the summoning and teleport homer?

[Sinistermind]

just looking for clarification, the summoning doesnt scatter if the libby has a tele homer right???

ok and to just get this straightened out psyker mastery 2 allows 2 powers in my turn(move,shoot,assualt) and two in the opponents ??? just not two in the same phase? aka hammerhand and forceweapon?

[Bean]

The Summoning doesn't benefit from a teleport homer. Teleport homers only affect Strike Squads, Interceptor Squads, and models in Terminator Armor which teleport onto the battlefield via deep strike. Being affected by The Summoning isn't teleporting onto the field via deepstrike

A Librarian with Mastery 2 can use two powers in each player's turn, and there's no rule against them being used in the same phase. A librarian can't use two psychic shooting attacks in a turn, because he can only shoot one weapon, but other powers (like Hammerhand and Force Weapon) can be used in the same phase.

[dannyat2460]

you are correct

[Thiazi]

Do units scatter when summoned with the summoning? The rule states they are "placed using the deep strike rules". I took this to mean no scatter, but cant assasult or move.

[Hive Mind]

Yes, if they don't roll a hit on the scatter dice, p95 of the Rulebook.

Why wouldn't they scatter?

[Thiazi]

because of the word "placed" i have learned that keywords like that tend to take precedence over other rules.

[Hive Mind]

Seems like a stretch to me. Using the DS rules you "place one model" then roll the scatter dice.

[Thiazi]

using summonings rules you place the entire unit, not just one model. so its not just the normal DS rules in effect here.

[Hive Mind]

DSing Terminators or jump infantry moves the entire unit too. To me, because it says "using the DS rules" that means you... use the DS rules.

If it's not "the normal DS rules" then what's the rationale for saying that they can't assault or move? I see no logic in embracing some aspects of the DS rules and arbitrarily dismissing another.

[dethangel]

i believe that the "summoned" unit is Placed (no scatter) within 6" of the libby from there they follow the DS rules for setting up the models and they can't move or assault that turn. as if they deepstriked.
at least thats the intent i see for it. if the unit scattered the power would be worthless IMO.

[Hive Mind]

I'm reading The Summoning rules right now and it doesn't say anything about not scattering. It says use the DS rules. The DS rules say place a model and then roll a scatter dice.

I'm open to them not scattering, but the rules don't read that way. IMO of course.

[dethangel]

I'm reading The Summoning rules right now and it doesn't say anything about not scattering. It says use the DS rules. The DS rules say place a model and then roll a scatter dice.

I'm open to them not scattering, but the rules don't read that way. IMO of course.

the rules for DS also say that the DSunit MUST be placed in reserve. but the summoned unit is already on the field. so there is a big part of the DS rule that doesn't apply.
i really wish GW would better clearify there rules. i would talk over some of these iffy rules with your opponant and come to an agreement about it. until this gets FAQ'd it could go eather way.

[Hive Mind]

the rules for DS also say that the DSunit MUST be placed in reserve. but the summoned unit is already on the field. so there is a big part of the DS rule that doesn't apply.
i really wish GW would better clearify there rules. i would talk over some of these iffy rules with your opponant and come to an agreement about it. until this gets FAQ'd it could go eather way.

Indeed. However, that's neither here nor there. Codex rules take precedence and The Summoning rules say it can be used on a "unit... anywhere on the battlefield". Once the unit to be summoned is selected you place them within 6" of the witch, sorry, psyker using the DS rules from p95 of the Rulebook. Which means you place one model from the unit and then roll the scatter dice.

There is literally no indication that the unit doesn't scatter. None at all.

[Kawauso]

the rules for DS also say that the DSunit MUST be placed in reserve. but the summoned unit is already on the field. so there is a big part of the DS rule that doesn't apply.
i really wish GW would better clearify there rules. i would talk over some of these iffy rules with your opponant and come to an agreement about it. until this gets FAQ'd it could go eather way.

By that logic a Necron Lord using the Veil of Darkness to 'teleport' a unit and himself across the board doesn't scatter, since it's worded the same way.

I think you're being a little ridiculous about this.

It follows the DS rules. This includes scatter.

[dethangel]

well it only follows part of the rule.
if they just wrote "place unit within 6" of libby,roll to scatter and unit may not assault this turn". then we would not be having this conversation. if they made rules more comprehensive and took out the 'what if factor' it would make the game a little easer to play.
well eather way, just the fact that you cant assault that turn means i will not use the summoning power. nevermind if it scatters or not.

[Hive Mind]

well it only follows part of the rule.
if they just wrote "place unit within 6" of libby,roll to scatter and unit may not assault this turn". then we would not be having this conversation. if they made rules more comprehensive and took out the 'what if factor' it would make the game a little easer to play.
well eather way, just the fact that you cant assault that turn means i will not use the summoning power. nevermind if it scatters or not.

If people followed what the rules actually said rather than what they want them to say we wouldn't be having this conversation. They don't need to write that ^ in The Summoning rules because it's included in the DS rules.

I repeat, there is no basis in the rules to a claim that a summoned unit does not scatter. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. It isn't 'iffy' and it isn't a grey area. You use the DS rules to place the unit within 6" of the psyker. The DS rules say to place one model and then roll a scatter dice. It's completely black and white.

[xomntec]

My interpretation is that the unit will scatter. The description for teleport homers are pretty clear when they say that "Note that the teleport homer only works for units that are teleporting, not for units entering play using jump packs, drop pods, or other means of transportation" (Source: Codex Space Marines....which is the only source I have handy)

If the wording is consistent in Codex Grey Knights, then I think the Summoning psychic power falls pretty clearly under "other means of transportation".

I think the issue might be that in common language teleportation covers a lot of different situations (Veil of Darkness, Gate, dropping you Land Raider from a Thunderhawk, Webway Portals, whatever Demons do) but in the 40k universe seems to refer to a specific type of technology.

[Xas]

I guess half the people genuinely missed the reason WHY the OP assumes the unit does not scatter:

teleport homer.


summoning makes you deepstrike the unit (with all its problems like no assoult, scatter, probably misshaps, dangerous terrain checks).

teleport homers stop scatter for a special type of deepstrike which is directly listed (basically everything in the codex that isnt a vehicle is listed).



as with the plasma syphon the actual declaration which deepstrikes are affected is howering in thin air (aka "fluff territory").


do you see the summoning as a power that opens up a warp corridor to the librarian and teleports the unit to him?

do you see it as summoning a giant flying grey toad that lifts the unit in question and tosses it at the librarian?

not even the fuff text for summoning says anything about the nature of the transport.



I myself see it as teleportation (cause its cooler than giant flying grey toads tossing marines around) and therefor allways grab a homer if i buy the power.

I can however accept if people only allow the units listed under the GK teleport homer entry to not scatter (meaning: vehicles, assasins and inqusitors/henchmen scatter, rest does not).



teleport homers stopping scatter is as much a part of deepstriking as is the scatter itself and not beeing able to assoult after it. if you want to argue that it is a "deepstrike but kinda not deepstrike" and cherry pick that my homers do not work but all the other deepstrike rules stay in effect then we'll have to dice off and if I win the die roll I'm gona cherry pick that I only follow the rule about placing units in a circle (meaning nothing scatters and I'll assoult you afterwards).

[Hive Mind]

I guess half the people genuinely missed the reason WHY the OP assumes the unit does not scatter.

Or we weren't responding to the OP. I wasn't.

Whether a Homer means they don't scatter might be up for interpretation but I still think it's pretty clear that a Homer has no effect on whether they scatter or not. Homers only work for the type of DS that represents a model or unit arriving on the battlefield from orbit IMO. Anything else requires some fairly severe bending of the background.

Though having said that Knights SS squads have no apparent method of DSing but they still can.

[Bean]

The issue with the teleport homer does revolve around whether the Summoning constitutes teleportation. There is no rules text which says that it does, so, by the rules, it does not.

As for fluff, it might or it might not, but frankly, it's not relevant as a fluff issue. The fluff for the teleport homer itself makes it clear that only teleports from an orbiting craft benefit from the teleport homer. Read it--it's pretty clear.

There isn't really any good reason to think that The Summoning benefits from a teleport homer.

[dethangel]

If people followed what the rules actually said rather than what they want them to say we wouldn't be having this conversation. They don't need to write that ^ in The Summoning rules because it's included in the DS rules.

I repeat, there is no basis in the rules to a claim that a summoned unit does not scatter. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. It isn't 'iffy' and it isn't a grey area. You use the DS rules to place the unit within 6" of the psyker. The DS rules say to place one model and then roll a scatter dice. It's completely black and white.

and there is no unequivicable proof that it will eather.
first half of the rule says all deepstrike units MUST BE PLACED IN RESERVE and each turn they must be rolled for. i think we can agree that this part doesn't apply. right?
now if the unit scatters and inevetably deep strike misshaps. what happens on a roll of 3-4 does your opponent get to place your unit out of range of the libby. the rule says it must be placed with-in 6".
what happens on a roll of 5-6. the unit was never in reserve so what happens then? the psy test was passed. the power has been used. sooo.?? what you keep rerolling until the unit dies? does nothing happen?
but its all black and white to you right. so what happens?
and you really think there are no What-ifs? :rolleyes:
the point is, GW could have better defined the ruling of the psypower(like i already said) than using undefined parts of a special RESERVE RULE. which IMO is really a poor choise. as it makes this psypower worthless.it is lazy work on there part.

i think that servo-skull would be your best bet to limit scatter if it applies.

[Hive Mind]

and there is no unequivicable proof that it will eather.
first half of the rule says all deepstrike units MUST BE PLACED IN RESERVE and each turn they must be rolled for. i think we can agree that this part doesn't apply. right?
now if the unit scatters and inevetably deep strike misshaps. what happens on a roll of 3-4 does your opponent get to place your unit out of range of the libby. the rule says it must be placed with-in 6".
what happens on a roll of 5-6. the unit was never in reserve so what happens then? the psy test was passed. the power has been used. sooo.?? what you keep rerolling until the unit dies? does nothing happen?
but its all black and white to you right. so what happens?
and you really think there are no What-ifs? :rolleyes:.

No, there are no what-ifs at all and it is black and white if you simply apply the rules rather than try and make them say what you want them to. Using the DS rules to place the unit, which lets not forget the rules for The Summoning tell us to, you place one model from the unit to be summoned. The Summoning introduces an additional caveat that this solo model must be placed within 6" of the psyker. I see no problem with then scattering outside that 6" bubble or mishaps since scatter and mishaps are part of the DS rules that you're told to use. Did I mention that the rules for The Summoning explicitly tell you to USE THE DS RULES to place the unit?

Since a 1-2 mishap result lists numerous, though strictly obiter, scenarios for why a DSing unit might be destroyed then a 5-6 result simply means that the power doesn't work and the unit is placed back where it was. There are other powers that can result in no game effect after a successful PoW test, Hell Fire springs to mind so it's not without precedent. Such are the vagaries of the warp, a notoriously unreliable element of the 40k universe.

[Hive Mind]

Interesting to note that the rules for placing the Callidus Assassin say that she is "...placed anywhere... using the Deep Strike rules, but does not scatter."

My emphasis.