FOC slot, drop it for a veteran squad, at the very least you can put the meltas there instead of the platoon command, which is far better off giving orders and leadership support (never forget you can use their leadership).
And as the man with the unpronounceable name said (scadugenga) ne pimp pas, or don't pimp, they are guard, designed to die with minimal cost.

[gubooboo]

so i should go with an infantry heavy list when its just 500 points?

[scadugenga]

You should go with whatever play-style you're wanting to pursue.

500 pts will let you have a smallish mech list

HQ

CCS (50)
Chimera (55)

Troops

Vet Squad Alpha (70)
Chimera (55)

Vet Squad Bravo (70)
Chimera (55)

That's 355 points for your minimum mech squad, leaving you 145 points for upgrades/additional units. The one thing you don't have, is any dedicated antitank at this point, but it's easy enough to add that as upgrades.

You won't be able to afford a Leman Russ, but you could add artillery, sentinels, a hydra, etc.

The one thing you really won't be able to do much with is trying to go hybrid @ 500 points. If you're looking for a hybrid type army--I'd recommend starting either all infantry, or all mech, and then expand from their into the wider choice of options.

With the mech list above, what I would personally do, is take 80 points, and add 2 autocannon sentinels (as separate FOC options) and then use the remaining 65 points to upgrade weapons on the vet & CCS units. Outflanking AC Sentinels are a pain for most armies to deal with, as when they arrive, you have nice Str 7 side shots at side/rear armor. :)

Edit

Here's the sample list I started with all guard @ 500 points. Not the most optimized, but it gets the job done. It stood up well to tau, eldar & orks in the mini-escalation league we had a year or so ago.

HQ

CCS w/Lascannon team, 2 Snipers (80)

Troops

1st Platoon
-Command Squad w/2 GL (40)
-Squad Alpha w/GL & ML (70)
-Squad Bravo w/GL & ML (70)
-Hwy Weapon Squad-Mortars (60)

2nd Platoon
-Command Squad w/2 GL (40)
-Squad Alpha w/GL & ML (70)
-Squad Bravo w/GL & ML (70)

That's 61 boots on the field for 500 points. You have dedicated AT/MC with the CCS, and multipurpose AT/AP with the GL & ML's in the line troops.

This is definitely not an assault army, but it will put a lot of shots downrange @ 500 points, and will have stopping power against almost anything. You will notice a distinct lack of melta--and that's on purpose. At 500 points, you shouldn't need melta as much as you do in higher point games.

[Slug]

Yes, because guard are very bad at shooting, if you have 40 las guns against a squad of space marines, 20 hit, 6.6 wound, and 2.2 armor saves are failed, obviously your not going to roll .6 of a dice but it gives you a good idea of how allot of las guns equates to not very many wounds, always look at what sort of damage you will do to a unit of space marines with your army, for guard infantry its depressingly low but don't forget you then have an ap3 pie plate on the tank that eats through heavy inf.

However thats why you need more guardsmen, A, because the more las guns you have the more wounds inevitably you will deal, B, because you have more wounds to soak up damage, if you only have 20 vets, who aren't in chimeras against 20 marines about 9 will die a turn. So what I'm saying is you either have to mass so many bodies on the table they cant kill you fast enough, or you can go mech, but in that case you have to design your whole army around mech, i can explain that if you want though there are probably other guard players who have more experience running mech. And as I said, if you really want guardsmen in combat don't give them any upgrades, as the only thing that is going to get them through a fight is weight of numbers. Also, don't use command squads as suicide bombers, they just never get there, you can do what I do and run a valkerie with a unit of vets who have demo charges 2 meltas and a heavy flamer, but they only get to the other side because of transport.

It's really your choice but at the very least you need a second troop choice, either another platoon, a squad of vets, or penal legion. If you really want elite troops though guard are the wrong place, you should either be relying on large amounts of bodies, or their powerful mech. You really need to pick an infantry list or a mech list as two people have kindly posted and then put your own touch on it with upgrades, if you play wiht nice enough people they will probably let you proxy the occasional special weapon or such when you first play so you can get an idea of what works and what doesn't, just remember to ask first.

To answer your question in the other thread, if you have a leman russ which can deal with tanks I would go for autocannons as they can then deal with transports, or missile launchers as they are versatile. Also on vox casters, you don't need them to issue orders, they only let you re roll the test, can be useful as with ld 8 there is an alright chance you could fail and if its vital to get the order off you will be thanking the gods you bought them, but at the same time you could go through a whole game not using them.

EDIT:

Il throw in my current 500 point list for my Catachens.
HQ
company command squad 70
vox caster
regimental standard ( I've only got this because there was a particular conversion i wanted to do)
Troops
platoon 1
platoon command squad 35
vox caster
squad 1 60
vox caster
sniper
squad 2 60
vox caster
sniper
veterans 125
2 meltas
heavy flamers
demolitions
valkyrie 125
lascannon
heavy bolters
Fast
valkeire
475 total
the idea is mostly that the veterans catch a ride in the valkyrie over to the other side and do as much damage as they can along with the valkyrie.

[gubooboo]

WOW! thanx guys this helps me alot. Do any of u guys have tips against tau cuz that is my main opponents army

[scadugenga]

WOW! thanx guys this helps me alot. Do any of u guys have tips against tau cuz that is my main opponents army

The biggest threat you have from tau are the crisis suits who can jump out, shoot at you, and then jump back into cover.

The answer to that are mortar teams. They don't need LOS and with a 48" range, you can put the hurt on him.

[Slug]

Scadugenga is right about crisis suits, also if any stealth suits pop up just run two squads of inf at them at least preferably in one large mass, only way you will kill them is to get very close. Also large amounts of inf is very good against tau as you need the wounds to soak up the damage before you get in range, just don't be afraid to move up and bring your las guns in range, if you only use heavy weapons you will lose, autocannons are good because they will deal with everything including tau armor saves,and light vehicles. shoot any krut? before they assault you. also lemon russes are good as they can go blow for blow against hammerheads and come out on top, any heavy artillery is also good as you can deal with suits and anything hanging back, however if you do take vehicles watch out for suicide piranhas with meltas. Also don't bother with scout sentinels as they will die to tau inf. I played a lot of small games against tau with 4th ed, once you can counter everything the game will go very easy for you, and I've had 1000 point games where I've killed over half the tau force on turn 1, however if there are things you can't deal with such as stealth or crisis suits you can be beaten very easily as guard cant always field the best 500 point lists whilst tau are very strong at 500 points. So just look at what you can't kill with whatever list you go with and modify your list to include a counter to that unit.

[Nungunz]

As have been said, Crisis Suits are a big threat and probably your most common threat. These guys can pack a lot of plasma and missile pods which can threaten light vehicles. If they have flamers and the like equipped you'll have the advantage actually. They may roast a squad, but that leaves them very close to your lines and probably unable to jump into cover. Even guardsmen can tie Suits up in CC and possibly even win if you roll enough dice.

Broadsides are a headache to deal with. They will chew through vehicles for breakfast, but they are pricey. Problem is that you'll either need lascannons or a way to get meltaguns/plasma guns up close to bring them down.

Hammerheads are pretty darn annoying, especially with disruption pods. But you have enough autocannons and lascannons to torrent them down. You don't even really need to kill them.....all you need is a stun/shaken just to stop them from shooting at you is perfectly fine.

Kroot will be annoying as they are typically used to shield their suits and block off movement lanes. In this case, vehicles that can tank shock are nice to have to push through them or roast em with a flamer. I wouldn't spend too many resources on killing them though. Brining down the Broadsides and Crisis suits is what'll win you the game.

Firwarriors aren't a huge threat. They may have very long range guns with high strength, but they are expensive, can't aim that well, can't focus on either anti-tank or anti-infantry, and cover will still save you.....plus IG tend to have enough bodies that their shots don't matter a ton. IG heavy weapons will also rip through them.

[weeble1000]

I don't play much at 500 points, so you can take my suggestions with a grain of salt.

Going all infantry, I expect you'd want a variety of units to deal with different threats. You won't be seeing much heavy armor at 500 points, so las cannons are a waste of points. At 500 points, I don't think it's worth planning for a way to deal with an assault because it takes a lot of points for the guard to get half way there. So taking upgrades to boost the assault phase diverts points from the more important shooting phase.

In the list I put together below, I've put in a unit of plasmas, a unit of flamers, and a unit of meltas in order to deal with a multiplicity of threats. In case you see elite heavy infantry, you're going to want a way to deny 2+ armor saves. Meltas serve that function, but also have a dual role of causing instant death and being equipped to deal with walkers at short range. The meltas are unfortunately on the platoon command squad, so they will suffer from BS 3. I've put autocannons in the infantry squads because you're likely only going to be seeing light armor if there's any vehicles on the table. Autocannons are cheaper than missile launchers, hit more reliably, and are just fine at dealing with lightly armored tanks.

The list also has 30 points left over to do whatever with, like buy a reg standard, throw in a few grenade launchers or flamers, etc.

The list below suffers severely from lack of mobility, but the infantry squads don't need to be blobbed up and they could forgo autocannon shooting to hoof it across the table if needs be. Even so, the list is pretty static, but you'd be sacrificing a lot to get mobility in a 500 point guard list.

I think another way to go would be to swap an infantry platoon for melta vets (100 points) and 3 autocannon scout sentinels (120 points). That swaps 190 points out for 220 points, so it would eat up the spare points unless you took out a scout sentinel. Then you could put in some upgrades like a reg. standard or a commissar. This swap would make the list a little less one-dimensional on the table top and add in some mobility and deployment options. The meltas (while only 3) would also be in the hands of vets and with some ablative lasgun carrying wounds to keep them on the table longer. You'd also have 5 autocannons instead of 4 and would be able to have some additional freedom in selecting targets. However, the sentinels won't benefit from orders, although in three separate squadrons they'd give your opponent more to shoot at.

The alternate list also seems to be more thematic for a small scouting force.

HQ:

CCS (Plasma x4) 110

Troops:

Platoon Alpha
PCS (Flamer x4) 50
Infantry Squad A1 (Autocannon) 60
Infantry squad A2 (Autocannon) 60

Platoon Beta
PCS (Melta x4) 70
Infantry Squad B1 (Autocannon) 60
Infantry Squad B2 (Autocannon) 60

Total: 470 points

Alternate List

HQ:

CCS (Plasma x4) 110

Troops:

Platoon Alpha
PCS (Flamer x4) 50
Infantry Squad A1 (Autocannon) 60
Infantry squad A2 (Autocannon) 60

Veteran Squad (Melta x3) 100

Fast Attack:

Scout Sentinel (Autocannon) 40

Scout Sentinel (Autocannon) 40

Scout Sentinel (Autocannon) 40

Total: 495 points

[Slug]

weeble1000 the only problem is is that he said he is going to play against a lot of tau, so scout sentinels won't last a turn, also he will need some mortars so he can deal with crisis suits, because if you can't counter them when they get behind a good hill it becomes very hard to win. So really the flamers would be points much better spent on mortars, also a melta pcs is going to get savaged unless a tank comes to you, doing anything more than supporting your line, which can be invaluable, with command squads never makes sense to me as a 5 wound squad is far too easy to deal with and then you've just wasted 70 to 110 points and lost your orders.
As for the the vets, you need a way to get them where they are going, I run a vet squad with a hf and 2 meltas, but they catch a ride in a valkyrie, other wise they become siting ducks as they move across the board.

Honestly no offence but I don't really like your lists as the command squads are too kitted out and can easily be targeted, so I would drop the special weapons, having 2 good sized platoons is good but I would put the autocannons in a dedicated heavy weapons squad and have another with mortars, that way you don't have inf squads shooting only with the auto cannon and not using the las guns which is a bit of a waste, vets at this level are only worth it if you either need the points over taking another platoon or if you have a plan for them, a unit of melta vets will get too easily picked off if it tries to actually bring the meltas to bear. Even if they walk a unit of temies over your going to be dealing 2 wounds before being savaged, and then the termies that died just made back their points.

[Rissan4ever]

A few things:

1) That's still not enough Troop choices. An Infantry Platoon is a single Troops slot, and you need two, minimum.

2) Power Fists are a waste of points for Guard. It only increases them to S6, which isn't enough to inflict Instant Death upon anything that you really need to inflict Instant Death upon.

3) Good for you for taking Voxes! :) People rip on them, but I think they're awesome. They save you from crappy orders rolls, which can seriously screw you, and they're only 5 points each. I don't see the problem.

4) Meltaguns are pretty pointless at 500 points. You're not going to see much in the way of heavy armor at this point level. What you're more likely to see are transports with AV 11 or 12. Autocannons and Missile Launchers are better for popping transports, so take those instead, and put them in the Infantry Squads so they have more wounds to protect them. If the other guy takes a Land Raider or a Monolith, just avoid it the whole game; don't bother killing it.

[Nungunz]

3) Good for you for taking Voxes! :) People rip on them, but I think they're awesome. They save you from crappy orders rolls, which can seriously screw you, and they're only 5 points each. I don't see the problem.

Because they're not that awesome. Yes the are nice if you get them to work, but they are hardly needed to make an army work well. In larger gunline lists they work decent.

Besides,unless a squad has a heavy weapon, there aren't many orders that are worth forcing through. FRFSRF is okay for the lasguns....it means you might kill one more marine.

But Bring it Down or Fire on my Target? The grenade launchers and flamers aren't going to do much to a vehicle or MC and the GL and lasguns mean the enemy will most likely get their armor save over a cover save anyway. In gunline lists, these can be okay for 20-man combined squads with heavy weapons, but if you're spending 35 points on voxes for the minimum CCS and two platoons......well, I'd rather just take more guns.

That leaves, what? Move, Move, Move. It can be okay, but not fantastic.

Get back in the fight. This is actually decent, but if you are using this it means the guardsmen squad is probably below 50%, has already failed two leadership tests and fallen back twice so they will be far behind where you want them to be if not off of the table already and most likely won't have a lot to contribute to a fight.

Incoming. Well, a 2+ save is nice for a unit holding objectives, but using this order literally means that you lose two turns of shooting (models won't get to shoot in this turn and the won't get to act at all in the next turn).




4) Meltaguns are pretty pointless at 500 points. You're not going to see much in the way of heavy armor at this point level. What you're more likely to see are transports with AV 11 or 12. Autocannons and Missile Launchers are better for popping transports, so take those instead, and put them in the Infantry Squads so they have more wounds to protect them. If the other guy takes a Land Raider or a Monolith, just avoid it the whole game; don't bother killing it.

Hurting monstrous creatures and being able to instant death T4 models is fantastic. That being said you need a way to get them up close which is hard to do at 500 points.

[fade_74]

500 points....I think I would do something like this...

Primaris Psyker 70

Penal legion squad 80

Penal legion squad 80

5 man Ratling squad 50

5 man Rough Rider squad 55

Leman Russ Demolisher (no upgrades or sponsons) 165

500 points even. I think this list would be really fun. You would have some psychic powers and a force weapon. Monster killers (ratlings), Rough Riders to kill or soften up a big threat (like devestators, genestealers, heavy weapon squads, etc) and once the have charged you can use em to tie up another important unit if you kill the original target. The Demolisher....well....it just kills stuff. The 2 penal legion squads also add a fun unknown element.

This could also be the start of an all jailbird army lol. Paint em up with orange jumpsuits, the rough riders could even be prison rodeo guys hehe. Make your psycher (or a lord commisar) kinda like "The Warden". Make miniature guard towers for your ratling snipers! Fix up the demolisher with barbed wire and tank riders (painted like guards).