Starter Grey Knight List, 1750

[Col_Festus]

Hey guys, I've been going back and forth on lists the past couple of days and finally (sort of) decided on one. I wanted to get some feedback from some MEQ players before I went ahead and put this in motion. I'm coming from an IG background and wanted something a bit more elite and fun to play. The only restrictions I gave myself is that I'd like to keep it as pure (GK only) as possible. We will see how this goes in the end tho... so here is the list so far.

Grey Knight Grand Master - 200
- Pysbolt ammo
- Rad Grenades
- Master Crafted Nemesis Force Sword

10 x Grey Knight Strike Squad - 295
- Pysbolt Ammo
- 2x Pyscannons
- Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Rhino w/ Dozer blade

10 x Grey Knight Strike Squad - 295
- Pysbolt Ammo
- 2x Pyscannons
- Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Rhino w/ Dozer blade

10 x Grey Knight Strike Squad - 295
- Pysbolt Ammo
- 2x Pyscannons
- Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Rhino w/ Dozer blade

5 x Grey Knight Terminators - 230
- Incinerator
- Justicar w/Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Psybolt Ammo

Storm Raven - 205
- TL Melta
- TL Lascannon

Nemesis Dreadknight - 230
- Nemesis Force Great Sword
- Personal Teleporter


So the idea here is to use the Grand Master to scout as many of the GK units in Rhinos as I can across the board. I turbo boost the storm raven and then bring in the Nemesis dreadknight with the TP homer. So the enemy should have the storm raven, terminators, grand master, and Dreadknight in their face pretty quickly with 3 rhinos packed full of GKs right behind to hold objectives etc.

My concerns with the list is the dreadknight, im debating dropping the personal teleporter on it to give it a mr. hellhound weapon so when he deep strikes he isn't sitting in the wind for a turn. The other idea was to swap him out for a venerable dreadnaught to go in the storm raven with psyflame, and multimelta upgrade (dual purpose infantry or mech killer). I have to check the rules, but can the dreadnaught assault out of the storm raven as well or only infantry hes transporting? Any feed back would be appreciated, I tried to put as many boots as possible on the table in 1750.

[Lemt]

The Grand Master kind of feels wasted here. Part of his value is making things scoring, and other than the dreadknight you've got nothing. I'd Go for a Librarian for the powers, or a Champion if you want to save some points. If you go for a champion and shave some points you could play a Vindicare Assassin.

[Col_Festus]

The Grand Master kind of feels wasted here. Part of his value is making things scoring, and other than the dreadknight you've got nothing. I'd Go for a Librarian for the powers, or a Champion if you want to save some points. If you go for a champion and shave some points you could play a Vindicare Assassin.

well the reason I took him was for scouting actually, not scoring.

[Lemt]

well, why not go all the way? Swap a GKSS for some Interceptors or Purifiers. Or even a second Dreadknight. That'll still leave you with 3 troops (5 if combat squaded), and can add some extra oomph to the list.

Not that there's anything wrong with the list. GKSS's are good.

[dethangel]

i like the list. i think its a very defensive but with all the SS, i think the SR and DK are kinda out of place un less you take a squad of purifiers. you could swap out the SR for a LR and the DK for a Dakka Dred (2x TLAC and Psyammo) that would give you some needed long range support, and land raiders are harder to kill.

[Col_Festus]

Thanks for the feedback guys. The idea behind the dreadknight, termies, and SR is for them to turbo charge, and then teleport him with the teleport homer and cut off the enemies back field from their forward elements, leaving them to face the mounted GK squads alone. By the time the enemy deals with the attack element of the army the squads should have roll over objectives, or destroyed most of the forward elements. At least in theory ;)

[Col_Festus]

I took some of the suggestions into considerations and changed it to the follow:

Grey Knight Grand Master - 200
- Pysbolt ammo
- Rad Grenades
- Master Crafted Nemesis Force Sword

10 x Grey Knight Strike Squad - 295
- Pysbolt Ammo
- 2x Pyscannons
- Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Rhino w/ Dozer blade

10 x Grey Knight Strike Squad - 295
- Pysbolt Ammo
- 2x Pyscannons
- Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Rhino w/ Dozer blade

10 x Grey Knight Strike Squad - 295
- Pysbolt Ammo
- 2x Pyscannons
- Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Rhino w/ Dozer blade

10 x Purifiers - 288
- 9 Nemesis Force Halbs
- 1x Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer, Master Crafted
- Pysbolt Ammo

Storm Raven - 205
- TL Melta
- TL Lascannon

Dreadnought - 135
2x TL autocannons
Pysbolt Ammo

This puts me at 1,713 points. Anyone reccomend where I should spend the remaining 37 points? I could always upgrade the Dread to a venerable and send him in with the storm raven, give him a multi melta, heavy flamer, and pysflame ammo. Just thinking aloud here. What do you guys think?

[elmir]

psychotroke grenades for the GM.

I'd also put an extra hammer into the purifier unit (and perhaps a single incinerator, although their psychic power might already be enough to handle hordes).

If you are still short on points, searchlights could prove to be handy for your rhinos.

On a sidenote, I'd keep the TL assault cannon on the stormraven en lieu of the TL lascannons. Looks like your'll be using that vehicle more as an agressive transport, and the asscannon tends to win out over the lascannon in those situations.

[isotope99]

I'd switch out the psybolts for an incinerator on the GM, bargain at 5 points.

[dethangel]

psychotroke grenades for the GM.

I'd also put an extra hammer into the purifier unit (and perhaps a single incinerator, although their psychic power might already be enough to handle hordes).

If you are still short on points, searchlights could prove to be handy for your rhinos.

On a sidenote, I'd keep the TL assault cannon on the stormraven en lieu of the TL lascannons. Looks like your'll be using that vehicle more as an agressive transport, and the asscannon tends to win out over the lascannon in those situations.

i think your purifiers are fine the way they are. just remember if you take any heavy weapons you lose PW attacks.
definatly take tha psychotroke grenades for the GM.
the problem i have with the TLAC on the SR is, if your faced with any AV14 vehicals you only have a 3%(6% with psyammo) chance at 24" to pen it. where as with a TLLC has a 16.6% chance at 48" to pen. not the greatest of chances, but better. combine with the TLMM's glance only at 24" and 50% chance at 12" to pen.
i think since they cost the same, so you could swap them out for any given game if needed.
and how about hunter killers for the rhinos. it could add just a little more anti-tank to the list.

[DarkLink]

I don't know where you got your numbers from. A TLAC will cause 0.395 penetrating hits on AV14 on average. A TLLC only causes 0.148. On top of that, a TLAC has a decent chance of doing significantly better than that. You can cause multiple damage rolls with a TLAC. A TLLC can only ever do one damage result max.

TLAC is significantly better than a TLLC against AV14. The only downside is the shorter range, which I don't think is a big disadvantage with the storm raven.

[isotope99]

I don't know where you got your numbers from. A TLAC will cause 0.395 penetrating hits on AV14 on average. A TLLC only causes 0.148. On top of that, a TLAC has a decent chance of doing significantly better than that. You can cause multiple damage rolls with a TLAC. A TLLC can only ever do one damage result max.

TLAC is significantly better than a TLLC against AV14. The only downside is the shorter range, which I don't think is a big disadvantage with the storm raven.

That's based on taking psybolts I think, which cost an extra 20 points. With regular AC, the average is half that. Still better though.

The main point that I didn't realise when I converted mine is that the missiles are S4 blast so fit better with the ACs.

[DarkLink]

Oh, yeah, got my numbers mixed up. Yes, .395 pens is with psybolts. Without then it's .193 pens, which is still better than a lascannon.

Incidentally, those are expected outcomes, not probabilities. If you want the actual odds, it's quite a bit trickier to calculate the probability of getting at least one penetrating hit on a Land Raider, but I'd done the math a while back for psycannons.

TL Lascannon- 14.8% chance of penetrating.

TL Psycannon- 26.5% chance of getting one or more penetrating hits.

TL Assault Cannon-14.0% chance of getting one or more penetrating hits.



So a TL Assault Cannon has basically the same odds of getting one or more penetrating hits (don't forget you can score multiple pens, though the odds are fairly low) as the TL Lascannon has of getting a single penetrating hit.

So within 24" a TL Assault Cannon and a TL lascannon are pretty much the same against AV 14, while the assault cannon is better against lower armor values. The only real advantage the TL lascannon has is its 48" range.

[Col_Festus]

Ok here is the final version of the list. After a little help from Goatboy, and you guys here on the thread I think I got things put together the way I want them. At least until I get a bunch of play testing under my belt. Here is the final versions.

Grey Knight Grand Master - 190
- Rad Grenades

10 x Grey Knight Strike Squad - 295
- Pysbolt Ammo
- 2x Pyscannons
- Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Rhino w/ Dozer blade

10 x Grey Knight Strike Squad - 295
- Pysbolt Ammo
- 2x Pyscannons
- Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Rhino w/ Dozer blade

10 x Grey Knight Strike Squad - 295
- Pysbolt Ammo
- 2x Pyscannons
- Justicar w/ Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- Rhino w/ Dozer blade

10 x Purifiers - 279
- 7 Nemesis Force Halbs
- 1x Nemesis Force Daemon Hammer
- 2x Incinerators
- Pysbolt Ammo

Storm Raven - 206
- Searchlight
- TL Melta
- TL Lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought - 190
- Multimelta
- Heavy Flamer
- Pysflame Ammo

total: 1750

I ended up going with the incinerators on the Purifiers to free up the 4 points I needed to get the pysflame ammo on the dread. Also threw the 1 point search light on the storm raven just to fill out that 1 point. Thanks for the help guys! Easy tweaks to change up the way the list plays will be swapping out the chapter master for a libby in the future.

[dethangel]

I don't know where you got your numbers from. A TLAC will cause 0.395 penetrating hits on AV14 on average. A TLLC only causes 0.148. On top of that, a TLAC has a decent chance of doing significantly better than that. You can cause multiple damage rolls with a TLAC. A TLLC can only ever do one damage result max.

TLAC is significantly better than a TLLC against AV14. The only downside is the shorter range, which I don't think is a big disadvantage with the storm raven.

1/6th of 100% =16.6%= lascannon rolling pen on av14 per hit @up to48"
the lascannon has a 1 in 6 to pen and 1 in 6 to glance. thats 33.3% chance of doing something to av14

1/6th of 100% =16.6%= rend (score12) the second roll now has a 2/3rds or 66.66666% chance to pen av14. 2/3rds of 16.6% =11.10666% chance to pen. per hit @up to 24"
the assault cannon has 1 in 10 to pen and if the AC does not rend, then you have a 0% chance of doing anything to av13 or14.
now a psybolt AC is a little better at a 16.6% to pen or glance

[DarkLink]

Ah, ok. Your lascannon numbers are correct, but your TL Assault cannons are not. Though you should take BS into consideration even though both weapons are TL BS4. Just multiply your numbers by 8/9 and we're on the same page.


The (8/9)*(1/6)=.1666 stuff doesn't actually give the % chance of hitting. It gives you the average outcome. Now, if you only have a single shot weapon like a lascannon, then the average outcome is the same as the odds of success.

However, if you have a multi-shot weapon, you can't just use 4*(8/9)*(1/6)*(1/3)=.19753 to find the odds of getting a penetrating hit. In this case, your expected outcome of .19753 penetrating hits is not the same thing as the odds of causing one or more penetrating hits.

Note that I say "one or more". That's the reason you can't use the expected average. You have the potential for multiple pens, and the order in which you hit and miss and penetrate end up mattering. You have to use a binomial probability function. Here's the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_probability


Use the formula given there, and you can find the odds of getting a given number of successes (e.g. odds of getting exactly two penetrating hits, or one pen, or zero). In this case, find the odds of getting zero pens, which is about .86. Subtract that from one, and you've got the odds of causing one or more pens (.14).

Incidentally, if you use the formula for binomial probability to solve for the lascannon, then a bunch of stuff cancels out and leaves you with the exact same equation as the expected outcome equation.




I'll also note that probability is not given in percentage. The probability of something happening is always a number between 0 and 1, always. You can convert to percentage later, but a lot of statistics formulas don't work if you try and use percentages.