Shield-breaker ammo question

[UltramarineFan]

In the GK codex the Vindicare assassin has access to different types of ammo, one of these is Shield-Breaker. Now the rule for it reads as this 'When a wound from this round is allocated to a model, that model loses any invunerable saves granted by items of wargear immediately and for the rest of the battle. Remainding saves (if any) can be then taken.'

Now, I'm not sure, but it seems to me that the model being shot doesn't have to take a wound to lose their invunerable save just have it allocated to them. Normally I would think this would be rules lawering but the fact that it follows it up by saying that the model in question can then take any saves they may have suggests that the model being shot has not yet taken any saves and that the wound has only been allocated to that model.
Basically, does the model being shot have to take a wound for shield-breaker to come into effect or only be allocated a wound?

(btw, whatever the answer, it's not really game breaking, you'll only be getting 7 of these shots every game at best)

[Hive Mind]

It says 'allocated' right there in the rules. The round doesn't do any actual damage to the model, just strips it of any invulnerable saves so strictly speaking there's no 'wound' for the model to take.

[JMichael]

But it does seem that you still have to allocate a wound which means you still need to roll-to wound.

[plawolf]

You need to hit and then roll high enough to 'wound' the model you are targeting to strip it of its Inv save. The shield breaker does not cause any wounds to the model when used this way.

The wording for remaining saves would refer to armor or cover saves. So for example, if you take out a wolf lord's storm shield with a shield breaker and then blasts him with bolters and plasma, the WL would get an armor save against the bolters, but no inv save against the plasma.

[Hive Mind]

But the shield-breaker has no strength value so what do you need to roll to cause a wound? The lowest S on the To Wound chart on p.19 of the Rulebook is S1.

Using RAI I'd say that using 'wound' is a mistake and it should instead read "When a hit from this round.."

[Hive Mind]

Forget what I just said, the Exitus Rifle is a Sniper weapon so you need to roll a 4+ to wound regardless of target toughness.

[plawolf]

Sniper rifles always wound on a 4+ regardless of target toughness (unless a special rule makes that lower).

[Hive Mind]

Ya, and since you roll to wound before taking saving throws the target wouldn't get an invulnerable save against the allocated wound or for the rest of the game.

[Wildcard]

We had an arque with the shieldbreaker this weekend, and the issue was that while rules clearly states that unit loses any invu saves that come from wargear, and while stormshields or iron haloes are clear enough, what about Terminator armors invu save?

IIRC, that invu save is granted by crux terminatus etc, a forcefield of sorts.
Yet my friend who plays chaos space marines, insisted that there are no such pieces on terminators (at his atleast)

so, whats your take on this? Is terminator armours invu save from wargear, or some "mystical protection" granted by faith / ruinous powers / skills that comes with the honours of using terminator armour?



'Remainding saves (if any) can be then taken.'

To me this seems like that the weapon has all the normal charachteristics it would normally have as well. i.ex if the model had cover save, it would still be able to take it, if the weapon managed to wound the target on 4+.. Armor saves are clearly out of the question, since its AP2 weapon iirc..

After this, the plasmagun - bolter example would come apparent.


@Hive Mind: And sniper, while rolling for armor penetration, has a strenght value of 3 :)

[MasterGideon]

Terminator armour falls under wargear...so no save.

MasterGideon

[Hive Mind]

We had an arque with the shieldbreaker this weekend, and the issue was that while rules clearly states that unit loses any invu saves that come from wargear, and while stormshields or iron haloes are clear enough, what about Terminator armors invu save?

IIRC, that invu save is granted by crux terminatus etc, a forcefield of sorts.
Yet my friend who plays chaos space marines, insisted that there are no such pieces on terminators (at his atleast)

so, whats your take on this? Is terminator armours invu save from wargear, or some "mystical protection" granted by faith / ruinous powers / skills that comes with the honours of using terminator armour?


Terminator armour is wargear.

A Chaos Lord or Sorcerer in power armour is trickier since there's no wargear that provides their 5+ invulnerable save, unless they have a Mark of Tzeentch. Which leads to an absurd result IMO.

I would say that if there's no wargear that provides an invulnerable save, like Daemons' save, then the Shield-Breaker RAW don't work. However, I suspect that a FAQ will say that all invulnerable saves are stripped.



To me this seems like that the weapon has all the normal charachteristics it would normally have as well. i.ex if the model had cover save, it would still be able to take it, if the weapon managed to wound the target on 4+.. Armor saves are clearly out of the question, since its AP2 weapon iirc..


True, but irrelevant IMO. The wound only has to be allocated and wounds are allocated before saves are taken.

[Kawauso]

We had an arque with the shieldbreaker this weekend, and the issue was that while rules clearly states that unit loses any invu saves that come from wargear, and while stormshields or iron haloes are clear enough, what about Terminator armors invu save?

IIRC, that invu save is granted by crux terminatus etc, a forcefield of sorts.
Yet my friend who plays chaos space marines, insisted that there are no such pieces on terminators (at his atleast)

so, whats your take on this? Is terminator armours invu save from wargear, or some "mystical protection" granted by faith / ruinous powers / skills that comes with the honours of using terminator armour?




I don't know, this seems pretty straightforward to me. Regardless of which -part- of the armour grants the save, the 5+ invul granted by terminator armour is, well, part of terminator armour.

Terminator armour is under the wargear section of each codex. It's a piece of wargear.

Shieldbreaker can remove the 5+ save it grants.

Shieldbreaker could not, on the other hand, remove the invul. save that a Zoanthrope or Daemon or even another assasin has because that save is something the model just has - as part of their profile or special rules -, and is not granted by a piece of wargear they have.

[Kawauso]

Terminator armour is wargear.

A Chaos Lord or Sorcerer in power armour is trickier since there's no wargear that provides their 5+ invulnerable save, unless they have a Mark of Tzeentch. Which leads to an absurd result IMO.



Hah. We posted within a minute of each other. :)

However, the Mark of Tzeentch is not a piece of wargear. It's not under the wargear section of the codex.

An -icon- of Tzeentch is a piece of wargear which -grants- the Mark of Tzeentch - but this makes sense, since the icon is an actual banner or standard of some sort (one could presume the Vindicair's shot smashes the icon to pieces, removing the daemonic boon it grants its bearers).

So a unit with the Mark of Tzeentch cannot have that mark removed via shieldbreaker, unless the mark is being granted by an icon.

[Hive Mind]

Hah. We posted within a minute of each other. :)

However, the Mark of Tzeentch is not a piece of wargear. It's not under the wargear section of the codex.

An -icon- of Tzeentch is a piece of wargear which -grants- the Mark of Tzeentch - but this makes sense, since the icon is an actual banner or standard of some sort (one could presume the Vindicair's shot smashes the icon to pieces, removing the daemonic boon it grants its bearers).

So a unit with the Mark of Tzeentch cannot have that mark removed via shieldbreaker, unless the mark is being granted by an icon.

Fair point.

[UltramarineFan]

Ok so I get that the wound only has to be allocated to the model but I'm confused with some people's further comments. Are some of you saying that the round doesn't cause a wound after it has stripped the model of it's invun.? Because I don't see where that argument is coming from. To me it goes like this --> roll to hit, roll to wound, model has wound allocated to it and loses his invun save, model may take cover save if it has one (AP1 so ignores armour save) and takes a wound if it fails that or doesn't have the cover.

[Hive Mind]

Are some of you saying that the round doesn't cause a wound after it has stripped the model of it's invun.?

I said that but I was wrong. I failed to account for the Sniper rule.

[Bean]

You are correct, Ultramarinefan. Roll to hit. Roll to wound. Allocate wound. Target loses invulnerable saves. Target takes a cover save if applicable. Target takes a wound.

[Wildcard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcard
To me this seems like that the weapon has all the normal charachteristics it would normally have as well. i.ex if the model had cover save, it would still be able to take it, if the weapon managed to wound the target on 4+.. Armor saves are clearly out of the question, since its AP2 weapon iirc..

True, but irrelevant IMO. The wound only has to be allocated and wounds are allocated before saves are taken.

Not so irrelevant in overall result of the shieldbreaker fired, although whether or not removing the invu saves itself it is indeed irrelevant..

unless iam wrong in the sequence in which rolls are made
1) roll to hit
2) roll to wound
3) take ONE of the following saves (where applicable): armor save, invu save, cover save
4) either remove as a casualty or say a prayer and get ready to shoot back! :)

Shieldbreaker shot removing invu saves, and being ap2 (no armor saves ever), this only leaves cover saves.. that is what i meant by this:
if the model had cover save, it would still be able to take it

[UltramarineFan]

Ok, thank you all, just wanted that clarified.

[Hive Mind]

Not so irrelevant in overall result of the shieldbreaker fired, although whether or not removing the invu saves itself it is indeed irrelevant..

unless iam wrong in the sequence in which rolls are made
1) roll to hit
2) roll to wound
3) take ONE of the following saves (where applicable): armor save, invu save, cover save
4) either remove as a casualty or say a prayer and get ready to shoot back! :)

Shieldbreaker shot removing invu saves, and being ap2 (no armor saves ever), this only leaves cover saves.. that is what i meant by this:

Ah, ok. It's AP1 by the way.

[DrLove42]

I would say that if there's no wargear that provides an invulnerable save, like Daemons' save, then the Shield-Breaker RAW don't work. However, I suspect that a FAQ will say that all invulnerable saves are stripped.



It won't be FAQ'd cos that correct

Remviong Wargear with the bullet fine. But how do you explain this magic bullet removing the Invuln save from Wyches in a DE list? How does the bullet remove the save they have cos they're so fast? Or you could shoot one of the FW greater demons (like the 999 point Tzeentch one) and remove their (only) save.

It has to be provided by wargear, and armour is a wargear. A demons natural save isn't

[Hive Mind]

It won't be FAQ'd cos that correct

Remviong Wargear with the bullet fine. But how do you explain this magic bullet removing the Invuln save from Wyches in a DE list? How does the bullet remove the save they have cos they're so fast? Or you could shoot one of the FW greater demons (like the 999 point Tzeentch one) and remove their (only) save.

It has to be provided by wargear, and armour is a wargear. A demons natural save isn't

Another fair point. Man, I'm taking a beating today.

[DrLove42]

New Question on the Vindicare (i don't want to start a new thread...again)

The Vindi can choose who it wants to allocate the wound to in a squad, so can pick out IC's and specific weapons

Now if it shoots at a squad who are partially in cover, and are joined by an IC. If the IC is completly concealed from the sniper (eg behind a solid wall) can the shot be allocated on him? I guess yes, but agina just making sure!

[Hive Mind]

New Question on the Vindicare (i don't want to start a new thread...again)

The Vindi can choose who it wants to allocate the wound to in a squad, so can pick out IC's and specific weapons

Now if it shoots at a squad who are partially in cover, and are joined by an IC. If the IC is completly concealed from the sniper (eg behind a solid wall) can the shot be allocated on him? I guess yes, but agina just making sure!

"...at least one model in the firing unit must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit."

p.16 of the Rulebook.

So, yes. It's one of those rules used to represent that real-life combat isn't turn-based.

[ArchonPhelps]

Additionally what if the model has two invu saves? The sniper can target the model but not pick the invu save. Case in point, DE Archon with Shadow Field (2++) and Ghostplate Armour (6++)?

[Hive Mind]

The rule says "...that model loses any invulnerable saves granted by items of wargear...".

My emphasis.

[ArchonPhelps]

Cool beans, I dont know. I have yet to read that codex yet. Thanks for the info

[Sonikgav]

Yeah its already been said.

Roll to hit
Roll to Wound
Allocate Wound and remove invulnerable
Apply Saves if there are any.

And yes its AP1, AND rending which is what makes Turbo Penetrator even more Silly. Speaking of which, the more pressing question ive heard is....

...Does the Armour Penetration for Turbo Penetrator (4d6) replace the normal 1d6 and still have the +3 for the Weapons Strength (Sniper Rule) or does it replace the entire equation (3+d6).

Personally i believe it replaces the Whole Equation. 4D6 with rending and AP1 Penetrates AV14 just about 90% of the time. Adding an extra +3 makes little difference either way though the rules lawyers where i play are trying to argue the case otherwise.

[Hive Mind]

Yeah its already been said.

Roll to hit
Roll to Wound
Allocate Wound and remove invulnerable
Apply Saves if there are any.

And yes its AP1, AND rending which is what makes Turbo Penetrator even more Silly. Speaking of which, the more pressing question ive heard is....

...Does the Armour Penetration for Turbo Penetrator (4d6) replace the normal 1d6 and still have the +3 for the Weapons Strength (Sniper Rule) or does it replace the entire equation (3+d6).

Personally i believe it replaces the Whole Equation. 4D6 with rending and AP1 Penetrates AV14 just about 90% of the time. Adding an extra +3 makes little difference either way though the rules lawyers where i play are trying to argue the case otherwise.


Taking into account the language in the Melta rule I'm led to believe that the Armour Penetration is just 4D6+Rending.

[Wildcard]

I dont see it stated anywhere that it would negate the 'sniper' effect part of the armor penetration equation.. Whitch contain both str 3 and rending...

It states "A turbo-penetrator shot has an armour penetration of 4d6". It doesn't say anywhere here that it is rending aswell, so the rending comes from the "sniper" rule.. And if you take rending from it, why would the "+3str" be left out?

[Sonikgav]

I dont see it stated anywhere that it would negate the 'sniper' effect part of the armor penetration equation.. Whitch contain both str 3 and rending...

It states "A turbo-penetrator shot has an armour penetration of 4d6". It doesn't say anywhere here that it is rending aswell, so the rending comes from the "sniper" rule.. And if you take rending from it, why would the "+3str" be left out?

Hence the arguments.

Personally i dont think it has anything to do with negating the Sniper rule, just that the Sniper Rule equates to 'Armour Penetration = 3+d6'. What happens when you use Turbo Penetrator is that this Equation is replaced. Remember the Sniper weapon doesnt have a strength apart from for the Armour Penetration equation.

[L192837465]

What if a model has two different items granting invul saves? Terminators with Storm Sheilds for example.

Does the targeted player get to pick which item EX: with weapon destroyed results, or does the sniper player?

[Sonikgav]

What if a model has two different items granting invul saves? Terminators with Storm Sheilds for example.

Does the targeted player get to pick which item EX: with weapon destroyed results, or does the sniper player?

Dude this has been answered at least twice in this thread and again in another.

The Shield Breaker removes all Invulnerable saves granted by Wargear. You have a save from both a Shield and Termie Armour? Unlucky, now you dont have either!

[isotope99]

My personal reading of the exitus weaponry is that it should be any and all invulnerable saves coming from wargear (so storm shield and terminator inv.) and still inflicts a wound.

Also that the turbo penetrator armour penetration is just a straight 4D6, no + strength 3 and no plus D3 for any 6's rolled from rending (so 4-24 with average of 14, as opposed to 7-39 with an average of 18.3333).

[DarkLink]

You lose any invulnerable saves granted by wargear. That means "any". If you have an invulnerable save granted by wargear, now you don't. No Iron Halos, no Terminator armor, no Storm Sheilds, etc, you lose all of them.

[Sonikgav]

My personal reading of the exitus weaponry is that it should be any and all invulnerable saves coming from wargear (so storm shield and terminator inv.) and still inflicts a wound.

Also that the turbo penetrator armour penetration is just a straight 4D6, no + strength 3 and no plus D3 for any 6's rolled from rending (so 4-24 with average of 14, as opposed to 7-39 with an average of 18.3333).

Why would it remove rending? It doesnt negate the sniper rules in any way, it just modifies it and changes what is rolled for Armour Pen.

[WereWolf_nr]

IMHO it means that the as long as the to-wound roll was passed, the inv. save is lost; even if some other save is successful.

[wkz]

Why would it remove rending? It doesnt negate the sniper rules in any way, it just modifies it and changes what is rolled for Armour Pen.
This.

It replaces the normal armor pen. into 4d6, but a sniper rifle is still a sniper rifle. So rending still applies

[Paul]

This.

It replaces the normal armor pen. into 4d6, but a sniper rifle is still a sniper rifle. So rending still applies

Because the Armor Penetration Value is changed to 4d6?

Look at it this way:

How To Determine Regular Exitus Round "Armor Penetration Value":
3 + 1d6 (if 6, then + 1d3)

How To Determine Turbo Penetrator Round "Armor Penetration Value":
4d6

It's a change in how the Armor Penetration Score is determined. It is determined with 4d6 and not with 3 + 4d6 + d3 or with 4d6+d3.

[wkz]

Because the Armor Penetration Value is changed to 4d6?

Look at it this way:

How To Determine Regular Exitus Round "Armor Penetration Value":
3 + 1d6 (if 6, then + 1d3)

How To Determine Turbo Penetrator Round "Armor Penetration Value":
4d6

It's a change in how the Armor Penetration Score is determined. It is determined with 4d6 and not with 3 + 4d6 + d3 or with 4d6+d3.

The thing is: where is that D3 coming from? Where, in the first place does the str3 come from? Does rending even come into the picture afterwards?

To do this we need to consider what is Armor Penetration itself: pg 60, BRB:
"... <after hitting>... , roll a D6 and add the weapon's strength to it, comparing this total with the Armor value of the appropriate facing..."

And, Sniper, pg 31, BRB:
"Against vehicles, sniper weapons count as Strength 3, which, combined with the rending rule ..."

And rending... (same page, BRB)
"... Against vehicles, an armor penetration roll of 6 allows a further D3 to be rolled..."

This is the BRB rules. Now we look at Turbo Penetrator:
"... has an Armor Penetration of 4D6."

Now, note 2 things:
- the main Armor Penetration roll is a roll of Strength+D6. That's what is being mentioned inside that segment of the rules.
- the rending rule exists OUTSIDE of the Armor Penetration roll, although it does affect that roll.

So, if something says something has an "Armor Penetration of XdX"... what exactly does it mean? Well, IMO (I've said it earlier): you're replacing Armor Penetration of Str+D6 with XdX (or 4D6 in this case). Rending is outside the "replacing Armor Penetration value" however, and thus is not replaced, and can affect that 4D6 further...

(PS: I seem to remember a GW FAQ regarding Rending and multi-dice Armor Penetration: roll an extra D3 for EACH roll of 6 that came up... can someone find that FAQ ruling and see if it is still relevant?
...
Then again, 6+6+1+1+D3=more than 14... and that is only with ONE D3. I doubt we're going to ever need MORE D3s at this rate...)

[Paul]

The thing is: where is that D3 coming from? Where, in the first place does the str3 come from? Does rending even come into the picture afterwards?

To do this we need to consider what is Armor Penetration itself: pg 60, BRB:
"... <after hitting>... , roll a D6 and add the weapon's strength to it, comparing this total with the Armor value of the appropriate facing..."

And, Sniper, pg 31, BRB:
"Against vehicles, sniper weapons count as Strength 3, which, combined with the rending rule ..."

And rending... (same page, BRB)
"... Against vehicles, an armor penetration roll of 6 allows a further D4 to be rolled..."

This is the usual Armor Penetration roll. Now we look at turbo penetrator:
"... has an Armor Penetration of 4D6."

Now, note 2 things:
- the main Armor Penetration roll is a roll of Strength+D6. That's what is being mentioned inside that segment of the rules.
- the rending rule exists OUTSIDE of the Armor Penetration roll, although it does affect that roll.

So, if something says something has an "Armor Penetration of XdX"... what exactly does it mean? Well, IMO (I've said it earlier): you're rolling Armor Penetration of 4D6. Rending is outside the "replacing Armor Penetration value" however, and thus can affect that 4D6 further...

(PS: I seem to remember a GW FAQ regarding Rending and multi-dice Armor Penetration: roll an extra D3 for EACH roll of 6 that came up... can someone find that rule and see if it is still relevant?)

So then the old Turbo-Penetrator did the same thing? Because for some reason, no one ever played it that way.

[SeattleDV8]

From the WH FAQ
"Q. How does the Vindicare’s turbo-penetrator
round work in regards to rending?
A. Because sniper rifles are rending, when rolling
for armour penetration, the Vindicare gets to add
a D3 to the total for each dice that comes up a
six. So, if one of the three dice is a six, the total
penetration would be 6+2D6+D3+3 (giving a
result between 12 and 22); if two were sixes, the
total would be 12+1D6+2D3+3 (18 to 26); if all
three dice were sixes, the total would be
18+3D3+3 (24 to 30!). Almost certainly
enough…"

[Wildcard]

How is the monstrous creature extra armor penetration phrased? I dont have rulebook with me so i cannot check it now..

Is it something along the lines "adds an extra d6 for armor pene.." or " rolls 2d6 for armor pene.." ?

[SeattleDV8]

BRB FAQ
"Q: How does a monstrous creatureʼs 2D6 roll for armour
penetration in close combat work if the creatureʼs Attacks
have the Rending rule as well? (p31)
A: The player gets to add a D3 to the total for each dice
that comes up with a 6. So, if either of the two dice is a
six, the total penetration roll will be 2D6+D3+S; if both
were 6s, the total would be 12+2D3+S (which you donʼt
need to roll anyway, as it is more than enough to penetrate
the thickest armour!)."

[UltramarineFan]

From the WH FAQ
"Q. How does the Vindicare’s turbo-penetrator
round work in regards to rending?
A. Because sniper rifles are rending, when rolling
for armour penetration, the Vindicare gets to add
a D3 to the total for each dice that comes up a
six. So, if one of the three dice is a six, the total
penetration would be 6+2D6+D3+3 (giving a
result between 12 and 22); if two were sixes, the
total would be 12+1D6+2D3+3 (18 to 26); if all
three dice were sixes, the total would be
18+3D3+3 (24 to 30!). Almost certainly
enough…"

SO. By that FAQ we can assume that the RAI for trubo-pentrator is that you roll 4D6 + 3 and for each die that rolls a 6 you roll another D3.

Wow. So it's between 7 and 36..

[wkz]

SO. By that FAQ we can assume that the RAI for trubo-pentrator is that you roll 4D6 + 3 and for each die that rolls a 6 you roll another D3.

Wow. So it's between 7 and 36.....
...
hmmm...
There IS mention of strength in there. Curious.

Seems like we have a winner, courtesy of the Witch Hunter codex. S3+4D6+Rending.
(Can someone actually say if the WH turbopenetrator have the same wording as the GK turbopenetrator? I don't own the WH codex myself.)

[talos]

In the old necron faq it was stated that against the monolith the turbo penetrator rolled just 3D6 not Str3+3D6+rending. So that's my guess of how they are going to faq the tp again. 4D6 for penetration and that's it.

[wkz]

In the old necron faq it was stated that against the monolith the turbo penetrator rolled just 3D6 not Str3+3D6+rending. So that's my guess of how they are going to faq the tp again. 4D6 for penetration and that's it.Except that's in the OLD FAQ... and it no longer exist in Necron's current FAQ.

We now have a clear answer from a newer FAQ (one that is released for 5th Edition in fact), an FAQ entry that is, in fact, for the same unit in question (abet using slightly older Vindicare rules). So, just as Assault Cannons jamming and "move 18", disembark and charge" are gone from the game, your above Intention cannot be used for today's version of RAI for the Turbopenetrator...

[Duncndisorderly]

So at the risk of being flamed for asking a stupid question, my interpretation was as follows;
shield breaker removes invul saves and does no further damage, the target gets nu save against this ammo as its not wound causing, from the next turn that model has no invul saves and only has cover or normal saves so e.g
1. I shoot Darnath Lysander he loses his invul save he gets no saving throw to prevent this
2. next round I shoot him again he only has normal saves if applicable

am i correct in this ?? oh and flame on if you so wish

[Sonikgav]

No youve kinda misunderstood. The shield breaker does wound as a normal shot its just that it has a special effect like all the others. After the target is hit it, roll to wound as normal. If it wounds, the model the wound is allocated to loses any inv save gifted to it by wagear. The wound is then resolved and any applicable saves (cover only really since its AP1) are taken.

Essentially its like having a bullet that ignores wargear inv saves. It just also removes it for the rest of the game.

[Duncndisorderly]

Thanks buddy that helps