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View Full Version : Tyranid Harpy - Our Secret Weapon Against Grey Knights? (wall of text warning)



Kawauso
04-12-2011, 02:05 PM
This is going to be long-winded, but I promise I've got some points that are well-considered, and I'm genuinely looking for some good feedback, so bear with me, please. :)
Also, while the examples I raise are coming from my own experience with a 'nid build that is not what anyone would consider 'tournament-worthy', I believe the issues I'm raising are something that affect our beloved Tyranids as a whole with the advent of Grey Knights, so I like to think there's something here for everyone.

Well, everyone who loves hordes of gribbly bugs.

---

So I've been playing a handful of games with my 'nids lately, particularly against Grey Knights.

I've managed one skin-of-my-teeth victory and on two occasions been on the receiving end of some very, very sound ***-kickings.

Grey Knights are mean. Yes, they're a small, elite army, and yes they die like most other Marines, and yes each casualty they take really hurts them. However, they have a lot of very strong things working in their favour which, at first glance, deny Tyranids a lot of the advantages their army has in most other match-ups.

Now, I'm not a 'competitive' player in that I never go into tournaments or organized events. I also like running 'fluffy' lists. This doesn't mean that I take the game any less seriously, however. Playing is fun, but losing a close-fought game or winning is much more enjoyable than having your *** handed to you on a silver (get it? :P) platter.

My Tyranid army is entirely close-combat-centric. I loathe Tyranid guns. They're fleshy and phallic and I just don't like them, and they don't fit with my vision of hordes of chittering, bladed insects swarming over the front lines, devouring all in their path.

To this end, my Tyranid force has very little ranged capability - namely, Zoanthropes and Trygons. This hasn't really hurt me in the past, though. Yes, my little gribblies take a load of casualties at range while they're moving into position. But then guess what? They're -in- position, and they hit the enemy's gunlines like a sack of hammers. I typically have so many gaunts that my opponents can't kill enough of them at range before they overwhelm their troops. And they're supported by infiltrating or outflanking Genestealers, and burrowing Trygons, and a lurking Deathleaper or a lumbering Hive Tyrant or the Zoanthropes directing the mindless masses from the rear. Simply put: yes, I place myself at a disadvantage in not using 'nid 'guns', but the army has plenty to offer in terms of helping me shore up in other areas so that I can utterly break opponents with my assaults.

However, the new Grey Knights seem to be utterly immune to everything my precious 'nids have to offer. They are -deadly- within 24 inches. They are a small and elite army, but they can field a lot more bodies than they used to. And the sheer number of stormbolter and psycannon shots that you'll take inside of 24" is STAGGERING. And then there's close combat. They'll punk monsters with instant death, and purge hordes with cleansing flame. And even though 'gaunts and 'stealers shouldn't be counting on armour saves, when massed power weapons ensure you're making none of them in close combat as opposed to 1/6 or 5/6, it actually stacks up over a turn or two of slugging it out in a melee.

And let's not forget one very important thing: in combat, 'nids rely pretty heavily on the fact that many of their units are faster than other armies (with the exception of small, elite units). Halberds ensure that the Grey Knights are often hitting FASTER than 'nids, or at the very least at the same speed as units like Genestealers or adrenaline-overdosed 'gaunts.

Combine these things with the fact that Grey Knights can take servo skulls and cast warp quake to absolutely hamstring your forces' infiltrators and deep-striking units, and you can see why my army is hurting so bad. It takes forever to get close - even with my gaunts' bounding leap - and by the time I do, my army is reduced to nice, bite-sized chunks that the GK don't even sweat.

Yes, Shadow in the Warp helps. Immensely. It greatly reduces the risk of the GK psychic powers. But at the end of the day, they don't need their psychic powers to trounce 'nids - and you need to be within 12" of them to cast the Shadow over their units, anyhow. Well within their 'kill zone'.



Of course, tactics are one answer to the problem that is Grey Knights. Historically, my army's strategy has been to rush down my opponent's throat - shove enough 'gaunts down there that they choke on them. There's only so far they can pull back, and there are only so many shots they can dish out. Eventually - inevitably - the Tyranids will be upon them and erupting from behind or within their ranks, and there's nowhere to run.

This tactic doesn't work against Grey Knights. They can hold back and put out SO MUCH HURT within 24" that my army is shattered even before it reaches their lines. And, once again, they are deadlier in close combat than my beasties. Their most basic infantry can trump any one of my monsters and halberds allow them to attack -at least- at the same speed as my fastest units. Finally, their massed power weapon attacks against my hordes means they put out more hurt than I can dish out; each of their wounds is going through for sure, whereas I need to swamp them with far, far more wounds to get through their power/terminator armour - these wounds are numbers I simply can't meet due to the thinning my hordes take at range before making it into melee.

So I need to revise my strategy. I haven't had time to put theory to practice yet, but it seems like hanging back and drawing the Grey Knights out - to me - is going to be worthwhile. My massed gribblies need to hunker down and burrow in behind some cover, and the big beasties need to do the same or else wait out in reserve for a couple of turns. I need to draw the Grey Knights closer - within that 24" kill zone of theirs, to my own kill zone of around 18".

Still, I don't know that this will be enough. I can't thin their numbers before they reach my lines, and once they do, as I've stated before they're better in close combat than I am.

---

All of this has led to me pouring over the Tyranid codex lately, in search of some secret weapon I might be able to harness against the knights of Titan.
Hell, I'm hurting so bad that I'm even giving serious thought to this ugly 'nid dick-guns - they have to be worth it, though.

A lot of people are talking about Hive Guard. Mind you, everyone's been talking about Hive Guard since long before the Grey Knights got their much-needed update. I've never been a fan of these buggers.
Yes, their gun is good - good enough to make me weigh it up against how much I hate Tyranid firearms - but at the end of the day, they're not for me. Their primary weakness, in my eyes, is that they compete for space with my Zoanthropes.

Now, a lot of people will say that Hive Guard are better shooters than Zoanthropes, and this is more or less true. They pump out more shots more reliably. They can fire while hidden from LoS. However, here's what I view as being an argument against the Guard:
1- Their range is no greater than the Zoanthropes. Yes, they can bust tanks better between 18-24", but within 18" the Zoanthropes bust lighter armour almost as well and heavier armour far better than the Guard.
2- They are not synapse creatures. THIS IS THE BIG ONE. They need to be baby-sat to ensure they do exactly as you like. Yes, their leadership is decent, and yes, their instinctive behaviour will ensure they -most likely- do what you want them to do, but at the end of the day it's still not always ideal to have them outside of synapse range. Furthermore, by taking Hive Guard in place of Zoanthropes, I'd be losing out on more units with Shadow in the Warp - which is going to be ESSENTIAL in combating Grey Knights.

I legitimately think the Harpy might be the secret weapon I'm looking for - and it could help you, too (if GK are causing any of you other 'nid players out there a problem - which I have a hunch is something they might be doing).

Now, the Harpy receives more than its fair share of mockery, but hear me out.

One of the first - and most important - things that the Harpy has going for it is its ranged capability. This thing is a winged Trygon that excels at ranged anti-infantry combat - it's basically our version of a bomber.
Let's break the ranged capabilities of this beasty down:
1- As a winged monster, it's important to remember it moves like Jump Infantry. So that's 12" of movement each turn, which is not bad. It can hang out behind a large building or a Trygon if it needs to, and zip out in order to obtain LoS with a vulnerable unit when the opportunity presents itself.
2- As standard, the Harpy comes with a twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon. Importantly, this weapon fires outside the GK comfort zone of 24" at a range of 36". It fires a large blast template, so the poor BS of the Harpy is of little consequence. While the AP value (5) is nothing to write home about, it's got an impressive strength of 6. This means it will be wounding MEQs easily and can glance/pen rhinos and razorbacks fairly well - especially since it's twin-linked! To top it all off, it's pinning! GK aren't fearless any more, so this actually means something!
3- Alternatively, the Stranglethorn Cannon can be replaced with a twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon. However, I don't think this option is worth it - even if it didn't cost 10 points! While the range stays the same (36"), and the strength and AP improve (to 9 and 4, respectively!), the weapon only fires a small blast template. This means that the BS of 3 on the Harpy is going to hurt you a lot more. Additionally, while it seems like the HVC is a better option for popping transports than the SC, it takes -1 on the damage table, meaning your glancing hits are -3, and even if you penetrate you need a 6 to get a wrecked result.
4- In addition to the twin-linked cannon(s), the Harpy comes standard with a Stinger Salvo. This weapon is shorter-ranged (18"), so it will likely only come into play when you're moving your army into an assault. It has a respectable provile (an Assault 4 heavy bolter), but again falls victim to the poor BS of the Harpy. Hitting with only 2/4 of your shots means this weapon is probably not worth it, and should be upgraded to...
5- For free(!) the Harpy can replace its Stinger Salvo with Cluster Spines. These keep the same range and strength as the Salvo, but lose the AP value altogether (but against MEQs, who cares?). What it really benefits from is swapping Assault 4 in favour of Assault 1, Large Blast. This is great, because it again means that the Harpy's piss-poor shooting skills are of less concern, it can get more hits, and if taken with the TL-Stranglethorn Cannon, means within 18" the Harpy is pumping out TWO large blasts!
6- Finally, the Harpy has another trick up its sleeve. At even closer range, it can perform a 'bombing run' in the movement phase. Once per game, you can nominate any enemy unit the Harpy moved over in the movement phase as being on the receiving end of its Spore Mine Cysts. The Harpy drops D3 strength 4 AP 4 large blasts on that unit! Best of all, if the first template scatters horrible (so that the central hole is 6"+ off-target), you get D3 Spore Mines instead of your blast attacks, which seems like a pretty good consolation. This isn't a shooting attack, either, so the Harpy can drop its bombs and then unload its actual guns on a completely different target!

So what all of those points above mean is that, for its base 160 points, the Harpy can pump out as many as 5 large blast templates within 12" (it's an MC, remember, so it can move and fire all of its weapons), on up to two different targets. Maybe this monster deserves to be nicknamed the 'blast-master', or something along those lines. :P

Its ranged capabilities are all well and good, but ultimately not enough to tip this unit into 'secret weapon against the Grey Knights' territory. What is, then?

Well, it turns out the Harpy has a pretty damn good trick up its sleeve in the assault phase. Now, it's pretty awful at assaults itself - it has WS3, only 2 attacks base, and its strength is only 5, which is pretty weak for a monstrous creature. What the Harpy does have, though, is this:
"Sonic Screech: On any turn in which a Harpy charges into close combat, it counts as if it is equipped with assault grenades (oh hey, look, one of the rare units in our codex with those! still, the Harpy is so awful in CC it's almost not worth mentioning). In addition, any non-vehicle unit that is charged by a Harpy must half its initiative value (rounding up) for the remainder of that assault phase."
Think for a second about what this means. 'Gaunts, 'stealers...hell, even a TRYGON -without- adrenal glands can go BEFORE a unit with halberds if the Harpy joins in on the assault! Ensure this goes off within the Shadow in the Warp (say, by using a Trygon Prime) to shut down any psychic shenanigans and you're gold. The Trygon, for example, will get in 5-7 power-weapon wounds, and the Harpy itself might even get in 1 or 2, -before- the I6 (now I3) halberds in a unit get to strike.

Sonic Screech, I think, is an ability just begging to be used against the new Grey Knights.

Yes, Lash Whips are great, but at the end of the day, they're stuck on slow, non-fleet footslogging units, and they only affect models that are in base contact with the wielder(s). Sonic Screech affects a whole enemy unit, and tips pretty much any assault in the 'nids' favour. I think it works especially well with monsters, like the Trygon, who typically tie initiative with a unit at best. It also gives your opponent something else to hit in the combat - if they want to try taking out the weaker harpy, that's fewer attacks being dished out against the actual threat - Sonic Screech has already done its thing by the time the Harpy's arrived.

I'm not saying that the Harpy alone is going to be a complete game-changer, or a super 'death star' unit. But this is Tyranids we're talking about. This army is about synergy. The Harpy should never be working alone. It should be supporting your units - first by taking pot-shots at threats that are at range, and then later by diving into a key assault to turn the tide, or else withering infantry units with tons of blast templates before your assault-oriented units move in for the kill. I think the Harpy has, previously, been seriously under-evaluated in this regard.

Now, I know the Harpy isn't perfect (far from it!). It has to be very careful of things like Rifleman Dreads, which lots of GK players are going to be using. But you know what? Everything in our army has to be careful of those *******s. It's more vulnerable at range than its cousin the Trygon in that it's weaker in terms of toughness and its save, but it should be able to keep away from ranged firepower with LoS-blocking terrain and/or cover saves, and if it's close enough that small-arms fire is a threat to it, -your- army ought to be close enough to capitalize on this. Also, it's never going to win a combat - but don't go charging this thing into combat on its own. That's not what it's for. It's a support monster that adds a lot of mid-ranged punch to your army, coupled with good movement flexibility. On top of that, it confers an insane benefit to your close-combat units when it charges into combat with or to support them. And really, is your opponent going to see it coming?

Let's finish things off with a quick breakdown of everything that it seems the Harpy has going for it - which, I think, is considerably more than the internet-at-large has thought at first glance.
1- Speed: It's an MC with wings, so it can keep up with the rest of your army or hang back for an effective counter-attack. It can also chase down enemy skimmers if it has to (without relying on a good fleet run like a Trygon, which keeps skimmers pretty safe around 18").
2- Firepower: With its base weapons and a free upgrade, the Harpy can pump out one large blast at 36", two within 18" and (once per game; but will you need it more than that at this range?) up to 5 within 12" at up to two separate targets.
3- Support in Assault: Sonic Screech means a lot for an army that has as many valuable assault units as the Tyranids.
4- Surprise Factor: This is something you won't be able to use to your advantage for long, but it -will- be valuable while you can capitalize on it. How many of your opponents have ever faced a Harpy? If the answer is "never", then it's going to take them a while to properly assess its threat value. They're going to under- or over-estimate it. Use this to your advantage. A wrong-footed opponent is a lot easier to defeat.
5- FoC Slot: The Harpy is a single Fast Attack choice. It leaves your Heavy slots free for Trygons or a cooky Carnifex spearhead and your Elite slots free for Zoanthropes or Hive Guard or whatever else you need (like the Deathleaper, who is GREAT against GK in particular).

---

I know this has been a very wordy dissection of just one unit in the 'nid codex. But it's one that's often mocked and, I think, overlooked. Hopefully my analysis is enough to make you re-evaluate this guy, or at least kick-start an intellectual debate on the subject. I'd love to hear what anyone has to think if they've been able to stomach this verbose post. :)

One thing's for sure: when I have money, and if a suitable kit is released in the near-future, I'm going to be picking up some Harpies (or at least kit-bashing the hell out of some Trygons and...something...with wings).

MaltonNecromancer
04-12-2011, 03:10 PM
I like the theory; not sure if it'll work in practice, just due to the weight of fire the Harpy might well recieve on coming in. Like you say I'd definitely position it behind a Trygon for the unit synergy.

Also, this is the best Tyranid article I've seen in a while. Good work! :)

Border
04-12-2011, 04:14 PM
Don't forget that a Harpy can contest an objective(if it survives), a popular tactic I have been seeing is those pesky Interceptor squads/Dreadknights getting away to capture/contest an objective later in the game. Having a jump infantry able to swoop after a unit like that would be pretty nice.

mathhammer
04-12-2011, 04:41 PM
-before- the I6 (now I3) halberds in a unit get to strike.

The harpy affects base initiative not final initiative so your sentence should read:

-before- the I6 (now I4) halberds in a unit get to strike.

Xas
04-12-2011, 04:44 PM
the harpy is shurely a good tool as you described but to work in your favour and not be death weight you have to play several classes above your oponent.

guess what happens when any grey knight unit can draw unhindered LOS to it an happens to be within range (your guns shooting 36", their shooting 24" and moving 6" beforehand or even 12"/30" in case of teleporters) ?

it simply dies.
t5 w4 4+ isnt going to last against the firepower you have learned to respect if you make any mistake (or if your oponent is on the same skill level and knows what it can do!).


as the good gun is the one selling point I see it utilize while beeing save I'd have to ask you why you dont think about a carnifex (or three :P) with stranglethorns?

TSINI
04-12-2011, 04:55 PM
[QUOTE=Kawauso;131828]My Tyranid army is entirely close-combat-centric. I loathe Tyranid guns. They're fleshy and phallic and I just don't like them, and they don't fit with my vision of hordes of chittering, bladed insects swarming over the front lines, devouring all in their path.
QUOTE]

My Tyranid army is EXACTLY the same ethos. i detest nid guns, so if its not an electro static shock attack, or a flurry of swarming beasties, or a bile spewing orofice, its not in my army.

Scything talons all the way baby!

so this article is of much interest to me. cheers mate, hope you find some helpfull hints/tips

DarkLink
04-12-2011, 05:00 PM
Psyrifle Dread bait.

Mr.Pickelz
04-12-2011, 05:48 PM
Psyrifle Dread bait.

Agreed :D

Lemt
04-12-2011, 06:16 PM
A unit of GKs (2 Psycannons, storm bolters) walk in and fire. On average they deal 4 wounds to the Harpy, AKA half the time the Harpy will just roll over and die.

Kawauso
04-12-2011, 06:20 PM
the harpy is shurely a good tool as you described but to work in your favour and not be death weight you have to play several classes above your oponent.

guess what happens when any grey knight unit can draw unhindered LOS to it an happens to be within range (your guns shooting 36", their shooting 24" and moving 6" beforehand or even 12"/30" in case of teleporters) ?

it simply dies.
t5 w4 4+ isnt going to last against the firepower you have learned to respect if you make any mistake (or if your oponent is on the same skill level and knows what it can do!).


as the good gun is the one selling point I see it utilize while beeing save I'd have to ask you why you dont think about a carnifex (or three :P) with stranglethorns?

Of course you would have to be careful with positioning. Your table would require some piece of LOS-blocking terrain which you can use to your advantage.

And while "I can see you, so you can see me" is certainly true, being seen isn't the same as having no cover save. The firepower GK have outside of 24" (including after they move, so 30") is pretty limited. It would have to be coming from a Rifledread or Stormraven, most likely. Maybe a Land Raider The volume of shots they put out at range isn't so high that a cover save won't be beneficial.

Now, Interceptors do indeed provide another problem entirely. But if they use their 30" shunt to get into a good firing position, they run the risk of splitting from the main GK army and being picked apart by the bulk of your 'nids.

Remember, also, that if you're hanging back and trying to draw the GK out (which is something that I personally at least see 'nids having to do more often with GK), you can always keep big, nasty, fast units (like the aforementioned Harpy/Trygon combo) in reserve, to arrive when the GK are close enough that you can perhaps reach them.

As for the Carnifexes...well, I did mention how much I hate 'nid guns, didn't I? :P I really, really hate them. Using a Harpy is more guns than I'd like in my 'nid force, but at least it's not a pack of 'fexes running around with their muscle-tubes squirting stuff each turn.
Also, 3 'fexes in a brood with -just- Stranglethorn Cannons an no other upgrades cost 540 points. Harpies are 160 points per model.

Lastly, Carnifexes are, unfortunately, useless in combat against GKs. :(

Tynskel
04-12-2011, 06:21 PM
personally, I am a fan of bio-plasma plus 5 re-rolling to hit str 10 attacks at Initiative 4.

That and mawlocs swallowing grey knights.

Nom nom nom.

Lastly, flying rippers + lash whip tyrant and guard, with old adversary. Granted, though, if you don't kill em, the rippers are dead meat, but hey, who cares?

Kawauso
04-12-2011, 06:21 PM
The harpy affects base initiative not final initiative so your sentence should read:

-before- the I6 (now I4) halberds in a unit get to strike.

Damn, you're right. :(

Ah well, it's good to know there was a hole in my logic somewhere.

On the bright side, I5+ is not hard to come by for 'nids. :)

Kawauso
04-12-2011, 06:23 PM
Psyrifle Dread bait.

So is the rest of the Tyranid army, unfortunately. :P

Also, there's cover. Or keeping the Harpy in reserve.

Kawauso
04-12-2011, 06:27 PM
A unit of GKs (2 Psycannons, storm bolters) walk in and fire. On average they deal 4 wounds to the Harpy, AKA half the time the Harpy will just roll over and die.

Yes, but the same can be said of any MC in the Tyranid army.
Even a Trygon can be taken down in one round of shooting from 2 GK strike squads. A unit of Purifiers can take enough psycannons that they might kill it outright by themselves.

You need to take advantage of cover, or keep the Harpy in reserve, or ensure it stays behind a nice big piece of terrain once the GK can start moving to within 24" of your lines.

Kawauso
04-12-2011, 06:37 PM
personally, I am a fan of bio-plasma plus 5 re-rolling to hit str 10 attacks at Initiative 4.

That and mawlocs swallowing grey knights.

Nom nom nom.

Lastly, flying rippers + lash whip tyrant and guard, with old adversary. Granted, though, if you don't kill em, the rippers are dead meat, but hey, who cares?

I love Carnifexes, myself. Unfortunately, they're really slow and will probably take a lot of shots getting close to the GK. On top of that, I4 won't help if an I6 force weapon gets through.

Also, they're a point sink. I mean, I've been toying with the idea of a 'fex spearhead...and I really want to try it when I can get more 'fexes together, but I don't think Carnifexes are worth taking against GKs. They can deal with monsters too easily for the amount of points you sink into them to be worth it, I think.

I thought about Mawlocs, but then there's the same problems Trygons have - Warp Quake means your Mawloc can die before it even gets to nom on some shiny Marines. :( Or slowed down. Or placed by your opponent.

Again, I'm not sold on Lash Whips. If we're looking at a unit of, say Purifiers, you need to be able to get between 6-10 models (the ones with Halberds) into base contact with the whip-wielders, otherwise they're dishing out Force Weapon attacks at the dreaded 6 initiative. I'm not sure what you mean about the flying rippers, though - could you elaborate? :)

DarkLink
04-12-2011, 10:22 PM
So is the rest of the Tyranid army, unfortunately. :P

Also, there's cover. Or keeping the Harpy in reserve.

Well, most of the rest of the codex is better storm bolter, psycannon or force weapon bait. I'd probably mow down any harpies first turn, since they're one of the bigger ranged threats. I can deal with most other stuff in either CC or with storm bolters. Either way, I have fire superiority.

Notanoob
04-12-2011, 10:59 PM
Cover or no, the Harpy is dead against psyfleman dreads unless you can totally saturate the field with targets. Unfortunately none of those targets are cheap, and they generally aren't any good. Before cover, a Harpy will suffer 3 wounds in a single round of shooting form a single psyflman dreadnaught. That's brutal. And since they'll likely have 3? The Harpy is toast even with cover. What else is the dread going to shoot at on the first turn? Nothing else is threatening. Sure, Zoes and HGs are vulnerable to it too, but Harpies can do damage starting T1, Zoes and HGs have to wait, and they can wait. Same goes for Warriors.

I'd say that the Harpy is just to meh for me to consider. In an all commers I might take it in huge games to give me some more vehicle suppresion, but in normal games I wouldn't consider it.

Also take into account that the HVC sucks even more against GK vehicles, as they all have Fortitude and count as Ld10 for the test, so the idea of using Harpies to stun them isn't going to work either.

Kawauso
04-13-2011, 12:35 PM
Well, most of the rest of the codex is better storm bolter, psycannon or force weapon bait. I'd probably mow down any harpies first turn, since they're one of the bigger ranged threats. I can deal with most other stuff in either CC or with storm bolters. Either way, I have fire superiority.

Of course you have fire superiority; GK have fire superiority over 'nids. GK have fire superiority over a lot of armies, now.

Anyway, the rifleman dreads that GK can field are a threat to 'nids in general and you can expect them to be firing at anything they can draw LoS to from the start of the game. This is a problem. The Tyranid player will need to account for this with the Harpy's deployment (or by keeping it in reserve). I don't think the existence of the rifledreads counters the usefulness of the Harpy, however.

That being said, I don't have a perfect solution available for every possible scenario - I can't account for all the different situations that can arise. I'm just trying to highlight that, as far as I can tell, the Harpy doesn't look like the useless piece of **** a lot of people would have you believe, and actually has a good number of things going for it. How and/or whether it's possible to get the most out of this potential remains to be seen. I'd love to get my hands on some Harpies and give it a shot myself, though. :)

Tyranids don't have a good counter to those Dreadnoughts that I can see. Their best bet is getting into combat with them, which is difficult given their ranged threat capabilities and GK shenanigans preventing infiltration/deep striking.

Kawauso
04-13-2011, 12:41 PM
Cover or no, the Harpy is dead against psyfleman dreads unless you can totally saturate the field with targets. Unfortunately none of those targets are cheap, and they generally aren't any good. Before cover, a Harpy will suffer 3 wounds in a single round of shooting form a single psyflman dreadnaught. That's brutal. And since they'll likely have 3? The Harpy is toast even with cover. What else is the dread going to shoot at on the first turn? Nothing else is threatening. Sure, Zoes and HGs are vulnerable to it too, but Harpies can do damage starting T1, Zoes and HGs have to wait, and they can wait. Same goes for Warriors.

I'd say that the Harpy is just to meh for me to consider. In an all commers I might take it in huge games to give me some more vehicle suppresion, but in normal games I wouldn't consider it.

Also take into account that the HVC sucks even more against GK vehicles, as they all have Fortitude and count as Ld10 for the test, so the idea of using Harpies to stun them isn't going to work either.

Right. Either you have to have a number of choice targets available for the Dread (preferably all with cover saves), or keep the Harpy in reserve.

Yes, the Dread is brutal against the Harpy at range. We've been over this. But you know what else? It's brutal against the rest of the Tyranid army, period. It will need to be dealt one way or another any time you encounter one. The Harpy is vulnerable to it; I'll make no bones about that. Do I have a perfect solution for this? No. That Dread is a real thorn in 'nids' sides, as far as I'm concerned.

Assuming the GK player will have 3 of those Dreads is...a bit much. But then, like I said, I don't play competitively. From what I understand of how spam-tastic competitive play is, however, I don't feel like I'm missing out. :P

I can't speak for how Harpies would perform on the competitive scene. But there seems to be a lot of potential in that unit just waiting for someone to find a way to take advantage of it. That's all I'm saying. :)

You should note that I agree about the HVC with you. :P
I didn't recommend taking it. I especially would not recommend it against GK.

Xas
04-13-2011, 02:56 PM
Of course you would have to be careful with positioning. Your table would require some piece of LOS-blocking terrain which you can use to your advantage.

And while "I can see you, so you can see me" is certainly true, being seen isn't the same as having no cover save. The firepower GK have outside of 24" (including after they move, so 30") is pretty limited. It would have to be coming from a Rifledread or Stormraven, most likely. Maybe a Land Raider The volume of shots they put out at range isn't so high that a cover save won't be beneficial.

Now, Interceptors do indeed provide another problem entirely. But if they use their 30" shunt to get into a good firing position, they run the risk of splitting from the main GK army and being picked apart by the bulk of your 'nids.

Remember, also, that if you're hanging back and trying to draw the GK out (which is something that I personally at least see 'nids having to do more often with GK), you can always keep big, nasty, fast units (like the aforementioned Harpy/Trygon combo) in reserve, to arrive when the GK are close enough that you can perhaps reach them.

As for the Carnifexes...well, I did mention how much I hate 'nid guns, didn't I? :P I really, really hate them. Using a Harpy is more guns than I'd like in my 'nid force, but at least it's not a pack of 'fexes running around with their muscle-tubes squirting stuff each turn.
Also, 3 'fexes in a brood with -just- Stranglethorn Cannons an no other upgrades cost 540 points. Harpies are 160 points per model.

Lastly, Carnifexes are, unfortunately, useless in combat against GKs. :(


whats the difference between a harpy carrying a phalic nid-weapon and a carnifex?
its a small points difference and the harpy has it twin linked. the carnifex in return has a better save and toughness value.

comparing the price of 3 fexes to 1 harpy is like saying 3 landraiders cost more than a baneblade therefore the baneblade is better... (yeah its a pointless comparison as the two sets do totally differnt things :D ).


and even though I know what good positioning can do (my one teleport-nemesis knight took out 2/3 of a 1500pts IG army while the rest of my forces basically watched, hiding behind a landraider wrack in a killpoint game :D) I have to ask you: without nid guns what reason would a GK player have to get drawn out?

if your most range unit is a zoantrope there is no need for a GK player to move out so he can take all the comfort he wants into preparing a killzone and slowly move into a good position for the end-of-game-objective-"fun".

I personally like to have one hammer unit/formation in reserve and lure my oponent in but you need serious firepower to do that (an IG artillry list is amazing at doing that. and then do a backhanded punch with 2 hellhounds and 10 rough riders when he's finally made it trough the killin field :D)

GrenAcid
04-13-2011, 05:05 PM
Of course you have fire superiority; GK have fire superiority over 'nids.

O sh*t....LMAO.... tell it to 40 deep striking devilgaunts....120 shots w 4S...:rolleyes:

Harpys Sonic combo sounds fun...but its one use only...no one is so stupid to let it live and shoot/fight next time.

DarkLink
04-13-2011, 05:32 PM
Yeah, sure. Orks can get even more shots, but that doesn't mean that they can outshoot their opponents.

Hive Mind
04-16-2011, 02:22 AM
Long post warning.

So the guys in my gaming group really like the new Grey Knights and wanted to take them out for a spin, so to speak. I really hate the new miniatures and the Imperium in general but someone else already bagsied both Daemon and CSM so I elected to take my currently-favoured Tyranids in a Dark Crusade-esque campaign we've devised.

Anyway, I had my first battle against the Knights last night, a 1500pt affair. For various fluff reasons that I won't bore you with the army lists ended up like this;

Prime w/ pair of boneswords and scything talons
2 Zoanthropes
1 Zoanthrope
6 Warriors w/ pair of boneswords each and scything talons
6 Warriors w/ devourers and venom cannon
2x 25 Termagants
20 Termagants w/ spine-fists
30 Hormagaunts
5 Raveners w/ devourers
10 Gargoyles

vs.

Brother-Captain w/ force sword and storm bolter
7 Purifiers w/ force halberds
5 Paladins w/ force halberds
2 ten-strong Strike Squads w/ 2 incinerators
1 ten-strong Purgation squad w/ four incinerators

Mission was Seize Ground w/ four objectives and deployment was Dawn of War. Long story short, I ended up with three of the objectives to his one and almost completely wiped him off the map. He only had the Brother-Captain, half of one Strike squad and three members of the other Strike Squad left at the end of the battle.

Now granted I did get fantastically lucky quite a few times. The Paladins and Brother-Captain scattering right in front of my hormagaunts who then locked them in an assault for six player turns (killing four of the five Paladins in the process with a little help from PoW) springs immediately to mind and granted the list I was facing was not as strong as the Knights codex allows an army to be built but my first impression of the Knights was distinctly underwhelming. They're just another Marine army; swamp 'em with enough Gaunts and they die. The Purifiers terrified me going in and they quickly ate the spinegaunts whole but I charged them with the bonesword Warriors and attached Prime and they died in one assault phase. Shadow in the Warp was tremendously useful.

All that said, had the game not ended after turn five the Knights would probably have contested two of my objectives but they stood no chance of taking them in two turns w/ one being held by a bonesword wielding Prime and four bonesword Warriors vs. three regular Knights (who were still locked in an assault with some Termagants though there were only four left) and only the Brother-Captain anywhere near the other.

So while I'm aware that I got very lucky at times and the Knights list was under-powered compared to the lists I see bandied around here I'm still decidely unimpressed with the Imperium's 'elite of the elite'.

Of course, next time I face them the Stormravens and Land Raiders will have arrived on planet and I'll probably take a kicking.

EDIT - I was just looking over the army lists again from last night and my opponent made a big mistake on his list; he had 7 Purifiers w/ halberds costed at 336pts. They're actually 182pts.

DarkLink
04-16-2011, 10:04 AM
To be frank, the list he took isn't very good, and he didn't play it very well. He should have had some long ranged firepower to shoot you with, which he lacked utterly outside of storm bolters*. He had no vehicles, which are tremendously useful in general but in particular against hordes. And why did he think that deepstriking the Paladins was a good idea in this case? Only ever deepstrike when you have a good reason to, and in this case I can't see one.

*Seriously, why does everyone think Incinerators, and flamers in general, are so great against hordes? A smart player will be too spread out to really take advantage of them, and you really only get one, maybe two shots. Or you could take psycannons and get more, higher str shots over the course of the game. And more importantly, psycannons don't require you to be in assault range.

Hive Mind
04-16-2011, 12:27 PM
To be frank, the list he took isn't very good, and he didn't play it very well. He should have had some long ranged firepower to shoot you with, which he lacked utterly outside of storm bolters*. He had no vehicles, which are tremendously useful in general but in particular against hordes. And why did he think that deepstriking the Paladins was a good idea in this case? Only ever deepstrike when you have a good reason to, and in this case I can't see one.

*Seriously, why does everyone think Incinerators, and flamers in general, are so great against hordes? A smart player will be too spread out to really take advantage of them, and you really only get one, maybe two shots. Or you could take psycannons and get more, higher str shots over the course of the game. And more importantly, psycannons don't require you to be in assault range.

It was a campaign game and due to an earlier loss the storyline dictated that vehicles, dreadnoughts and dreadknights were unavailable to him. Similarly, the DSing Paladins was mandated by the storyline.

The list isn't as strong as it could have been that's for sure but then neither is the Nid one. I'm not blowing my own horn because I know I got massively lucky (or he was unlucky or both). Things could have been a lot different if his Paladins hadn't scattered and then utterly failed to wipe out the hormagaunts. Oh, and if he'd actually fielded a full army. That would probaby have made a difference. Due to his error with the Purifiers he only fielded ca. 1350pts.

As for template weapons, I guess the idea was to deny me cover saves.

Xas
04-16-2011, 01:15 PM
Sorry to say but that grey knight list is something I'd come up if I were asked to write the worst list possible with the codex.

Incinerators on strike squads is stupid, especially without any means of transportation (rhinos, summoning, deepstriking with homers on say a stormraven) as you pay horrendous points.the purgators are a bit less insane but still bad (they get flamers for cheap but they are still slow. so an OK unit IF you get them speed somehow).

It is even worse when you could have given the flamers it to the brother captain and saved 20 points just for swapping it from a regular GK.

then the brother captain... why? the only reason you will ever take him is for fluff. the chaplain-y guy is the one to take for direct squad support and combat power. inquisitors for cheap HQs, grandmasters for army wide support by grand strategy and librarians for localized support with tons of buffs.

purifiers are even bordering the ok/good value but lack the vital protection and speed of a transports.
paladins need psycannons or a stormraven.


just for a try change all the PAGK to use psycannons isntead of flamers and the flamers to the paladins. the insane price on regular PAGK for incinerators should mean you should even have points to upgrade to a grandmaster. the same list will suddenly be much more deadlier without changing much (so you can stay in line with whatever fluff). ohh and if you need to deepstrike get some skulls for the HQ so you dont scatter that much!

DarkLink
04-16-2011, 01:15 PM
Ok, I see. In that case I wouldn't use it as an example of how potent GKs are. If you're intentionally gimped in both how you play and what units you take, you don't get a good idea of how powerful the codex is.



Yeah, I used to use incinerators, and I slowly started moving away from them because the loss of the force weapon just wasn't worth the small amount of extra damage the incinerator could do. Eventually I pretty much gave up on them.

And now that Incinerators take up psycannon slots, and Incinerators are more expensive, I don't think I'll ever take more than maybe one specialty squad with Incinerators.

Hive Mind
04-16-2011, 05:04 PM
then the brother captain... why? the only reason you will ever take him is for fluff.

Asked and answered, lol


Ok, I see. In that case I wouldn't use it as an example of how potent GKs are.


That wasn't really my intention, though I was surprised by how easily Shadow in the Warp squashes their much vaunted psychic powers. He got Hammerhand to work once. That's it.

Just sharing an experience.

PaperclipBadger
03-05-2012, 03:43 PM
If no-one's said anything about this, it'd probably be quite easy to produce a harpy by bashing together the Trygon and the Winged Hive Tyrant kits.

ComradePenguin
03-05-2012, 10:11 PM
I hate to say it, but the harpy is likely to only get worse once its model is released. I'm willing to bet a hefty amount that the poor harpy will be on the same flying base that the storm raven and valkrye come on. This means you will never be getting any cover saves on your expensive and fragile gun beast. You are also very unlikely to keep the harpy within range of your slow moving venomthropes.

The sad thing is that the harpy had the potential to be a very cool unit in the tyranid codex, but ultimately fell short of its design (like many units in this book). As it stands, the harpy should sit at around 100 points or have its survivability increased by +1 T and +1sv.

trygonprime
03-05-2012, 11:48 PM
I hate to say it, but the harpy is likely to only get worse once its model is released. I'm willing to bet a hefty amount that the poor harpy will be on the same flying base that the storm raven and valkrye come on. This means you will never be getting any cover saves on your expensive and fragile gun beast. You are also very unlikely to keep the harpy within range of your slow moving venomthropes.

The sad thing is that the harpy had the potential to be a very cool unit in the tyranid codex, but ultimately fell short of its design (like many units in this book). As it stands, the harpy should sit at around 100 points or have its survivability increased by +1 T and +1sv.

The new hive tyrant works well for a Harpy. It will not be hard to get coversaves for t as well with the new bug or a venom.thrope

Charybdis
03-06-2012, 03:52 AM
I think the Harpy is an okay unit. It just suffers from being a little overpriced... and having horrendous survivability.

ComradePenguin
03-06-2012, 10:04 AM
The new hive tyrant works well for a Harpy. It will not be hard to get coversaves for t as well with the new bug or a venom.thrope

That is fine for now, but when the model is eventually released I am pretty sure it will be on the flying base. This assumption comes from it being the size of trygon, so it will have to be on the large oval base. If you do use the new hive tyrant model you will face a dilemma when the actual harpy is finally released because the size of the model. I don't think people will appreciate a model that is supposed to be the height of a stormraven only being as tall as a cranifex.

Anggul
03-06-2012, 01:42 PM
A Harpy will die as soon as a psycannon is so much as pointed at it.

01271
03-06-2012, 02:02 PM
I like this tactic and like the idea that tyranid players are still kicking around here, I could just imagine a mass of nids waiting in cover until the time is right to run right down and destroy all the knights they can find!
Timing seems very important in this tactic, making sure that there aren't any elements that aren't going to be hitting on the same turn as your main mass should be one of your biggest concerns (which you probably already knew). All this talk of gunning down the harpy before it reaches the enemy lines is just silly, hide it behind something big to block LOS or get cover saves and it'll be fine.