Grey Knights - the horrible background

[laechler]

Hello, I want to talk over the worst Codex ever. (But first of all I'm from Berlin, so sorry for my bad english :) )

I play wh 40k since 1998 - I love this game and one of the main reasons why I love this game is the background.

On friday I bought the new Grey Knight Codex and after I read it the first time I had to puke...
This Codex is a bad joke. OK, you can make some interesting armies with that, but the background is ... yeah, I can't find words for it. Compared to this the Chaos Space Marine Codex was brilliant.

The Chaos Codex was abused a long time because he ignored the old legions and a lot of people hate Gav Thorbe for this. But after this Grey Knight Codex I think he is rehabilitated.

The GK Codex destroys the whole flair of the GK. How can it be that the purest off all work with xeno apes, possessed and radical inquisitors? And what is with the weapons of the Jakaeros - little rings which can shoot different huge weapons - are you serious??? How should that look like when they shoot a mega blast out of a ring? And on top of this I can put 10 of them in a Land Raider. I really think about to build a green Land Raider with bananas and jumping apes on it. OK I know that Jakaeros exist a long time before but please don't put them in a Codex with the holy Grey Knights.

I really think the Adepta Sororitas will soon hunt Grey Knights...

Then the Background of the special characters. Castellan Crowe has a demon weapon - did he use this weapon when the GK killed all Relictors? And why he can't put this weapon in a stasis field?

And what is with the silly history of Kaldor Draigo? How can he breath, eat, drink or repair his weapon in the warp? There is no way to explain that. And did he swim in the warp to go through it? - it must look totally stupid... By the way what is with the demons - I can't believe that they can't kill him.

Then there is Valeria which can use the rune of the Eldar more usefull than an eldar farseer - cool, perhaps she can show the eldar some tricks.

And that's not all. For example why is a standard Space Wolve better in infight than the best of the best...

Matthew Ward wrote before the Blood Angel Codex and there he showed the first time that he is insane, with the Land Raider which can fly to the ground without twisting around and other stuff. The Blood Angels Codex was OK but the Grey Knight Codex has to much mistakes in the background. After the perfect Codex from the Dark Eldar I am really surprised that nobody has stopped him to doing that.

I wrote this morning with bigred and he said: "I think we are beginning to see the effects of some of the GW oldtimers being show the door early last year, as lots of that type of oversight has now left the organization."

...perhaps we see in the dark future Sororitas which rides on mutants... ;)

[wittdooley]

Really?

You cannot use a Jokaero without an Inquisitor hanging around. Radical inquisitors use all sorts of sordid things to achieve their purposes. They chose to put the Inquisition parts in the codex to fill it out some, as the GK are part of the Inquisition. It makes sense.

I'm pretty sure, as Crowe goes, they state in his fluff that they don't put it in a stasis field for fear that the sword will corrupt others around it, even in the statis field. I think the rules that accompany him are awesome because they are so unique and fluffy.

The Chaos guys are able to go into the warp and live. I'd say its not too far a stretch for Draigo to get sucked in and survive.

As for the Blood Angels. Come on now. Those Land Raiders that "fly to the ground" don't fly to the ground. They get dropped off by Thunderhawks. Perfectly reasonable. And how/why do you figure the Space Wolves are better in a fight than the standard GK? GK all Power Weapons almost certainly striking at Str 5, maybe more, with all sorts of varieties of upgrades.

Clearly the Jokareos indicate that all the old-school guys aren't getting forced out.

[fuzzbuket]

am i the only 'old timer' GK player who dosnt hate the new dex?

my only fault is that there was a novelty about using 3rd ed GK and paper dex BA :P
oh and yes dragio is silly!

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Then the Background of the special characters. Castellan Crowe has a demon weapon - did he use this weapon when the GK killed all Relictors? And why he can't put this weapon in a stasis field?

And what is with the silly history of Kaldor Draigo? How can he breath, eat, drink or repair his weapon in the warp? There is no way to explain that. And did he swim in the warp to go through it? - it must look totally stupid... By the way what is with the demons - I can't believe that they can't kill him.



You don't need Air in warp... It's the warp (yeah **** explanation, but go with it... It sort of caters for peoples "needs") But agreed with everything else... It sucks, it's NOTHING like the old fluff, the only addition I like are the Purifiers. Everything else I am mehh with. WE LOOSE STR 6 and taking away Invunerable Saves D: (why the feck did they take that out?).


Sorry I really really loved the old fluff :L

[fuzzbuket]

hey now GK have
1) deepstrike
2) termies as troops
3) falchions!

p.s. they should erretra nemisis swords to give +1 S cause +1IV is silly, VERY silly

[Xas]

I like the dex from start till end.

Haters gona hate, whiners gona whine and if you cannot appreciate the genius that went into crafting the picture the grey knights are then that is no more than you own taste (on which to argue would be useless beyond believe).


What I can agree on is that the inclusion of inquisitors is sorry but only because it means that its unlikely for a inquisition standalone book to appear anytime soon.


If you accept the book then much light and insight is given into the nature of the imperium and even the warp itself. The draigo part fits in very well with many other sources if you think deep on it.

[laechler]

at wittdooley: The old Demon Hunter Codex has the correct fluff - you can use radical inquisitors, but then you aren't allowed to use Grey Knights. Do you really think a Grey Knight would fight on the same site with possessed and xenos?

And the Chaos guys are in an area where real world and warp is at the same time - I think thats different. But perhaps you are correct and you need nothing in the warp to live - but I think the demons should be strong enough to kill near everybody in their world.

To the Blood Angels Land Raider. Make a test, take a handy and throw it a little bit, I think in 50% of cases the handy will spin around when it hit the ground. And when it worked why other Space Marines don't use this technique?

And to the compare - take a Grey Knight and a Space Wolve without a weapon an you have to guys with the same profile but one of them has counterstrike. I think it would be cooler when you can see that the Grey Knights are better by the profile or the abilities compared to the other SM.


I really don't want to say that the codex isn't balanced or that you can't build interesting armies with it. You still can build a Grey Knights army that feels like a Grey Knights army but you can also build an army thats far away from a GK army and how it should be.

And in the background of the Demon Hunters they were pure and holy knights and now when you read for example the story of "The Bloodtide Returns" they look like unholy sorcerer.

[MaltonNecromancer]

The GK Codex destroys the whole flair of the GK. How can it be that the purest off all work with xeno apes, possessed and radical inquisitors?

Ummm... Daemonhosts were in the last Codex, mate. So it's not a huge change. And the GK have always answered to the Inquisition first and foremost, and the Inquisiton is a big organisation. I imagine the GK might well not like the Radical Inquisitor's selection of "friends", but I doubt they'd get much of a say.


And what is with the weapons of the Jakaeros - little rings which can shoot different huge weapons - are you serious??? How should that look like when they shoot a mega blast out of a ring?

Because 40K is a truly realistic, "hard" sci-fi setting :rolleyes:

How is this any different to the nonsense of Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legions? Seriously, read this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SquareCubeLaw

As far as a small ring shooting out huge weapon damage, not with our current level of science, no. But I have a friend in a science lab in the UK who has evolved coloured bacteria that naturally form the French flag if left alone in a petri dish; seriously - science can do all sorts of weird stuff at small levels.

If that's the part of the background that makes suspending your disbelief impossible, maybe you shouldn't read Codex: Daemons (who have giant literally daemonic machines), or Codex: Dark Eldar (a race that can "quench suns" - whatever the hell that means). There's not a lot in 40K that's that strongly rooted in real life.

[Shipmonkey]

at wittdooley: The old Demon Hunter Codex has the correct fluff - you can use radical inquisitors, but then you aren't allowed to use Grey Knights. Do you really think a Grey Knight would fight on the same site with possessed and xenos?

Do the Grey Knights have a choice?


To the Blood Angels Land Raider. Make a test, take a handy and throw it a little bit, I think in 50% of cases the handy will spin around when it hit the ground.

You do know the U.S. and Russian armies have, or have had, the capacity to air drop tanks? If we can do it with our current tech, why shouldn't they be able to do it in the future?

[Denzark]

I like the fluff. I think it even fits the canon.

And if it doesn't and people are ratifying ancient canon as trumps, they must therefore agree all ancient canon including 'no female space marines', is trumps.

GK - do whatever it takes, be it exterminatus, or pasting the remains of slotted SOB all over their nice shiny armour.

[Lemt]

You do know the U.S. and Russian armies have, or have had, the capacity to air drop tanks? If we can do it with our current tech, why shouldn't they be able to do it in the future?

Hilarious, but true. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNRfCTSov5g)

[laechler]

You have a point - but still, it feels not right that Grey Knights, with the gene of the holy emperor, work with possessed and other heretic stuff. In the old Codex they weren't allowed to. And I think the emperor wouldn't like to see that this has changed ;)

The relictors were destroyed by the GK, because they used demon weapons - know the GK himself use a demon weapon and work together with inquisitors which use demon weapons. I know it's not a fair universe but I was thinking the Grey Knighst were the only pure good ones left. And now its gone... they are sorcerer... I'm so sad that I must cry. ;)

To the dropping tanks - yea, I know that but the Land Raider hasn't a parachute. They say they drop him from sky. And as I said before why other SM can't use it too?

[Denzark]

Thunderhawk Transport. Swoops in, drops LR, bogs off like that big thing in Terrahawks.

Job jobbed. Fluffy as well. No problems with it.

[DarkLink]

Grey knight codex is teh awzzoms!!!

[laechler]

I still have some arguments left.

Ok the Grey Knights work with radical inquisitors and use dark ceremonies to fullfill their work. And the other stuff work because they say it work - like the Hands of Ferrus Manus.

But what is with the other SM and the Adeptus Sororitas? I don't think they would like to hear what GK do. The Sororitas and for example SW would fight against the Grey Knights because they wouldn't accept sorcery. And that is a little bit insane.

And that is one big reason why I don't like the new fluff.

[wittdooley]

I still have some arguments left.

Ok the Grey Knights work with radical inquisitors and use dark ceremonies to fullfill their work. And the other stuff work because they say it work - like the Hands of Ferrus Manus.

But what is with the other SM and the Adeptus Sororitas? I don't think they would like to hear what GK do. The Sororitas and for example SW would fight against the Grey Knights because they wouldn't accept sorcery. And that is a little bit insane.

And that is one big reason why I don't like the new fluff.

But they aren't sorcerers any more than any Librarian is.

As for Crowe. His story explicitly states he doesn't draw on the powers of the daemon weapon. I think that's an important distinction.

Here's the quote from the book:

"...they were reluctant to cast the evil sword into the darkness of interstellar space, for they felt certain that a fresh bearer would be drawn to its evil. Similarly, to seal it away in a vault would simply be to invite corruption of the chamber's guardians...so it was given to the wardenship of the Purifiers...[and has] passed from incorruptible warrior to incorruptible warrior."

and

"though Crowe wields the Blade of Antwyr, he does not draw upon its powers, relying only on its physical properties and his own skill at arms."

As for the Radical Inquisitors:

"[radicals] believe the enemy can only be defeated by its own weapons."

They don't use dark ceremonies beyond Daemonhosts, and even then the fluff says that they are rare.

[elmir]

I'm an old demonhunter player, and I don't mind the new fluff too much. It's not like it's brilliantly well written, but I kind of like the direction in wich the GKs as a chapter is now going.

The GKs were always a bit too puritan before to my liking. Almost a bit too much of a nice guy. The new codex emphasises the whole "do whatever it takes to stop them" aproach. Like they say in the book, they have to perform one of the grimmest tasks in the Imperium and that often needs a grim aproach.

The sororitas might not be the biggest fan of their use of sorcery, but you seem to forget that the whole inquisition has NEVER been a unified force when it comes to their ways to combat the enemies of the Imperium. That's why you have the whole "puritan vs radical" feuds going on. If inquisitors can be found bickering amongst themselves about the best way to fight an enemy, surely something similar would be possible when you look at their chamber militants?

Despite a couple of stories, I didn't really get the feeling that GKs have all the sudden become radical in their fight against demons at all. They are certainly no longer puritan either, but rather something in between. And I kind of like that. :)

[Mr.Pickelz]

a Real Grey knight would kill a daemon-host outright for being a daemon, it would take something along the lines of a grandmaster to stop the execution of said host. That being said, the inquisitor's level of command must also be taken into consideration as well. if he is in the upper echelons of command, then yes the GK's would follow his orders. However if the fleet of GK's called carries someone of higher authority then the GK's would ignore most(if not all) the inquisitor's orders. in the old codex the Grey Knights were lead by a council of Grandmasters, which also had Inquisitor Lords present, to represent their interests in the dealings of the Grey Knights. Not to mention, a radical inquisitor wouldn't call in Grey Knights until the "**** has hit the fan" moment. Reason being, he would/could be seen as a rogue inquisitor whose sided with chaos and now must die.

Also a basic Grey Knight has gone from a psyker in terminator armor to a power armor SM equivalent who happens to be a psyker. In many ways GK's have been downgraded from their superior status and been changed with a balance in rules considered. The awesomeness of the book however also lies in that same issue. Now Gk's can actually do what they were designed to do.Take the fight to the enemy, and not just sit back and shoot stuff down. The rules changes that everyone (including me) whine about are simply to balance the forces out with the 5th ed. rule set. For the cool stuff they lost, they've gained oh-so-much in return. I for one will miss the old fluff but welcome the new rules that has accompanied the new codex.

[wolflold]

Who says Grey Knights are good or evil? In 40k is no black or white, just grey! If you read the Horus Heresy books, you'ill notice a lot of plots and twists! Since these you start to question everything! Grey Knights bath in the blood of sisters of battle, so there even more protected from chaos...right...*cough*grey area*cough*

The new GK codex is just more streamlined and better balanced! Yeah you lose your str6 but you got all power weapons...no...force weapon in return, for each unit! Can boost strenght to 5 and even to 6 (so its even a win not a loss!). You got more units, and you can all kinds of combinations. The only thing i miss is that you cant take allies anymore, an Inquisitor based Imperial Guard army is pretty cool!

And as for Crowe, they can't put the sword away they think it will corrupt everyone, Crowe can hold the sword in check.

Draigo, yeah he lives in the warp, but have you been there? If the Space Wolves 13th company can live there, a think a grand master can aswel! Maybe he fixes his gear just like them, from fallen renegade marines, or if he returns from the warp maybe in that short time he gets suplies, you'll never know!

[wkz]

Who says Grey Knights are good or evil? In 40k is no black or white, just grey! If you read the Horus Heresy books, you'ill notice a lot of plots and twists! Since these you start to question everything! Grey Knights bath in the blood of sisters of battle, so there even more protected from chaos...right...*cough*grey area*cough*My favorite answer to this: Killing Allies!! For Anti-daemon purposes!!
That has been the Gray Knight sled from day one, other than "Gray Knights, forever fighting daemons, and hardly anyone else!".

Hell, in this newest codex there has been hundreds of marines mindwiped from one incident, thousands dead from another incident to prevent a SINGLE daemon from escaping, millions dead from exterminatus, and BILLIONS dead from the "kindness" of the WolfLord...
...
And we're complaining about a few score of sisters?!? Be glad they actually served a PURPOSE (however crappy) instead of the majority of deaths in this book: "Lolz, I wants you dead because... you in wrong place, wrong time. Your luck suxzors!! LOLz"


The new GK codex is just more streamlined and better balanced! Yeah you lose your str6 but you got all power weapons...no...force weapon in return, for each unit! Can boost strenght to 5 and even to 6 (so its even a win not a loss!). You got more units, and you can all kinds of combinations. The only thing i miss is that you cant take allies anymore, an Inquisitor based Imperial Guard army is pretty cool!Truth.


And as for Crowe, they can't put the sword away they think it will corrupt everyone, Crowe can hold the sword in check.Its a bit silly if you think about it: yes, the guy is holding on to the sword... but wouldn't it be wiser if he stays locked up in the Halls of Purity forever, and never gets deployed?

Yet here he is in the middle of a battlefield... ... ... hmmm... Hey! All you fluff players out there!! Deploying Crowe is automatically UNfluffy!! :D


Draigo, yeah he lives in the warp, but have you been there? If the Space Wolves 13th company can live there, a think a grand master can aswel! Maybe he fixes his gear just like them, from fallen renegade marines, or if he returns from the warp maybe in that short time he gets suplies, you'll never know!The problem here is that we don't know what exactly happened to the 13th... which makes them cool. However, Draigo's journey is explained in full.

Its sorta like a magic trick: knowing how the trick is performed automatically makes it lose its entertainment value :(

[TheBitzBarn]

am i the only 'old timer' GK player who dosnt hate the new dex?

my only fault is that there was a novelty about using 3rd ed GK and paper dex BA :P
oh and yes dragio is silly!

Nope I love the new Fluff Makes them super pragmatic and I love that. I have been playing and collecting GK since I started and they were horrible metal Models. This is a GREAT CODEX Period

Love it :D

[Hive Mind]

The only thing that annoys me about the DSing Land Raiders is that all SM chapters have access to Thunderhawk Transporters and therefore all SM chapters should be able to DS Land Raiders.

[laechler]

Draigo, yeah he lives in the warp, but have you been there? If the Space Wolves 13th company can live there, a think a grand master can aswel! Maybe he fixes his gear just like them, from fallen renegade marines, or if he returns from the warp maybe in that short time he gets suplies, you'll never know!

Draigo isn't like the 13th and the CMS "only" in the eye of terror, in the mixture of warp and real world, where planets are and so on. Draigo - when I understand it correctly - is in the real warp where nothing is except of feelings, demons and gods. And this is the problem I see.

And to the people who say that Grey Knights aren't more sorcerer than librarians - I must say no, they are sorcerer like the sorcerer of the chaos, with only one but important difference that they are on the good side. On Page 7 of the Codex stay that they use forbidden sorcery, fight with forbidden artefacts and read forbidden books. For me this means they are sorcerer. And on top this, like wolflord said, they killed sister of battle to use their blood for a sorcery to protect themselves for a demon.

And this shows that they are even more sorcerer than the Thousand Sons were before Nikaea...

[phoenix01]

No one is making you play Grey Knights. If you don't like the fluff, there are other armies or games to play.

[Hive Mind]

And this shows that they are even more sorcerer than the Thousand Sons were before Nikaea...

The Imperium is massively hypocritical, especially when it comes to psykers. Branding them 'witches' or heretics' and undertaking purges while simultanously employing the useful ones is nothing new.

Also, the Knights are specifically selected and trained in the ways of 'sorcery' as you call it while a chapter like the Thousand Sons were seeking forbidden knowledge that no-one knew if they could handle. You can say it's a fine-line, I say it's just another example of a hypocritical, self-serving regime.

[Paul]

So I had a Lord Commissar finish Crowe off in an assault, who most likely took Crowe's sword as a trophy.

It would've been much harder to get if they'd, you know, thrown it into the Hadex anomaly or something.

[Lord Castellan]

The thing people realize is that there are no good guys in 40k. There is Order and Disorder, but all the way from the most stalwart defenders of the Imperium, to the raiders of Commoragh, to the tyrannical Tau Empire, to the Daemons of the Warp, everyone in 40k is downright evil.

[Paul]

The thing people realize is that there are no good guys in 40k. There is Order and Disorder, but all the way from the most stalwart defenders of the Imperium, to the raiders of Commoragh, to the tyrannical Tau Empire, to the Daemons of the Warp, everyone in 40k is downright evil.

Also another question: Is a halberd really long enough to give +2 initiative?

If that is the case, have the rest of all of humanity forgotten how to build halberds? Or is there a guard regiment out there with pike blocks that strike at I5?

[eldargal]

Most of the fluff is fine, only one piece I find particularly silly and that has already been debated to death. As for Draigo, the Warp is tricksy and, well, Chaotic so who knows?

[Paul]

I think I drank too much Mountain Dew.

Anyways, what happens when Draigo uses his Personal Teleporter on his Termy Armor in the Warp?

He pops back into realspace and has to walk to his destination, at which point he will return to the Warp? lol

[DarkLink]

No, then Driago goes into limbo. Well, technically the warp is already the unlimited subconscious of the human mind, so Driago just goes one level deeper than limbo. Which is why he's been stuck in the warp for so long.

[wittdooley]

Does anyone think that, before Draigo fights a Daemon Prince, he looks them in the eye and says, "I must break you?"

[bonedale]

old time GK player, and I like the book. A lot.

The old book was an abomination of previous fluff, and in many ways, so is this one. But I still like it.

[Brass Scorpion]

How can it be that the purest off all work with xeno apes, possessed and radical inquisitors? Didn't the first Daemonhunters Codex have possessed Daemonhosts and radical Inquisitors? Yes it did. And it's a fantasy game, model collectors and players are free to create their own stories. The ones provided are a common shared convenience among the hobby community, they are not a requirement.

[bonedale]

The relictors were destroyed by the GK, because they used demon weapons - know the GK himself use a demon weapon and work together with inquisitors which use demon weapons. I know it's not a fair universe but I was thinking the Grey Knighst were the only pure good ones left. And now its gone... they are sorcerer... I'm so sad that I must cry. ;)

What is sorcerer? Like magicians? Is it a bad thing?

GKs also oversee the possession and exorcist of the Exorcist chapter (clever name huh), and watch them in battle in case any fall. SO basically they oversee a chapter of radical space marines.

GKs are the most evil of space marine chapters and that's why I like them

[Shipmonkey]

The relictors were destroyed by the GK, because they used demon weapons - know the GK himself use a demon weapon and work together with inquisitors which use demon weapons.

Except the Relictors weren't destroyed for using daemon weapons. They were set up by an inquisitor who was attempting to stealing a daemonic artifact from another inquisitor. Imperial hippocracy in action.

T
o the dropping tanks - yea, I know that but the Land Raider hasn't a parachute. They say they drop him from sky. And as I said before why other SM can't use it too?

Since the Imperium doesn't use parachutes I'ld assume that the Landraiders are given dettachable repulsors just like the Elysiansuse. Or Landraiders are just tough enough to survive a small drop.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

Grey Knights...they are incorruptible and hunt daemons. Stands to reason that they would turn daemonic powers against their owners, like a shining mirror. It is an aggressive form of psychic defense to turn the powers of others against them, and they are a militant organisation. Remember, the GK would not use anything daemonic themselves, merely (in the case of Crowe) retain the artifact to nullify it. (I would LOVE to see a rule that if he is kiled in combat, the victor can seize the sword...).

I don't think the GK are that fussed what others think of them, seeing as almost all contact with the GK outside of Inquisition members results in the cull of Imperial Guard soldiers or the mind wiping of Marines. So I doubt Sororitas would be allowed to keep any memory of them, maybe they would even be culled themselves.

Draigo. Yeah, his fluff is clown shoes. It's a bit too GCSE English for me. But then I think Matt Ward is probably an 'A' Level English writer at best. Some of the fluff is cool, don't get me wrong, but overall I think maybe he shouldn't be writing any new Codex anytime soon. I could write a better one. I might, actually. I can certainly think of better ways to add some colour to an Inquisitor's warband. Where are the Untouchables???

I have to agree with our German friend, I think it is a shame that the purity of the Grey Knights seems to have been replaced with incorruptibilty - I can only imagine that the SOB Codex to come will fill that gap. It seems the Grey Knights share a similar ethos to the Space Wolves now - whatever it takes.

[Fellend]

Except the Relictors weren't destroyed for using daemon weapons. They were set up by an inquisitor who was attempting to stealing a daemonic artifact from another inquisitor. Imperial hippocracy in action.

T

Since the Imperium doesn't use parachutes I'ld assume that the Landraiders are given dettachable repulsors just like the Elysiansuse. Or Landraiders are just tough enough to survive a small drop.

Considering they are built to eat meltas, lascannons and orbital bombardments I think a drop is fine. And the occupants are all wearing power armour. Which as we've seen in the intro to Space Marine the game, allows you to jump and roll out of a crashing valkyrie.
It's probably as much fun as an SM can have without killing something.

And as to why only BA has it. The real reason is of course that it's so all chapters aren't the same. Like every other rule in the different SM books. Lets face it, there's no reason as to why any SM wouldn't be able to do what any other SM does. (well the red thirst and blood rage and simular genetic defects aside maybe)
They simple chose not to. Tradition, codex astartes, who knows? Maybe there's a line in there that says.
"You may not drop your land raiders from thunderhawk, land FAAAAAAAAAAAAR away, and walk to the battleground through terrain that is very cheap to animate!"
It would explain alot about Ultramarines...

[chromedog]

With regards to the 'deep striking land raiders' ...

Those who have seen (at least the battle sequence of ) "Attack of the clones" where the AT-TE (walkers) were dropped into position by LAAT transporters which then took off for less-warm climes - would probably agree that THAT is what was intended by the "DS" landraider rules - not merely kicking them out of the airlock of a low flying strike cruiser (much as that image does strike a merry chord with me - but I loathe the sparkly marines.).

Long time DH player. I like the codex. Sure, fluff for some characters is on the lame side, but ALL codices have this issue (except maybe Tau - Aun'va is just lame ). Whether it is Mar(ySue)neus Calgar, Me(fabio)phiston, Dante (dead, alive? Sparkly?), anything in the SpaceWolf wolf of wolfinesstime codex. i could go on, but I can't be arsed.

Take the fluff you like and discard what you do not. It's that simple. It is a game, not the complete and literal word of the FSM, carved into parmesan.
Though I use the fluff for my SM where it applies to which implants they get and what sequence, their background is not canon 40k - it reflects one of my other hobbies, and my friends who are part of that (some of whom are also gamers).
[I'm in the 501st. We dress up in Star Wars costumes and do charity work, hospital visits and so on. My SM are the 501st chapter, bear the colours of the 501st legion and have character names taken from the (other) SW fluff).

[Cyberscape7]

There is only one thing that really bugs me about the fluff. In fact this kind of gos with a lot of "good-guy" dex's(NOTE: there are no real good guys. These are just the ones that aren't COMPLETELY evil). There is a lot of despairing backround and foreshadowing for the GK saying things like, Chaos is goin to win in the end and that the imperium might be brought down to its knees. It doesn't seem right that the fluff isn't trying to make the GK (or any other "good-guys") seem like they have a chance of winning, whereas in the "bad-guy" dexes, its all, "Yeah, we're the best and its only a matter of time before we win"
Seems a bit biased to me, although I could be wrong...

[Crevab]

Part of the problem with fluff arguments are the people chiming in that are only going off faded memories or things they've heard.

In the Daemonhunters codex, fielding Grey Knights and Daemonhosts was mutually exclusive. They would not work with Radicals.

Now they are the Radicals. Surprise, you got Ward'd!

[Fellend]

It's like a drug..., you start off being in the same codex and eventually you are giving away daemon weapons for your next fix of SOB blood.

[dethangel]

the way i see it, the GK like all Smarines they are very elitist take orders from onlt the emperor and maybe his #2 man. i think they mostly take requests for aid in defence of the empire. the GK are part of the iquisition but they dont follow orders from inquisitors. if the =I= needs them, they must ask for help. they hold alot less power when it comes to any SM chapter.(problily more with the smurfs than any other). what do you think would happen if the=I= started pokin around with the wolves, Black templars, or better yet Dark angels. it would probly turn into civil war and so in there attempt to rout corruption they would bring about the end of the empire. though i would think to prevent, that those chapters would simply just kill the =I= and report an *accident*.:D

i have a GK army and i may build a inquisitor army but even though i can use GKs i personally won't.

[Cyberscape7]

Ok, I know that the fact that the GK killed some SoB is aggrevating cuz it makes them seem less pure. However the idea behind it, is that if it is going to result in a greater victory, the Grey Knights are willing to make ANY sacrifice. Tbh, if it meant they could close the eye of terror they would probably sacrifice the emeperor...hint hint

[Hive Mind]

You know if radicalism upsets you so much you can just build an army without daemonhosts, daemon weapons, alien tech. and the like...

[dethangel]

i feel that the GK were a shining symbol of honor, loyalty and goodness in a universe full of evil. the best of the best. the new fluff serously tarnishes that image. now it seemes that they are just more d-bags in powerarmor, with a distorted view of justice. this is the issue for a lot of people.

[Hive Mind]

The elite foot-soldiers of an oppressive, theocratic regime were a 'shining symbol of honor, loyalty and goodness'?

[DarkLink]

The elite soldiers that are the only things standing between mankind and it's own self-destructive infinite collective self-conscious?

[Hive Mind]

The elite soldiers that are the only things standing between mankind and it's own self-destructive infinite collective self-conscious?

Sure, if you toe the Imperial line. I look at the Space Marines and, at the risk of invoking Godwins Law, see a bunch of fascist enforcers. To others they are heroes.

That's kinda my point though, the angle you take to look at something changes what you see. All the new Knights codex has done is to shift the angle we look at the Knights from. It's less brown-nosing the glory boys and more dystopian.

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only ambiguity. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter et cetera, et cetera.

[Col_Festus]

I actually really liked the fluff for the most part in the book and it's really what drove me to pick the book up. In fact the only part that I don't really care for fluff wise is Draigo's background. I think that maybe one of the worst pieces of fluff I've ever had the displeasure of reading. You can tell Matt really cared about him and wanted to make him something special by shoehorning him the plot by having him fight (and defeat :rolleyes:) some of the toughest names in the galaxy. Personally I would just have said he suffered untold perils, torture, battles, and trials in the warp, then when he was sucked back into reality, he remained there. He was tested for purity, found worthy and reinstated. I would have found it totally badass that the head of the Grey Knights went the warp and returned to tell the tale.. not that he is a badass walking around in the realm of chaos :confused: Leave the warp to be ruled by the Chaos Gods.. don't shoehorn your own glory boy into it just to one up everyone. /end rant

With that being said... I really enjoyed some of the old school throw backs to 2nd edition and even some rogue trader fluff. Seeing as the whole story of the illuminati was dropped I felt that elements of it were picked up here and maybe even expanded upon. The fact that the gathers search for those who are pure of heart to receive a very part of the emperor himself really reminds me of that bit of fluff and I thought it was really cool to modernize the process and bring it back. Even going so far as to say that they recruit from the black ships was a nice touch. This was probably my favorite piece of fluff outside the creation of the Grey Knights with Malcador the Sigillite carrying the Emperors final wishes for the chapter to be created. It made me feel like the Grey Knights maybe the last glimpse that the Emperor had for humanity, yet he had no time to execute it properly.

I also love the fact that something evil is lurking in the heart of their Chapter Keep. So horrible and unspeakable that only the Grey Knights entire chapter can keep it in check. I'm curious if Ward is setting the stage for some tie ins with the necrons maybe? I know they wanted to expand upon the C`tan. It could be possible that one is sleeping on Titan. /shrug

The scroll containing the Emperors fail safe for humanity was neat as well. Stating that only a seal on the golden throne matched it and would unlock it. Very mysterious. It's things like this that really draw me into the back ground for the Knights.

Overall I think the book was very well done. Barring a few odd pieces of fluff (sisters of battle part, and Draigo) I rather like it. Ward moved up a step in my book.

[DarkLink]

I just like the fluff in the codex because the GK codex beat up all the other codices. Then kicked them while they were down. In the balls. With cleats.




Edit:
Here's an article on 3++ about the GK fluff that is far, far better written than any of the "ward sucks at writing fluff" stuff I've ever seen. http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/03/forumitis-waaaaaaaaaard.html

You think Driago is bad? Try reading a few of the things that Gav and Jervis wrote that he brings up here, and you might realize why Ward is writing the new codices instead of them.

[Farseer Uthiliesh]

And what is with the weapons of the Jakaeros - little rings which can shoot different huge weapons - are you serious??? How should that look like when they shoot a mega blast out of a ring?

Jokaero weapons have been around since Rogue Trader. I don't see what the issue is with an alien race that can make amazing weapons, if we accept that the Eldar make guns, etc out of psychoplastics.

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

They even had Digital Weapons in the old codex :L... They also described them as long lost alien tech (or something like that). So I think that is fluffy :L.

[eldargal]

He has a point, though ironically falling into the same trap with his Gav Thorpe and Jervis hating. The community needs its whipping boy, with Thorpe and Cavatore no longer writing rulebooks the dubious title has fallen onto Ward. He has written some silly fluff, in my opinion, but as have they all. Except Phil Kelly*. The only truly bad piece of fluff in 40k in my opinion is the narvhal nonsense** and even then you don't see me baying for Cruddaces blood.
There are certainly bits of of fluff written by Ward that I don't like, the destruction of Idharae, Calgar fisting an Avatar to death, some of the 'omg Ultramarine' stuff, etcetera but I'm intelligent enough to realise that this doesn't make them bad.


Edit:
Here's an article on 3++ about the GK fluff that is far, far better written than any of the "ward sucks at writing fluff" stuff I've ever seen. http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/03/forumitis-waaaaaaaaaard.html

You think Driago is bad? Try reading a few of the things that Gav and Jervis wrote that he brings up here, and you might realize why Ward is writing the new codices instead of them.

*The fluff in the Space Wolf codex is excellent, even though I've loathed SWs since 2nd ed, and the naming conventions were established long before he (or Ward) started writing.

**not only because it makes no sense, but because the slow, inexorable sublight advance of the Tyranids was much more sinister in my opinion.

[Unzuul the Lascivious]

I re-read the whole codex again last night. There are some ideas I'm not overly enamoured with. I still think the writing isn't as good as it could/should have been in terms of richness of imagery and feeling. But it isn't that bad. It's upset people for the 'purity' reason I think, but purity is subjective - the 40K universe is largely amoral, so Knights who see thmeselves as pure will sully themselves if they feel it is in the name of purity of purpose to do so.
I still don't like Draigo's fluff - mainly because it doesn't make much sense when you're fielding him on the battlefield and there's no sign of any warp rifts, i.e. you're fighting Tau or somesuch. I've never been a fan of characters that 'appear at times of great need' crapola, but I guess the Grey Knights are a Chapter that appear at times of great need, so ... I dunno. It's not THAT bad I guess. And Draigo HAS gotta live in my display cabinet with Daemons on the shelf below, so...

[wittdooley]

You better watch what you say about Draigo.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5041/5329642047_c8967ec405.jpg

[DarkLink]

My name is Kaldor Driago.

I am a Grey Knight. I slew the Daemon M’kar as a lowly Battle Brother. I carved the name of my slain Master into the heart of the Daemon-Primarch Mortarion. I held the pass in the Trebarin Valley for two days and again slew M’kar, this time as a Grand Master. I was taken into the warp for millennia and have retained my sanity. I reforged my shattered sword from the cleansed metal of the Bloodthirster Kar’voth’s axe, burned the plague-jungles of Nurgle’s realm, slew the six handmaidens of Slaanesh and shattered the walls of the Inevitable City ruled by M’kachen.

You may have heard of me.




(if you don't recognize the form of this quote, then you're missing out on one of the best fantasy novels (http://www.amazon.com/Name-Wind-Kingkiller-Chronicles-Day/dp/0756405890/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302796092&sr=8-1), like, ever)

[Lexington]

I wrote this morning with bigred and he said: "I think we are beginning to see the effects of some of the GW oldtimers being show the door early last year, as lots of that type of oversight has now left the organization."
Probably true in some sense, but I don't think it's the absence of Priestley and the old crew that's motivating the miserable state of the current background, necessarily. It's pretty clear to me that the company's higher-ups have mandated that the background to their IP is to be approached in a certain way, and it's one that doesn't leave a lot of room for decent material. Ward's just particularly artless in the way he implements this, to the point where one has to wonder if he acts out of malice.

Regardless, his every published work manages to top itself for utter worthlessness. Sad that it's taken the truly awful Grey Knights Codex to really get the fanbase up in arms about him, but it's nice to see how much froth and vitriol is being hurled at the man anymore. After all, it was a much smaller outcry that led to Jervis apparently being stripped of all influence within the Studio, and Jervis is actually talented.


Here's an article on 3++ about the GK fluff that is far, far better written than any of the "ward sucks at writing fluff" stuff I've ever seen.
If that inane mix of babble and horse piss is the best case that can be mustered for Ward, then the man's truly hopeless. :p

[Mr.Pickelz]

I love it darklink. :D:D

[eldargal]

Beyond the hysterical ranting he does have a point. Though I have to say I really hate that style of blog. Just say what you mean clearly and concisely and spare us the hyperbole and hysterics .:rolleyes:

[Lerra]

Cavatore isn't writing rules anymore? That's a shame. I like his game design philosophy.

[DarkLink]

Beyond the hysterical ranting he does have a point. Though I have to say I really hate that style of blog. Just say what you mean clearly and concisely and spare us the hyperbole and hysterics .:rolleyes:

Most of the time 3++ is very good at clear and concise, but yeah, a couple of their writers aren't great at that. I can't read their review of the Chaos Marine codex, because their review of every unit is pretty much "OMFGWTFBBQ no special rules I hate you Gav and Cavatore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

[eldargal]

Ooh, yes, sorry I was referring to that specific entry not 3++ as a whole.

[wittdooley]

Probably true in some sense, but I don't think it's the absence of Priestley and the old crew that's motivating the miserable state of the current background, necessarily. It's pretty clear to me that the company's higher-ups have mandated that the background to their IP is to be approached in a certain way, and it's one that doesn't leave a lot of room for decent material. Ward's just particularly artless in the way he implements this, to the point where one has to wonder if he acts out of malice.

Regardless, his every published work manages to top itself for utter worthlessness. Sad that it's taken the truly awful Grey Knights Codex to really get the fanbase up in arms about him, but it's nice to see how much froth and vitriol is being hurled at the man anymore. After all, it was a much smaller outcry that led to Jervis apparently being stripped of all influence within the Studio, and Jervis is actually talented.


What does this even mean? Miserable state of the current background? Doesn't leave a lot of room for decent material?

You're kidding, right?

The 40k IP has never been in better shape. The Black Library is flourishing with tons of quality stuff. The Imperial Armour books are awesome. It seems to me that much of the "up-in-arms-ness" is coming from greybeards that are too stuck in their, "Well, back in 2nd edition..." ways to see the light through the fog. Read some of those old 3E codecies. They're god awful. The fact of the matter is that people seem to be up-in-arms over three things:

1. Calgar curbstomping an Avatar after the Avatar nearly kills him. Calgar gets the jump on the Avatar and wounds it with a first blow, get his *** whooped for a bit, then stops the final blow with the Gauntlets of Ultramar and punches through him. People have a problem with that, but have no problem with a regular power fist being able to punch through a Land Raider. Whatever.

2. The Blood Angels & Necrons team-up vs the Tyranid swarm. Listen, both the Necrons and the Blood Angels are pragmatic. For them to survive agasint a Hive Fleet, they choose not to attack each other and attack the larger threat. Pragmatism at its finest. Further, the Blood Angels choose not to attack the Necrons following the battle. Again, pragmatism. Perhaps the Blood Angels were too depleted and would have surely lost. Is that really so hard to believe. It's not like they chest-bumped and had dinner later.

3. The Bloodtide Returns & Kaldor Draigo. I think these are both ridiciulous qualms. People really have their panties in a bunch over the Bloodtime and the killing of the SoB, and the subsequent use of their blood to help ward off the Daemons. Using their blood was like a vaccination. And they mixed it with their sacred oils. They didn't take a frakking bath in it. As for Draigo, is his fluff that bad? Dark Eldar LIVE in the warp. Chaos Marines LIVE in the warp. Draigo survives in the warp because he is the Supreme Grandmaster of the most badass daemon killing machines in the galaxy. I'll extend him a little credit for his marital prowess.

As for Jervis... what defines his talent? I'm not saying he isn't, but why is he more talented than the other designers and developers and writers? Matt Ward is a designer and developer. He isn't an author, and for that I think his fluff stands up pretty damn well. Would I love to see Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden pen the fluff for a codex while someone else designs the units. Hell yeah. But all the Matt Ward hate is ridiculous.

[wittdooley]

Cavatore isn't writing rules anymore? That's a shame. I like his game design philosophy.

BTW, Cavatore just wrote the Kings of War ruleset. It's 8 pages long and, SURPRISE, looks a lot like a simplified version of WHFB 7E.

[Lemt]

I just like the fluff in the codex because the GK codex beat up all the other codices. Then kicked them while they were down. In the balls. With cleats.




Edit:
Here's an article on 3++ about the GK fluff that is far, far better written than any of the "ward sucks at writing fluff" stuff I've ever seen. http://kirbysblog-ic.blogspot.com/2011/03/forumitis-waaaaaaaaaard.html

You think Driago is bad? Try reading a few of the things that Gav and Jervis wrote that he brings up here, and you might realize why Ward is writing the new codices instead of them.

Let me sum up that article.

"There's other, even MORE ****ty fluff, so the part of GK fluff that is ****ty isn't AS ****ty by comparison."

Dare I say, that's a VERY bad argument?

[Lexington]

Beyond the hysterical ranting he does have a point.
Well, he does make a point, but I don't think it's a particularly valid one. Playing summarization games isn't a good substitute for applying critical thought, and this isn't even a decent example of the form (http://www.filmcritic.com/features/2010/12/accurate-but-misleading-movie-descriptions-the-fantasy-titles/). The post really says less about 40K than it does about VT2's shallow understanding of narrative and language.

[fuzzbuket]

. The Black Library is flourishing with tons of quality stuff.

true + 1 point

the Necrons and the Blood Angels are pragmatic. For them to survive agasint a Hive Fleet, they choose not to attack each other and attack the larger threat. Pragmatism at its finest. Further, the Blood Angels choose not to attack the Necrons following the battle. Again, pragmatism. Perhaps the Blood Angels were too depleted and would have surely lost. Is that really so hard to believe. It's not like they chest-bumped and had dinner later.
the necrons dont give a shizzle and hide underground OR mephy eats all the nids in turn 1
either way - 1 point

As for Jervis... what defines his talent? I'm not saying he isn't, but why is he more talented than the other designers and developers and writers? Matt Ward is a designer and developer. He isn't an author, and for that I think his fluff stands up pretty damn well. Would I love to see Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden pen the fluff for a codex while someone else designs the units. Hell yeah. But all the Matt Ward hate is ridiculous

ahh remember the unwritter law of 4rth ed?

JERVIS= GOD
= - 1 point
ward isnt a author + 1 point
ward isnt a designer or a developer = - 1 point
ward writes carp fluff, an actual carp would have done better. - 1 point
abnett= god*cubed + 1 point
ward sucks baals = + 1 point

you have no points your ability to defend ward has failed.
.

sorry now the =][= anti war(d) division purge you

[Xabraxis]

What does this even mean? Miserable state of the current background? Doesn't leave a lot of room for decent material?

You're kidding, right?

The 40k IP has never been in better shape. The Black Library is flourishing with tons of quality stuff. The Imperial Armour books are awesome. It seems to me that much of the "up-in-arms-ness" is coming from greybeards that are too stuck in their, "Well, back in 2nd edition..." ways to see the light through the fog. Read some of those old 3E codecies. They're god awful. The fact of the matter is that people seem to be up-in-arms over three things:

1. Calgar curbstomping an Avatar after the Avatar nearly kills him. Calgar gets the jump on the Avatar and wounds it with a first blow, get his *** whooped for a bit, then stops the final blow with the Gauntlets of Ultramar and punches through him. People have a problem with that, but have no problem with a regular power fist being able to punch through a Land Raider. Whatever.

2. The Blood Angels & Necrons team-up vs the Tyranid swarm. Listen, both the Necrons and the Blood Angels are pragmatic. For them to survive agasint a Hive Fleet, they choose not to attack each other and attack the larger threat. Pragmatism at its finest. Further, the Blood Angels choose not to attack the Necrons following the battle. Again, pragmatism. Perhaps the Blood Angels were too depleted and would have surely lost. Is that really so hard to believe. It's not like they chest-bumped and had dinner later.

3. The Bloodtide Returns & Kaldor Draigo. I think these are both ridiciulous qualms. People really have their panties in a bunch over the Bloodtime and the killing of the SoB, and the subsequent use of their blood to help ward off the Daemons. Using their blood was like a vaccination. And they mixed it with their sacred oils. They didn't take a frakking bath in it. As for Draigo, is his fluff that bad? Dark Eldar LIVE in the warp. Chaos Marines LIVE in the warp. Draigo survives in the warp because he is the Supreme Grandmaster of the most badass daemon killing machines in the galaxy. I'll extend him a little credit for his marital prowess.

As for Jervis... what defines his talent? I'm not saying he isn't, but why is he more talented than the other designers and developers and writers? Matt Ward is a designer and developer. He isn't an author, and for that I think his fluff stands up pretty damn well. Would I love to see Dan Abnett or Aaron Dembski-Bowden pen the fluff for a codex while someone else designs the units. Hell yeah. But all the Matt Ward hate is ridiculous.

First, you are mistaken: What is written in Black Library and Imperial Armour is completely detached even in philosophy to what is written for the war game. Often times the War game fluff overwrites BL and IA.

Secondly, You're trying to rehash those 3 specific claims without any idea what you're talking about. Basically, you're walking into a firefight unarmed. There are plenty of people against your opinion that have stated their position in a more eloquette fashion, and with more compelling facts attached than "HE"S BADASS SO HE CAN!)!!!~~!~1one."
For starters you should probably read the BL books to see what they're talking about. IE see point one.

As for Jervis? The only thing I can think of off hand is that he put in ANOTHER space marine codex like a year? maybe after the previous one was released, and over simplified the wargear so that apparently(According to legend) his 10 year old son could understand it. That and lying(intentionally or not) to Chaos fans saying that Legion books are in the chute... Or atleast thats how it has come out as, 3 years later with no sign of such a product.

[doom-kitten]

Okay so My two cents, I wanted to post them in the Thread about the Blood Tide but it got closed, basically in my opinion what happened is no different than most of the retarded atrocities that the imperium commits on an almost day to day basis. I play SOB and I really don't care if Grey Knight slaughtered a bunch and used their blood as part of a ward against chaos. To me this says to things Battle Sister are considerably more holy then Grey Knights which would explain their inherent abilitly to perform miracles in battle (Faith Point). Also on the reverse side of the coin the Battle Sisters have wiped out entire Imperial Guard Regiments because a couple troopers came back with their minds alittle tainted, they've also detroyed entire planets because some sniveling inquisitor felt it was nessacary. So yes the back ground sucks with very little actully point to it other than to say " Hey look how badass these guys are." As for Draigo :rolleyes: we totally needed another marine that can somehow do what the primarchs and the EMPIRE himself could not, only in his case he stomp around the CHAOS WARP as if he was king of it, worst character bio ever in my opinion, good idea poorly executed I could understand him making sneak attacks but full out *****slapping them come thats lame. The dreadknight look stupid by the way irrelevant but I had to say it, looks like a marine strapped in a baby holder, anyways as for the Dark Eldar they don't exsist in the warp they live in the WEBWAY entirely different plane of exsistence. To wrap up wheren't the stupid ape techs wiped out by the Imperium? And why apes, dirty, stinking, feces tossing apes. And that Xenos Inquisitor chick she like straight up mock the Empire, I quote:

"You see lore and creed; I see only hollow missives, written by a WEAK man who seeks control over all that he does not understand".

Is she retarded or something, the guy she said this too was ORDO HERETICUS AND SHE'S SOMEHOW STILL ALIVE, good the cidex fluff of this game is getting to be such garbage and Dark Eldar was such gold, only to be followed by this crap.

[wittdooley]

First, you are mistaken: What is written in Black Library and Imperial Armour is completely detached even in philosophy to what is written for the war game. Often times the War game fluff overwrites BL and IA.


It's simply not true. There are Black Library books being written ABOUT characters introduced in Codecies. They work in conjunction with one another, and the wargame fluff simply does not override the BL fluff. If anything the GW SANCTIONED Black Library books serve to supplement the NON-PROFESSIONAL AUTHOR penned codex fluff.

Specific Examples:
Battle for Black Reach - Focuses on Telion from the Codex.
Rynn's World - Outlines the entire battle that is merely summarized in the codex.

You can't sever the ties between the game and the Black Library and Forge World fluff. They are sanctioned and approved by the same oversight body. They go together and supplement each other.



Secondly, You're trying to rehash those 3 specific claims without any idea what you're talking about. Basically, you're walking into a firefight unarmed. There are plenty of people against your opinion that have stated their position in a more eloquette fashion, and with more compelling facts attached than "HE"S BADASS SO HE CAN!)!!!~~!~1one."
For starters you should probably read the BL books to see what they're talking about. IE see point one.


So now do I have no idea what I'm talking about? I'm curious. If you want me to eloquently eludicate the cause to be less than concerned about 3 minor instances of questionable fluff writing throughout the span of his codecies, I can. Just because there are plenty of people that disagree doesn't mean I'm wrong, and my opinion is just as valid as their's, and that's without spewing my background and reasoning why my justifications could be even more qualified.

Compelling fact for Calgar:
-He's the Ultramarines Chapter Master and has been for decades.
-There are "twenty-eight volumes dedicated to Marneus Calgar alone in this sanctum, a tally twice that of any other living Ultramarine and surpassed only by Roboute Guilliman himself." One can assume, based on this, that he's been a badass for quite some time.
-An Avatar, rules wise, is only T6, with only 4 wounds. That's not that high. Calgar has 4 wounds himself. Further, the Avatar has a 3+ 4++ save. That's a Space Marine with a Storm Shield, except with a worse invuln save. Basing it simply on that, using the rules we have, and the fluff we have from the codecies, there's no reason he couldn't kill an Avatar by himself. Again, a power fist can punch a hole in a Land Raider. The Gauntlets of Ultramarr, presumably one of the best examples of a power fist, could punch through the Avatar.

Compelling facts for the Blood Angels / Necron alliance:-The book states that "both forces were too battleworn to ensure victory." Again, they didn't high five. They didn't have dinner. They "went their separate ways."
-People seem to have a problem with the notion that the Blood Angels would find killing the Necrons distasteful an unforgivable affront. Fine. But the Blood Angels consider themselves to be an eloquent and 'classy' Astartes chapter. It's just not proper form to kill someone that was your ally so quickly after the battle, particulalry when they aren't making an effort to kill you at the given time.

As for the Grey Knights issues. I'm not sure what more I could say other than what I already have.

Point is, I know plenty about the background of these issues and have read plenty of Black Library books. Matt Ward's writing isn't as egregious as people want to make it out to be. It's not. And if we're really going to argue about believability issues, let me remind you we're talking about stories written about a grimdark society populated by 7-foot tall superhumans, ravenous insectoids, and S&M Elves.

[Xabraxis]

It's simply not true. There are Black Library books being written ABOUT characters introduced in Codecies. They work in conjunction with one another, and the wargame fluff simply does not override the BL fluff. If anything the GW SANCTIONED Black Library books serve to supplement the NON-PROFESSIONAL AUTHOR penned codex fluff.

Specific Examples:
Battle for Black Reach - Focuses on Telion from the Codex.
Rynn's World - Outlines the entire battle that is merely summarized in the codex.

You can't sever the ties between the game and the Black Library and Forge World fluff. They are sanctioned and approved by the same oversight body. They go together and supplement each other.



So now do I have no idea what I'm talking about? I'm curious. If you want me to eloquently eludicate the cause to be less than concerned about 3 minor instances of questionable fluff writing throughout the span of his codecies, I can. Just because there are plenty of people that disagree doesn't mean I'm wrong, and my opinion is just as valid as their's, and that's without spewing my background and reasoning why my justifications could be even more qualified.

Compelling fact for Calgar:
-He's the Ultramarines Chapter Master and has been for decades.
-There are "twenty-eight volumes dedicated to Marneus Calgar alone in this sanctum, a tally twice that of any other living Ultramarine and surpassed only by Roboute Guilliman himself." One can assume, based on this, that he's been a badass for quite some time.
-An Avatar, rules wise, is only T6, with only 4 wounds. That's not that high. Calgar has 4 wounds himself. Further, the Avatar has a 3+ 4++ save. That's a Space Marine with a Storm Shield, except with a worse invuln save. Basing it simply on that, using the rules we have, and the fluff we have from the codecies, there's no reason he couldn't kill an Avatar by himself. Again, a power fist can punch a hole in a Land Raider. The Gauntlets of Ultramarr, presumably one of the best examples of a power fist, could punch through the Avatar.

Compelling facts for the Blood Angels / Necron alliance:-The book states that "both forces were too battleworn to ensure victory." Again, they didn't high five. They didn't have dinner. They "went their separate ways."
-People seem to have a problem with the notion that the Blood Angels would find killing the Necrons distasteful an unforgivable affront. Fine. But the Blood Angels consider themselves to be an eloquent and 'classy' Astartes chapter. It's just not proper form to kill someone that was your ally so quickly after the battle, particulalry when they aren't making an effort to kill you at the given time.

As for the Grey Knights issues. I'm not sure what more I could say other than what I already have.

Point is, I know plenty about the background of these issues and have read plenty of Black Library books. Matt Ward's writing isn't as egregious as people want to make it out to be. It's not. And if we're really going to argue about believability issues, let me remind you we're talking about stories written about a grimdark society populated by 7-foot tall superhumans, ravenous insectoids, and S&M Elves.

@BL: So when do tau get Khorne Berzerker firewarriors? It's in Firewarrior after all. A better argument to fit my criticism, being that my argument was that BL and IA rarely impacted the Wargame and that the Wargame impacted them more through overwrites and the like, would of been based around instances where BL affected the Wargame, not the other way around(They made Black Reach and the new space marine book so BL wrote about it!). For example, Actually Firewarrior was one of the rare cases that the BL influenced the Wargame. See Rail Rifles. I just bid a better job of countering my own argument than you do. It's rare and few and far between.

Than you respond to my second criticism by continuing to make the same mistakes. It's not my place to go through every post and list every bit of constructive criticism, and it's especially not worth the effort to do so as you will ignore them as you do now.

[DarkLink]

Let me sum up that article.

"There's other, even MORE ****ty fluff, so the part of GK fluff that is ****ty isn't AS ****ty by comparison."

Dare I say, that's a VERY bad argument?

And I don't really read much Black Library stuff for a reason;).

Either way, at least this guy has an argument. Ward haters, on the other hand, just try and shout "WARD SUCKS" as loudly as they can.

[wittdooley]

@BL: So when do tau get Khorne Berzerker firewarriors? It's in Firewarrior after all. A better argument to fit my criticism, being that my argument was that BL and IA rarely impacted the Wargame and that the Wargame impacted them more through overwrites and the like, would of been based around instances where BL affected the Wargame, not the other way around(They made Black Reach and the new space marine book so BL wrote about it!). For example, Actually Firewarrior was one of the rare cases that the BL influenced the Wargame. See Rail Rifles. I just bid a better job of countering my own argument than you do. It's rare and few and far between.

So your one example is from a book written nearly 10 years ago that was based on a video game? I thought we were talking the here and now, or did Matt Ward write for GW in 2002? Your argument was that what is written in the Codecies supercedes and is detached from what is written by the Black Library. You show it isn't true with your argument. They aren't detached from one another. I'll use the Battle for Armageddon as an example. In the Codex, there's one page about the Battle for Armageddon. There's an entire book written about it now. They supplement each other, with Helsreach going into far more detail about that particular battle. Again, not detached.

And if Imperial Armor has no impact on the regular 40k game, please explain the Valkyrie and the Trygon for me. Those are in new codecies, right?




Than you respond to my second criticism by continuing to make the same mistakes. It's not my place to go through every post and list every bit of constructive criticism, and it's especially not worth the effort to do so as you will ignore them as you do now.

First, it's then. Than is used as a comparative. Then is used for sequences. My wife teaches her 4th graders the difference. I don't usually point these things out, but because you want to attack my writing and ability to substantiate a point, I will.

Further, please expound upon the mistakes I'm again making. No, really. I'm interested. If you're going to offer the differing opinion, THEN (not than) it is your place to go and create a productive counter-argument, not simply say, "others have said it better."

I don't know how you can claim I'll ignore them, as I've addressed everything you've written to counter (and I use the word 'counter' loosely, as you provide one concrete example, and a poor one at that) my argument.

Your serve.

[Hive Mind]

I'll extend him a little credit for his marital prowess.


Bom-chicka-wa-wa...

:D

[wittdooley]

Doh. Nice catch. Though I do hear he handles his longsword quite well....

[DarkLink]

That's what she said;)

[scadugenga]

My name is Kaldor Driago.

I am a Grey Knight. I slew the Daemon M’kar as a lowly Battle Brother. I carved the name of my slain Master into the heart of the Daemon-Primarch Mortarion. I held the pass in the Trebarin Valley for two days and again slew M’kar, this time as a Grand Master. I was taken into the warp for millennia and have retained my sanity. I reforged my shattered sword from the cleansed metal of the Bloodthirster Kar’voth’s axe, burned the plague-jungles of Nurgle’s realm, slew the six handmaidens of Slaanesh and shattered the walls of the Inevitable City ruled by M’kachen.

You may have heard of me.




(if you don't recognize the form of this quote, then you're missing out on one of the best fantasy novels (http://www.amazon.com/Name-Wind-Kingkiller-Chronicles-Day/dp/0756405890/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302796092&sr=8-1), like, ever)

Is it really that good?

A coworker has been praising it to the wind...but I think this might be the first time he's read something that was created post early 1970's...

[DarkLink]

I loved it. It is extremely well written, and Kvothe's story is just really interesting.

The only real critisism I've hear of it is that a few people find Kvothe to be a bit of a Mary Sue. He is a bit of a super genius. I disagree, however, because he has quite a few character flaws. There are quite a few sitations that he gets himself into that he could have easily avoided were it not for his temper, for example. He's also a classic example of how someone can be so clever they forget to be smart.

But the science and magic is very interesting (imagine early 1900s, but the University teaches magic as well as more traditional sciences), theres a ton of mythology and a wide variety of cultures, and the characters and their relationships are very well done.

Plus, at the beginning of the novel the Chronicler (don't reacall what his actual name is) finds Kvothe, the great and legendary hero, tending an inn in some town in the middle of nowhere. So the whole time while Kvothe is telling this tale of his accomplishments, you are constantly wondering "what happened to turn him into such a shell of a man".


And really, the writing itself is outstanding. I was hooked by the quote that inspired the Driago quote above, and the quality of the writing in the rest of the book lives up to that promise.

[Orminah]

It must have taken some sort of tactical genius to write the amazing shades-o-grey filled codex that is Codex: Grey Knigh-..... CREEEEEDDDDD!!!!

[Lemt]

I loved it. It is extremely well written, and Kvothe's story is just really interesting.

The only real critisism I've hear of it is that a few people find Kvothe to be a bit of a Mary Sue. He is a bit of a super genius. I disagree, however, because he has quite a few character flaws. There are quite a few sitations that he gets himself into that he could have easily avoided were it not for his temper, for example. He's also a classic example of how someone can be so clever they forget to be smart.

But the science and magic is very interesting (imagine early 1900s, but the University teaches magic as well as more traditional sciences), theres a ton of mythology and a wide variety of cultures, and the characters and their relationships are very well done.

Plus, at the beginning of the novel the Chronicler (don't reacall what his actual name is) finds Kvothe, the great and legendary hero, tending an inn in some town in the middle of nowhere. So the whole time while Kvothe is telling this tale of his accomplishments, you are constantly wondering "what happened to turn him into such a shell of a man".


And really, the writing itself is outstanding. I was hooked by the quote that inspired the Driago quote above, and the quality of the writing in the rest of the book lives up to that promise.

**** I have that book sitting on the shelf. The first page just hurt my eyes too much. But I hear nothing but good reviews on it. Should I just skip to page 2 and read from there?

As for what hurt so much about the first page, well, I had heard TONS of praise about the writing. I open it up, and "triple silence". As you probably have guessed from my position on the whole GK issue, I get butthurt about writing quite easily. :rolleyes:

[DarkLink]

Possibly. It's a bit of a tradition for epic fantasy novels to start out a little slow, and it takes a few chapters to get to the beginning of Kvothe's story. Once you do, though, the book takes off and doesn't let go.


In fact, the very short sections that take place in the present are probably the weakest part of the book. Kvothe's story itself is the golden part.

[JonnyRoxtar]

I went into my local GW. I saw the Grey Knights were out and of course drooled over them. I bought myself a box of terminators and the rulebook, knowing I would need at least some terminators in my new marine army (what can I say I love terminators).

So Im on a 12 hour night shift I have nothing to do except watch movies and read books , so I get down to reading the GK codex from cover to cover. Its the first codex where I have, out loud, said gtfo repeatedly, and many no ways were said too.

I guess I can use the legs for my Angels Sanguine Termies. Might make a terminator librarian for my Salamanders I spose. There`s no way in hell I will be making a GK army though.

Particular low points were the sacrificing the SoBs and the guy in the warp.Which seem to contradict each other rendering both utter bollocks. Terminators with nades , 30 inch jump pack moves(they can but warp spiders cant? gtfo!) daemon hosts and space monkeys, gtfo! Daemon sword wielding sergeants? yeah right wtf? Theres more but its becoming a rant so I`ll count to 10 and stop now.

Not Impressed.

[Lemt]

I went into my local GW. I saw the Grey Knights were out and of course drooled over them. I bought myself a box of terminators and the rulebook, knowing I would need at least some terminators in my new marine army (what can I say I love terminators).

So Im on a 12 hour night shift I have nothing to do except watch movies and read books , so I get down to reading the GK codex from cover to cover. Its the first codex where I have, out loud, said gtfo repeatedly, and many no ways were said too.

I guess I can use the legs for my Angels Sanguine Termies. Might make a terminator librarian for my Salamanders I spose. There`s no way in hell I will be making a GK army though.

Particular low points were the sacrificing the SoBs and the guy in the warp.Which seem to contradict each other rendering both utter bollocks. Terminators with nades , 30 inch jump pack moves(they can but warp spiders cant? gtfo!) daemon hosts and space monkeys, gtfo! Daemon sword wielding sergeants? yeah right wtf? Theres more but its becoming a rant so I`ll count to 10 and stop now.

Not Impressed.

I don't like the fluff, but that's not going to stop me from making an army. I like the rules too much. ;)

[scadugenga]

I don't like the fluff, but that's not going to stop me from making an army. I like the rules too much. ;)

Exactly this.

I've been a GK fan since the early Lost & the Damned/Realms of Chaos days, and have nothing but much respect for the new sculpts.

The rules are okay, with a few notable ones that absolutely need clarification. The fluff is horrid.

So, discard the fluff, and enjoy the army.

At least, that's what I'll be doing. :)

[wittdooley]

Particular low points were the sacrificing the SoBs and the guy in the warp.Which seem to contradict each other rendering both utter bollocks.

So you have the same two problems every other person does. 2 pages and a paragraph in the 100 page book. Must be AWFUL.


Terminators with nades , 30 inch jump pack moves(they can but warp spiders cant? gtfo!) daemon hosts and space monkeys, gtfo! Daemon sword wielding sergeants? yeah right wtf? Theres more but its becoming a rant so I`ll count to 10 and stop now.

Not Impressed.

They get one 30-inch shunt per game. Yes!!!!

Daemonhosts were in the last Daemonhunters book, and are STILL in the Witch Hunters book. Further, they're used by Inquisitors in the fluff that exists. The Jokaero date back to the 2nd edition book, so people complaining that the "new" guys don't get it are ridiculous. If anything, that stick with the precedent already set and plays homage to that history.

Sergeants can't take Daemonblades. A single model in the entire book can, the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor. Totally, right?

Are you sure you read the book and aren't just about the same things all the other folks are, just to complain?

[scadugenga]

Daemonhosts were in the last Daemonhunters book, and are STILL in the Witch Hunters book. Further, they're used by Inquisitors in the fluff that exists. The Jokaero date back to the 2nd edition book, so people complaining that the "new" guys don't get it are ridiculous. If anything, that stick with the precedent already set and plays homage to that history.

Just a couple points of clarification:

Jokaero were in the original Rogue Trader 1st edition game. So they actually predate the GK's. :) (Which did not debut until the Lost & the Damned/Realms of Chaos books were released.)

The Daemonhunter's 3rd ed codex specifically prohibted inquisitors w/daemonhosts from being in the same force as Grey Knights. Not a huge deal, but it was a significant change in the new 'dex.

I'm actually a bit surprised this thread wasn't buttoned up quickly since it really isn't much off the track from the original thread Duke executed.

[Lerra]

Daemonhosts were in the last Daemonhunters book, and are STILL in the Witch Hunters book.

Actually Daemonhosts aren't in the WH book. They have Acroflagellants instead.

[HsojVvad]

Actually Daemonhosts aren't in the WH book. They have Acroflagellants instead.

Which the Grey Knights also have, but DH didn't have. So why do they have them when it's a SoB unit?

[DarkLink]

You mean when it's an Inquisitorial unit? And when it's in the only codex likely to retain any Inquisitorial stuff?

[Brotherjames]

9 pages and no-one going to ackowledge it....

I'm throwing it out there lol

Dante allowing the GK to mind wipe them after one of the greatest BA victories ever against an enemy they've been fighting since Sanguinius was around!

[Orminah]

Christ, you people are still debating this?

Someone gets off to flogging a dead horse.

[JonnyRoxtar]

So you have the same two problems every other person *****ing does. 2 pages and a paragraph in the 100 page book. Must be AWFUL.



They get one 30-inch shunt per game. Yes. GTFO!!!!

Daemonhosts were in the last Daemonhunters book, and are STILL in the Witch Hunters book. Further, they're used by Inquisitors in the fluff that exists. The Jokaero date back to the 2nd edition book, so people complaining that the "new" guys don't get it are ridiculous. If anything, that stick with the precedent already set and plays homage to that history.

Sergeants can't take Daemonblades. A single model in the entire book can, the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor. Totally WTF, right?

Are you sure you read the book and aren't just b itching about the same things all the other folks are, just to b itch?


errr you need to calm down mate.

I have a problem with some fluff and some rules . Im not getting upset or slagging anyone here off for liking them.

seriously take a chill pill.

[wittdooley]

errr you need to calm down mate.

I have a problem with some fluff and some rules . Im not getting upset or slagging anyone here off for liking them.

seriously take a chill pill.

Half this stuff you didn't like is wrong, though.

I think people are getting a bit too butt hurt over the TWO entries of the 100 pages that they don't like.

[JonnyRoxtar]

Those are just some of the bits that dont make any sense. I dislike all of it. Much like I dislike the Dark Angels. I dont like it so I wont play it. That doesnt mean its wrong , with Dark Angels the fluff is good, I just dont like them because of it. With the Grey Knights some of the fluff is ok and I dislike them because of it but some of it just doesnt make any sense.

I thought Dark Angels were callous when it came to keeping a secret ,but theyre amateurs when the GreyKnights past is scrutinised.

Killing planets near Armageddon to keep their identity a secret ? Heres a thought, why not use disguises? Save billions of lives? The Grey Knights killed more humans than chaos did.

I like different armies for a variety of reasons. The whole keeping a secret thing is not for me. It stinks of compromise and deceit. I like my armies up front and in your face.

Before, when I buy a codex I am instantly straining trying to start an army of whatever is in the book. Only this codex has left me absolutely cold and definite in the fact I wont be starting one, and Im a very easily swayed person ,I buy all kinds of **** cos I believe the salesman.

[wittdooley]

The Inquisition is the one that's destroying planets; the Grey Knights just happen to be part of that arm. I'm fairly certain only Inquisition ships carry the Exterminatus payload anyway. I mean, what disguises would you like the 8 foot tall super-humans to wear?

The only Marine chapter that really isn't callous when it comes to human lives are the Salamanders, who serve to protect. Sure, most don't want them to die, but they'd rather the humans than themselves.

I'm down with you not wanting to play em; certainly your prerogative. My biggest issue is the folks getting all up Matt Ward's *** because of a minority of issues in the book and then telling people that try and defend him that we're idiots.

Seriously. The two major points of contention are on two pages, and one paragraph. I personally have no problem with the killing of the SoB. They're expendable to the GK. As for Draigo's fluff.... it is what it is. He's a badass daemon fighter. He got sucked in the warp. It is what it is.

[Duke]

I believe we have had this conversation before, and the thread was closed. Thus, this thread suffers the same fate, next topic please... Stop beating a dead horse

Duke