CSM Terminators - location of legion insignia?

[mysterex]

I've noticed that all the CSM terminator models I've seen GW produce only have space for the legion symbol on the right shoulder pad and similarly whenever they show painted CSM terminator models if it has a legion/chapter symbol it's on the right.

While this is consistent with loyalist terminators it doesn't make sense to me. For loyalists the Crux Terminatus takes precedence relegating the chapter symbol to the right. However the Crux didn't exist pre-heresy as it supposedly includes a fragment of the Emperor's armour and he was using that until he ascended the Golden Throne.

The other time the legion/chapter symbol ended up on the right is with mark V (heresy) armour where the left pad had reinforcing bolted on - but this doesn't apply for terminator armour.

So does anyone have a good fluff based reason why CSM terminators have their legion symbol on the right?

Just asking because I'm making up some terminators and would prefer to take a consistent approach to the legion/unit insignia that applies across both the tactical and terminator armour units (yes I know they're meant to be "chaotic" ;)).

[Denzark]

TDA was an offshoot from the development of Mk V, as seen in the helmet - possible a hangup from this?

[Corvus-Master-of-The-4th]

Can't you put the Pads (with space for an insignia) on either Arm? D:... So you could have it on the left if you wanted?... Just saying :L

[Thornblood]

So, the real life reason is that Games Workshop created loyalist Terminator Armour (Space Hulk 1989, but stolen from Laserburn- a game older than Rogue Trader which GW owned the rights to), complete with Crux Terminatus before the CSM Terminators, and before the Heresy was fully fluffed out and the sculptors were briefed as fully. This then meant in terms of renegades it was more of a case of captured suits being corrupted- by a sculptor adding horns, trophy racks, evil looking stuff and a trim with an obsession with arrows. Basically its because loyalist terminators are copies of models older than Warhammer 40k, and Chaos Termies didn't turn up for ten years later, after the invention of Rogue Trader.

At the invention of CSMs, all were previously Crimson Fists, Camoflague pattern marines or something that later became the White Scars; few chapters existed back then. White Dwarf 93 was the turning point where GW stopped supporting Dungeons and Dragons and focussed their efforts at Warhammer and Rogue Trader, including about fifty new colour schemes for marines. So Chaos Marines were all one of these few original chapters and then turned traitor, with no traitor legions appearing on the scene fluff wise until about 2nd edition. So the Crux Terminatus would need to be corrupted on each model.

As far as GW's new canonized fluff goes, we have yet to see post heresy suits be invented in the Horus Heresy series- everyone is still walking around with pre heresy Terminator armour, which is mostly just shoulderpads and Grey knight style heads, which in real life were invented after the post heresy suits (very confusing). So as of yet, and indeed, within the next four years we cannot expect a good answer.

But Denzarks answer was good for fluff!

[Psychosplodge]

TDA was an offshoot from the development of Mk V, as seen in the helmet - possible a hangup from this?

But wasn't Mk V developed by the loyalists during the heresy and the reinforcement studs being required due to substandard materials, and wasn't TDA in use pre-heresy?
Theoretically shouldn't the traitors mostly be Mk II-IV?

And OT in reality lazy model making and lack of thought

[Denzark]

I am regretably referring to the original fluff for armour which appeared in WD 129 if I remember. This was when the GW stated they felt that superhuman marines had fallend behind and amended the stat of T from 3 to 4 to represent effect of black crapace with armour - it might have gone to 3+ save at this time too.

I believe the Mk V had either smooth pads or even studs on both shoulders and lower legs. The Mk VI (beaky) was the first to have the left shoulder studs as reinforcement. I understand that Mars was overthrown (according to this fluff) before all loyalist legions had received Mk VI and supply lines were cut. So actually excepting the legions on Earth (Scars fists and BloodAngels) it was traitors who had newer marks until after the retreat from earth and the recapture of Mars.

Psychosplodge it is a tad harsh to call lack of thought and lazy modelling when the poster is trying to give logic to things - research prior to action is hardly lazy.

In reality the only traitors where logic may apply is immediately pre-heresy, pre-mutation so you can probably stick insignia where you please.

[Psychosplodge]

I meant on the designers part, they probably worked off the imperial frames, and didn't consider the crux terminatus and the post heresy origins,

not having a go at the player/gamer at all, and my fluff knowledge doesn't go quite that far back lol,

Although you could be clearly delusional having mis-located god's county....;)

[Denzark]

My bad - fair one on the designers. As to Gods's county, all our borders have signs up stating that Norfolk is Nelson's County. I would remind you of the 13000 odd french and spanish killed wounded or captured in one glorious day at Trafalgar - clearly blessed by the good Lord!

[Psychosplodge]

But it's not Yorkshire is it
lol

[mysterex]

Thanks for the background and design comments. It's pretty much as I suspected but it's good to have it confirmed by people with access to the older history of the game.

cheers

[Gotthammer]

TDA was an offshoot from the development of Mk V, as seen in the helmet - possible a hangup from this?

Actually, Mr 'zark, it's the other way around - Mk V was developed using older (pre-mk IV) tech, but the helmet was a spin off from the terminator design project, presumably as it was superior to the Mk II/III helm, but more rugged and easier to maintain than the IV.

MkV armour had the left shoulder studded like Mk VI.



Basically its because loyalist terminators are copies of models older than Warhammer 40k, and Chaos Termies didn't turn up for ten years later, after the invention of Rogue Trader.

At the invention of CSMs, all were previously Crimson Fists, Camoflague pattern marines or something that later became the White Scars; few chapters existed back then. White Dwarf 93 was the turning point where GW stopped supporting Dungeons and Dragons and focussed their efforts at Warhammer and Rogue Trader, including about fifty new colour schemes for marines. So Chaos Marines were all one of these few original chapters and then turned traitor, with no traitor legions appearing on the scene fluff wise until about 2nd edition. So the Crux Terminatus would need to be corrupted on each model.

This is so very, very wrong.

Space Hulk was released June 89, a month after the metal Terminators (which are nothing like Laserburn minis, they recycled the 'dreadnought' part of the name). The Chaos Terminators came out not long after, might have been as late as 1990, but definately before 91 - that's three and a bit years after Rogue Trader was realeased.
They came out before any other armour marks had been designed, so shared the common blank right shoulder, decorated left look of all standard power armours (they had the 8 pointed star in place of the crux).

At this point in the backstory, all Terminators wore the Crux Terminatus - it is a badge of honour and a medal after all, a display of being a hardarse (ergo why vet's wear the Crux: it show's you're hard enough to wear Tact Dread Armour, but don't necissarily do it), but Terminator Captains only had a sliver of the Emperor's armour implanted in theirs after the Heresy. This was done in recognition of the Terminator squad who interrupted the Emp's fight with Horus.
This has all been retconned so makes no sense now though.

Not long after this, the 'old' armour varients were released along with Mk VII, with the explaination that the traitors captured loads of Mk VI / VII during the heresy and upgraded all their forces, explaining the lack of old marks amongst them.


The Realm of Chaos books came out in October 88, and have army lists for the Traitor Legions. Furthermore, Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus were all about the Horus Heresy, the interlegionary war and include masses of info about the traitors. Both were published in 89, AT in January.

[Denzark]

Ha - just dug up the old W40k compilation which had the article in. Gotty you have it spot on!

[Gotthammer]

Is it a good or bad thing that I didn't need to look it up? :D

[Psychosplodge]

Is it a good or bad thing that I didn't need to look it up? :D

Yes.